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Author Topic: Hamas refuses to end violence!!
Mishei
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posted 06 June 2003 08:24 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just as we are close to a process towards peace, it becomes clear as to what Hamas and the terrorists really want.

Hamas refuses to end violence


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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Babbler # 4178

posted 06 June 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, just like I pointed out earlier.

quote:

"We will never be ready to lay down arms until the liberation of the last centimeter of the land of Palestine," Hamas official Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi said. Islamic Jihad, another group sworn to Israel's destruction, followed suit.

But neither ruled out further talks with Abbas, who seeks a halt to militant attacks in a 32-month-old revolt for independence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites). He has sought to coax both groups into a cease-fire.



From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2003 09:44 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, where is that optimism?
Peterson, for God's sake, source.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 06 June 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Give Abbas a chance!!! give peace a chance!!! he has to lay down the law one way or another. If Hamas don't want to listen to him or negotiate he should use any means necessary to implement his side of the road map even if it means civil war (That’s worst case scenario) Same with Sharon if the settlers don't want move I say give it to them full force Bulldoze their houses make them move. If everyone would just take care of their own responsibilities we'd have peace. And we can not let a couple crazy fanatics. We can not tolerate the intolerable. There is only one difference between the settlers and Hamas and that’s that the settlers think that the army will do the dirty work for them. Well I believe they got something else coming and are going to have to learn to live with it.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 June 2003 10:15 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Im optimistic Wing...just hope Abbas can reign these murderers in
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 06 June 2003 10:33 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am remaining a skeptic. I have read where the Israeli government has already released a clarification of that other murderer's speech indicating that when he said an "independent" Palestinian state he didn't really mean that but a "demilitarized" Palestininian terrirtory.

And further, that "outposts" are trailer homes and Sharon has no intention of dismantling settlements.

Not even a Bush favored Palestinian leader can sell out that to his people.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 06 June 2003 11:47 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas is definitely an organization based on the most cynical exploitation of ideology for violent purposes. But then again, so is the IDF.

I, for one, don't trust either side to genuinely hold the interests of Israeli and Palestinian civilians at the forefront of their brutal and murderous tactics. But I am hopeful, very cautiously hopeful, that the politicians at least - Abbas and Sharon - can find a political solution that would disarm one and reign in the other.

I don't trust Sharon, not one bit, and I doubt that Abbas will survive the inevitable assassination attempt that will result from any real attempt to disarm violent militants.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 June 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I doubt that Abbas will survive the inevitable assassination attempt that will result from any real attempt to disarm violent militants.

Sharon's probably thinking a lot about Rabin these days.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 06 June 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut

hamas, jihad won't disarm


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Ray. And I'm really not trying to give you a hard time. I see the quotes and I often want to be able to read the articles.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 06 June 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Well put Rebecca West!
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 06 June 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sharon's probably thinking a lot about Rabin these days
Yes, that had occurred to me as well. But I don't think he has anything to worry about. He's no more a peacemaker than Nixon (or Kissenger) was when the US finally pulled out of Viet Nam.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 June 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hamas is definitely an organization based on the most cynical exploitation of ideology for violent purposes. But then again, so is the IDF.
Yes compare the IDF to murdering terrorists. This is the worst kind of cynical, manipulative immoral bullshit I have ever seen. And I see it here often.

The IDF has much to be held accountable for and the Israeli public will do so. But to compare it to the murdering thugs of Hamas is exactly what is wrong with some here who clearly have either never lived in Israel, visited Israel or have any depth of understanding as to the difference between thiose who blow up babies and soldiers who protect their country. Yes sometimes some do terrible things. It is a war against Terrorism...terrible things happen after you see your family being blown away...stop the terrorism and I guarentee the violence against the terror will stop as well.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 06 June 2003 03:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is the worst


quote:
And I see it here often.


And awaaaaaaay we go!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 June 2003 03:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems to me I've heard that song before
It's from an old familiar score
I know it well, that melody

It's funny how a theme
Recalls a favorite dream
A dream that brought you so close to me

I know each word, because I've heard that song before
The lyrics said: "for evermore"
For evermore's a memory

Please have them play it again
And (Then) I'll remember just when
I heard that lovely song before


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 06 June 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The IDF has much to be held accountable for and the Israeli public will do so.

You mispelled haven't yet done so above. Hope this helps.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2003 03:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is a war against Terrorism...terrible things happen after you see your family being blown away...stop the terrorism and I guarentee the violence against the terror will stop as well.

Stop the cold-blooded murder of innocent Palestinians and I guarantee the violent retribution will stop.

Lot of BS, Mishei?

I agree. No one here defends Hamas violence and you ought not to be defending IDF violence. They are all thugs with guns taking orders from men committed to violence.

When you defend the use of the IDF for occupation that results in homes being demolished, humiliations, the murder of children, activists, journalists, the malnutrition of children, and theft of resources, especially water, and most of this to defend settlers, then it becomes very hard not to see the other side.

I remember reading in Harper's the transcript of an interview with captured Palestinian suicide bombers and Israel's defense minister. They strapped bombs to their bodies and went to blow up Israelis because "terrible things happen after you see your family being blown away."

Condemn all violence, mishei, and maybe we have a starting point.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2003 03:57 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This just in:
quote:
The Israeli leader, who faces implacable opposition from his right-wing coalition partners to a two-state solution, has said he is in favour of only a demilitarised Palestinian state including only 42 per cent of the West Bank.

The US has yet to press Mr Sharon for a settlement freeze and said it will address Israeli reservations to the road map, including a demand that the Palestinians give up the right of refugees from the 1948 war to return to what is now Israel.

Militant groups such as Hamas are demanding an end to Israeli "targeted assassinations" of its members and a military withdrawal from Palestinian towns and villages.

FT.com


The hardliners on both sides are being instrangient.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 June 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IOF apparently has no qualms about continuing the violence
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 June 2003 06:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You mispelled haven't yet done so above. Hope this helps.


Firstly, it has been a long held tradition here on Babble not to critisize potsers for "spelling" errors. Those who do so are usually roundly told off. I won't hold my breath.

Secondly, as for your ongoing attempts at moral equivalancy which ofcourse is immoral...nothing's quite as sure as change and nothing ever changes.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 June 2003 06:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all, he wasn't correcting your spelling, he was making a point in a smart-alecky way.

Secondly, let's not get into a debate about whether someone posts this or that. People have posted their opinions about the IDF and Hamas and that's okay. Mishei claims that's moral equivalency to compare the two and that's okay too - that's his opinion. Let's not get into the usual fight about whether it's okay on babble to talk about this stuff, because it IS okay. Fight nipped in the bud, I hope.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 June 2003 06:53 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
First of all, he wasn't correcting your spelling, he was making a point in a smart-alecky way.
Hence the rolling eye icon.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 June 2003 06:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, okay, I thought maybe you just didn't get it.

Anyhow, back to the subject!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
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posted 06 June 2003 08:32 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is clear that the Hamas terrorists want nothing but the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews.

Something everyone should remember that there is a world of difference between a Hamas terrorist and an average Palestinian. But at the same time, I think that it is wrong to critcize the IDF for going after the terrorists. That action is justified. What is not justified is actions against normal Palestinian civilians (those who harbor and aid the terrorists don't count in this category). But the majority of Palestinians are not bloodthirsty terrorists.

The IDF will be held responsible for their misdeeds against non-militants. But this should happen AFTER peace is acheived and the militants stopped.

And so my point here is that too many people are choosing one side or another instead of trying to work for a peace acceptable to both sides.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 06 June 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just as we are close to a process towards peace, it becomes clear as to what Hamas and the terrorists really want.

And this is surprising to you...why? Hamas is a religious terrorist organization. Did you expect them to compromise? That's not what they're about. So friggin' what? Is every extremist settler group in favour of a peace process? Is the entire Israeli right wing happy with this decision? I don't think so.

To expect the extremists to lay down their arms because the moderates might be coming to a deal is just naïve.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 06 June 2003 09:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
The IDF will be held responsible for their misdeeds against non-militants. But this should happen AFTER peace is acheived and the militants stopped.

In banana republics it also usually takes a change of affairs for anybody in the military to start being held to account for their egregious actions.

Thank you for confirming in my mind the validity of the comparison, which I assure you is not flattering to Israel's self-proclamation as a Western-style democracy.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 June 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is every extremist settler group in favour of a peace process?
The difference being that as bad as the settlers may be in theoir politics, they are not strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing up Palestinian children.
quote:
In banana republics it also usually takes a change of affairs for anybody in the military to start being held to account for their egregious actions.

Thank you for confirming in my mind the validity of the comparison, which I assure you is not flattering to Israel's self-proclamation as a Western-style democracy.


This is way off in outer space. Banana republic? What exactly are you talking about. How many Banana republics have a free press, an independent judiciary, free elections? Doc keep on looking for ways to demonize Israeli society cuz it is clear that such statements are so over the top you lose any credibility you may have had on israel.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 June 2003 11:01 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How many Western democracies find their military officers routinely retiring into top-level jobs in the private sector and getting access to lucrative government contracts in return?

Only one: The United States, and these days it sure looks a lot like a banana republic, too.

Free elections? You mean like how an Arab party nearly got denied the right to submit members for the party lists?

An independent judiciary? I'll give you that.

A free press? I'll give you that, too, though I note that Ariel Sharon has substantially unfettered access to Israeli media any time he wants to push his point of view. Opposition leaders and Arafat don't have equal access to the media.

I find it instructive that you are not admonishing Gir Draxon for his claim that IDF soldiers should not be punished for infractions "until after peace is achieved", given your strenuous, if laughable, claims that the IDF "pursues its own" regardless of political expediency.

[ 06 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 June 2003 11:11 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The difference being that as bad as the settlers may be in theoir politics, they are not strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing up Palestinian children.

No. They prefer to shoot them. Or have the IDF shoot them.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 June 2003 11:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You mean like how an Arab party nearly got denied the right to submit members for the party lists?
No. How I mean that Israel's Supreme Court protected the rights of the Arab minority political parties despite what the Likud and others tried to do. That is the hallmark of an independent Judiciary.

quote:
Opposition leaders and Arafat don't have equal access to the media.

This is actually funny. You can't be serious? Do you mean like Ernie Eves gets more time than Dalton McG(whatever)? Like Steven Harper gets less time than Jean Chretien? Like Tony Blair gets more time than whoever the British opposition leader is...? You really can't be serious on this one Doc!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 June 2003 11:56 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No. They prefer to shoot them.

Yes Smith some extremist settlers may have engaged in shooting innocent people. I condemn this as do the vast majority of Israelis. Yet thank God it is a rare occurence in Israel. Would it be that you could say the same of the Islamic extremists who murder regularly, in great numbers and for the most part have targeted the most vulnerable...people shopping, children eating pizza, teens at a local discotech....


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 June 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Would it be that you could say the same of the Islamic extremists who murder regularly

Regularly?

Mish, the IOF kills almost every day. Yesterday was the last reported case. Hamas attacks make the news here, but they are far more infrequent than IOF murders.

OK, you may now start your regular rant about moral equivalency.

5-4-3-2-1

Go.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
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posted 07 June 2003 01:14 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes Smith some extremist settlers may have engaged in shooting innocent people. I condemn this as do the vast majority of Israelis.

Would that you would spend a tenth of the time you spend condemning violent Arabs condemning violent Israelis.

quote:

Yet thank God it is a rare occurence in Israel.

But not in the "disputed" territories.

quote:

Would it be that you could say the same of the Islamic extremists who murder regularly, in great numbers and for the most part have targeted the most vulnerable...people shopping, children eating pizza, teens at a local discotech....

As opposed to senior citizens knitting on their porches. Right.

Somehow, your "condemned" extremist settlers and IDF protectors have managed to kill three times as many people as the murderous Islamic extremists in the same time period.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Youngfox.
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posted 07 June 2003 01:43 AM      Profile for Youngfox.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The families of innocent British and American peace protesters murdered by the benevolent IDF might not agree with M's appraisal of their honourable defence of their country.

By avoiding even uttering the words Independent Palestinian Nation, Sharon gets to have his cake and eat it to. To his honourless American allies he has gone through the motions of compliance yet to his cronies on the right he has not compromised his inflexible position. The response to his hollow lip service by groups like Hamas is quite predicable and exactly what he expects and desires.
Israel being the nation with WMD that frequently invades surrounding countries and commits "preemptive" murders of rival leaders must reach down from their lofty position of power and offer real concessions to the people it victimizes before any serious peace process can be considered.

Hey Mish, have your Zionist end-time buddies bread their genetically mutated kosher red calf yet?
Just wondering how much longer the world has.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: Youngfox. ]


From: Hypercube | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 07 June 2003 02:09 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey Mish, have your Zionist end-time buddies bread their genetically mutated kosher red calf yet?

Is this really necessary?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Youngfox.
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posted 07 June 2003 02:12 AM      Profile for Youngfox.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is any of it really necessary?
From: Hypercube | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 07 June 2003 02:43 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
This is actually funny. You can't be serious? Do you mean like Ernie Eves gets more time than Dalton McG(whatever)? Like Steven Harper gets less time than Jean Chretien? Like Tony Blair gets more time than whoever the British opposition leader is...? You really can't be serious on this one Doc!!

I was speaking of Israel specifically. Sharon has unprecedented access to the media for a Prime Minister.

The fact that the Israeli Supreme Court had to even step in to prevent an injustice being done to a political party is a bad sign for the non-judicial branches of the Israeli government as far as their commitment to "democracy" goes.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569

posted 07 June 2003 05:54 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Youngfox.:

Hey Mish, have your Zionist end-time buddies bread their genetically mutated kosher red calf yet?

Just wondering how much longer the world has.


I've been lurking in this thread, but I have to say I think this is uncalled-for, and nasty.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: verbatim ]


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 07 June 2003 07:57 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey Mish, have your Zionist end-time buddies bread their genetically mutated kosher red calf yet?

Just wondering how much longer the world has.


Geez. Cranky much?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 07 June 2003 08:32 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey Mish, have your Zionist end-time buddies bread their genetically mutated kosher red calf yet?
Just wondering how much longer the world has.

This is ANTISEMITIC!!!!! Instead of asking this bigot if "this is necessary", I would hope that everyone here would be demanding action to remove such hate from Babble.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 June 2003 08:39 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think I agree. Youngfox should be apologizing.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 June 2003 08:44 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And for the record, condoning the violence of people in uniform against those who are not, or downplayingthe violence of those who are Jewish as opposed to those who are not is as much moral equivalency as anything else. And any pretense to the contrary is someone lying to himself or all of us.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 07 June 2003 08:51 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You should grab a peek at Youngfox's profile. It is the most violent one I have seen here. Coupled with his antisemitic post, it is truly chilling.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 07 June 2003 08:51 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sorry double post

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 June 2003 12:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You should grab a peek at Youngfox's profile. It is the most violent one I have seen here. Coupled with his antisemitic post, it is truly chilling.

Oh get a grip, Mish.

Yeah, youngfox, that was out of order. And it's spelled "bred" not "bread." (I couldn't figure out what the heck you were saying last night. I thought you were talking about making sandwiches or something - see, spelling does make a difference).


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 07 June 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Oh get a grip, Mish.


Al, when it comes to expressions of antisemitism
we all must condemn it.you have done a disservice to Babble by simply telling YF to stop going overboard. Such minimal words only allows him and others who would follow in his footsteps to believe they can get away with it.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2003 01:55 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Take a remedial reading class or something, Mish.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 June 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems WingNut needs to take the same class or is it just possible you are choosing to brush Yf's antisemitism under the carpet?

quote:
WingNut
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posted 07 June 2003 08:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I agree. Youngfox should be apologizing.

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al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I said youngfox's comments were out of bounds, you blockhead. What's your problem?

I meant your comment about the "chilling" image (it's from an advert for a movie fer cryin' out loud) when I said "get a grip."

Can't you find better things to do than twist everyone's words in order to make asinine accusations?


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forgive me, because I truly don't understand the image, but when I read it, I took it to be a slam at Christian fundamentalists, not at Jews.

Isn't that the meaning?

Wasn't Youngfox referring to those fundamentalist USians who support Zionism because they think it will hasten St John's Revelation of the End Times?


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, his meaning's not very clear. And he did use the word "Zionist" and not "Fundie" or the phrase "Holy Roller" to describe who the "end time buddies" were.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wasn't Youngfox referring to those fundamentalist USians who support Zionism because they think it will hasten St John's Revelation of the End Times?

That's what I thought too, but youngfox's spelling and syntax (I think a few guys were supping ale last night while posting - I bet kiowa's got a hangover today) makes it hard to tell.


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 02:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the fundies describe themselves as Zionists.

I'm sure we've had this conversation before, and had it well linked and all.


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a calf in Revelation 4.

There are also, elsewhere in the book, a red horse (Second Horseman of the Apocalypse rides a red horse, and is War) and a red dragon -- actually, a lot of things in Revelation are red -- but I see no red calf.


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
But the fundies describe themselves as Zionists.

I never heard of that, actually, and I used to read a fair bit of end-times literature a decade ago.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2003 02:38 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but I see no red calf.

Its a sub-genus of the species, "Pink elephant."


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How's about "Red Herring"?
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Mishei
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posted 07 June 2003 03:30 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about an attempt to deny antisemitism?
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Youngfox.
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posted 07 June 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for Youngfox.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mish I am sorry I set off your hypersensitive victim-culture alarm but I was referring to the fundamentalist Christian zealots (who claim to be Zionists). They want to engineer a string of tragic events in order to bring about the end of time and bring back the violent, blue eyed Jesus they seem to worship. While they pretend to be friends of Judaism, their end-time design involves the slaughter or "conversion" of countless Jews in the final conflict before the "messiah" "returns".
Damned if I can find the original article in which I read about this murderous conspiracy but I will reference this link below as a somewhat sketchy explanation for those who might wonder.
(I do not like to use Rense as a source of reference as he does entertain some questionable theories and attitudes but I do not have the time to hunt down the original article just now, I will find it though. I believe it was a Jewish publication).
BTW I am strongly against ANY fundamentalist religious sect that is attempting to undermine humanity to bring about their apocalyptic agendas or any group who feels their intangible "god" holds their race or religion in favour above all others. Organized fundamentalist religion is the great divider of humanity and the true enemy of peace on this world. (Be it Christianity, Judaism or Islam).

That said, I am very sorry to have raised that topic, causing such a monumental thread drift. If anybody has any quality links handy that could help explain the purpose of modern Zionists (now that they have their nation), I would greatly appreciate it. (PM me).
Again, I apologize for the insertion of the non-relevant topic to the thread but when the provocative, conservative double standard of what constitutes a "terrorist" is constantly evoked , I flip my lid.

Red Heifer

an article on Temple Institute.org about a failed attempt to engineer this end time instrument

Again I apologize and will try to stay on topic in future.


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, my search-engine skills may be lacking, but I fired up the thing and used a few different likely words and I can't find any discussion, exhaustively footnoted to a degree even Mimichekele would love, about the appropriateness of the "Zionist" designation for Christian fundamentalists who believe in the literal accuracy of the Book of Revelation.

Sowwy.


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Mishei
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posted 07 June 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for your clarification YoungFox.
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WingNut
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posted 07 June 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Doc, even that virulent racist Tourism Minister in Israel, during his recent visit to the US of A referred to christian zionists.

However, Youngfox, the red calf is important to end timers, both Jewsish and christian.

As was linked.

I don't think I would consider the comment antisemetic as the red calf/end times scenario ius common to both christians and Jews for different reasons. Jews because trhe red calf sets of a series of events that leads to the rebuilding of the temple and christians because the rebuilding of the temple leads to the conversion or mass death of non-believers. (I still find it amazing Jews would find common cause with these fanatics but occupation and strange bed fellows and all that.)

In any case, the reference was intnded as an insult and for that alone an apology is required. And before anyone begins pointing out how many I have insulted, and I have, I will defend myself by stating I have never insulted anyone's religious beliefs and I have only ever shown respect for religious beliefs. Even if I don't have one.

And I do not believe, mishei can correct me, that all Jews believe in the end times prophesies.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Youngfox.
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posted 07 June 2003 03:57 PM      Profile for Youngfox.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
look up Wingy
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WingNut
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posted 07 June 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, caught it.
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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Promise, guys, that I'm not going to extend this any further either, but specifically in answer to DrC:

Somewhere in the last couple of weeks, there was a thread -- or a digression on a thread -- on this very topic. The detail that sticks in my mind is that the Israeli minister of tourism accepted a trip to the U.S. to address some of these fundies, and they all had a bizarrely wonderful time together.

Now, I won't swear that the fundies in that article were calling selves Zionists, but I thought they were. Mind you, they were nutty enough that they might have been calling themselves Flowers, or Canadians, and it wouldn't have made a lot of difference.

I'd look at YF's links now, DrC.


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh.

I hate people with cable.


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah. It is in Numbers, not Revelation. *lightbulb*

(Excuse me, but I've just been reading YF's links. I was keen to know where that reference came from. Please continue with your regularly scheduled programming.)


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I sit corrected as to the correctness of using the term "Zionist" to refer to Christian fundamentalists.
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Smith
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posted 07 June 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I did not howl for Youngfox to be eliminated because I was not sure what he meant. His statement was by no means clear. I did register my displeasure at the comment, which I thought was nasty if not outright racist (and my reasons for being unsure of the meaning have been well documented by WingNut and others), and I don't think I or the others who posted before you deserve your condemnation for giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[ 07 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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Mishei
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posted 07 June 2003 06:11 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith, I agree with your sentiments. I did not call for him to be ousted. I felt that the statement he made was antisemitic. Until he clarified it, it certainly gave every impression of so being.

You see Smith what is sad is that Jews have so often been the victim of antisemitic hostility and have in the past (wrongly IMHO) remained silent. I think we can be forgiven if we have become a bit more assertive in confronting it. Waiting in the past led to tragedy. Today we confront, by so doing it either gets clarified or dealt with as has been the case here.

Wing you are quite right that Jews do not believe in the Evangelical concept of endtimes.


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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, lemme tell ya: the particular stiff, upright, repressed form of Presbyterianism I was brought up in does not approve of evangelism period. We are so private about our religion that we're embarrassed to tell you who we are. So, like, I can empathize.

I am so allergic to confessional religions. I mean, what is these people's problem??? The Christians especially: have they not read the story of the Pharisee and the publican in the temple? Pride: naughty naughty.

About Revelation: It really is not my favourite book. It is a most strange book, really, requiring a strong stomach. Some of the imagery is wonderfully compelling (the Four Horsemen), but overall, I would advise depressives to avoid this book for the time being, or at least to discuss it with your therapist.

I have no clear memory of Numbers. I'm more an Ecclesiastes, 1 Corinthians 13 sort of chap m'self. Job is hard but ok. Some of the later OT prophets are trippy but bizarre -- I mean: "I saw a flying roll" -- ?? Exegesis, anyone?


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Would that be the origin of the colloquial phrase "Take a flying copulation at a rolling donut"?
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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, DrC, you tell me what you make of Zechariah 5. I mean, honestly: read that chapter, and tell me what it is about.

"Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold: a flying roll." And that's just the first verse.

After that, we hear about the ephah. What?, I hear you ask, is an ephah? For millennia, DrC, I assure you, others have asked that question.

My Fang used to read Zechariah 5 back in his school in the 1940s, when required to do the honours at chapel. He read Zechariah 5 because he knew it would break up all his friends and thus get them into trouble for giggling in chapel. He could read it with a straight face because he had done it enough times in private to inure himself.


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 09:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess the Revised Standard Version doesn't quite have the same oomph.

And here's the King James Version.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scroll? SCROLL??? Where did those revisers get their Hebrew? Or their Greek? Or whatever it was they were revising?

But truly: does it make any MORE sense to you, trying "scroll"? Ok, apart from that it sounds cyber-modern?


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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 09:53 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the Revised Standard Version *was* retranslated direct from the original Greek and Hebrew, but a flying scroll sounds extremely bizarre to me.
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skdadl
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posted 07 June 2003 09:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whereas you can make a lot of sense of a flying roll???
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DrConway
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posted 07 June 2003 10:23 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A flying roll sounds a bit less bizarre. After all, I'm sure people have thrown buns and rolls in the air from time to time.
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WingNut
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posted 08 June 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"This joint operation was committed to confirm our people's united choice of holy war and resistance until the end of occupation over our land and holy places," the leaflet said.


Four Israelis killed

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Mishei
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posted 08 June 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Four Israelis killed

I take it you are condemning this action?

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skdadl
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posted 08 June 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is that site just giving me little boxes? Young Ironsides cannot read it.

And I can't find a similar story on British news sites.


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WingNut
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posted 08 June 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Why is that site just giving me little boxes? Young Ironsides cannot read it.

And I can't find a similar story on British news sites.



Hey, skdadl, go to google, type in Israel or Hamas or your combination of both and then hit enter. After it delivers results, click news. It will give you lots of sources. And to improve the results, on the right then click sort by date.

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skdadl
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posted 08 June 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see the problem.

It was a military target:

quote:
Abbas said he would resist pressure to crack down on the militants and would continue efforts to talk with them. "We will not allow anybody to drag us into a civil war," Abbas said Sunday.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath said Israel provoked the attacks by continuing restrictions on Palestinians and killing two Hamas militants Thursday night near the West Bank city of Tulkarem.



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WingNut
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posted 08 June 2003 01:19 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like reading the headlines. "Four Israelis die" as though only those lives matter.

And then:

Three Palestinian Freedom Fighters and Four Israeli Soldiers Killed in Gun Battle Gaza

At least they mentioned the four Israelis.

And finally, the BBC:


Seven killed in Middle East gun battle


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skdadl
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posted 08 June 2003 01:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I mean, that's why I went looking for British sources first (slow off the mark, though, weren't they?).

God save me from wading through the spin on Fox or MSNBC.


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Ray Peterson
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posted 09 June 2003 09:03 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And then:

Three Palestinian Freedom Fighters and Four Israeli Soldiers Killed in Gun Battle Gaza

At least they mentioned the four Israelis.



To me, it looks like they are mentioning the 4 Israeli's in a boastful way, not because they believe that "their lives matter".

quote:
Three Palestinian Freedom Fighters

Talk about spin.


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Smith
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posted 09 June 2003 09:10 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that was the point. Both sides spin the hell out of it.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 June 2003 09:35 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some people have so much harder time with simple points, smith.
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Ray Peterson
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posted 09 June 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In response to this

quote:
Well, I mean, that's why I went looking for British sources first (slow off the mark, though, weren't they?).

God save me from wading through the spin on Fox or MSNBC.



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skdadl
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posted 09 June 2003 10:16 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

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Courage
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posted 09 June 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Just as we are close to a process towards peace, it becomes clear as to what Hamas and the terrorists really want.

Hamas refuses to end violence



I suspect you can hardly understand what 'THEY' want....

Israeli violence to achieve national self determination = GOOD, JUST, PURE...

Palestinian violence to achieve national self determination = BAD, INJUST, SAVAGE...

Push them into a corner (or a bottle like drugged-cockroaches as one Israeli official recently put it) get ahold of all the levers of power (military, economy, natural resources, communications) and then ask for 'peace'....

This term 'peace' is canonised by silly westerners and Israeli supporters. As though an absence of violence were the only important issue - even though a complete cessation of violence based on the status quo would constitute a legitimisation of a half a century of ethnic cleansing and three decades of brutal military occupation and expanding settlements. This is what your 'peace' means Mishei.


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evenflow
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posted 09 June 2003 07:39 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Very well put courage. sobering words. my hats off to you.
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April Follies
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posted 09 June 2003 08:56 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It reminds me of the words of an African-American at one rally I attended: "When we have justice, then there will be peace." Then as now, of course, I was full of mental qualifiers as to exactly how much injustice is worth losing peace, but I'm just a born qualifier. Most of the time, anyhow.

Hamas and the Israeli settlers remind me of the "damned UVF and the cruel IRA" in Ireland, in many ways. I suppose that puts the IDF in the role of the British military in Northern Ireland. Actually, the comparison has a lot to recommend it, from the accusations of atrocities on various sides to the age-old song: "This land ain't your land, this land is MY land..."


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SHH
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posted 09 June 2003 10:31 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...but I'm just a born qualifier. Most of the time, anyhow.

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Michelle
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posted 09 June 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I probably won't be around when this thread hits a hundred, but it's almost there, so y'all know the routine...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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