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Author Topic: When will Israel dismantle its terrorist infrastructure?
WingNut
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posted 09 May 2003 02:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
''We are doing what (Israeli Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon promised but has failed to do: drive these sons of Arab whores from the Land of Israel,'' said Shapiro, 42, who moved here with his wife and four children 3 years ago from Brooklyn. ''If he won't get rid of the Muslim filth, then we will.''

src: http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010904/3599125s.htm



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josh
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posted 09 May 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately, too high a proportion of these nuts just got off the boat from Brooklyn, whereupon they are accorded the right of citizenship. Meanwhile, Arabs whose families have lived on the land for generations live under occupation.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 May 2003 03:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes find the most extreme and without context make it appear mainstrem.

Well then how about this from the Arab mainstream:

quote:
“No other nation in ancient and modern times has carried the banner of fraud, evil and treachery as has the Jewish nation. No other human race throughout history or from anywhere in the world has acted in such a cruel and corrupt manner and provoked such conflicts between nations as has the Jewish race.” (pp. 23-24).

Published by: Dar al-Salam, Cairo, Egypt
Year Published: 2001
The author: Dr. Abdallah Nasih Alwan

anti-semitism from Arab states


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skdadl
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posted 09 May 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hebron does seem a particular disaster, does it not? I'm no expert on local differences, but even through the popular press, I've gathered that that settlement is unusually fanatical and confrontational.

Ha'aretz is right. The Hebron settlement has got to go. So do the others, of course, but the incidents documented here are atrocities, and suggest something incurable if this community is allowed to persist.


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WingNut
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posted 09 May 2003 03:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, so it is okay Mishei? So all that Dr. Abdallah Nasih Alwan has to do is find an example of Jewish racism to justify what he wrote?
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Mishei
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posted 09 May 2003 03:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those are your words Wing. I have no idea what you are babbling about.

I was just pointing out that two can play your game and really it has no purpose other than to rev us up.


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skdadl
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posted 09 May 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You don't want to talk about Hebron, do you, Mishei?
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DaddySno
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posted 09 May 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe when the Palestinians stop doing this :

quote:
Here’s an eye-opening report on Palestinian violations of the so-called “roadmap to peace,” covering just the first week since the plan was announced:
I. "Cease All Violence"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map states: "In Phase 1 [May 2003], the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence."

What They Did During Week #1: During week #1, April 29 - May 5, 2003, there were at least 22 terrorist attacks or attempted attacks, in which 3 people were murdered and 64 were wounded:

April 29: Shots fired at Israeli soldiers near Bethlehem ... Bomb planted west of Jenin.
April 30: Suicide bombing outside a cafe in Tel Aviv; three murdered, 55 wounded. Hamas and Abu Mazen's Fatah movement both claimed responsibility for the attack ... Terrorists intercepted trying to attack Elon Moreh ... Shooting attack on an Israeli motorist between Ofra and Shilo ... Attack on an Israeli policeman north of Jerusalem; one wounded ... Two mortar rockets fired at Gush Katif ... Terrorist intercepted on his way to carry out an attack near Jenin.
May 1: Shooting attack on Israeli soldiers in the Sajaiya camp in Gaza; eight wounded ... Car-bomb discovered in the Samaria region ... Three terrorists intercepted trying to attack Gush Katif ... Attacking on Israeli motorists between Jerusalem and Gush Katif.
May 2: Bomb planted at the Atarot airport in northern Jerusalem.
May 3: Mortar rockets fired into Gush Katif.
May 4: Mortar rockets fired into Gush Katif ... Shooting attack on Israeli soldiers near Kadim ... Shooting attack on Israeli soldiers in southern Gaza ... Three shooting attacks on Israeli soldiers in the Jenin district ... Bomb attack on Israeli soldiers near the Israel-Egypt border.
May 5: Five mortar rockets fired into Gush Katif.

II. "Call for Recognizing Israel and Ending Violence"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map obligates the Palestinian Arabs to "issue an unequivocal statement reiterating Israel's right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional cease-fire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere."

What They Did During Week #1: No such statement was issued by any Palestinian Arab leader. In his first speech as prime minister, delivered before the Palestinian Legislative Council on April 29, 2003, Abu Mazen made reference to "the need to end the Arab-Israeli conflict peacefully" but did not issue an unequivocal statement about Israel's right to exist in peace and security. Nearly all references to Israel in his speech referred to "Israeli aggression" and the like. Nor did Abu Mazen's speech call for an end to violence against Israelis anywhere; he said: "We denounce terrorism by any party and in all its shapes and forms both because of our religious and moral traditions and because we are convinced that such methods do not lend support to a just cause like ours, but rather destroy it." However, since Abu Mazen and other PA officials have never regarded the murder of Israelis as terrorism but rather as "legitimate resistance," his statement cannot be considered a call to Palestinian Arabs to stop murdering Israelis.

Moreover, as recently as March 3, 2003, Mazen told the newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat that the murder of Jews beyond the pre-1967 border is legitimate because it constitutes an act of opposition to "the occupation."

III. "Arrest, Disrupt, and Restrain Terrorists"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map obligates the Palestinian Arabs to "undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere."

What They Did During Week #1: There were no reports of any arrests of terrorists by the Palestinian Authority.

IV. "Confiscate Terrorists' Weapons"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map obligates the Palestinian Arabs to "commence confiscation of illegal weapons."

What They Did During Week #1: There were no reports of the PA seizing any terrorists' weapons. In his first speech as prime minister, delivered before the Palestinian Legislative Council on April 29, 2003, Abu Mazen said "the unauthorized possession of weapons, with its direct threat to the security of the population, is a major concern that will be relentlessly addressed." He did not say the weapons would be confiscated; he did not even call on Hamas and Islamic Jihad to surrender their weapons. Moreover, the phrase "unauthorized" provides a potential loophole, since the PA could "authorize" Hamas and Islamic Jihad to possess weapons.

V. "Dismantle the Terrorist Infrastructure"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map obligates the Palestinian Arabs to carry out the "dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

What They Did During Week #1: The PA did not outlaw Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, or any other terrorist groups; there were no reports of the PA shutting down any bomb factories or terrorists' training camps; the PA continued to ignore Israel's 45 requests for the extradition of terrorists; there were no reports of the PLO leadership punishing PLO factions that are engaged in terrorism, such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP).

VI. "End All Incitement"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map requires that "all official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel."

What They Did During Week #1: The PA's official newspapers, television, and radio continued to broadcast a steady stream of anti-Israel, anti-American, and pro-violence incitement, and PA officials continued to make inciting statements.

For example, Palestinian Media Watch reported that on April 30, 2003, PA Television began broadcasting a new music video "calling for the murder of Jews in the disputed areas, even showing scenes of Jewish teenage girls and a Jewish couple, who are among those targeted for death by PA TV. The music video shows scenes of masked gunman firing automatic rifles, aerial views of Jewish towns, and as mentioned, Jews who are targeted for murder: a man walking his wife, a group of teenage girls, and a soldier. The words that repeat throughout the music video:

"From the mountain of fire [Nablus] came the rebels...
Everywhere there are settlements.
Oh brave Nablus, keep the cauldron ablaze
Pour over the settlements great flames
Foreigners have no place on this land
Foreigners have no place where Shahids [Died for Allah] were killed."

In addition, there was no change in the PA's policy of inciting support for terror by publicly praising terrorists, naming streets after them, and paying salaries to imprisoned terrorists and their families. Moreover, in his first speech as prime minister, delivered before the Palestinian Legislative Council on April 29, 2003, Abu Mazen called the terrorists imprisoned in Israel "heroes" and demanded that they be set free.

VII. "End Arab States' Support for Terror"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map states that during May 2003, "Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror."

What They Did During Week #1: There were no reports of any Arab states cutting off their support for Palestinian Arab terrorist groups.

VIII. "Consolidate Security Forces"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map obligates the Palestinian Arabs to undertake "consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption"; and "all Palestinian security organizations are consolidated into three services reporting to an empowered interior minister."

What They Did During Week #1: The Israeli daily Ha'aretz reported on May 5, 2003, that "five different PA security organizations, including Force 17 and the General Intelligence, remain under the direct command of Chairman Yasir Arafat" and have not been consolidated under the control of the Interior Minister. Military Intelligence, the National Security Forces, and the naval forces are also under Arafat's control. Only the remaining two security agencies are under the Interior Minister. Arafat's five are under the control of a newly-created agency, the National Security Council, chaired by Arafat and his close aide Hanni al-Hassan.

IX. "Institute Democratic Reforms"

What They Must Do During May 2003: The Road Map requires the Palestinian Arabs to undertake a number of steps to transform their brutal, corrupt dictatorial regime into a full-fledged democracy, including "action on a credible process to draft constitution for Palestinian statehood"; the holding of "free, open, and fair elections"; and "steps to achieve genuine separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for this purpose."

What They Did During Week #1: No such steps have yet been taken.



From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 May 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think he does, skdadl, but look how upset he is. I fail to understand his anger. And why would I want to get him all revved up?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 May 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DaddySno:

You, or anyone else who wants to discuss the "road map," should start a thread on the road map. I am going to ask Michelle to watch for that kind of diversion on this thread.

(I can hardly resist a matching post of mine own, though: What did Sharon do in Week 1? He started rabitting on about the right of return, which isn't at the moment on the table, incurable obstructionist that he is. Too cute.)

Michelle: make the thread drift stop. This is a thread about Hebron.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 May 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
You don't want to talk about Hebron, do you, Mishei?
Give me a break I just saw this post a short time ago...sheesh!!

As for Hebron, I am not a supporter of the settlers in this area. I have stated so many times.


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skdadl
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posted 09 May 2003 04:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough. Thanks, Mishei. I recognize that they are a particular group. It's very sad, isn't it? But we have to break through the sadness. So hard, but we must learn.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 09 May 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You, or anyone else who wants to discuss the "road map," should start a thread on the road map.

OK.


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Bubbles
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posted 09 May 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
The way things are going now in the Middle East it probably will take a few nuclear weapons with capable delivery system in Arab hands that will stop Israel from further terrorizing the Palestinians. There is just no respect for each other with such an imbalance of military, economic and political power. Sad in away. But bullying seems to be in fashion, thanks to Bush and co.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 May 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bubbles:
The way things are going now in the Middle East it probably will take a few nuclear weapons with capable delivery system in Arab hands that will stop Israel from further terrorizing the Palestinians. There is just no respect for each other with such an imbalance of military, economic and political power. Sad in away. But bullying seems to be in fashion, thanks to Bush and co.
You can't be serious. Do you honestly want to see Iran, Yemen or Syria with a nuclear capability? God have mercy on us all!!!!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 10 May 2003 10:19 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
You can't be serious. Do you honestly want to see Iran, Yemen or Syria with a nuclear capability? God have mercy on us all!!!!!

Why not? Israel has them.

Arabs have as much right to defend themselves. And Israel is part of the proliferation problem.

quote:
During the Apartheid years Israel engaged in massive nuclear commerce with Pretoria, with effects that were felt throughout southern Africa. The alliance included trade in uranium, transfers of weapons technology, and cooperation in staging at least one joint nuclear test--for which Israel has never been held accountable. (See my book Dimona the Third Temple, 1989, chapters four and five) The relationship flourished for more than a decade. And though it did not survive the dissolution of Apartheid, the Israeli government simply shifted venues. India became the latest partner of convenience. By the year 2000 Israel’s nuclear commerce with India reportedly reached $500 million per year. (Yossi Melman, "India's Visiting strongman Wants to Expand Nuclear Cooperation with Israel," Ha'aretz, June 16, 2000)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3288.htm



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Bubbles
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posted 10 May 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
No Mishei, I wish no one had nuclear weapons. They seem rather useless as a weapon of war, since its use would turn the whole world against the user of such weapon. But can you imagine a 100 megaton hydrogen bomb planted sucurely in the middle of the dead sea with both the Israelis and the Palestinians having a finger on the trigger. Would that not be an incentive to be real nice towards each other? That would be a balanced relationship, and that is what is missing in the middle east.

It would not be my prefered choise, since it would probably ends up being a neurotic relationship with other problems rising up.


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majorvictory
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posted 11 May 2003 01:27 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Getting back to the sickening reality of the war:

Eye witnesses

quote:
Two Israelis who witnessed Palestinians being shot by the IDF could not believe their eyes.

In recent weeks, columnist Gideon Levy described two violent incidents in the territories in which a Palestinian boy was killed and a Palestinian girl was injured. In the wake of these articles, two eyewitnesses sent their testimonies on the circumstances of the shootings. Both raise serious questions concerning the behavior of IDF soldiers


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WingNut
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posted 11 May 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to figures provided by B'Tselem [The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories], the number of incidents in which the Military Police launches an investigation following the killing of innocents by soldiers is minimal, the manner in which the investigations are conducted ludicrous and the number of the convictions negligible. Consequently, I will not be surprised if the murderer is not brought to justice in this case either. This is not a trigger-happy soldier, but rather a group of soldiers acting like a murderous gang, storming a group of children that do not represent a genuine danger.



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DrConway
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posted 11 May 2003 01:51 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rhetorically, I could then ask Mishei if he has any confidence at all in the IDF's internal investigations procedures after these revelations.

I do believe that the phrase "banana republic" fits here again. Not that the US or Canada's police internal investigations are much better, though - but the consequences that arise out of continuing police whitewashes aren't as disastrous in potential impact.

Let us consider.

The worst that can happen in Anglo-America is that the police will P.O. the wrong person and get a sharp slap of reality. This has happened in Vancouver, where honest citizens have been expressing their frustrations to COPE council about their lack of trust in the internal investigations procedures of the Vancouver police. The mayor has promised to crack down on this and get some reforms in. I say "the worst" because there is still a good amount of democratic control over police and there is still a separation of duties where former police officers don't usually run for election or attain high-profile corporate positions.

By contrast, in Israel, the proportionately heavier firepower and the cultural milieu means that the IDF should be more tightly regulated (as one mis-shot from an ordinary pistol can mean a hole in a building, but one mis-shot from a rocket launcher... well, you don't want to be in the building that gets whacked, and the IDF starts to lose accountability because so many former generals and colonels go on to high-profile private sector jobs and into politics.

The CYA (Cover Your Ass) attitude works as well in the military as it does anywhere else, and generals that become politicians are probably all too tempted to CYA their fellow officers' overenthusiastic attacks on people who can't fight back on the same scale.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 May 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On one of the Iraq threads somewhere in this same forum, there is a most thoughtful and succinct post from oldgoat about the problem of using combat troops as police. It applies as well to the current use of the IDF.

Of course they are murdering civilians, just as the Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan are. They are incompetent for a large part of the work they are doing.

UN peace-keeping certainly needed to evolve, but using combat troops to contain an entire nation represents a serious step backwards -- like, way back. We are all failing here.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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