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Author Topic: The Road Map is being torn
RookieActivist
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posted 10 June 2003 06:47 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Tuesday's attack began when three Israeli Apache helicopter gunships appeared over Gaza City before lunchtime and fired at least seven missiles toward Mr. Rantisi's Jeep Pajero in a crowded thoroughfare. The vehicle burst into flames and was quickly reduced to a scorched heap of metal.

Palestinian doctors said two bystanders were killed, including an eight-year-old girl. Mr. Rantisi was injured in the right leg, and was undergoing surgery at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital.

In all, 27 people were wounded, including three of Mr. Rantisi's bodyguards and Mr. Rantisi's son, said Dr. Moawiya Hassanain, director of Shifa Hospital. Three of the wounded were in critical condition.

Hundreds of Hamas supporters rushed to the hospital, chanting "Jihad will continue." Dozens of Hamas gunmen fired in the air.


Hamas leader wounded in Israeli attack

This road map is being torn by two groups that have each gabbed an edge and are pulling on it. Like two children, both sides will argue over who's fault it was after it rips.


From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 June 2003 06:52 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm and the fact that four Israeli soldiers were killed in a terrorist attack praised by Hamas as proof that they will not abide by Abu Mazen's request to halt attacks is not important?

New York Times

[ 10 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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WingNut
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posted 10 June 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe you missed this part mishei:
quote:
This road map is being torn by two groups

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 10 June 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are not at all addressing the issue. You have blinders on to any criticism of Israeli policy. I clearly stated that I think Hamas is responsible for the violence in Israel, but just because they are responsible does not free Israel of any responsibility. Firing missiles at a car in a crowded neighbourhood is just as reckless as Palestinian gunmen firing on Israelis.
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Mishei
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posted 10 June 2003 09:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rookie, just out of curiosity what would you have Israel do when they are attacked by these thugs?
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WingNut
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posted 10 June 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's reverse the situation: Jews are imprisoned in a huge camp with a wall being erected. Their leadership is targetted for assisination. They are herded into smaller and smaller enclaves as their land is stolen. Their homes and orchards are bulldozed leaving them homelss and impovershed. They suffer from malnutrition and a lack of clean water while their tormenters lounge in swimming pools. Their children are shot dead. Their men and women brutalized and humiliated for sport. What would you have those Jews do, Mishei?
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SHH
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posted 10 June 2003 10:04 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can I answer? I’d get a grip and realize that the right of return was a zero possibility and my tormentors were here to stay. I’d also notice that when it comes to violence and the use of force, that we’re losing big-time…it ain’t working. Ergo, I’d stop the violence and cut the best deal I could. I’d sign the document, and move on towards a life some might call normal. It’s got to better than this.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 June 2003 10:53 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I’d get a grip...

That's what you say, from where you're sitting.


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SHH
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posted 10 June 2003 11:27 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's the best I can do. Forever the pragmatist; my original sin.
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WingNut
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posted 10 June 2003 11:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SHH:
Can I answer? I’d get a grip and realize that the right of return was a zero possibility and my tormentors were here to stay. I’d also notice that when it comes to violence and the use of force, that we’re losing big-time…it ain’t working. Ergo, I’d stop the violence and cut the best deal I could. I’d sign the document, and move on towards a life some might call normal. It’s got to better than this.
Really? So what would you have told the Jews in Warsaw?

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Mishei
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posted 10 June 2003 11:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Wing we were doing so well...alas it's like a fetish here sometimes ..just can't help trying to find some way to inject Holocaust imagery into the Israeli Palestinian issue.
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skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well -- as the report in this a.m.'s Grope seemed to recognize, even Dubya is conceding that there is a difference in Abbas's position re Hamas and Sharon's decision to send in assassins.

The PA is in tatters. Abbas is hardly in control, and the rebuilding of the PA is going to take some time. If the road map is to have any chance, all parties have to recognize that fact.

But an (incompetent) IDF strike: no question who is responsible for that.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 11 June 2003 11:07 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei: Because it's one of the most effective and obvious ways of showing that supporters of Israel suffer from an inconsistent position.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 11 June 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's reverse the situation: Jews are imprisoned in a huge camp with a wall being erected. Their leadership is targetted for assisination. They are herded into smaller and smaller enclaves as their land is stolen. Their homes and orchards are bulldozed leaving them homelss and impovershed. They suffer from malnutrition and a lack of clean water while their tormenters lounge in swimming pools. Their children are shot dead. Their men and women brutalized and humiliated for sport. What would you have those Jews do, Mishei?

Let's try asking the question another way : Jews start blowing up palestinians in buses, discos and pizza parlors, just because they're arab. Palestinians start to crack down on the jews because they see the jewish leadership not doing anything to stop the attacks. They only see the leadership encourage it. So the palestinians decide to build a wall to try to keep out the jewish terrorists. They also bulldoze the homes of jewish suicide bombers to discourage such acts. The jews suffer from malnutrition and a lack of clean water while their leadership rolls around in hundreds of millions of dollars. Jewish children are shot dead because the terrorists like to hide and conduct their operations in the middle of civilian neighbourhoods. What would you have those jews do, Mishei ?


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, Ray ... I think there's something you're missing here ...

The situation you've just described is not the reverse. It is mainly the situation of the Palestinians. Except for the discos and pizzerias (can Palestinians afford discos and pizzerias?), you're describing the situation of the Palestinians, not the Israelis.

Consider a course in Jonathan Swift 101. Satire is a demanding form. We are not all of us as gifted as Wingy. I know that I certainly am not. And now I'm pretty sure about you.


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Briguy
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posted 11 June 2003 11:24 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is quite sad that neither group can grasp the fact that there are thugs on both sides. The IDF reaction to the Hamas action targetted civilians (rocket attacks into crowded areas have known consequences; innocent people will die). Hamas is no better, because they have a history of attacking civilians...this attack on military personel cannot be looked at in isolation. Hey, lookie, we're back to square one! Both sides have extremist elements - more accurately extremely racist elements - who are willing to kill anyone to make a point. Both sides have to control (and preferably punish) the extremists if there can be any hope for peace. Neither side has started doing that yet. My hope factor for this road map dwindles every week.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 11 June 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Um, Ray ... I think there's something you're missing here ...

The situation you've just described is not the reverse.


I didn't say anything about it being reverse. I said....

quote:
Let's try asking the question another way

Wingnut wants to reverse the situation between the jews and palestinians, I was just trying to make it more accurate.

quote:
Consider a course in Jonathan Swift 101. Satire is a demanding form. We are not all of us as gifted as Wingy. I know that I certainly am not. And now I'm pretty sure about you.

Consider a course in reading and comprehension.

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Ray Peterson ]


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Mandos
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posted 11 June 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh-oh. skdadl's been asked to take a course in reading and comprehension. I am waiting for the mushroom cloud.

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


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Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 12:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas terrorists blow men, women and children to bits.

Suicide bomber murders innocents on Jerusalem bus


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Mandos
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posted 11 June 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here we go again.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Oh Wing we were doing so well...alas it's like a fetish here sometimes ..just can't help trying to find some way to inject Holocaust imagery into the Israeli Palestinian issue.

I knew you would object Mishei, but SHH clearly made an argument that might makes right and I am interested if his argument applies to all situations where one power oppresses a people or just the Israeli people oppressing the Palestinian people.

Now maybe you could answer the quuestion?

As for Ray Peterson, should the Jews in your question, after being forced off their lands and into refugee camps, accept their fate? Or would you have them behave as did the Stern Gang?

I just read your linked story, mishei. The tragedy continues.

Could I make an observation, though? Maybe I am wrong, but every time there appears to be progeress on peace, Israelis make a high profile attempt at assasinating someone within Hamas which leads to a bombing which leads to helicopter assualts.

Why initiate the predictable carnage unless derailing any peace effort is the intended purpose?

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
Uh-oh. skdadl's been asked to take a course in reading and comprehension. I am waiting for the mushroom cloud.


Why, thank you, Mandos. I call that RESPECT.

I love courses in reading and comprehension. I taught them for some years, y'know, and really loved them. Please forgive the drift.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 June 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's the best I can do. Forever the pragmatist; my original sin.

It's easy to claim "pragmatism" when you're safe and have nothing at stake in the issue.

If the US, for instance, had not gone hysterical and gone on a bombing rampage in the orient following September 11, but had followed a rational, pragmatic approach (reconsidering its military presence in Saudi Arabia, ending its arms welfare to Israel, ending its support to autocratic Arab governments, ending sanctions against Iraq and supporting democratic movements in the Middle East are all pragmatic ideas, in my view), it may have retained international sympathy following the WTC attack.


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Briguy
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posted 11 June 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guardian link

The cycle continues. I see that the IDF has already retaliated in kind, if not quantity.

ABC news story


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 12:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Hmm and the fact that four Israeli soldiers were killed in a terrorist attack praised by Hamas as proof that they will not abide by Abu Mazen's request to halt attacks is not important?

New York Times

[ 10 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


It's very important in that it shows the utter absurdity of your position - a SOLDIER involved in an ILLEGAL OCCUPATION killed is not a victim of 'terrorism'. He is an unfortunate (and expected) victim of a political policy of which he is only a tool. Your trapsing along with the Israeli Ministry of Info spin on this tells us all we need to know about your position.


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Ray Peterson
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posted 11 June 2003 12:49 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hopes for the peace process faltered Tuesday after an Israel a helicopter strike aimed at Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantissi, a move which drew criticism from the United States and the Palestinian Authority, and prompted threats of revenge from the militant Islamic group.

What ? No mention of the 4 Israeli soldiers killed at a checkpoint ? Before the helicopter strike ?


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Mandos
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posted 11 June 2003 12:52 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They're occupying soldiers at a checkpoint. It's sad they got killed, but it was the IDF that put them in harms way (by occupying). The occupier gets far less sympathy from me than the occupied.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 12:52 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Rookie, just out of curiosity what would you have Israel do when they are attacked by these thugs?

Stop the occupation, the settlement building, the checkpoints, the water theft, the bulldozing of houses and businesses, etc.

Maybe admit that ethnic cleansing of millions of people was a bad idea and take some responsibility for the mess they put themselves in rather than blame it entirely on the radicalised element of an impoverished, occupied, and dehumanised population.

Remember Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto? Under similar conditions, they revolted: no one was suprised, but now we are to believe you when you say that a Palestinian responding to brutalisation with violence is pathological, 'a terrorist', and just a big ol' meanie....

Look in the mirror, Mishei, the problem starts with you and your absolute hippocrisy...


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Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 12:56 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Peterson:

What ? No mention of the 4 Israeli soldiers killed at a checkpoint ? Before the helicopter strike ?


My condolences to their families. Perhaps this will help them see that an illegal racist occupation has consequences and keep their next son from going to participate in the mass imprisonment of an entire ethnic group (what we used to call a concentration camp....).


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 June 2003 12:59 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was shocked to see on the TV news that Abdel Aziz Rantissi, the Hamas leader the Israelis tried to kill, is a familiar face. The guy who was defiant in his hospital bed is the same fellow who has been interviewed many times on the CBC as a spokesman for Hamas.

If I were Dore Gold, I'd buy lots and lots of life insurance.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Oh Wing we were doing so well...alas it's like a fetish here sometimes ..just can't help trying to find some way to inject Holocaust imagery into the Israeli Palestinian issue.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Why Israel? Because of the Holocaust, of course, says the Zionist. Jewish suffering is justification enough for the activities of the Jewish State.

Do as we say, not as we do...

Mishei likes to play the game that goes like this:

I politicise Jewish suffering - bring it down into the world of power relations, of cause and effect, of justification and retribution, but once I've done that, don't you dare turn it around on me. I hold it to be incomparable, yet compare it to everything incessently. I hold it to be unspeakable, ineffable, but enunciate its power whenever I can. I hold it to be beyond intellectualisation and rational comprehension, and yet I use it as a rhetorical cudgel in various kinds of intellectual movement. I make it an object among other objects, and then 'object' when anyone touches it...

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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ronb
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posted 11 June 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
hippocrisy

Now now, no need to bring his weight-problems into it...


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Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps Mishei would be more happy with the comparison to South Afrikkans Apartheid. Millions upon millions of blacks shoved into tiny spaces, daily harrassed by police and ravished by poverty and systemic discrimination. Did anyone doubt their right to attack those who put them in that position? Only those trying to whitewash the horror of the regime. Interestingly, when South Africa was on the sanctions list of almost every major Western country in the world, who continued to trade with her, and provide her diplomatic support? Why, Israel? I wonder why that was? Couldn't have been an identity of interests could it?

And when Serbia under Milosevic was tearing into all and sundry - taking Albanians to task, destroying Bosnia & Herzigovina, and calling Kosovo their 'Holy Land' the 'cradle of their nation' (this should all sound familiar to the Zionist), who stood at their side, provided diplomatic support and even sold weapons to them which were used in their attacks against those 'infidel Muslims'? Why Israel, of course, because there too she saw an identity of interests in supporting a regime bent on ethnic purity, particularly as against the Muslim underpeople....

Perhaps those comparisons are more to your liking, Mishei? They sure are flattering....

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Black Dog
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posted 11 June 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian doctors said two bystanders were killed, including an eight-year-old girl.

Another successful "targetted" killing. Bravo, IDF. Bravo.


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Whazzup?
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posted 11 June 2003 01:29 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
Remember Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto? Under similar conditions, they revolted.

Why do you guys do this? You, WingNut, many many others? Why does no one object except Mishei?

Really, I'm curious. Are you simply ignoramuses, who don't know what happened in Warsaw, and afterwards, at Treblinka? Are you just too lazy to look it up? Do you know how many Warsaw Jews were sent to gas chambers -- every day?

The situation of Palestinians in the West Bank is deplorable. You needn't draw comparisons with the Holocaust to make this point.

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Whazzup? ]


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 11 June 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We know exactly how it ended. However, it is sufficiently analogous to make the point that needed to be made (they needn't end the same way for the analogy to be correct), and it is an example that involves something that is a primary motivator for supporters of Israel. Consequently, it is completely fair to discuss it that way. Even necessary.

Mishei objects because he rejects exposure of his double standards and hypocrisy, naturally, and he hides behind a taboo like a coward.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Read my response to Mishei, Whazzup?, I think it is quite explanatory. Further, when Jews began organizing resistance within the Ghetto they didn't know about Auschwitz ir Treblinka either.
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Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:

Why do you guys do this? You, WingNut, many many others? Why does no one object except Mishei?

Really, I'm curious. Are you simply ignoramuses, who don't know what happened in Warsaw, and afterwards, at Treblinka? Are you just too lazy to look it up? Do you know how many Warsaw Jews were sent to gas chambers -- every day?

The situation of Palestinians in the West Bank is deplorable. You needn't draw comparisons with the Holocaust to make this point.


I actually agree with you, comparisons are unneccessary. However, Mishei has shown to propensities:

1) Inability to see the current occupation and brutalisation of Palestinians as morally objectionable, and a certain cause of the violent acts by many Palestinians against Israeli soldiers and civilians.

2) An ability to inject 'Jewish suffering' into other contexts - particularly the defense of Israeli Jewish State actions vis a vis Palestinians - as a justification, as a demarcation point, as a political 'object' among other objects, and then when the same object is used in a similiarly maudlin way, he/she rejects it as antisemitism. In my own case, I often bring it up as a way of bringing Mishei's reaction out in order to tear at the ideological underpinnings common to his/her argument, and common to many Zionists.

3) To make the same absurd move that you just made - to compare the Holocaust (clearly it was WORSE than anything else) and set it up as the measure of other Evils (it was the worst). Then, you turn around and say that comparisons to it, in fact, mere allusions to it are objectionable.
I disagree. The Jewish Genocide was an event among other events - it was the product of a particular political sequence that involved a number of ideological moves which are analogous to those used by Zionists defending the actions of the Israeli state. There are physical events which are analogous to the treatment of Jews by Nazis. The comparison can, and should be made, even if it is incomplete (as all comparisons are, qua comparison) because it shows how the evils of racist, fascist, thinking can show up anywhere - especially where we don't want to see them. A case where the very suffering of Jews needs to be traversed in order for many of them to see how they are using it as a weapon. This is very important.


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Whazzup?
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posted 11 June 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos, it didn't begin the same way either. And the in-between wasn't similar either. I conclude that you simply don't know history. Your main argument seems to be that, because "supporters of Israel" are often motivated by worries about the Holocaust, it is "fair" and "necessary" to compare Israeli abuses to the Holocaust as well. Frankly, Mandos, this is senseless. A comparison is valid only if the historical situation has relevant similarities. It does not.

WingNut, read some more. Jews were well aware of Nazi intentions, from their earlier actions, as well as from escapees from Treblinka. And anyway -- are Palestinians similarly aware of Israeli death camps?

According to Courage, "blah blah blah." I have no response.

All three of you seem to be saying that your response is in some way a direct reaction to Mishei. Did it ever occur to you that other people also read these arguments, and might find them remarkably ignorant?


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Read yourself Whazzup?

quote:
All three of you seem to be saying that your response is in some way a direct reaction to Mishei.

Did I say or indicate that? Where? Are you putting words in my mouth?

Take your false offense elsewhere.

I responded to Mishie that my mentioning of Warsaw was in direct response to SHH's argument of might makes right. And in that context it is a proper and fair question because by following his logic, because the Jews herded into the ghetto in Warsaw were weaker than their oppressors, they should have accepted their fate and made the best of it.

Do you agree with that?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 03:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Remember Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto? Under similar conditions, they revolted:
You see what happens here, stupid and evil comparisions between the tragedy of the Palestinian people and the attempted annihalation of the Jewish people during the Shoah. As bad as it is for the Palestinians (and I have never denied that)there is NO comparison to be made with the Warsaw Ghetto. My father is a survivor of the Ghetto. You have NO idea how inexplicably dumb and offensive this comparision is. Such comparisions are evil PERIOD.

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Such statements of evil are nonsense. PERIOD.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Such statements of evil are nonsense. PERIOD.
Exactly Wing . I'm pleased you agree with me, Then again despite our differences of opinion I always believed you fully understood the difference. Over 250,000 people were murdered in the Warsaw Ghetto.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My father is a survivor of the Ghetto.

Forgive the drift, but Mishei, this is a sincere historical question. I am interested in the stories of those who got out. I remember reading a year ago a wonderful website that told us some of their stories, but when I went searching for it on the anniversary this year, I just could not find it.

Do you mind telling me how your dad came out? If it is too personal, ok, I understand that. But the survivors' stories are still so amazing to me.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 11 June 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, I've never suggested anywhere that I take "offense" to the comparison. Merely that it shows ignorance. Which baffles me.

Take your recent attempt at a comparison. You say that the Jews herded into the ghetto in Warsaw [like the Palestinians] were weaker than their oppressors, and it is wrong to suggest that either should have "accepted their fate and made the best of it." But why drag the poor Warsaw Jews into this? Their "fate" was either revolt (and likely death) or Treblinka. That's not a choice.

For Palestinians, the situation is rather more complex, involving compromise, disappointment, and future struggle. Certain death is not part of that fate -- except for suicide bombers, of course. If I understand SHH's point, he's saying that a Palestinian state will involve some painful compromise. How that can be compared to the fate of Europe's Jewry in the 1940s is beyond me.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 04:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, dearest, if I understand Wingy's point correctly, he is wondering how many "painful compromises" will be enough, given, you know, everything so far.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 June 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Exactly Wing . I'm pleased you agree with me,

*cough*

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Whazzup?
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posted 11 June 2003 04:41 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I understand Wingy's point, luv. Can you tell me how Europe's Jews fit into all of this?

I must have missed the history class where they told me about the "painful compromises" Jews should have made to avoid being slaughtered. Also, the history class about Palestinians being sent to the gas ovens in the millions. I've got my Oxford History of the World in front of me -- do you happen to know the page reference?


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Forgive the drift, but Mishei, this is a sincere historical question. I am interested in the stories of those who got out. I remember reading a year ago a wonderful website that told us some of their stories, but when I went searching for it on the anniversary this year, I just could not find it.

Do you mind telling me how your dad came out? If it is too personal, ok, I understand that. But the survivors' stories are still so amazing to me.


Skadal, I have PMed the story to you.

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Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 04:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

*cough*

Do you need a Halls?

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Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
I understand Wingy's point, luv. Can you tell me how Europe's Jews fit into all of this?

I must have missed the history class where they told me about the "painful compromises" Jews should have made to avoid being slaughtered. Also, the history class about Palestinians being sent to the gas ovens in the millions. I've got my Oxford History of the World in front of me -- do you happen to know the page reference?


Thank you. You have explained the issue with clarity.

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Skadal, I have PMed the story to you.

Thanks, Mishei.

Truly, it is one of the stories that has made me think seriously about courage, how one finds it, whether one could in similar circumstances.

I mean, my first thought whenever I try to imagine myself standing in those shoes is that I would start digging -- straight down. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it is just so hard to get the mind around facing ... That.

One wonderful thing I learned that afternoon a month or so ago while I was searching for the website I eventually couldn't find: You know the little boy? The famous photo of the little boy with his hands raised, being marched out of the ghetto? He survived. I had never known that before. I know it is irrational to be especially glad over that news, but I was.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
I understand Wingy's point, luv. Can you tell me how Europe's Jews fit into all of this?

I must have missed the history class where they told me about the "painful compromises" Jews should have made to avoid being slaughtered. Also, the history class about Palestinians being sent to the gas ovens in the millions. I've got my Oxford History of the World in front of me -- do you happen to know the page reference?


Whazzup?, diddums, as I'm sure you know, I would never think that anyone could have done anything to "avoid being slaughtered" -- ie, you've set that up there to make it sound as though I might be implying that European Jews had some sort of responsibility for the assault upon them, which I certainly don't. On principle: never blame the victims, and if ever a people were trapped and vicitimized, it was the Jews of Europe after 1933.

However, Whazzup?, cutie-pie, as you well know, and as Mishei has more than once explained to those who didn't, leaders of some Jewish communities in Europe and, yes, in North America, before WWII, made the mistake of compromising over and over again, believing that concessions to the powerful might bring their people fair treatment, or at least mercy.

I think that one of Mishei's (often wrong-headed and deeply condescending, but understandable) motives in policing us here on babble derives from learning the lessons of that kind of "painful compromise."


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 11 June 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

as you well know, and as Mishei has more than once explained to those who didn't, leaders of some Jewish communities in Europe and, yes, in North America, before WWII, made the mistake of compromising over and over again, believing that concessions to the powerful might bring their people fair treatment, or at least mercy.

I think that one of Mishei's (often wrong-headed and deeply condescending, but understandable) motives in policing us here on babble derives from learning the lessons of that kind of "painful compromise."


Dear skdadl, I hope the "lesson" of the Holocaust hasn't become: compromise leads to death. Because if it has, I despair of peace ever reigning in the Middle East.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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posted 11 June 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can see how my statement might be characterized as ‘might makes right’, but that’s not the perspective from which I was answering the question of: What would I do? My answer was motivated by a need to consent to reality – ie, accept the painful compromises – and to elude as much pain as possible. I can theoretically understand the emotion behind fighting the good fight in the name of what’s right, but I’ve never been much of a Pyrrhic victory fan (loser or winner). Unlike the Nazis, most Israelis say they want to cut a deal. I believe them. No sense in banging your head against a wall. The wall isn’t moving. Life is right in any case.
From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 June 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Whazzup?, diddums, I would despair too -- if compromise were being expected of one side only.

Whazzup?, sweetness, listen up! We have here an imbalance of power, eh?!? Like, there are people who can do things pretty directly, and some other people who need a bit of propping, eh? And we're none of us born yesterday, eh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 11 June 2003 06:40 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Rookie, just out of curiosity what would you have Israel do when they are attacked by these thugs?

I can sympathize with the Israeli position to an extent. I sympathize with the people of Israel when they have to fear boarding a bus in the morning. Whether or not I agree in the creation of a Jewish state, I sympathize with those who must live in fear without being guilty of hateful or harmful intentions.

I'll tell you now that I think Israel should withdraw from the occupied areas. However, I don't think that it is necessarily my point of order to criticize settlers. I'm sure that many of them have the purest of intentions when they move into the area, and the legality of it is no concern to them.

Perhaps there was a time when military action was the solution. Remember the FLQ crisis? After a few bombs and a couple of kidnappings, Trudeau used the military. Imagine if the crisis was increased 10-fold. I think we may have used military oppression as a tactic.

But now it is proven that increased military oppression solves nothing. It only creates more anger and further diminishes peace plans. While, surely, militant Palestinian groups are guilty of violence and disrupting peace plans, Israel is doing the same.

Even if you argue that the retaliation is necessary against terrorists, Israel, as a sovereign nation, must be held accountable for their actions. Most of the world already holds the terrorist groups accountable for their violence (except some Arab nations that support it, which I agree, should stop), Israel is usually supported by the Western world.

If Ariel Sharon and the rest of Israel's leadership want to show that they are committed to peace, they should not retaliate. I understand that it would be a very difficult thing to do, to turn the other cheek. But if they truly want peace, it is the answer. If Israel did not retaliate against terrorist attacks, I think a lot of critics of Israel's foreign policy would be much more sympathetic to the Israeli cause. The Palestinian majority would condemn the terrorist actions, and suicide bombers would be shunned instead of praised.

When Palestinians are violent against Israelis, it provokes retaliation, no? To the best of my understanding, this is your argument. Then why is the reverse not true? When Israelis are violent against Palestinians, it provokes retaliation.


From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 11 June 2003 06:44 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To be fair, we, in Canada, stole this land from the natives and militarily occupied it. We committed genocide. The conditions that our natives live in are in many ways just as deplorable as the Palestinian refugees. We offer them pittance with underfunded reserves.

What if the international community backed the Natives, and they decided they wanted their sacred lands back? (Please pardon my lack of history here) What if the Hurons wanted your hometown, and with military might they took control of it? Would you be content moving out, or living under a new system of military government? Or would you fight it?

Not necessarily a point for debate, but at least one for reflection.


From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 07:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, Whazzup?, diddums, I would despair too -- if compromise were being expected of one side only.

Thank you, skdadl.

Whazzup?, I think the ignorance is yours and you know it. Further, I fail to understand it.

I will not be forced not to look at logical comparisons because of history's ghosts. Mishei would prefer that, of course, as would all those Israeli supporters who recall their past to justify their present but would deny the lessons learned to others.

You say, Whazzup?, that they should compromise and if I am reading SHH cvorrectly, he agrees. But what compromise? Israeli extremists supported by their government are hard at work changing the facts on the ground. Extremists, supported by Sharon, wish for the Palestinians, in press releases, only a Bantu of which not even former residents of South African townships would be envious. In reality, they seek a greater Israel free of Palestinians.

The Nazis sought to eliminate the Jews as a people by exterminating them. The Israelis wish to eliminate the Palestinians as a people by absorbing their land, erasing their history, and denying their existance.

Different methods same ends.

Now you can begin the predictable flaming or you can show me where I am wrong.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 08:35 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
A comparison is valid only if the historical situation has relevant similarities. It does not.

Of course, there is no relevent similarity on the count of institutional discrimination by a state against a particular ethnic group en masse?

And certainly, there is no relevent similarity when this victimised ethnic group is forced from their property by violence, corralled into a small space and subjected to various deprivations, humiliations, and violent acts simply because of their ethnicity does not conform to the 'proper' standard of a citizen of the state in question?

And, doubtlessly, there is no relevent similarity when a blood and soil ideology names one ethnic group the 'rightful owner' of a piece of real estate which can only be properly 'redeemed' or 'justly inhabited' by this ethnic group's presence on the land regardless of the claims of others; no relevent similarity between, say, the fascist deployment of ethnicity as a fundamental political catagory, and the deliberate elevation of force above compromise and voluntary agreement for the settlement of political questions a la Revisionist/Likud Zionism?

And certainly no relevent similarity between the relegation to secondary concern of the claims of Palestinians by the adherents of Zionism and the dehumanisation of Jews in the eyes of Nazis...

And no relevent similarity between the fear that the presence of 'the Jew' within the midst of the German nation would destroy the very fabric of there national well-being and the Zionist ideology concerning the need of a majoritarian 'Jewish' state to protect the Jewish nationality from the incursion of the alien 'Arab'....

Of course not.

quote:
All three of you seem to be saying that your response is in some way a direct reaction to Mishei. Did it ever occur to you that other people also read these arguments, and might find them remarkably ignorant?

Yup. And I'm willing to take you up on that. Of course, you've opted to simply ignore my reasons (and those of others) and simply take a condescending moral tone toward all of us, as though your oppobrium itself were enough to justify your charge...

It's not. And so you stand in similar stead to dearest Mishei - wholly 'righteous', but hardly 'right'....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 11 June 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Nazis sought to eliminate the Jews as a people by exterminating them. The Israelis wish to eliminate the Palestinians as a people by absorbing their land, erasing their history, and denying their existance.

Different methods same ends.


Why are you so meanhearted. Do you know anything about nazis??

I am a survivor of the Lodz Ghetto and Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. If you believe that Israel is acting in any way like the nazis you are a fool or possibly worse, How dare you? HOW DARE YOU??????

You make me cry with frustration. I wish I could transport you back in time to the Lodz Ghetto then you would see how wrong and hurtful you really are.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 08:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
[QB]

Take your recent attempt at a comparison. You say that the Jews herded into the ghetto in Warsaw [like the Palestinians] were weaker than their oppressors, and it is wrong to suggest that either should have "accepted their fate and made the best of it." But why drag the poor Warsaw Jews into this? Their "fate" was either revolt (and likely death) or Treblinka. That's not a choice.


Two things. 1) You miss the point of the comparison. You are comparing concrete historical events (which of course can never be exactly the same). In my case, I'm trying to compare the ideological coordinates - the psychological moves that make both the Warsaw ghetto and the West Bank prison a reality. I'll link to this later.

2)Your position is based on a quite disturbing assumption that the only properly terrible thing that can be done to a human is to threaten him with death. That the very essence of human-ness doesn't extend further than a basic animality/body-entrapped 'physicality'. In fact, however, there is a significant amount of what can properly be termed human which consists of his ability to be 'eternal' - something greater and with more dignity than a mere dying corpse. It is the denial of this dimension of 'humanity' which the Israeli state is engaged in vis a vis the Palestinians - and it is on this level that the act is analogous to the ideological moves of the Nazis. It is not hard to see from history that Nazi ideology about Jews largely consisted in the dehumanisation of them from the level of common humanity which assumes these non-physical characteristics. This move was primary in making the possibility of the death camps an actuality, and it is the same type of move that allows the rationalisation of daily Palestinian deaths, the destruction of their homes, livelihoods, and culture by Israeli state practice.

So while the specific 'results' of this move are dissimilar (which is what you are arguing) what I, and others are arguing, is that the psychological/ideological underpinnings are very much the same.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 June 2003 09:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Such comparisions are evil PERIOD.

[ 11 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


Such statements are ideological and properly the domain of religion, PERIOD. They are not testable arguments, PERIOD. They indicate a psychological need to demonise any questioning of the ideology to which your subject-self is identified, PERIOD.
They demonstrate your oft-repeated tendency to claim that Jewish suffering is incomparable, and yet compare it to all other suffering, PERIOD. It demonstrates your fetishistic need to elevate the 'Shaoa' (a properly religious term, considering) to the measure of absolute evil to which all other evils must be continually compared and fall short, PERIOD. This results in your complete inability to think the Holocaust as a historical event, PERIOD, and to properly create a workable ethical catagory of Evil which can be objectively applied, PERIOD.

As such, it demonstrates not only your ideological blindness, but the utter puerility of your rational capacity, PERIOD.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 10:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Such statements are ideological and properly the domain of religion, PERIOD. They are not testable arguments, PERIOD. They indicate a psychological need to demonise any questioning of the ideology to which your subject-self is identified, PERIOD.
They demonstrate your oft-repeated tendency to claim that Jewish suffering is incomparable, and yet compare it to all other suffering, PERIOD. It demonstrates your fetishistic need to elevate the 'Shaoa' (a properly religious term, considering) to the measure of absolute evil to which all other evils must be continually compared and fall short, PERIOD. This results in your complete inability to think the Holocaust as a historical event, PERIOD, and to properly create a workable ethical catagory of Evil which can be objectively applied, PERIOD.

As such, it demonstrates not only your ideological blindness, but the utter puerility of your rational capacity, PERIOD.


Right


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 10:48 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zisel:
Why are you so meanhearted. Do you know anything about nazis??

I am a survivor of the Lodz Ghetto and Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. If you believe that Israel is acting in any way like the nazis you are a fool or possibly worse, How dare you? HOW DARE YOU??????

You make me cry with frustration. I wish I could transport you back in time to the Lodz Ghetto then you would see how wrong and hurtful you really are.



I am truly sorry for what you have suffered. It would be my deepest wish that all the horror you experienced could be undone. I cannot imagine what you have lived through. I cannot imagine the pain you may still be carrying.

But I do know that whatever you have suffered and do suffer, does not mitigate the suffering inflicted upon Palestinians today.

They did not do this to you or your family. They just happened to live on a land you call Israel.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 10:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

But I do know that whatever you have suffered and do suffer, does not mitigate the suffering inflicted upon Palestinians today.

They did not do this to you or your family. They just happened to live on a land you call Israel.


Wing, it seems to me that Zeisel's concern is your misunderstanding of nazism. I would hope she/he understands that there is much pain being suffered by the ordinary Palestinian which IMHO has as much to do with Hamas as Israel. However the pain you caused had to do with your attempt to liken the Palestinian tragedy to the Jewish genocide. Zeisel went through the horror and knows it with all its force and evil through first hand experience. She knows the comparison was wrong and was simply trying to tell you that.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no desire whatsoever to contribute further to her pain. So I will not persue the issue further in respect of her.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 11 June 2003 11:08 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mr. Bush and his spokesman Ari Fleischer both expressed his displeasure with the strike, saying that he was "troubled," and that the attacks will make it more difficult for Mr. Abbas to prevent terrorism. "I also don't believe the attacks helped Israeli security," Mr. Bush said.

Bush fires rare volley at Israeli PM


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 June 2003 11:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I have no desire whatsoever to contribute further to her pain. So I will not persue the issue further in respect of her.
Thanks Wing. That is very decent..honest

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 June 2003 12:15 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
Why do you guys do this? You, WingNut, many many others? Why does no one object except Mishei?

I like amusing myself with the comparison of Israel to a banana republic, because it seems that sometimes its leadership can be just as short-sighted and just as ham-fisted as your garden-variety dictator of some piddly little country who thinks with his cerebellum instead of his cerebrum.

They also have about the same appreciation for the effect the actions of their armed forces have on the subject peoples of the realm. (that is to say... bupkiss.)

[ 12 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 12 June 2003 08:41 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The major differnce Doc (and you know this thatn is what is so frustrating) is that Israel has free and unfettered elctions in which all citizens of Israel participate, it has an independent judiciary which has ruled against government in countless cases, it has a free press and a human rights agency (in which its members are free to critisize government without fear of reprisal) that has fought on behalf of Palestinians, Gay rights womens rights, prisoner rights...please show me any banana republic with such institutions in place...just one...in all the world just one....
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 12 June 2003 09:11 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was also an Israeli panel or something that found the guy currently saying "fuck you" to Dubya of being indirectly responsible of a massacre. Sharon knows what he is doing, and what he is doing is making sure there is no peace, just like the people who support him want. So, tell me, what's the big difference between people that hate Israel and Sharon's supporters that claim "we can't cave to Palestinian terrorism"?
From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 12 June 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Nazis sought to eliminate the Jews as a people by exterminating them. The Israelis wish to eliminate the Palestinians as a people by absorbing their land, erasing their history, and denying their existance.
Different methods same ends.

That's textbook bigotry, WingNut. I can't count the number of times you've objected to the phrase "Palestinian terrorism" as bigotry, even though there is no implication at all in the phrase that "Palestinians" as a whole support terrorism. But here you go stating outright that "Israelis wish to eliminate the Palestinians as a people." With no objections from anyone.

Tell me, WingNut, since you have now explicitly stated that the Israelis and Nazis are equivalent in their desire to "eliminate" a people, why is it that nearly 60% of Israelis support the creation of a Palestinian state? Doesn't that seem, well, counter-intuitive? Wouldn't there be a more efficient way of accomplishing the "elimination" of the Palestinian people than offering them 98% of the West Bank as a state of their own?

But to appreciate that fact, you'd have to know history. Which you don't. Which is why you continue to display, as the incomparable Courage might say, the "utter puerility of your rational capacity."


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 12 June 2003 12:38 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Total war threatened by Israel and Hamas
From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 12 June 2003 02:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, if you read past your own puerile remarks you would appreciate that I have removed myself further from these discussions. But I will address some of what you write. Your dishonesty or stupidity, you decide which, astounds me. You know, and I do not have to spell ot out, that when I speak of Israel I am not speaking of Jews or Israelis as a whole but their government.

Certainly you understand that unless you believe all Germans to have been Nazis.

It might surprise you, but history is much more than dates and dead, white men. And anyone who would argue that an examination of history is out of bounds is someone committed to a lie or fearful of the truth. You decide.

In the meantime, don't bother me. I am not interested in your baiting or lack of honest discussion. This is a matter where people are dying as we speak and worsening every minute. There is nothing I can do about it.

But at least when Zisel yells at me I can hear her emotion. At least when Mishie disagrees with me I can understand, even see (however much I might disagree with it) his point of view. You? You are jsut full of shit.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Art J
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posted 12 June 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for Art J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Israeli government is nowhere near as bad as the Nazis were. They haven't killed nearly as many people, for instance. Not even close. Sure, they are brutal towards the Palestinians, but they have a long way to go before we can compare them to Nazis.
From: British Columbia Inc. - Let us Prey | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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Babbler # 1471

posted 12 June 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You know, and I do not have to spell ot out, that when I speak of Israel I am not speaking of Jews or Israelis as a whole but their government.

Certainly you understand that unless you believe all Germans to have been Nazis.


Here is what you wrote:

quote:
The Nazis sought to eliminate the Jews as a people by exterminating them. The Israelis wish to eliminate the Palestinians as a people by absorbing their land, erasing their history, and denying their existance.

Your first sentence refers to "the Nazis" specifically, not the Germans. So it means that all or most Nazis (though not all Germans) tried to eliminate the Jews.

Your second sentence refers to "the Israelis" -- not to Labour, or Likud, or any government at all. So it means that all or most Israelis are trying to "eliminate" the Palestinians.

Maybe you meant to say that all Israeli governments that have ever existed have tried to "eliminate" the Palestinians as a people. But since they were democratically elected, this amounts to the same thing: Israelis in general desire the "elimination" of Palestinians, just as the Nazis did the Jews.

What you are saying is really quite simple, WingNut. Objectionable, but simple.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 12 June 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clearly, Whazzup?, you want to play a game of semantics. Fine. Do so. But I don't. But you should be careful, Whazzup?. You are thin skinned. And I do recall your being quite upset not that long ago when you said I was accusing you as you are accusing me now. I apologized then as it was not my intention to offend you to the extent that I did. I am not so thin skinned. And it is your intention to offend. I can accept your baiting as the trolling it is. I hope you will be equally obliging when the favour is returned.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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Babbler # 1471

posted 12 June 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Semantics" is just another word for what a sentence means. So yes, I'm concerned with semantics.

But maybe I should go easier on you. Semantics clearly isn't your strong suit. In the thread you refer to, you accused me of racism and attempting to "slur all of a religion," simply because you couldn't bother to understand the meaning of a single word -- Islamism. I assumed you apologized because you realized you were wrong. But if you honestly think I'm racist, then why apologize? I'm certainly not apologizing for pointing out the clear bigotry in your own post.

Criticizing the occupation, fiercely criticizing it, without resorting to bigotry or absurd historical comparisons really isn't so difficult. Try Amira Hass.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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Babbler # 3232

posted 12 June 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
I have no opinion about the current wave of violence.

At work, my colleagues and I have all stopped closely following any news about the Middle East for the past few weeks. "They are all crazy" is pretty much the consensus we have reached. So why bother?

So, no I have not mistakenly wandered into the Middle East thread to contribute my thoughts. Nothing to say really about anything related to the death cults that pass for governments, authorities, movements, or parties in those far-off lands.

Just a remark about the Nazi issue.

A friend of mine who runs Internet discussion boards explains to me that there is an iron law of the Internet - as soon as anyone or anything is compared to the Nazis, that discussion usually dies out quickly.

This iron law, I am told, has never known any exceptions.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 12 June 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I apologized because I agreed there to a level of understanding. Understanding over, okay? Islamist is a racist term used by racists smear those of a particular faith who do not subscribe to a dogmatic position that they lower themselves to their prescribed lower order in the human race.

So, a follower of Islam who believes he has the same rights to dignity and self-determination as an Israeli or an American is therefore an Islamist. The same person who agrees to suffer humiliations and indignities in return for a life free of violence is a moderate.

There is no bigotry in referring to the Israeli government as Israelis because as you correctly pointed out they do elect their governments and did elect their government twice. It is not necessary to say that all Israelis do not support their government any more than it is to say all Canadians do not support free trade yet we say Canadians are part of NAFTA.

Any suggestion otherwise is disingenous and beneath contmept. And yes, you are beneath contempt.

Finally, this whole issue began with a single comment. SHH made a statement, he agrees, could be interpreted to mean "might makes right" and I asked him if that were true also in the context of the Warsaw Ghetto. He understands that. Mishei understands that. You are the only asshole who does not understand that.

I assume you are playing this game as some sort of childish payback. Fair enough.

Tell you what then, I am bigot. Happy? I am a biggot becaue I dared ask a question in the context of an historical event. Damn me.

But as you still cling to the definition of an Islamist as used by racists such as
Daniel Pipes I assume you are in the same league.

This is what you wanted, Whazzup? You got it.

[ 12 June 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 12 June 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Be happy. Go Pagan.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 12 June 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, a follower of Islam who believes he has the same rights to dignity and self-determination as an Israeli or an American is therefore an Islamist.
No that person would be a Muslim.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 12 June 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Trinitty:
Be happy. Go Pagan.

Why bother at all? Besides, like most similar conflicts, the strife in the Middle East uses religion as mere window dressing.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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Babbler # 826

posted 12 June 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know black_dog, just trying to inject some humour in a totally hopeless situation. We haven't watched the News for a month, things will never change and that makes me ashamed to be a human.

However I do feel that if we directed our worship at the EARTH rather than something nobody can proove or agree upon there would be a little less blood shed over it.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 June 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trin, I'm having that sort of afternoon on this forum too, sort of.

Just runnin' through another chorus of the song that starts "Sometimes it hurts / To be a woman ..."


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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Babbler # 1471

posted 12 June 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Islamist is a racist term used by racists smear those of a particular faith who do not subscribe to a dogmatic position that they lower themselves to their prescribed position of a lower order in the human race.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, WingNut, but it's wrong. Islamism is a term used favorably among those who espouse it (Hamas leaders, for instance), and unfavorably by those who reject it (many moderate Muslims and Sufis among them). It is purely descriptive. I really think you ought to look into this a little before you make any more uninformed observations.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 12 June 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Islamism means political Islam, and usually refers to a political programme based on some variety of fundamentalist Islam. I heard it in French long before English, think it came to English from the French. I have often heard secularists (some of whom are practising Muslims, some athiests, some in-between) from Muslim cultures use this term.

It is a form of call for theocratic rule. There are elements in all religions that want religious law to hold sway as civil and criminal law. It is certainly a problem (for most Israelis!) in Israeli society, where Jewish fundamentalist groups enforce rules of dress and behaviour in certain neighbourhoods and exert an undue influence on conversions, marriage law etc.

Hating Al-Qaeda or Hamas is not anti-Islamic. Hating Sharon is not anti-Jewish. Hating Muslims or Jews as a group is.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 12 June 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Islamism is a term used favorably among those who espouse it (Hamas leaders, for instance)
Of course it is. Because everyone in Hamas speaks English.

And I am concerned with how Pipes and you use the term which, I would believe, is not unlike the way a good ol' boy might use it.

[ 12 June 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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Babbler # 1471

posted 12 June 2003 06:30 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Because everyone in Hamas speaks English.

No, not everyone. But many do. French too. They're not illiterate peasants, you know, if that's what you're implying. Many are highly educated, some even professors.

Lagatta gave a good thumbnail sketch of Islamism, which is how I understand it. I believe that's also the way Pipes uses it, even if his agenda is rather, well, murky, shall we say?


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 12 June 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am surprised you would give thewm ay credit. Good for you. Nevertheless, is it possible the english word is not the word followers of Militant Islam use? Do you know the origin of the English word or are you just comfortable believing you know everything?
quote:
I believe that's also the way Pipes uses it, even if his agenda is rather, well, murky, shall we say?

Yeah, I am sure that is what you would prefer we say.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 12 June 2003 06:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One wonders why in other countries where the involved parties are Christian, Buddhist or Hindu, the fighters are not identified by a religious label. The fighters in Ireland are not called Christian though those who are involved in the dispute are all Christian. Nor do we view the struggles in Ethiopia or Korea from a religious base. On the other hand, if the fighter or issue is related to a country with a Muslim majority or a group containing Muslims, they will be identified as Islamic or Muslim. This is bad for the image of Islam and gives an incorrect idea of the religion. Earlier the term 'Islamist' was used to describe certain partisans of the Iranian revolution. Eventually the term was extended to mean anything related to Muslim countries. Later, unfortunately, the word Muslim itself began to be associated in the Western media with kidnapping, bloodshed and terrorism.

Yeah, Why?

*Itals and bold mine.



Whazzup? knows everything. Maybe he can tell us.

[ 12 June 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2999

posted 12 June 2003 08:42 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fighters in Ireland are not called Christian though those who are involved in the dispute are all Christian.

No they are not called Christian, they are called Catholic and Protestant.


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 12 June 2003 08:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The major differnce Doc (and you know this thatn is what is so frustrating) is that Israel has free and unfettered elctions in which all citizens of Israel participate,

That explains why the Likud didn't mind elbowing out the Arab party competition (indirectly, mind you) and it took a court decision to slap them into reality.

Banana republics usually make just as much a farce out of their elections by meddling with minority and opposition political parties, and by rigging the system every which way.

quote:
it has an independent judiciary which has ruled against government in countless cases,

I'll be glad to concede this when you show me them doing anything other than slapping an IDF soldier on the wrist for aiming a rocket launcher at a building and blasting it to smithereens.

quote:
it has a free press and a human rights agency (in which its members are free to critisize government without fear of reprisal) that has fought on behalf of Palestinians, Gay rights womens rights, prisoner rights...please show me any banana republic with such institutions in place...just one...in all the world just one....

Well, in some Latin American countries there were indeed non-government newspapers and human rights groups that existed, though perilously, at the whim of the government and who did indeed publish. But were they to depart from the norm too quickly, they might well find the armed forces and/or police very interested in what they were doing.

I'll give you partial credit on this since the IDF hasn't flattened Gush Shalom's HQ yet.

[ 12 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 June 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That explains why the Likud didn't mind elbowing out the Arab party competition (indirectly, mind you) and it took a court decision to slap them into reality.


No Doc, that explains why Israel is NOT a banana republic as you state (I hope out of ignorance and not malevolance). What banana republic would allow a court (of all things) to overule it??? Your condascending attitude towards Israel is offensive and suspect.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 12 June 2003 09:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, with Netanyahu plodding in the same fiscal direction as Dubya, the "banana republic" metaphor might become even more apt since a general irresponsibility with government finances is also a characteristic of such.

As for the court decision, even banana republics do reverse course if the PR threatens to be bad enough.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 June 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

As for the court decision, even banana republics do reverse course if the PR threatens to be bad enough.


I challenge you to name one banana republic that has a free, unfetered and independent judiciary like Israel, that will challenge and overturn government decisions. Come on Doc name ONE...Just ONE...

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 June 2003 12:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Close enough to a hundred posts.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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