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Author Topic: British Suicide Bombers Pose As Peace Activists
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 10:19 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
peace activists
From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 May 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So? Another one posed as an Orthodox Jew. Does not mean either peace activists or Orthodox Jews support suicide bombers.

What I find more worrying about this story is the fact that the bombing was perpetrated by two British citizens, not of Palestinian descent (believe they were both of Pakistani descent) from families that were fully integrated into British society. And they didn't even seem to be screwed-up cases like Richard Reid, the hapless shoe bomber.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So? Another one posed as an Orthodox Jew. Does not mean either peace activists or Orthodox Jews support suicide bombers.


Lagatta, I don't think that was the point the article was trying to make. It does, however, increase the risk for real "peace activists".

quote:
What I find more worrying about this story is the fact that the bombing was perpetrated by two British citizens, not of Palestinian descent (believe they were both of Pakistani descent) from families that were fully integrated into British society.

I think this should have alot of people worried.


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 02 May 2003 11:35 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It also suggests that suicide bombing is not just a response by Palestinians to material conditions in Palestine.

After all, these men haven't been dehumanized by curfews, security checks, searches, etc. In fact if anything they sound distinctly upper class.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 May 2003 11:41 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So were the 9/11 bombers.
Maybe the war of civilizations that the Bush cabal and Osama wants is underway.

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Mohamad Khan
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posted 02 May 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fuad Nahdi saw this coming quite a while back. time to listen to what he has to say:

Tel Aviv first, then Manchester?

quote:
Last month, I warned of developments within British Islam. "We need to be scared," I wrote on these pages. "The end of the war in Iraq might even usher in the beginning of our own intifada."

Among the many responses was one from 10 Downing Street. I was told that my piece was "uncharacteristically alarmist" and I did feel temporarily defensive. But, sadly, I was right. I am not surprised by news of Britain's first suicide bombers; what, however, I find astonishing is that it took place in Tel Aviv, not Manchester.



From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 12:01 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
These events and those of Sep.11 also put an end to the myth that poverty creates terrorists & suicide bombers.

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: DaddySno ]


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WingNut
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posted 02 May 2003 12:07 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These events and those of Sep.11 also put an end to the myth that poverty creates terrorists & suicide bombers.

I don't think that myth ever really existed except among, perhaps, a very few.

Why don't you read the linked article above. It is very insightful.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 May 2003 12:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Every revolutionary group or movement I can think of has always attracted people from a variety of backgrounds. There are some pretty obvious reasons, eg, why especially bright, well-educated young people often become radically iconoclastic in a variety of ways.

I would be interested in hearing more from Nahdi about the specifics of the alienation of young British Muslims. I can well imagine that, even coming from well-off and Westernized families, they don't exactly feel "integrated" into many strata of British life.

A powerful voice, anyway, MK.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think that myth ever really existed except among, perhaps, a very few.

I just pointed this out because I heard it alot after Sep.11. I read the article and there's somethings I don't agree with.

quote:
But unless the Palestinian voice, and the Muslim voice that echoes its pain, is listened to, there will be no understanding of what happened to Asif Muhammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif. Instead, we will be subjected to more banal rhetoric about "evil" Islam and the motiveless nature of fundamentalist terror.

Osama Bin Laden has pointed out the Palestinians but nobody actually believes he cares about these people. Also, the governments of surrounding arab states have let their palestinian refugees live in horrible camps for so many years. A few in control have hurt so many.


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WingNut
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posted 02 May 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who ever said Osama bin Laden spoke for Palestinians? Or the few in control rather in the middle east or Washington or Downing Street?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 02 May 2003 12:36 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BBC Radio 4's "The Today Programme" has two interesting audio clips on british reaction to the suicide bombing ... one with iqbal socranie, general secretary of the muslim council of great britain ... and one with anjam choudry, UK leader of al muhajiroun, an islamic radical group.
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody said OBL spoke for palestinians. What I'm saying is that he has brought up the palestinians and used them as an excuse for what he's done. I believe surrounding arab dictators are doing the same things.
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SHH
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posted 02 May 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does not this…
quote:
Were it not for Islam, the anti-western rhetoric and violence would be out of control.
seem to directly contradict…
quote:
In the 36 years since the fall of Jerusalem, the Muslim voice has been deeply radicalised. You find this everywhere - from the scholarly pulpits of Al-Azhar to the mosques of Birmingham and Derby, where young people speak only of Palestine. It is the great religious transformation of our age.
???

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DrConway
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posted 02 May 2003 02:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Poverty may be a contributing factor in precipitating more suicide bombers than otherwise but it certainly isn't the sole driving force.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 02:45 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Were it not for Islam, the anti-western rhetoric and violence would be out of control.

I believe that because of people distorting islam, anti-western rhetoric and violence is out of control.


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Briguy
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posted 02 May 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that because of people distorting Christianity, state-sanctioned violence against Middle Eastern peoples is largely unopposed in western society.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 02:58 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that because of people distorting Christianity, state-sanctioned violence against Middle Eastern peoples is largely unopposed in western society.

How so ?


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Briguy
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posted 02 May 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that because of people distorting islam, anti-western rhetoric and violence is out of control.

How so?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Turning to the current crisis, the imam warns threateningly: "I warn you, O
United States, O Britain, and O you Jews, sons of apes and pigs. You, Jews,
are behind sedition on earth. God has chosen us to chop off your filthy
heads, and we will chop them off." The imam reiterates that sedition on
earth "takes place with the funds and media intrigues of criminal Jews." "It
is very regrettable and shameful that the United States and Britain bow to
Jewish tyrants," he says.

How So ?

Your turn Sarcasmo

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: DaddySno ]


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Sisyphus
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posted 02 May 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Daddysno asks: "How so?"

So.

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 02 May 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I read the article and there's somethings I don't

agree with.


with regard to the part of the article with which you do not

agree, namely,

quote:
But unless the Palestinian voice, and the Muslim voice that echoes its pain, is listened to, there will be no understanding of what happened to Asif Muhammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif. Instead, we will be subjected to more banal rhetoric about "evil" Islam and the motiveless nature of fundamentalist terror.

if you do not believe that the Occupation of Palestine is a primary impetus--if not the primary impetus--for "Muslim rage" or whatever you'd like to call it, it's clear you're a bit out of touch with Muslim discourse. i remember one night in Faisalabad my cousin and i were having an argument about 9/11, Kashmir and terrorism in general, with a crowd of other guys listening in and occasionally interjecting something. he brought up the issue of Palestine, to which i, not wanting to get sidetracked, basically responded, "yeah, that's there on the side too," and was about to go on when he cut in furiously, "no, you don't understand. Palestine is the central issue. Palestine is the issue." that stopped me dead; everyone else expressed their agreement, and i knew he had me there. they were very serious, and this is the sentiment i've encountered among Muslims both there and here. for God's sake, it's the central issue in my mind as well.

i have some idea regarding what your objection will be, but not having time to pre-empt, i'll let you voice it.

then there is SHH's dilemma: how can Nahdi say, "Were it not for Islam, the anti-western rhetoric and violence would be out of control," and in the same breath talk about Islamic extremism? if this confuses you, you need to read the article again. following the sentence that you've quoted, there is this:

quote:
Were it not for Islam, the anti-western rhetoric and violence would be out of control. Yet, some of us have been tipped over the edge. The message carried in the deeds of these angry young people is that, yes, Islam forbids suicide and killing civilians, but they are now so angry about Palestine that they are going to set these principles aside.

Nahdi is dead on. a Syrian scholar came to give a talk at U of T last year on the subject of sharî`a and fiqh (Islamic law and exegesis). it's convenient for people who whine about moderate Muslims not speaking out against extremism that they never come to these things...anyhow, with September 11th in mind, he made a devestating attack on the idea of suicide missions. in fact, there was nothing at all remarkable about its logic, which was based on a standard reading of the Qur'an, but it was the way he delivered it. the message? Islam forbids suicide and killing civilians (déja vu, eh?), and these two transgressions are at the heart of the suicide mission.

i used these same arguments in audience with that cousin of mine in Faisalabad when we were arguing about 9/11: "does the Qur'an sanction killing innocent people?" and this time he couldn't say anything for a couple of minutes. finally he said, "no, it's a great sin...but--" and then fell back on CIA/Mossad conspiracy theories. me: "but listen bhaijaan, the people who kill civilians in Kashmir, are they CIA agents too?" him: "they do it by mistake--" me: "you're beginning to sound like the IDF's PR man. what about the Palestinian suicide bombers who murder innocent Israelis?" at this point his argument completely degenerated into angry bombast, the essence of which Nahdi captures exactly: "they are now so angry about Palestine that they are going to set these principles aside.

but oh, how much easier it is to ignore this and run about shrieking "Islam is the enemy."

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: Mohamad Khan ]


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy M
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posted 02 May 2003 06:52 PM      Profile for Tommy M     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

i used these same arguments in audience with that cousin of mine in Faisalabad when we were arguing about 9/11: "does the Qur'an sanction killing innocent people?" and this time he couldn't say anything for a couple of minutes. finally he said, "no, it's a great sin...but--" and then fell back on CIA/Mossad conspiracy theories. me: "but listen bhaijaan, the people who kill civilians in Kashmir, are they CIA agents too?" him: "they do it by mistake--" me: "you're beginning to sound like the IDF's PR man. what about the Palestinian suicide bombers who murder innocent Israelis?" at this point his argument completely degenerated into angry bombast, the essence of which Nahdi captures exactly: "they are now so angry about Palestine that they are going to set these principles aside.

But is it surprising if they believe there is nothing else they can do?

Not that I am condoning it, but there has to be a level of frustration someone feels when every action they take is met by unmovable opposition.

[ 02 May 2003: Message edited by: DeadEye ]


From: Here | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 May 2003 07:07 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe suicide bombers don't think they have a choice.

Suicide bombing doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

I'd like to think that Martin Luther King's and Ghandi's tactics of peaceful resistance can overcome the Occupation. Then again, look what happens to ISM volunteers who engage in peaceful resistance.

Bulldozed and shot.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 02 May 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
surprised? no. opposed? absolutely.

quote:
I'd like to think that Martin Luther King's and Ghandi's tactics of peaceful resistance can overcome the Occupation.

call me a dreamer, but i still believe that they can, if their power is harnessed correctly, and if the Palestinians can believe in them. one of the many problems is that nonviolence is equated with passivity, whereas suicide bombing is supposedly "active" even though it doesn't accomplish anything. this is definitely a tough sell, though. and in terms of refining or radicalising the technique, it doesn't help that the Israeli government has inexplicably exiled some of the most brilliant Palestinian activists and leaders engaged in nonviolence. off the top of my head, two things that it needs are mass mobilisation and relentless media coverage. a couple of lines from an account of the beating of Israeli activist Neta Golan underline the last point admirably:

quote:
There were no media present, which contributed to the feeling of the security forces that no one was "watching". I don't know if anyone was using the video cameras that we now have in the field, and I don't want to call Neta back to ask.

From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 02 May 2003 09:38 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe you guys didn't read my quote, or you just ignored it. So I'll post it again.

quote:
Turning to the current crisis, the imam warns threateningly: "I warn you, O
United States, O Britain, and O you Jews, sons of apes and pigs. You, Jews,
are behind sedition on earth. God has chosen us to chop off your filthy
heads, and we will chop them off." The imam reiterates that sedition on
earth "takes place with the funds and media intrigues of criminal Jews." "It
is very regrettable and shameful that the United States and Britain bow to
Jewish tyrants," he says.

Can anyone find a quote where a priest asks christians to cut off the heads of muslims ? Do you guys not think that this is a problem ?


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lagatta
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posted 02 May 2003 10:02 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I do a bit of historical research (no time tonight, I am ill with a cold and off to bed with a good book and my cat Renzo) I'll have no problem whatsoever finding a host of priests and other "Christian" figures who say things just as hateful and even more so against both Muslims and Jews. Please read "The Crusades through Arab Eyes". The Crusaders butchered the people of the Eastern Mediterranean, Muslims, Jews and Eastern Christians.

I don't think you should re-post a quote that is redolent of hate literature. The imam is an arsehole. Lots of those in all religions, unfortunately.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 02 May 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe you guys didn't read my quote, or you just ignored it.

Daddy, you haven't answered my post at all. if you're just going to provide quotes and then sit back without engaging in the argument yourself, why should i answer you?


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 03 May 2003 08:58 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mohamad, I'm sure that your cousins and probably many other arabs feel rage over the palestine issue. But it seems like there are a number of arabs, mainly the one's in a position of power, who seem to use the the palestinian issue to their advantage and to draw attention away from them. There are alot of arab dictators who do not want the palestine issue resolved because then the attention would be turned on them and how they run their dictatorships.

Lagatta, the link I provided in my other post was from Feb. 2003. It is something recent and it continues to go on all over the mid east. I'm sure you could find some christian hate sermons, but I don't believe it to be as mainstream. Point is, religion, no matter what religion, seems to be at the root of most wars anyways.


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skdadl
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posted 03 May 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry has obviously been reading this thread -- at least the title -- and, inspired by its logic, has announced that Israel has now banned all peace activists from the OT.

(You can link to the full story from the front page of the Globe and Mail -- sorry, I'm having problems with a cranky computer and can't do the link just now.)

If you read the spokesman's statement carefully, you will see that he cannot provide a logical connection between the peace activists and the two British suicide bombers -- but Israel is going ahead with the ban anyway.

The excuse for the ban: one of the two British bombers apparently attended a memorial service for Rachel Corrie, the American killed by an IDF bulldozer.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 May 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are alot of arab dictators who do not want the palestine issue resolved because then the attention would be turned on them and how they run their dictatorships.

See?

The Occupation is the Arabs' fault.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 03 May 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
See?The Occupation is the Arabs' fault.

No, the dictators. Where do I say the arabs ? The dictators. Please don't put words in my mouth.


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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posted 03 May 2003 01:13 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard a shrink on NPR the other day talking about hate. His claim was that hate itself was a serious mental disorder. He wasn’t talking about the generic version of ‘I hate carrots’ or ‘I hate my boss’. He was talking about the kind of hate that corrodes your life; the kind that would motivate you to self-destruction. An obsessive all-consuming emotion that interferes with rational functionality and ultimately devours you.

Without asking the question of what value is Islam (or any religion) if you can simply elect to ‘set aside’ its principles because you’re angry, I wonder if this anger we hear about isn’t of the pathologically debilitating variety the shrink takes note of.

And, as DaddySno claims, I wonder how true it is that Arab leaders fan the flames of this run-away pathology to divert those angry eyes to anything other than themselves.

I don't know, but I suspect there's some truth there.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 May 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You may be correct, SHH, but only to agree, I would think.

I'm guessing that having thousands of your neighbours killed by Israelis who are stealing your land might do more to fan those flames than anything any "Arab dictator" might say would.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 May 2003 12:15 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DaddySno:

No, the dictators. Where do I say the arabs ? The dictators. Please don't put words in my mouth.


Follow along...your dictators are Arabs. Therefore, according to your reasoning, Arabs are to blame for the occupation.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 05 May 2003 10:07 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You follow along....to sit there and pretend that it wouldn't be in the best interest for arab dictators to allow the palestinian situation to go on is foolish at best.

quote:
I'm guessing that having thousands of your neighbours killed by Israelis who are stealing your land might do more to fan those flames than anything any "Arab dictator" might say would.

But forcing them to live and die in horrible refugee camps for years instead of allowing them to integrate into your country is okay in their books ?


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 May 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"integrate"????

Oh. I forgot. They're all "Arabs," of course. Doesn't matter where you put them; as we all know, all Arabs are the same.

Ethnic cleansing, anyone?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 05 May 2003 10:49 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, I don't know if integrate is the best choice of words. What's wrong with it ? You tell me. But it's nice how you completely ignore the point of the whole discussion to try to label me as racist. Ethnic cleasning ? What in the hell are you talking about ? Are you sure you're in the right thread ?
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Mishei
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posted 05 May 2003 11:36 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's one thing to read about the horrific experiences of those caught in a homicidal bombing and another thing to read about a first hand experience. Sarah (an acquaintance) who lives in Israel, tells about the terrible anxiety experienced by her family worrying about their son Dave and his friends. He was working last Wednesday at Mike's Place where the British terrorists set off one of their bombs, killing 3 and wounding 55, six critically! The terrorists were part of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, an arm of Fatah under the control of Arafat.

_________________________________________________


May 1, 2003


As many of you know, my son Dave tends bar at a pub called Mike's Place.
As the whole world knows, Mike's Place was targeted by a Moslem homicide bomber, attempting to eliminate a few more Jews, just following Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Shortly after 1 A.M. Wednesday morning, the phone rang. It was Dave. "Did you hear what happened?" he asked. Of course I hadn't. "I just called to tell you I'm ok. I don't have a scratch. Dom's arm is gone and they're taking Avi away now. I gotta go."

I frantically searched for some report on the radio, and after a few minutes, the first news of the bombing was broadcast. Soon afterward, the first televised reports came on.

The phone rang again. It was Lilach, asking in a tearful and shaky voice if we had heard from Dave, because she couldn't reach him. I assured her that he was all right.

I sat shivering uncontrollably - eyes glued to the television set, flipping channels, trying to assemble the facts - 2 dead, then 3, thirty wounded, then 55 - 6 critically. The true hero was Avi, the security guard who prevented the bomber from entering the pub. Avi, the army buddy with whom Dave had shared some good times, some very difficult times and even a girlfriend, was positioned just a few meters away from where Dave stood. Avi studies criminology and supplements his income by working at Mike's.

Throughout the night, we watched the reports. Leo's younger brother, his sister and my brother called from Canada after they saw the reports on CNN. Lisa, who rarely leaves her television set on during the night, saw the news and called immediately. I can't say that she and Dave are the closest of siblings, but under it all, there's real love and concern. Close to 4 A.M. the broadcasts stopped because there was no more to be said and we managed to doze off. In the morning, a few other good friends called.

In a semi daze, I went off to work. I hardly remember the drive to Tel Aviv. I was able to keep in touch with Dave as the day progressed. I really needed to give my kid a hug.

Late in the afternoon, one of the victims, Yanai, by day a high-tech employee, by night a musician, was buried. Many of those who frequented the pub went to the funeral. Yanai, in Dave's words, was "probably one of the best guitarists to walk into Mike's Place". Yanai and 2 or 3 other musicians had been discussing joining together in a band. They went outside to Barry's car to talk. Yanai returned to the stage to play more. About half an hour later, he took a break walked outside and in a flash, wound up dead, his head buried under the same car where he had been discussing his future.

Last evening I received an education. After the funeral, I met Dave at Ichilov Hospital where Avi and Jack were fighting for their lives. Together, Dave and I went downstairs. There was a collection of people waiting to hear that their friends would be all right. As we approached, arms were outstretched to hold and be held in silent hugs. This happened whenever new people joined the group. Avi had internal injuries including a punctured lung. He was awake following his surgery, but was heavily sedated now. Jack had surgery on his hands and was also sedated. Jack, who was producing a documentary about the flip side of terror - about night life that continued in spite of everything, was at Mike's Place filming. In seconds, the coin flipped, and Jack became a victim of terror. Puebla, the photographer, kept on filming. Dave took a moment to visit both, to assure himself that they would be all right.

And then there was Sara - tears glistening on her cheeks and eyes glazed, obviously still in shock. Some of the women took her back to emergency while Dave went for an ear examination because his left ear felt blocked and was becoming painful.

I waited, meanwhile, with Elad and Lilach. Elad is in the army. He had the night off and was on his way to play guitar at Mike's Place. He studied violin for years as well as guiter and was on his way to the U.S. to teach music at a summer camp, then study, He aspires to become a composer of music for films. He has already written music used in performances of the Habima and Camary Theater companies. As we waited, Elad told me of his problems with his girlfriend. Time suddenly was so important to him. Here amid the madness, it was still important to talk of love.

Dave refused psychiatric trauma help because he didn't want to talk it out with a stranger. He said he knows he needs to get it all out, but it would be with his friends...... and talk they did.

We went out to eat - for most, the first meal since the explosion. It was around the table that all the observations came pouring out.

"I saw a flash and thought one of the spot lights had fallen."
"I was on my way over when I saw the first police car"
"I saw Yanai fly up and then come down on Barry's car."
"I tried to put out the flames on Yanai's body and then I realized he was dead."
"You know that stuff that was dripping down from the roof? That was his guts spilling out."
"His head and hands were hanging over the edge. That's why the ladder was there. They got him down fast."
" I rolled over - in slow motion, it seemed. When I got up, I was the only one who could get up."
"Did Yanai Land on my car first? There was a horrible dent in it."
"Dom was lying there with her arm ripped off and Yanai was on the other side with his head under the car. Between them was this big ugly leg."
"How do you get blood off your shoes?"

There was more, and all of it was ugly. Each statement was delivered in a very matter-of-fact manner - as if by rote, without feeling.

Skinny Joe, who sat beside me, told me that there is a school in Pakistan where students are taught how to mould the genie inside the lamp. He assured me that thus far, no lamp had ever been found. Skinny Joe is leaving shortly for his best friend's wedding in Canada. "I don't want to go now", he said. "I want to be here. I have to be here. We have to show them."

And THAT, my friends, is the true spirit of Zionism and what has to be the reality for Jews. This is ours. We'll be here, and we'll survive - forever!

Mikes Place reopens on Tuesday, memorial service at 5:00 P.M.

Sarah.

Night, May 3: Jack is well enough to be released from the hospital. Avi is conscious, progressing well, but remembers nothing of what happened.

[ 05 May 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 05 May 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But forcing them to live and die in horrible refugee camps for years instead of allowing them to integrate into your country is okay in their books ?

Do you even read your own posts?

How about letting them "integrate" in their country of origin?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 05 May 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How about letting them "integrate" in their country of origin?

That's not the point. The point is they could have made their lives better but they are choosing to leave them in these camps to live horrible lives so the attention isn't turned on them.


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 May 2003 01:31 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. It is precisely the point.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 05 May 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's precisely the point when you want to change topics because it looked very unlikely that you had anything reasonable to add to the topic that was being debated.
From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 10 May 2003 06:20 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mohamad, I'm sure that your cousins and probably many other arabs feel rage over the palestine issue.

Daddyji, if you've read my post, then you'll note that i explicitly stated that the conversation with my cousin took place in Pakistan. from there it ought to be quite evident to anyone with a rudimentary understand of the Muslim world that i'm South Asian and not an Arab. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this was a slip.

quote:
But it seems like there are a number of arabs, mainly the one's in a position of power, who seem to use the the palestinian issue to their advantage and to draw attention away from them. There are alot of arab dictators who do not want the palestine issue resolved because then the attention would be turned on them and how they run their dictatorships.

it's not clear to me why you feel that you must educate us regarding this. no one on this board has disputed that claim any more than we've questioned the existence of Palestinian suicide bombers. i seem to recall another thread, to which i did not respond. the poster had stumbled upon an article in the Arab press, and if i remember correctly, it presented an opinion similar to the one you've put forth. the poster seemed very excited about discovering this lone voice in the Arab wilderness, and perhaps didn't consider the possibility that it may have simply been the first opinion that he had found of this sort. indeed, if he'd taken the trouble to read the Arab press more widely, or to actually speak to Arabs themselves about this kind of thing, he might have discovered, as i have, that many Arabs are already aware of this, both in print (Edward Said and Hani Shukrallah are not marginal figures) and on the "street."

what's incredible, however, is how some can talk--correctly--about Arab leaders diverting attention away from their own bad governance via the Palestine issue, but restrict such chastisement to that particular "race" without considering that this might be true of others as well. as long as such a thesis is directed at Arabs it's believable, but when others talk about the diversionary effects of George Bush's wars, or when Israeli journalists suggest that the Likud government has a vested interest in keeping the conflict alive for the same reasons, they will always deny it.

quote:
Lagatta, the link I provided in my other post was from Feb. 2003. It is something recent and it continues to go on all over the mid east. I'm sure you could find some christian hate sermons, but I don't believe it to be as mainstream.

i hope the implication is not that hatred in Islam is mainstream. if so, please let me know, and tell me how you know.

i've been fighting the urge to respond to your quote with some other recent ones i have on hand. what would it accomplish, after all, except to continue a childish battle of quotations. suffice it to say that someone who wants to engage in intelligent debate should not presume to circumscribe the bounds of the possible rebuttals; "in order to challenge my argument, you have to find a recent quote where a Christian priest tells a congregation to chop Muslims' heads off." as though nothing else would do.


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged

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