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Author Topic: Arafat refuses to disarm terrorists
Mishei
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posted 22 April 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It appears as though the reason for the tension between Palestinian PM designate Abu Mazen and Ararafat is the fact that Arafat refuses to diarm the Al Aksa terrorist brigade. Once again Arafat palys his card of violence in order to thwart peace.

Ha'aretz


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 22 April 2003 10:16 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How has he done so? And would you advocate Israeli disarm when Palestinians are still armed? You cal them terrorists. I am sure they call the IDF terrorists.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pathe Eton Hogg
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Babbler # 3960

posted 22 April 2003 10:28 AM      Profile for Pathe Eton Hogg     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fourth paragraph.

Why would Israel disarm with so many hostiles around? The Palestinians are just the whipping boys of the factions that crave political standing with the U.N. yet hold tight to the traditions of continuing on age old wars and grudges.

Arafat said himself in the article that should the Palestinians disarm, it would result in civil war. Not war with Israel but war within it's own factions as one takes the opportunity to kick the other while they are down.


From: Iraqistan suburbs | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 22 April 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You cal them terrorists. I am sure they call the IDF terrorists.
No, they have been labeled terrorists by Canada,USA, Great Britain, and others. They have been involved in suicide/homicide bombings and have murdered many innocent people without provocation.

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skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 22 April 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
so many hostiles

*cough*

I don't see how any of us can judge this situation without knowing from the inside just how the tensions among the various armed factions are working right now.

Elsewhere, such tensions are worked out through slow and careful negotiations, usually involving neutral parties: see Northern Ireland. I don't understand why the Palestinians are suddenly being told to sink or swim by tonight.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 22 April 2003 11:33 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, they have been labeled terrorists by Canada,USA, Great Britain, and others.

Only because they lack good PR.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 April 2003 11:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also because they're committing terrorist acts.

I would be more inclined to say the inverse - the IDF who kill innocent Palestinians manage to escape their deserved "terrorist" label because of good PR, not because they're not committing terrorist acts. Whereas the suicide bombers do not escape their deserved "terrorist" label because they don't have good PR.

On the other hand, it's pretty hard to "spin" a suicide bombing in a positive way. Eventually people have to stop and say to themselves - are we getting bad PR because our actions are just not effective when it comes to garnering sympathy for our cause?

I agree that it's unfair that the IDF manages to get sympathy for their atrocities though.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 22 April 2003 02:55 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree that it's unfair that the IDF manages to get sympathy for their atrocities though.


I do not condone excessive or criminal behaviour by the IDF and either does the State of Israel. It has and continues to investigate and charge those who participate in atrocities.

But as always on Babble, the need to engage in moral equivalence is hard to shake. Israel is engaged in a war against terrorism. War is dirty and ugly and terrifying and people die. Good and innocent people die. But Israel must do what it caan to defend itself. To suggest that the IDF sits around and planfully decides to MURDER innocent Palestinians is not only ridiculous but a claim forged in painting the State of Israel with a brush of hate.

[ 22 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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WingNut
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posted 22 April 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, sure.
Two men recently shot in the head by snipers. One a peace activist the other a cameraman. The snipers, trained marksmen, both IDF.

How many IDF soldiers are currently doing time for abuses against Palestinians or others in the West Bank?

IDF investigations are white washes.

A woman, a human rights activists who worked for peace, was shot on her porch while knitting. The IDF jeep drove past her home once, returned and opened fire, and returned at least one more time.

There was no other shooting in the area.

Of course the IDF claimed they were defending themselves from high powered knitting needles or something. Now they say there is an investigation. A investigation of many months. Waiting for it to blow under to sweep it under the rug.

We do not hate Israel. Israel and the IDF hates Palestinians. They have been raised to hate them and trained to kill them.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 22 April 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree that it's unfair that the IDF manages to get sympathy for their atrocities though.


Again nothing but provocative and hateful generalizations....again no surprise here.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 April 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have to admit, though, it's much easier to justify killing a "two-legged cockroach" than a fellow human being.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 22 April 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do not condone excessive or criminal behaviour by the IDF and either does the State of Israel. It has and continues to investigate and charge those who participate in atrocities.

Then why do their internal investigations procedures remind me of the half-assed RCMP and local police "internal investigations" that always cast the guilt on anybody but the trigger-happy police officer? I have as much confidence in the IDF's version of an internal investigation as the police version, which is to say... BUPKISS.

Banana republic, Mishei.

quote:
But as always on Babble, the need to engage in moral equivalence is hard to shake. Israel is engaged in a war against terrorism. War is dirty and ugly and terrifying and people die. Good and innocent people die. But Israel must do what it caan to defend itself. To suggest that the IDF sits around and planfully decides to MURDER innocent Palestinians is not only ridiculous but a claim forged in painting the State of Israel with a brush of hate.

Ah, so Israel is at war. Perhaps we should inquire as to whether it is violating the Geneva Convention.

Magically, when I ask that, Israel is not at war. Then if it is not at war, why is 20% of Israel's national production (GDP) devoted to military expenditures, and why do soldiers with troops regularly patrol areas of what would be termed Eretz Yisrael?

Only soldiers in banana republics regularly are assigned to do duties that, in industrial nations, are usually assigned to civilian police.

quote:
A woman, a human rights activists who worked for peace, was shot on her porch while knitting. The IDF jeep drove past her home once, returned and opened fire, and returned at least one more time.

In the USA or Canada such an action would be termed a "drive-by shooting" and characteristic of a mafia gang rather than a well-trained police or military corps.

I leave the conclusion as to whether this is also characteristic of a banana republic as an exercise for the reader.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 April 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do not condone excessive or criminal behaviour by the IDF and either does the State of Israel. It has and continues to investigate and charge those who participate in atrocities.



Tell these guys:
quote:
On 30 Jan. Brigadier-General Israel Ziv, commander of the IDF Gaza Division, wrote to the army's Chief Attorney and asked him to close an investigation file regarding an IDF booby-trap bomb that killed five children, an investigation that may question, among other things Ziv's own responsibility for the killing. Br. Gen. Ziv wrote that the investigation might damage soldier morale.

src: Official IDF Policy: Not to Investigate



From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 22 April 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Banana republic, Mishei.


Hey Doc a new calumny ...at least you are original. Hmm Banana republic you say? So that would make Syria what?? " a model democracy "?.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 22 April 2003 04:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops. Someone missed As Mother Used To Say 101: two wrongs don't make a right ...
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DaddySno
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posted 22 April 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 22 April 2003: Message edited by: DaddySno ]


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 22 April 2003 05:02 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We do not hate Israel. Israel and the IDF hates Palestinians. They have been raised to hate them and trained to kill them.

When you say Israel, do you mean all Israelis ?

[ 22 April 2003: Message edited by: DaddySno ]


From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 22 April 2003 05:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well Skdadl Syria does not two wrongs make...how about virtually every regime in the middle east and most of South east Asia? If Israel is a banana republic what are virtually every other despotic nation in the area?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 22 April 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My post had no political content, Mishei. I was commenting on your logic. And the comment stands.

Goodness sakes, Mishei. In times like these we all need a little backbone.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 22 April 2003 05:33 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, "a little backbone"...forgive me I have no idea what you are referring to
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 April 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am asking you to maintain high babble standards (the standard babble standard, in other words) in logic of presentation.

It's no good saying that x may be bad but y is worse -- not if you don't acknowledge x's badness in the first place. That is if x truly happens to be bad, of course, on which grounds I was not expressing an opinion at this very moment, although you never know.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 22 April 2003 05:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm and that's a "Babble standard" you say? Does it apply to everyone? And one more thing for future reference where can I find these "Babble standards"? I assume they are written somewhere on babble but damn if I can find them. Thanks for the help.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 22 April 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read the Babble Standards too. It said, " America, Israel bad, anything else good."
From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 April 2003 05:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
babble standards are not written down anywhere. Some of us just model them.

And then there's Mother.

Sorry, Mishei, but it's pumpkin time. Have a nice night.

Daddy Sno, you are beneath contempt. Show me an anti-American or anti-semitic post on babble that has not drawn censure.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 April 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is off topic and doesn't look likely to get back on track.

[ 22 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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