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Author Topic: Gott Mit Uns
majorvictory
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posted 26 April 2003 08:19 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not even the IDF has done this so far.

quote:
FURY AS US STRIPS THIEVES Apr 26 2003

AMERICA was at the centre of a new human rights row last night after four alleged Iraqi thieves were paraded naked in a Baghdad park by US troops.

The degraded prisoners had the words "Ali Baba, Haram'' - "Thief, Unclean" - scrawled in Arabic on their chests.


The US soldiers were seen chasing the Iraqi men shouting "Ali Baba, Ali Baba". All four ran as fast as they could to hide their nakedness, according to onlookers.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 26 April 2003 08:54 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The jury will disregard the "not even the IDF" part of the comment.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 26 April 2003 08:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah. Can I just request here and now that this thread NOT be derailed into a "how bad is the IDF" thread? Which means that I would appreciate it if the handwringing over the comparison as well as the further justifications of the comparison be left to another thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 26 April 2003 10:54 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know if you listen to the front line soldiers point of view, and imagine their situation in what is for them a strange and alien environment, you can understand their thinking while still shaking your head in disbelief at the actions.

The issue here is that they are being asked to do things they're not properly trained to do. Further, there was no one higher in the chain of command present who would see this as a really bad move. Canadian troops for instance would never have done such a dumb thing, because for the most part, our troops have extensive experience in peacekeeping/policing roles where often very tricky and culturally sensitive problems are routinely and successfully handled at the NCO level.

A well known exception to this which I think supports my point is the terrible experience of the 1st Canadian Airborne in Somolia. This unit specifically did not have peacekeeping experience, but was more of a kick-ass unit like the Marines. When they were given the task of peace keeping, a young Somali citizen was murdered, and the whole thing was a disaster.

The best that can be made of a bad situation at this point, is for the UN to become involved in a lead role in restoring order, with the aid of countries who have more experience with this sort of thing, and who will have a higher degree of credibility in dealing with the local population and it's natural leadership.


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majorvictory
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posted 27 April 2003 12:05 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, more left-wing anti-American handwringing...may the "jury" forgive me!

US Forces Make Iraqis Strip and Walk Naked in Public


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 27 April 2003 12:41 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Can you imagine the uproar if the Iraqies had paraded American prisoners naked on TV. I can just imagine what Bush would have said.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 April 2003 04:08 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder if Jay Leno or David Letterman will make cute comments about this. Has this incident been covered by any of the TV networks?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 27 April 2003 08:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that I will retain the sad panda.

It is clear that official protestations to the contrary this "Operation Iraqi Freedom" has really been "Operation Occupying Power". At every stage when the US military had an opportunity to gain great PR from their mission, they flubbed it.

What do I mean?

Let us take the example of taking down an Iraqi flag and putting up an American flag. What does this evoke? The image of the Soviets putting up their flag over the ruined Reichstag after the Second World War. This is an act of conquerors, not liberators.

Oh, that was a mistake. Just a mistake.

Then we turn to the flubbed take-down-the-Saddam-Hussein statue job. They assembled a tiny crowd and conveniently located a tank to pull the statue right down. If the US armed forces had even just stuck an Iraqi in the tank they would have gained a lot more credibility.

Ah, that's just sour grapes on my part. Right?

I turn to the most damning case in my arsenal: The deliberate allocation of US troops to guard only the oil fields, and the Ministry of Oil. No other governmental apparatus were guarded pending an orderly transition to a temporary government. No libraries or museums or any such buildings were guarded. Is this the act of a conqueror or a liberator?

Liberators, I note, do not have specific orders to secure "strategic assets" that might be useful to the nation sending the troops.

The sad panda is still sad because it has become clear that Iraq is to be run by (for all intents and purposes) a colonial governor who will hold the nation together by main force and work to superimpose the occupying nation's culture on top of the Iraqi nation's. Already I have heard that Burger King is rushing to set up an outlet in Baghdad.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 27 April 2003 08:56 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For some interesting insight on how the US will indeed be in control of a lot of Iraq's reconstruction efforts, check out Research Triangle Institute's USAID contract information.

I really do wonder how receptive Iraqis are going to be to a US-led effort to establish decentralized governance. OTOH, this might just be political balm applied to give the appearence of infrastructural development (i.e. not really expected by the US govt. to pan out or even get started). RTI's major areas of expertise are in the chemical and biochemistry areas. On first gloss, their approach to government (IMO) appears to be decentralized (good) but an almost totalizing reliance on the market to answer problems (bad).

[ 27 April 2003: Message edited by: verbatim ]


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 April 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oldgoat, while I really appreciate and agree with the nuanced tone of your post above, I would still say that the issue here is that a bunch of ignorant racists have been let loose to brutalize and rape a vulnerable population, and in terms of the harvest we all shall reap, that is what counts.

I ask others also to note how close to the surface the sadistic impulse seems to be. Och, but we understand ourselves so badly.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Saladin
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posted 28 April 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for Saladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not even the IDF has done this so far.

The IDF just strips people of their homes, jobs, freedom, and lives.

From: damascus | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 April 2003 03:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right mmmm sure sure. The sad truth is more telling. Hamas murders babies in pizza parlours
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 April 2003 03:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And Israelis shoot them with high powered rifles or with missiles fired into their homes.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 28 April 2003 03:53 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
Or run them over with bull dozers
From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 April 2003 03:55 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
or beat them in camps.
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Mandos
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posted 28 April 2003 04:03 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I read the thread title as a weirdly accented way of saying "got mittens?"
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DaddySno
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posted 28 April 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would still say that the issue here is that a bunch of ignorant racists have been let loose to brutalize and rape a vulnerable population, and in terms of the harvest we all shall reap, that is what counts.

This is, hands down, one of the most disgusting posts I have ever read in here. Just my opinion.


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 April 2003 04:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In what way?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 28 April 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's just typical skdadl bullshit Daddysno, nothing new around here. She's incapable of seeing the situation as being any more complex than a bunch of ignorant racists (i.e. Americans) brutalizing the poor iraqi people. Simple minds require simple analogies.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 April 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DaddySno:
This is, hands down, one of the most disgusting posts I have ever read in here. Just my opinion.

So are you denying that the US armed forces have used every excuse in the playbook to avoid taking responsibility for the destruction of Iraqi cultural artifacts, libraries and its governmental apparatus?

Are you denying that the US armed forces specifically only took control of the Ministry of Oil and the oil fields and that these actions speak louder than all the words hollered from the rooftops by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld about how the war is not about oil?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 28 April 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
yes ?
From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 April 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great. You're nominated for blinkered-one-of-the-month.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 April 2003 05:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing et al, you are so predictable. Moral equivalancy. My God what would you do without it?

While The IDF have indeed fucked up at times and they should be held responsible for the tragedies they reek. Whether you accept it or not (and frankly given your position I think those blinders are glued on)there is accountability and IDF members do face prosecution if need be.

Hamas and Al Aqsa and Hizbollah and well the list goes on and on are simply cold-blooded pirates, murderers who face no justice and have sent innocent children out as homicide bombers.

Hmmm I wonder why it is we never see the leaders offering themeselves as martyrs? Dont they want a piece of the heaven that awaiits the unfortunate children they send out to do their dirt work? Hard to contemplate isnt it?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 28 April 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sheep:
That's just typical skdadl bullshit Daddysno, nothing new around here. She's incapable of seeing the situation as being any more complex than a bunch of ignorant racists (i.e. Americans) brutalizing the poor iraqi people. Simple minds require simple analogies.

Let's see - we can all probably agree that the allegedly bygone 'imperial age' was rife with racism and feelings of cultural superiority on the part of the imperial states. Let's see if we can find any of this in the dominant discourse about the Iraq war. First we have the 'poor natives' who are downtrodden and somehow incapable of finding salvation on their own. They require an 'intervention' (divine?) in order to free them from their ignorance of properly civilised methods of politics and government. As such we will appoint a viceroy to oversea the proper civilisation of this backward place and ensure that the conversion of the poor natives to our ideology (liberal capitalist democracy) is complete and total. Only then will we leave these people alone, oh, and of course, once we have secured the privatisation of the main natural resource so that the profits will flow into our economy and not necessarily into Iraq.

Remember, the Romans brought roads and education too, that doesn't mean they weren't imperial bastards.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 April 2003 08:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
While The IDF have indeed fucked up at times and they should be held responsible for the tragedies they reek. Whether you accept it or not (and frankly given your position I think those blinders are glued on)there is accountability and IDF members do face prosecution if need be.

Can we have some examples, Mishei?

Soldiers in a banana republic almost never receive condemnation from their superiors unless they've gone so far that the banana republic needs to hang someone out to dry.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 April 2003 11:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That may be true in "banana republics" like Syria, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon. Thankfully the only real democracy in the area is Israel.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 April 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahem. I did request some examples.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 April 2003 01:59 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moral equivalency?

How about tactical and technological equivalency?

Hizbullah and Israel Keep Their Electronic Eyes Peeled

By the way, how much violence has Hizbullah engaged in since they liberated Lebanon from the Israelis? How much violence has the Israeli military engaged in since then?

Not quite equivalent.

[ 29 April 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 29 April 2003 03:06 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei: Thankfully the only real democracy in the area is Israel.
Can't let any of those Arabs have democracy. Oh no.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 April 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While The IDF have indeed fucked up at times and they should be held responsible for the tragedies they reek.


I agree. They reek.
quote:

Whether you accept it or not (and frankly given your position I think those blinders are glued on)there is accountability and IDF members do face prosecution if need be.


Yeah, sure they do. I asked you before and you didn't answer: How many IDF members have been jailed for their actions in the current intifadah?
quote:

Hamas and Al Aqsa and Hizbollah and well the list goes on and on are simply cold-blooded pirates, murderers who face no justice and have sent innocent children out as homicide bombers.


So who is arguing moral equivelancy? You argue Hamas, et al, are cold blooded murderers so it is okay for Israel to seek revenge through cold blooded murder, beatings, house demolitions, starvation and imprisonment of an entire people with two huge camps called Gaza and the West Bank.
It seems it is you who argues moral equivelancy to justify atrocities.
quote:

Hmmm I wonder why it is we never see the leaders offering themeselves as martyrs? Dont they want a piece of the heaven that awaiits the unfortunate children they send out to do their dirt work? Hard to contemplate isnt it?

You mean like Sharon?

And for the record, democracies do not imprison populations based on their race and require pass cards. They do not demolition homes or steal the natural resources of their subjects (note I didn't say citizen because in democracies the people you rule are citizens).

Israel is no democracy. Israel is Apartheid II, the Revenge.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 April 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing, Wing, Wing the argument of Israel as the apartheid state. My my its like a mantra from those who wish to see the dismantling of the Jewish state. It will never happen (to your dismay I am sure). Perhaps your energies would be better spent looking for ways to support Abu Mazen and his initiatives rather than advocating for something that will NEVER happen.

quote:
Can't let any of those Arabs have democracy. Oh no.
Oh you can once you get rid of their terrorist leaders.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 April 2003 04:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, mishei, mishei, the dismantling of the Jewish state. The mantra of those who would justify every atrocity, every crime, every policy of a racist state. Maybe your energy would be better spent lobbying Israel to become a truly democratic society where security comes from mutual understanding and respect rather than the imprisonment of a people.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 29 April 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...the dismantling of the Jewish state. It will never happen (to your dismay I am sure). Perhaps your energies would be better spent looking for ways to support Abu Mazen ...

There you have it, folks.
Fighting racism is useless. So, why try? Support corrupt, unelected governments instead.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 April 2003 04:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

And Satana, well what can I say, not even willing to give Abu Mazen a chance. But then why should you...he seeks an accomodation with Israel?

[ 29 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 April 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Wing, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.



And it was entirely genuine.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
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posted 29 April 2003 05:02 PM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sheesh, was the request that this thread NOT become about the IDF too subtle for you folks?
From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 April 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not for me. But for Wing it is like a fetish.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 April 2003 09:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Mishei, you're wrong. First it was Saladin that had to bring it up in the middle of the thread, and you were the one who responded next. WingNut responded after you.

And since this thread has degenerated into name-calling and off-topic, and not likely to get back on topic, it's now closing.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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