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Author Topic: Israeli troops kill British cameraman
Mohamad Khan
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posted 03 May 2003 12:36 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli troops kill British cameraman in Gaza Strip

quote:
A British cameraman was shot dead by Israeli troops last night after a group of journalists came under fire in the Gaza Strip city of Rafah.

Witnesses said that the Israeli soldiers, who were demolishing a home in the area, shot at the journalists even though they were waving white flags and torches, and shouting in Hebrew and English that they were journalists.

James Miller, a freelance journalist working for a company called Frostbite, was making a documentary about the lives of Palestinian children in Rafah, a refugee flashpoint next to the Egyptian border.



From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 May 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First, in memory of James Miller.

There is a marvellous church called St Bride's, on Fleet Street in London, that is known as the journalists' church. I don't know, of course, whether there will be a service there for James Miller, but when these things happen, often there is, and everyone in the British media who can turns up.

This is going to mean things for Tony Blair, I think. He is going to have to fight even harder for the road map -- that is perhaps the positive way to look at it. If Sharon starts playing footsie again, and Bush allows that, then Blair will be in a hard place.


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CyberNomad
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posted 04 May 2003 11:31 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's an error in the report ... Mr. Miller was shot by Palestinian gunmen. (Thought you might want to know.)
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tyoung
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posted 04 May 2003 11:50 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post
Source?
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CyberNomad
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posted 05 May 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Source?

Say, matey, are you Google-challenged?

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al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 May 2003 12:20 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
google

But...

quote:
The acclaimed cameraman was filming in the volatile town of Rafah, near the Egyptian border, when he was shot in the neck by an Israeli tank on Friday, according to witnesses.

The television crew was waving a white flag while filming the Israeli army's house demolitions and walking towards the tank when Miller was shot, according to another British journalist named only as Dan.


Indeed, this is challenging.

[ 05 May 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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skdadl
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posted 05 May 2003 08:13 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CN, can you explain yourself? There are now many sources citing witnesses who all say the same thing.

So if you know something we can't find, please pass it on.


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Briguy
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posted 05 May 2003 09:58 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My google search brought up exactly one report (out of many) that blames Palestinian gunmen for this murder. This source is The Israel Insider. Every other news source (Haaretz, BBC, Telegraph...yadayada) says the bullet came from an IDF tank. The Israel Insider uncritically accepts the IDF's version of events, without considering the eyewitness reports of the other reporters who were on the scene when Mr. Miller was murdered. Thanks for the scoop, CyberNomad, but no thanks.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 05 May 2003 10:25 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the Jerusalem Post :

quote:
The IDF stated that soldiers were patrolling the area of the army's Termit outpost, located near Rafiah, and had uncovered an arms-smuggling tunnel near the Egyptian border.

When the soldiers approached the tunnel Palestinian terrorists opened fire at them, the IDF said. The army claimed the fire included two anti-tank missiles. None of the soldiers were hurt as they returned fire at the gunmen.

The IDF points to two areas which indicate that Miller was shot in the back by Palestinians. The Associated Press TV captured an on-going gun battle between the IDF and Palestinian terrorists in Rafiah. The film clearly illustrates a dark night scene with Miller exiting from one Palestinian house and walking towards another which had a weapons smuggling tunnel in it.

Miller was part of a crew of three people which had a woman carrying a white flag. Miller was not walking in the direction of IDF troops and IDF gunfire.

An IDF doctor who was on the scene shortly after Miller was shot stated that the bullet entered into Miller's rear left shoulder.

The AP film also captured the sound of laughter coming from a Palestinian in a nearby building immediately after the shooting.

The army is awaiting further confirmation that Miller was shot dead by Palestinian gunfire as his body has been sent to the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute for further examination.

The IDF questioned Miller's judgement in that he was walking right into the middle of an on-going gun battle.

The IDF also stated that Miller was not in possession of a valid Government Press Card at the time of the shooting and as such the IDF had less control over his safety. The Spokesperson added that they would never had allowed Miller to enter a closed military zone and be exposed to hostile gunfire.

The IDF stated that it is a tragedy when any civilian is killed or wounded but added a warning saying that the entry of photographers into combat zones during exchanges of gunfire endangers both the troops and the photographers.

The Spokesperson stated that IDF troops on the scene risked their lives to come the aid of Miller, who was lying in the line of hostile gunfire. The IDF immediately dispatched a medical helicopter to the area in an attempt to save the Miller's life.



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Briguy
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posted 05 May 2003 10:57 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's the exact same quote as I read from the Israel Insider. It seems there are two versions of events being published (the story in Haaretz and the Independent are essentially identical). Perhaps the autopsy will reveal which version is correct. I find it curious that one version indicates that there was no gunfight between militants and the IDF, and that the other describes a pitched battle. You would think that a precipitating event as important as a gun battle would not be left out of the Haaretz story.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 05 May 2003 01:15 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It seems there are two versions of events being published

That's always the case ... their version, and ours.

Like most of you, I choose to believe ours.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 May 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ours and theirs. Black and white. No reason to wait for evidence, just believe the PR from the IDF without question.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 05 May 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ours and theirs. Black and white. No reason to wait for evidence, just believe the PR from the IDF without question.

Sarcasmo, from your previous post, it seems like you're doing the same just the opposite.

[ 05 May 2003: Message edited by: DaddySno ]


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WingNut
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posted 05 May 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
doing the same just the opposite

He must be a contortionist.

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Briguy
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posted 05 May 2003 04:35 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sarcasmo, from your previous post, it seems like you're doing the same just the opposite.

I probably am. But I am willing to wait for the autopsy (and bullet ID, if forthcoming) before completely ruling out a Palestinian militant bullet. My experience following many planted stories and official denials by various military forces (mostly the US, but also the Canadian, Israeli, and British) is that official PR channels for said forces are not trustworthy. It's an observation which makes me question official denials of responsibility, especially when weighted against damning eyewitness interviews. Call me a cynic.

quote:
He must be a contortionist

Again, I probably am. I can get my feet over my head, and have the ability to touch my hands to my ankles while bending backwards. For any ladies interested, my official phone number is 1-900-TWISTGUY.

[ 05 May 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 08 May 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But I am willing to wait for the autopsy (and bullet ID, if forthcoming) before completely ruling out a Palestinian militant bullet.

Quoting myself! How uncouth. Nonetheless: Cameraman killed by IDF bullet

quote:
A British cameraman killed last week in the Gaza Strip was shot from the front, according to an autopsy that suggests he was hit by Israeli troops.

The autopsy report was released Thursday by Israel's national forensic institute.


See what happens when you wait for investigators to gather evidence before making pronouncements about who shot whom? You end up looking far less stupid when the truth comes out.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 May 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, Sarcasmo.
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Mishei
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posted 08 May 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
According to today's Ha'aretz it seems that the autopsy has concluded that it was an IDF bullet that killed the cameraman.

Now there must be a full and transparent investigation.


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skdadl
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posted 08 May 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, Mishei, I honestly don't mean to be needlessly provocative by reporting this. I know that it is painful to everyone.

However, I reported this last year, and I repeat it now because it is relevant. A year ago, British reporters returning to London after covering the IDF's surge into the West Bank were wandering about repeating over and over to each other and anyone who would listen, "They were shooting AT us!" (Sorry I can't reveal my source, although I think that phenom has been reported elsewhere.)

I mean, Mishei, after a while it gets really hard for a lot of people to sit on the fence, no matter how fair they are trying to be ...


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Scout
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posted 08 May 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's an error in the report ... Mr. Miller was shot by Palestinian gunmen. (Thought you might want to know.)

I think somebody needs to own up here. Not that I think you'll admit you were wrong and your claim unsubstantiated.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 May 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Send in the Americans !!!
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DrConway
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posted 08 May 2003 01:21 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
I think somebody needs to own up here. Not that I think you'll admit you were wrong and your claim unsubstantiated.

Betcha 5 bucks he comes back with the bizarre theory that Palestinians steal bullets from heavily-guarded IDF depots.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 08 May 2003 01:39 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just visited the homepage of the IDF, in the hopes of seeing results from any recent investigations of their soldiers. Specifically, I was trying to find investigations pertaining to the deaths of Rachel Corey, the shooting of Tom Hundel, or any recent incidents where stone-throwing Palestinians were killed by gunfire. I couldn't find any mention of internal investigations, unfortunately.

I did manage to find this investigation by Reporters Sans Frontières on the killing of Palestinian press member Imad Abu Zahra, which occured last July.

quote:
We can justifiably question how serious and motivated the Israeli army was about the investigation which it claims to have begun the next day. We have established that none of the witnesses was questioned in the course of its enquiries. The investigation was conducted in a manner that was, at the very least, superficial ...

Here are details on the investigation of the killing of one Palestinian child and the wounding of two of his friends near Rafah in July, 2001. (from Haaretz, originally)

quote:
About two weeks ago, Ha'aretz reported on a series of internal inquiries conducted by the IDF as a result of irregular events. None of them, including the inquiry into the killing of three Bedouin women who were hit by an armor-piercing shell fired by a tank toward their tent encampment, led to any criminal investigation, and no one was given a a disciplinary trial. In the October 29th session of the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, MK Ran Cohen of the Meretz party said that, "All of the inquiries were characterized by shallowness and an attempt to whitewash the facts, despite the fact that they were carried out by senior officers."

The failures were found at all ranks: from the soldiers who violated the opening-fire orders to the IDF Spokesman who offered an imprecise version of the incident.

In light of the facts disclosed in the internal documents, B'tselem is demanding that the investigation be reopened into the circumstances of the death of Halil al-Moghrabi and the wounding of his two friends, to order an MPI investigation, and should it be required, that measures be taken against all those responsible for harming the children. They also seek to investigate all the parties that were involved in the investigation file.


Results of Rachel Corey investigation

quote:
Tom Wallace, a spokesman for the ISM, said that the army's investigation had been far from credible and transparent as it had promised.

"The conclusions are outrageous. If they found that the driver was not culpable what did they find to explain this? How could they find a driver who had run someone over in a slow and deliberate manner in no way responsible?" he said.

Corrie's parents, Craig and Cynthia, from Washington, had called on the US state department to investigate the death of their daughter.


Either the JAG arm of the IDF has the most incompetent prosecutors and most lenient judges on earth, or the IDF does not take these investigations seriously.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 May 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
According to today's Ha'aretz it seems that the autopsy has concluded that it was an IDF bullet that killed the cameraman.

Actually, according to the article, "British journalist James Miller, who was shot dead last week in the Gaza Strip town of Rafah, was hit by IDF fire, not by Palestinian fire, according to an autopsy..."

The autopsy didn't seem to conclude that the IDF killed Miller, it did make that conclusion.

Ha'aretz article

[ 08 May 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 May 2003 03:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe I dont get it..when it says someone was killed by IDF fire, what does that mean to you?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 May 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not talking about the article, and you know it.
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skdadl
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posted 08 May 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

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Briguy
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posted 08 May 2003 03:39 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong, I don't think Mishei is trying to refute the report in any way. The "it seems" and "according to" in his statement are just part of his writing style (and my writing style, for that matter). I don't want to speak for him, but I'm fairly certain that a little imprecision while writing to a web forum doesn't imply that he doubts the accuracy of the report. Lots of people tend to throw phrases like "I think" and "it seems" unconsciously while writing, without intentionally trying to be imprecise.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 May 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Scars, sheesh, I was just trying to point out that the IDF WAS responsible. I note, very sadly I might add, that you chose not to copy the second half of my post which makes it all quite clear.

Why would you do something like that?


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 May 2003 04:03 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 May 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Al, that is exactly the response I expect from you when you know you were wrong.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 May 2003 06:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, this must be a record.

When wishing to avoid the main topic of a thread, take refuge in fruitless and circular discussions of etiquette.

You're more rude! No, you're more rude!

Could we stay on topic? For a change?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 May 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I may digress just once more, I was talking about circumlocution rather than etiquette.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 May 2003 08:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure you were Al
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 May 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Huh?
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Briguy
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posted 09 May 2003 09:38 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If we can get back to some useful discussion, I have a question. A serious question. When I did my google search for IDF internal investigations, I saw very little evidence that the IDF takes these investigations seriously. Most of the hits were from organisations criticizing what they called "whitewashes", saying that the investigators rarely interviewed key witnesses; that they relied solely on the word of IDF personnel in the area (and sometimes COs who weren't even there). In some cases, if damning video evidence was available, investigators still would not recommend charges against seemingly guilty soldiers. Frankly, I expect the investigations not to be thourough, not because it's the IDF, but because military and police forces worldwide have extremely poor track records when it comes to self-policing. The few more thourough cases involved the investigation into the assassination of Rabin, and an incident where some soldiers filled an Israeli national's car full of bullet holes.

Oh ya, I had a question...does anyone have any examples where the IDF investigated illegal acts against Palestinians or internationals in the occupied territories, and soldiers or COs were punished for crimes? Not slapped on the wrist, but actually punished? Because I've had a hard time finding any examples, and I doubt that anything actually comes out of internal IDF investigations. But my sources are generally limited to internet search engines.

[ 09 May 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 April 2006 02:45 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

A British filmmaker fatally shot in Gaza by an Israel Defense Forces soldier was murdered, a coroner's inquest decided Thursday.

James Miller, 34, was shot in the neck by a soldier in the town of Rafah, along the Gaza-Egypt border, in May 2003 while filming a documentary about the impact of violence on children in the region.

The coroner, Andrew Reid, had instructed the 10-member inquest jury at King's Cross Coroner's Court that a verdict of unlawful killing was the only one they could reach. Reid had told the jury that Miller had either been murdered or was the victim of manslaughter, but that the law drew no distinction.

"Based on the evidence laid before us, we the jury unanimously agree it was unlawful shooting, with the intention to kill Mr. James Miller. We can come to no other conclusion than that Mr. Miller was indeed murdered," the jury said


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/703355.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 April 2006 03:16 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How endlessly sad, and how endlessly infuriating.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 06 April 2006 04:53 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
The young American woman who was run over by a tank trying to save others came immediately to mind. Another wrongful death of someone working for social justice. Sad indeed.
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 06 April 2006 05:14 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sarcasmobri/Briguy: Frankly, I expect the investigations not to be thourough, not because it's the IDF, but because military and police forces worldwide have extremely poor track records when it comes to self-policing.

And yet, even in Canada, law enforcement and military forces share this self-evidently questionable ideology. The police, nor the military, should be in charge of investigating themselves. It's ridiculous. Yet it continues. It surely continues because powerful people want it to continue.

quote:
eau: The young American woman who was run over by a tank trying to save others came immediately to mind. Another wrongful death of someone working for social justice. Sad indeed.

It's my understanding that after Rachel Corrie was run over ...the driver backed over her lifeless body just to make sure she was dead. If true, then there are other words that are more appropriate to describe these sorts of events as "sad". "Sad" hardly conveys the appropriate degree of outrage.

[ 06 April 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 April 2006 06:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CyberNomad:

That's always the case ... their version, and ours.

Like most of you, I choose to believe ours.


La la la.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 April 2006 07:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh gawd. josh, you get a hero cookie for bumping an old thread instead of starting a new one but...CyberNomad? DaddySno? Mishei?

Eek.

Let's remember, folks, that most of these posts were made several years ago. It's probably not necessary to refute them now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 April 2006 07:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I missed it then.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 April 2006 07:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
... and I think its good that Josh bumped the thread! All those legal beagal skill pais off and he did his research. This keeps the continuity of the story.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 April 2006 07:23 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, thanks Josh! I had read the James Miller story on the Guardian site, but prefer this continuity. Funny seeing those ghosts from the past...

By the way, the young British International Solidarity Movement activist was named Tom HURNDALL - important to get the spelling right to google. http://www.tomhurndall.co.uk/

I know Rachel and Tom are singled out for attention because they were from rich countries (as well as being very young, and very photogenic) but at least this spotlights the ongoing brutality of the Occupation, of which James Miller's killing is yet another case.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 April 2006 08:59 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know Rachel and Tom are singled out for attention...

Every time I read of "Rachel and Tom" I think of two young people from Saskatoon (both who have been babblers, by the way) who were ISM volunteers, but who fortunately lived to tell about it.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 07 April 2006 08:54 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a point in this thread at which I realized there was no point in defending Mishei's behaviour. Ah, memories. That Sarcasmo guy sounds like a real jerk.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 07 April 2006 08:59 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's the worst part of the ghosts, isn't it - meeting the ghost of your self.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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