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Author Topic: Sharon seeks to deny citizenship to anyone with a Palestinian parent
josh
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posted 29 May 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What 1930s German law does this remind me of? Hmmm. Let me think.

http://tinyurl.com/d02z


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 May 2003 08:18 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
N-u-r-e-m-b-e-r-g Laws? Do I get a prize? Huh? Huh?

Mishei's gonna come steamrollering down this thread to hollar in your face that you're spouting "dangerous words" and "crossing the line", you know, josh.

quote:
Labor party secretary general, Ophir Pines-Paz,
described the initiative as "a bad joke" and said
Sharon was using it to counteract the reactions
in the Likud to his support for the road map.
Pines-Paz said the amendment would be
anti-constitutional and racist. "It distinguishes
between one type of blood and another," he said.

Balad MK Azmi Bishara said the amendment would
make Israel "the only country in the world since
the fall of apartheid where people are
discriminated against on the basis of their blood
and their origin." Sharon's initiative "puts his
words about a Palestinian state in another light;
his motive is merely racial segregation," he
said.


Mishei should get a head start and start calling those guys "line-crossers" too for pointing out the discriminatory nature of the proposed amendment to the Citizenship Law (which, I might add, already is discriminatory in that it affords automatic Israeli citizenship to any Jewish person who wants to claim the Right of Return).

[ 29 May 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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josh
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posted 29 May 2003 08:21 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, he'll probably ignore it. Textbook public relations.
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Smith
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posted 29 May 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, at least there is significant opposition to it within the Israeli government.

I just hope that opposition is significant enough.


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Michelle
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posted 30 May 2003 12:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about we not talk about what Mishei will say until he comes in here and says it? We're just setting up this thread for a flame war by doing this.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 30 May 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, how about we talk about what Mishei will not say since it appears that it is highly unlikely he will respond. On the other hand, he could be waiting to find out the "party line."
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Mishei
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posted 30 May 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh and some others here you are being ...!!

The law as it is proposed is unacceptable. PERIOD.

But the Doc is right, as I would have guessed even before it has reached fruition you had to find a way to get a Nazi comparision in there.

Sadly this is the kind of bullshit ive come to expect from some of you.

edited to remove unecessary nomenclature

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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verbatim
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posted 30 May 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Balad MK Azmi Bishara said the amendment would make Israel "the only country in the world since the fall of apartheid where people are discriminated against on the basis of their blood and their origin."
I think this is sloppy wording, but the message is clear enough. People are discriminated against all over the globe because of their blood and origin. Canada is a great example. However, no-one is denied citizenship because of their blood or origin. It's an important distinciton to make.

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Smith
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posted 30 May 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, it's hard not to see the similarity, Mishei. Of course, one could also draw parallels with a whole bunch of other "blood" laws drawn up at various times.
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Mishei
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posted 30 May 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by verbatim:
I think this is sloppy wording, but the message is clear enough. People are discriminated against all over the globe because of their blood and origin. Canada is a great example. However, no-one is denied citizenship because of their blood or origin. It's an important distinciton to make.

I believe that in order to become a German citizen you must be a German by "blood". Immigrants cannot get german citizenship if I am not mistaken.

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josh
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posted 30 May 2003 04:37 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the comparison speaks for itself Mishei.

And the proposed law singles out Palestinians. It doesn't forbid the child of a Jewish-Turkish union from citizenship.


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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I believe that in order to become a German citizen you must be a German by "blood". Immigrants cannot get german citizenship if I am not mistaken.


You are mistaken. It has long been possible for immigrants to be "naturalized" in Germany, although I think the waiting period was much longer than here, eg.

But German citizenship law changed, round about 2000, to conform to EU standards. The bigger change was that anyone born in Germany was automatically a citizen; that had not been true before, if one's parents were not German. And then I think the waiting period for "naturalization" of immigrant workers was shortened.

The EU has standards. Maybe everyone hasn't achieved them yet, but everyone is supposed to be going in that direction.


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Mishei
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posted 30 May 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl,I appreciate the clarification.

As for the example speaking for itselfe Josh, certain things are self evident. The proposed law is BAD and smacks of racism. No more need be said. Accept for those who get their jollies by comparing Israel to nazis any chance they get.


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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that verbatim's point is worth munching on, though.

The basic problem is nationality itself. If you're going to have a nation, then immediately you trip over the issue of how you define the nationals.

We are all hoping that "blood" is something that good people can get over, maybe sometime in this century ... But what other basis looks like a healthy one to a serious democrat?

Maybe we have to look at places where problems have arisen. Commitment to place, eg: several European countries' treatment of immigrant labourers was indeed disgusting in the past, given how long large communities of such workers had been established not only in Germany but elsewhere.

I know that some people are going to appear and just oppose nations on principle. I understand the good intentions behind that position, but beyond thinking that it is impractical in the short term, I also think it is an impoverished if well-intentioned view in the long term. (But I don't have time to explain that now, and this is not the place. Sharon's bright idea, no question, is disgusting.)


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Mycroft_
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posted 30 May 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the rabbis are going to complain about this as in Orthodox Jewish law anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish so this suicide bomber is considered Jewish because he had a Jewish mother.
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Courage
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posted 30 May 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Skdadl,I appreciate the clarification.

As for the example speaking for itselfe Josh, certain things are self evident. The proposed law is BAD and smacks of racism. No more need be said. Accept for those who get their jollies by comparing Israel to nazis any chance they get.



You're hilarious - the law is racist, segratory, distinguishes citizenship based on predjudicial blood-ties, it demeans Palestinians as less worthy than other people and seeks to exclude large proportion of the Israeli population from the body politic - but it isn't anything like Nazism....

You could probably look a quacking, duck-billed, webbed-foot waddling water fowl in the face and say, "It's not a duck"....


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Mycroft_
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posted 30 May 2003 06:13 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for the example speaking for itselfe Josh, certain things are self evident. The proposed law is BAD and smacks of racism. No more need be said. Accept for those who get their jollies by comparing Israel to nazis any chance they get.

So I guess it's ok if we compare the law to those of apartheid South Africa rather than Nuremburg?

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tyoung
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posted 30 May 2003 06:16 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post

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Mycroft_
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posted 30 May 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Two interesting letters from this week's Canadian Jewish News:

quote:
Must seek common ground

Marvin Maurer’s letter about “ethnic cleansing” by Palestinians opposed to Israel’s statehood turns history on its head (“‘Ethnic cleansing’ unacceptable,” CJN, May 15).

First, Maurer denies the existence of any Palestinian “factions” that accept a two-state solution. What nonsense! On June 21, 2002, Sari Nusseibeh and some 650 others published a statement in the Arabic newspaper Al-Quds, supporting a plan “to live in peace side by side in two neighbouring countries.”

Second, “population transfer” was part of Zionist thought as early as 1895. This may come as a shock, but Tom Segev unmasks it in One Palestine Complete, by citing documents and quoting, among others, David Ben Gurion, Theodor Herzl, Vladimir Jabotinsky, Arthur Ruppin, Joseph Sprinzak, Menachem Ussishkin, Chaim Weizmann. A Committee on Population Transfer was formed in the 1930s (its minutes are in the Central Zionist Archive in Jerusalem).

Third, many Israeli acts of “ethnic cleansing” took place during the 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War. Doubters should read Meron Benvenisti’s Sacred Landscape.

I support Israel’s existence as a Jewish state, but I cannot be blind to the realities of its creation and ignore everything that might lead to a peaceful solution. Knowing what was done in our names helps us understand the Palestinians and find common ground between our peoples.

Bernard Katz
Toronto


quote:

Transfer Palestinians to Jordan

I have never been one to take a radical stand, but now with the “road map” peace formula on the table, peace finally seems to be close at hand.

Today’s news reports talk of “the roadblocks to peace” created by constant terror attacks. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is trying to talk peace with the new Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas as the terror strikes continue and he is not ordering any Israeli reprisals. He wants to keep the situation calm in the hopes of attaining a peace settlement with Israel’s hostile neighbours.

Originally, today’s “Palestinians” were nomadic, itinerant labourers who were imported into the Jordan River region by the Ottoman Turks in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Ottomans tried to settle these nomads into this area as a source of cheap labour.

Today, approximately 65 per cent of Jordan’s population is Palestinian. This must be recognized in any road map to peace if the present roadblocks are to be removed.
All roads from Israel to Jordan should be opened to one-way traffic for all the “Palestinians.” Jordan should be renamed “Palestine” to represent the true nature of its population. This road map to “Palestine and peace” should cause the emigration of all Palestinians (an indigenous, nomadic people of Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia). This could finally create a peace in the Middle East, as long as Jordan’s king does not try to massacre another 10,000 Palestinians, as his father did beginning in September 1970. The remaining Palestinians, scattered throughout the Middle East, should also emigrate to their true homeland on the east banks of the Jordan River. We will then see much less civil strife in this region and peace will guide the planets.

Harry Grunstein
Montreal


[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 May 2003 06:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thatth's dithpicable!
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Courage
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posted 30 May 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tyoung:


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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The thecond letter above thertainly ith.

Patronizing references to nomadic peoples are simply ignorant, historically ignorant, and deeply bigoted. The person who wrote that second letter is deeply to be pitied.

We were all nomadic peoples once, and most of us have been many times over. The ignorance. I can't get over the ignorance. What is being taught in our schools????


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tyoung
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posted 30 May 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post
I think the concern is more what is being taught in our churches, synagogues, temples, mosques etc...
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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2003 06:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
SO DEFEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!!!

Sorry for shouting, but there isn't much we can do about the religious institutions in the short term. Nor should we, if we are serious democrats.

We just gotta get the kids into good public schools, and make sure that we give their wee minds a good work-out there. Teach them critical thinking. Armour them against bigotry and ignorance.

And then let them go. And hope.


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tyoung
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posted 30 May 2003 07:01 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post
I think that's pretty much what's going on right now in schools, given the resources and system at hand. Bigotry does not stem from ignorance so much as it stems from misinformation. Someone who coasts through the public education system does not become a bigot because they know nothing, but rather by learning bigotted values elsewhere.
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Mycroft_
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posted 30 May 2003 07:03 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Harry Guenstein seems to be unable to tell the difference between Bedouins and Palestinians (sigh).
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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know, tyoung. We have to make it better. In this country, for sure, the school system should be an easy first line of defence. And yet it isn't.

And see how often on this board alone critics of the Middle Eastern kleptocracies have focused on the racial hatred taught to many of their young?

And yet those very critics repeatedly fail to draw what seems to me the obvious logical conclusion: excellent secular public school systems everywhere.

I wish I could do this in more detail right now, but I've already missed pumpkin hour. Demain.


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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
Harry Guenstein seems to be unable to tell the difference between Bedouins and Palestinians (sigh).

Please elaborate, Mycroft?

(I'm sure you're right, but you are talking to a lot of people -- including me -- whose main idea of the Bedou is derived from a -- beautiful, mind -- 1963 British movie.)


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Justice
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posted 30 May 2003 07:13 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon's suggested law is bad and racist period.

quote:
Third, many Israeli acts of “ethnic cleansing” took place during the 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War. Doubters should read Meron Benvenisti’s Sacred Landscape.

I won't deny this happened and I do believe the perpetrators should be brought to just a punished as harshly as possible.

However as much as Mr Harry Grunsteins letter is pure hate speech and perhaps legal proceedings should be brought against him points out an interesting fact which can be corroborated by many sources.

quote:
Jordan’s king does not try to massacre another 10,000 Palestinians, as his father did beginning in September 1970.

I've generally heard about 5,000 not 10,000 but even if it is only 5,000 the unlawful and unjust acts that were committed by Israel through all it's wars is peanuts compared to the Arabs. Not only what Arabs have done to Jew but what they have done themselves. Another example would be the mass graves currently being dug up in Iraq. If you want to bring people to justice why not start with the more serious crimes.

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 30 May 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bedouins are traditionally nomads. Palestinians are not. Also, Jordan is under Bedouin rule, not Palestinian.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 May 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Third, many Israeli acts of “ethnic cleansing” took place during the 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War. Doubters should read Meron Benvenisti’s Sacred Landscape.

I won't deny this happened and I do believe the perpetrators should be brought to just a punished as harshly as possible.


I agree, and I don't think being made Prime Minister has been harsh enough on these guys.


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Justice
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posted 30 May 2003 07:23 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
[quote]Originally posted by Mycroft:
Harry Guenstein seems to be unable to tell the difference between Bedouins and Palestinians (sigh).

Please elaborate, Mycroft?

(I'm sure you're right, but you are talking to a lot of people -- including me -- whose main idea of the Bedou is derived from a -- beautiful, mind -- 1963 British movie.)
[/QUOTE]

I think the king of Jordan is Bedouin but still there is about 60% Palestinians in Jordan.

Transfer is wrong and racist period it's irrelevant how they got there that's NAZI thinking.


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Justice
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posted 30 May 2003 07:25 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree, and I don't think being made Prime Minister has been harsh enough on these guys.

I agree but did you read the rest of my comment. What do you think about the suggestion that even more should be done to punish those people who commited even worse crimes in Arab states?


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Courage
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posted 30 May 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
Not only what Arabs have done to Jew but what they have done themselves. Another example would be the mass graves currently being dug up in Iraq. If you want to bring people to justice why not start with the more serious crimes.

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]



This argument is a little flimsy because of your deployment of the vague notion of 'Arab'. While there is a certain truth to the idea that 'Arabs' from Morrocco to Iraq see themselves as a single entity, the classification is very loose and is as often respected 'in the breach' as not. While they do share a common linguistic base, a certain feeling of attachment to ancient 'Arabness', and a kind of community brought by a few generations of sustained pan-Arab nationalism (notice how even the phrase pan-Arab denotes a kind of coming together of various distinct types) there are such massive cultural differences across that area that to talk of them as a cohesive, tightly-knit whole can be a little misleading depending on what we are describing. Add to that the adoption of European-style state-based nationalism and the terrain becomes even less even. And the 'little differences' are often huge. Careful study of ethnic conflict shows that seemingly trivial differences between peoples who from outside appear to be nearly identical are often elevated and fetishised into sublime objects which demand such emotive affinty that to question their importance seems absurd to the groups in conflict (I actually include the difference between many of the 'Jews' from Iraq now in Israel and 'Arabs' in this catagory. In so many ways they are the same, BUT...). So from outside we see 'Arab on Arab' but from inside, it looks very different. And in this they are much like everyone else.

Also, there is a certain bias in your use of the descriptive term 'Arab' as though the apparent 'sameness' of them ought to be felt by them as the supreme bond - as though 'Arab on Arab' violence, were some how worse because they are 'the same'. But this is a kind of essentialism; a racism on our part. We inflict them with our perception of their essential 'sameness' while they see and feel themselves, particularly during times of conflict, as quite different. Moreover, it is though broad cultural catagories (nation, ethnie, linguistic group) were some privileged catagory to which we owe our ultimate fidelity: an elevated (sublimated) moral object which demands a certain reverence above all other things. And not only does it make for sloppy description, in the case of your argument it makes for ethnically biased morality; which one can easily see can also go the other way and be used 'against' other ethnicities. Further, when we analyse 'Arabs' in this way, we deny a certain amount of their particularity and singularity as 'non-Arab' (ethnic, political, cultural, familial, etc.) subjects. Upon close inspection we see that 'they', just like everyone else have conflicts over territory, resources, nationalism, ethnic and cultural differences, religious doctrine, and just plain old political ideology.

In other words, to claim that 'Arab on Arab' violence is somehow 'worse' than other violence is to allow certain perceptive catagories - in this case 'nationalism' - to infect our moral thinking. In addition, it can also get in the way of us looking at conflict involving 'Arabs' with the same lens that we would use on conflict in our own neck of the woods...

See what I mean?

That said, things are very complex when we try to apply any of this to reality - this notion of 'Arab', is sometimes invoked by Arabs themselves in certain circumstances, one of which being apropos of the Israel/Palestine conflict. There are often appeals to a certain solidarity among 'Arabs' and in this way, they also apply the same nationalistic conceptual/moral bias that you have invoked. But in cases of conflict between 'Arabs' surely the idea is far from anyone's mind. What this speaks to is the incredible fluency of subjectivity - of personal and collective identification. And to understand the political consequences of this flow, we have to see how it operates in our own, and others' arguments for and against certain things. For instance, the wide catagory 'Arab' is often used as a political tool by those supporting crimes of racism and oppression by the Israeli regime. The arguments run like this - since 'They' are all Arabs, why don't the Palestinians just go live with all the other 'Arabs', because they are 'the same'. Or sometimes you get the old ditty, 'there is already thousands of square miles of 'Arab' land and states, and Israel is only a few hundred miles across and back. So a Palestinian state isn't 'fair' because 'Arabs' already have so many states. Another of my favorites is the denial/conceptual genocide of Palestinians: "They don't exist - they are just Arabs, and there are no ethnic differences among 'Arabs'.....

We have to be careful. While Palestinians themselves may call on 'Arabness' as a political tool in their own right, there is really no doubting that they do it with a sense of their particularity within a larger whole. It is important, I think not to deny them (no one really) this essential flux of identity and not bias the catagory when making moral arguments about the conflict.

Does that make any sense?

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Justice
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posted 30 May 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You ignore the issue and waste your time trying to pin on me something you can not. Your comment and description is very narrow minded.

I don't ended to make them same if they don't wish you knew what I meant and you twisted it to create the image you want to see in your head.

I never once said the Palestinians should live among other Arabs I even denounced transfer from the west bank and Gaza, Same as I wouldn't force Jewish transfer or force them to live among Palestinians. Please not I didn't say they can not I said they shouldn't be forced.

quote:
as though 'Arab on Arab' violence, we some how 'worse' because they are 'the same'

they are not worse because they are the same. They are worse because the crimes were worse, Because the crimes were more heinous and the loss of life was that much greater. The connection is Irrelevant. The fact is that these nations have committed very serious crimes against humanity more so then any of the Crimes that Israel has done. This doesn't mean Israel's crimes should go unpunished but it would be a racist and grave injustice if the crimes of these nations were to go unpunished and to continue being ignored.

[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 30 May 2003 11:02 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why doesn't anyone ever refer to "white on white" violence when talking about European wars?
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Justice
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posted 30 May 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know what? thats fine too.
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DrConway
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posted 30 May 2003 11:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I believe that in order to become a German citizen you must be a German by "blood". Immigrants cannot get german citizenship if I am not mistaken.

Well, it's weird. But they base it partly on geography, so if you came from anywhere that was sat on by Germans and can do a half-assed job of proving your ancestry goes back to at least Bismarck's time, you're golden.

Having said that Germany has been loosening the restrictions on its citizenship laws, as I recall.

As well, a thought occurs to me. These are largely West German laws that have been expanded to cover all of Germany.

Did East Germany have similarly restrictive legislation about who could get citizenship and who could not? (Even "socialist" nations can be full of jingoists. )


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 30 May 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what makes a 2000-year-old book a valid mystical basis for a claim to a piece of land that the Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and Arabs have sat on since 2000-plus years ago?

Yes there are few, maybe 250,00 fanatics that believe this and they have to be dealt with. but as far as the rest of Israel is concerened it's not take a look at my last point on this threadPlan for instant Israeli security


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 30 May 2003 11:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
You ignore the issue and waste your time trying to pin on me something you can not. Your comment and description is very narrow minded.

My apologies if we are having a little dissonance here. I can't claim to 'get the whole thing' in each of your posts - that's why we discuss, to try to come closer together. Now, lets' try to cut through some of the conflict here, shall we?

quote:
I never once said the Palestinians should live among other Arabs I even denounced transfer from the west bank and Gaza, Same as I wouldn't force Jewish transfer or force them to live among Palestinians. Please not I didn't say they can not I said they shouldn't be forced.

I didn't say you did. I only suggested that the catagory that you used (and the manner in which you used it) is problematic. Perhaps you didn't mean it and it was a slip of the mind. However, my point stands regardless, I think. If one deploys the catagory of 'Arab' in the way implied (intentionally or not) the consequences include what I described.

quote:
they are not worse because they are the same. They are worse because the crimes were worse, Because the crimes were more heinous and the loss of life was that much greater.
The connection is Irrelevant.

Hold on. You connected them by comparing them. Two wrongs don't make a right. Second, how do we compare 'suffering'? Do we relegate ourselves to macabre calculus (more bodies, more bad)? I don't think we can do that without entering into some bizarre moral territory. Furthermore, regardless of what has been done elsewhere, your point reeks of a kind of diversion from the topic - Israeli crimes against Palestinians. There are very real crimes being committed daily by Israel against Palestinians, and no amount of investigation or punishment of other crimes is going to change that. Moreover, to minimize the suffering of Palestinians because of some arbitrary catagory of 'heinousness' is crude and largely unsympathetic - and I think it leads to a kind of poor consequentialist morality.

quote:
The fact is that these nations have committed very serious crimes against humanity more so then any of the Crimes that Israel has done.

The point is that two wrongs don't make a right. And if the crime is being measured against 'humanity', then Israeli crimes are just as bad. Moreover, you apply a kind of 'collective suffering' to these things, which I don't think jibes with the idea of 'humanity'. 'Humanity' in this case not applying to simply the mass of humans on the planet, but to a certain conception of human subjectivity, of individuality, of the unique possibilities of each and every person. To in the same breath compare crimes based on this catagory of 'collective suffering' (more bodies more bad) is contradictory.

Thousands of people are imprisoned daily in the West Bank. Most have lost a family member or neighbour over the years to IDF fire of one kind or another. How can you possibly say - "well Palestinians, your suffering isn't THAT bad"? Suffering is felt individually, not collectively - so any reference to the 'numbers' is strange indeed. Moreover, this subjectivity is just what the conception of 'humanity' used in 'crimes against humanity' is. (This kind of argument has problems actually, but for the sake of this discussion, I'll stick to it.) It's similar to the argument of many trite Holocaust deniers/anti-semites - well, if ONLY 4 million Jews were killed, it can't have been THAT bad....


quote:
This doesn't mean Israel's crimes should go unpunished but it would be a racist and grave injustice if the crimes of these nations were to go unpunished and to continue being ignored.

True, though I don't think they are 'being ignored', exactly. Didn't we just hear for month after tedious month about how bad 'Saddam' was, and all the horrible things he did to 'his OWN people'? Moreover, your numbers on 'Black September' are a little high, I suspect to help your case on magnitude. Most estimates are around 2000 deaths among Palestinians. Without getting into the 'numbers game' with you, your magnitude argument falls apart when we realise that almost that many Palestinians have been killed in the past 3 years alone - a large percentage of which were civilians. But I object to your argument from magnitude actually. I don't think we can really measure the 'heinousness' of anyone's suffering beyond a certain point. Is dying by 'gas' really that much worse than dying from an exploded tank shell?
[ 30 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]
[/QUOTE]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 30 May 2003 11:58 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
[quote]
Third, many Israeli acts of “ethnic cleansing” took place during the 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War. Doubters should read Meron Benvenisti’s Sacred Landscape.

I won't deny this happened and I do believe the perpetrators should be brought to just a punished as harshly as possible. [/quote]


It's not a question if it that bad or not it's question of double standard. Israel should be held to a hire moral then Lebanon??? I didn't say Israel should be ignored but it neighbors in the middle east along with many other countries have tried to hide their crimes by turning the world attention on Israel. When is the last time we heard about how well the Palestinians were being treated in Lebanon or Jordan or any other country where there maybe refugees in the Middle East. The Middle Eastern news papers are covered in Israel did this and Israel did that but do you hear about Lebanon or any other country. Israel gets as much coverage as Iraq and a million times more then the Congo. How does this make sense? And they say Jews control the papers so what if Izzy Asper owns canwest Media. Doesn't seem as if the press has forgotten Israel but the Congo well no big deal only a couple Million.

And

quote:
2000 deaths among Palestinians. Without getting into the 'numbers game' with you, your magnitude argument falls apart when we realise that almost that many Palestinians have been killed in the past 3 years alone

Black September was one month

The point is yes Israeli crimes have to be dealt with but don't see any chance of them being forgotten yet there are mass graves all over the world that the criminals will never be brought to justice. To hate Israel serves others well. Especially many Europeans today feel relieved ":look what we did to the Jews wasn't so bad what their doing to the Palestinians is worse" The middle eastern countries "don't look at us look at them, they're worse and if we did something bad, It’s because they made us" Talk about lack of accountability.


not about magnitude it's about accountability and double racist standards

[ 31 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 31 May 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 31 May 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 31 May 2003 06:49 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
not about magnitude it's about accountability and double racist standards

Let's put magnitude under the magnifying glass and be about accountability, shall we?

Here you say the issue is "not about magnitude" [sic]. Above you said, "they are not worse because they are the same. They are worse because the crimes were worse, Because the crimes were more heinous and the loss of life was that much greater" - clearly implying that the issue is magnitude - i.e. macabre accounting.

Double standards? You bet. Now, so I can account for your standards, which of this double set are you about?

[ 31 May 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 31 May 2003 07:22 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I said Israel should be accountable yet nothing is being done about those at all. That's what makes it even worse. You want to compare UN resolutions on Israel compared with the rest of the world. Now that's double standard.

You are the one who is completely trying to ignore these crimes I never once even tried to ignore Israeli crimes.

I hear Israel, Israel, and Israel all the time. Want to talk about the others? Is there not enough to talk about? Hmmm yeah double standards it hurts to much. It's to humiliating. That's not courage that cowardice. Humility is the greatest virtue of all but there isn't much in this world. It takes a lot of courage to admit your wrong. I admitted Israel was wrong many times but why can you once, once say yes they were very bad too and there is much to be fixed.

[ 31 May 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 June 2003 02:21 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]I said Israel should be accountable yet nothing is being done about those at all.

Why don't you be specific? Which 'those' are you talking about? For instance, did not Iraq just get attacked in part for 'those'? Yes. So what's your argument? What are 'those'?

quote:
That's what makes it even worse. You want to compare UN resolutions on Israel compared with the rest of the world. Now that's double standard.

I did no such thing. However, if you find the topic of Israel too narrow, start a different thread, as this one is dedicated to Israel...

quote:
You are the one who is completely trying to ignore these crimes I never once even tried to ignore Israeli crimes.

How have I 'ignored' them? I spoke of two instances you mentioned - Iraq (the Shiia mass graves) and Jordan. How can that be called 'ignoring', exactly? Perhaps you have trouble reading? I can help.


quote:
I hear Israel, Israel, and Israel all the time. Want to talk about the others? Is there not enough to talk about?

Note the title at the top of the thread. If you wish to speak of other subjects, start a thread, see if you get interest.

quote:
I admitted Israel was wrong many times but why can you once, once say yes they were very bad too and there is much to be fixed.

Blah, blah, blah. If we look back, we find that I did speak very specifically to your case. You sought comparisons, so I made them. I quote:

quote:
Didn't we just hear for month after tedious month about how bad 'Saddam' was, and all the horrible things he did to 'his OWN people'? Moreover, your numbers on 'Black September' are a little high, I suspect to help your case on magnitude. Most estimates are around 2000 deaths among Palestinians. Without getting into the 'numbers game' with you, your magnitude argument falls apart when we realise that almost that many Palestinians have been killed in the past 3 years alone - a large percentage of which were civilians. But I object to your argument from magnitude actually. I don't think we can really measure the 'heinousness' of anyone's suffering beyond a certain point. Is dying by 'gas' really that much worse than dying from an exploded tank shell?

Please try reviewing our series of posts again.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 June 2003 05:18 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, you're bringing up topics that no one else on this board has brought up. Who here said Jews control the media (except for one poster we had who was, IIRC, summarily banned)? Do you really think most Europeans are stupid or racist enough to think that Israeli crimes excuse or mitigate the Holocaust?

quote:
You want to compare UN resolutions on Israel compared with the rest of the world. Now that's double standard.

But aren't most of the resolutions on Israel unenforceable? The US has seen to it that although the UN can pass a million resolutions on Israel, it can't DO anything about any of them.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 June 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you really think most Europeans are stupid or racist enough to think that Israeli crimes excuse or mitigate the Holocaust?

Yes Many Europeans

quote:
But aren't most of the resolutions on Israel unenforceable? The US has seen to it that although the UN can pass a million resolutions on Israel, it can't DO anything about any of them.

Thank God for that or Israel would have been long gone.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 June 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, I pity you.

The question was, Do you think most Europeans are stupid or racist enough, ... ? etc. You said yes. You are ignorant.

First, you're not supposed to be talking in such terms on babble. But beyond that, such ignorance is pitiable.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 June 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I said yes Many notice but not most, and I didn't call them all racist. I think that's the new kind of anti-Semitism people are talking about and it is quite wide spread people want to be apologetic to themselves people are always looking for excuses it's only natural.

It's a very sad situation there is so much bad going on in the world. So the Americans choose to make Iraq their scape goat. Well most of the rest of the world focuses on Israel. I don't imply anyone to be racist but narrow minded and ignorant perhaps. I'm deeply ashamed of certain things Israel has done but many Europeans like to play down that shame. It's not about the Jews or that they actually hate the Jews. They just want to comfort themselves. Many Middle Eastern countries it's different they have no shame about taking life. The only shame they have is when someone hurts their pride, their ego when they have been humiliated by loosing a battle that they started.

It's a very sad situation there is so much bad going on in the world. So the Americans choose to make Iraq their scape goat. Well most of the rest of the world focuses on Israel. I don't imply anyone to be racist but narrow minded and ignorant perhaps. I'm deeply ashamed of certain things Israel has done but many Europeans like to play down that shame. It's not about the Jews or that they actually hate the Jews. They just want to comfort themselves. For Many Middle Eastern countries it's different they have no shame about taking life. The only shame they have is when someone hurts their pride or their ego, , their ego when they have been humiliated by loosing a battle that they started.

Where do you think all this publicity for Israel comes from? Many Europeans and prominent figures have said Israel's Human rights abuses are worse then the holocaust. I'm sure this makes a lot of people feel better.

[ 01 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 June 2003 12:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is not about bad publicity for Israel. This thread is about the new law proposed in Israel to deny citizenship to anyone with a Palestinian parent. Let's talk about that instead of deflecting the issue.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 June 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This thread is about the new law proposed in Israel to deny citizenship to anyone with a Palestinian parent.

It's BAD Period. You won't find here many people who will deny it.

That’s also why I started the other thread. Specially for Courage
HRW Mid-East

[ 01 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 01 June 2003 01:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine. Let's just keep this one on topic. If there's no more to say on this topic, then the thread will die. I'm just tired of threads on Israel getting derailed into the same old same old. I, for one, think this is a horrifying development and would like to see it discussed rather than derailed.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 June 2003 01:20 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think that's the new kind of anti-Semitism people are talking about and it is quite wide spread people want to be apologetic to themselves people are always looking for excuses it's only natural.

Well, if you really think that, that's pretty sad for you.

quote:

Many Middle Eastern countries it's different they have no shame about taking life. The only shame they have is when someone hurts their pride, their ego when they have been humiliated by loosing a battle that they started.

Yes, you're right, Arabs are just infantile barbarians.

quote:

Where do you think all this publicity for Israel comes from? Many Europeans and prominent figures have said Israel's Human rights abuses are worse then the holocaust.

Such as?

I too would like to discuss the actual Israeli law. What chance does it have of passing?

[ 01 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 01 June 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's bad Period, I don't think there of much of a chance it will pass in the Knesset. And you can be sure of the left wing Zionist groups (Like Shalom Achsav, Labour and Meretz) will make a riot over it and protest before things go really too far.

I fact I feel he it would be easy for anyone who wanted to appeal this to Israel's Supreme Court. It would be breaking Israel's basic laws and contradicting it's declaration of independence.


Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

quote:


Acquisition of nationality by birth is granted to:
1. Persons who were born in Israel to a mother or a father who are Israeli citizens.
2. Persons born outside Israel, if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship, acquired either by birth in Israel, according to the Law of Return, by residence, or by naturalization.
3. Persons born after the death of one of their parents, if the late parent was an Israeli citizen by virtue of the conditions enumerated in 1. and 2. above at the time of death.
4. Persons born in Israel, who have never had any nationality and subject to limitations specified in the law, if they:
o apply for it in the period between their 18th and 25th birthday and
o have been residents of Israel for five consecutive years, immediately preceding the day of the filing of their application.


To pass the suggested law would be a violation of points 1 and 2

[ 01 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 June 2003 01:45 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, if you really think that, that's pretty sad for you.

What you really should say is it's sad for any Jew. It exist it can't be denied it's pretty difficult to control. People have their comfort zones. They are raised in certain ways and don't over forget humility isn't the greatest virtue for no reason.

quote:
Yes, you're right, Arabs are just infantile barbarians.

Notice my careful choice of the word many once again. Not all, not most, Not even Arabs. Please be careful don't make me into a racist when I'm not using generalizations.

quote:
Such as?

I knew would ask that

quote:
Greta Duisenberg, wife of the President of the European Central Bank, "Israeli Occupation Worse Than that of the Nazi's"

Where does that come from???


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 June 2003 01:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I too would like to discuss the actual Israeli law. What chance does it have of passing?

Okay, but see, the way to get back on topic isn't by writing a whole bunch of rebuttals to the off-topic arguments made and then at the end of that claiming that we should get back on topic. That's just trying to get the last word in, and it doesn't work because now of course Justice will want to respond to your off-topic rebuttals to his off-topic remarks, etc. and so forth...


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 June 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry Michelle I had to reply to smith as you can see in my 3rd from last post not much chance at all.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 June 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know. And I would direct my comments to you as well. She felt she had to reply to you. You felt you had to reply to her. Etc. etc. etc.

Do it in a new thread.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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Babbler # 3851

posted 01 June 2003 02:22 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just an observation from an outsider who has had an opportunity to review a number of threads here.

1. Mishei and Justice, the only 2 who seem to support Israel in a relatively fair minded way, are consistantly attacked here without great reason.

While I do not agree with all their points, the level of attack and verbal assault they go through here is inexplicable. Can those who engage in such attacks not see how infantile it really is? Every time you attack them personally those like us who read more than post begin to wonder why? You lose your points totally and we sympathize with them .

2. I have read many of Skdadls posts here and elsewwhere and they are usually pointed, clever with a real biting humour. However when it comes to Israel she seems to lose much perspective. Her debate with Mishei over his issue regarding his mother was sad. Why was that necessary? I think she owes him an apology for that one.

3. Smith cannot seem to let anything go when it comes to Mishei especially. Much of it is unecessary and I hope she can reign in her temper it does her argument little good, in fact, she seems more personal than able to debate.

Sorry I know this is not exactly on topic but I dont get on here all that often given my age and accessibilty to the internet so I just had to get this off my chest. I mean no harm and am only trying to be constructive.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 01 June 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Never mind.

[ 01 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 June 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Damned if we do; damned if we don't, eh, chick?

It makes me want to cry, y'know. I feel so powerless, reading that and knowing I can't respond in public.

If this were the Waffle thirty years ago, I would rise on a point of personal privilege, and I would be respected for doing that. In public.

But ... We suck it up, eh, chick?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 June 2003 05:54 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay. At the risk of being told to take it to PMs, I really don't see how my or skdadl's particular relationship with Mishei is Zisel's business, and I don't see why conflicts that did not occur on this thread (and, to the best of my knowledge, are over) have to be revisited here.

[ 01 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 June 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't worry about the "unable to reply" feeling. Frustrating, yes, but in fact people who read these threads are perfectly capable of seeing how each participant is conducting him or herself. Obviously, conclusions on that basis will be coloured by their view of the issues, but then, that sort of bias won't change no matter what one says.

Stick to discussing the issues, and those who choose to make it about personalities will expose themselves perfectly well. I offer myself as Exhibit A, since I've just been doing just that.

On the issues, then:

1) The provision being discussed is accused of being ethically wrong and even racist.

2) Yes, there exist many areas of the world where other very bad and wrong things are being done. Some have threads of their own here (Aceh; Congo; Myanmar). Ditto Middle East; problems in Iraq have recently beem much under discussion for obvious reasons. This in no way detracts from the fact of (1). To turn the discussion to (2) is an argumentative fallacy known as the non sequitur - the specific case thereof known as the "red herring".

3) While acknowledging (2), once we note it and its lack of effect on (1), we can go back to discussing (1). You can break it down pretty simply:

Are the facts of the case as presented? If not, what are the correct circumstances?

If so: Is it ever right to deny a child citizenship in the country of one birth-parent based on the citizenship (or lack thereof) of the other birth-parent?

If not: This proposed law is obviously wrong. If so: what are the circumstances where such a thing would be right, and do they apply here? Isn't using ethnicity to determine citizenship intrinsically racist?


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 June 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zisel, that was totally unnecessary. I asked everyone to get back on topic and it's really lousy of you to try to get the last word in such a cheap way knowing that the others will feel they can't respond after I have repeatedly asked people to get back on topic.

I'm sorry, skdadl and Smith, I realize it would be nice to be able to respond to this kind of annoying armchair psychologizing, but I'm going to close this thread because obviously it will just not get back on topic again. I would love to see a new thread started on this very same topic, and I'll try to keep a better eye on it for people trying to derail it again.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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