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Author Topic: Arafat continues his ways
Mishei
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posted 21 April 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arafat continues to screw his people:

Arafat vs Abu Mazn

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
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posted 22 April 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Mishei, sadly he does. but not nearly as thoroughly as the past three successive Israeli governments, Israel's military, and the Americans.
From: BC | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 22 April 2003 09:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maggot, that is such crap and the sad thing is that you know it. Barak was ready willing and able to make peace with an offer that all reasonable people saw as fair and acceptable. What does Yassir do...he provokes violence against Israel that has led to untold misery for both sides. He is an obstacle to peace. No he has no desire for peace. he is not a statesman and could care less about his people. Hopefully if Abu Mazen is given a chance we may see a shift...hopefully.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 22 April 2003 11:24 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mish, you know, as well as i do, that these people instinctively support the Palestinians, no matter how horrendous the Palestinian in question is. Sure the regime on the Israeli Jewish side has not always been so wodnerful but that is no reason to not criticize Arafat. One wonders if anyone here has ever taken a logic class.
From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 23 April 2003 12:27 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
It is a bad time for the Palestinian aboriginals to negociate anything, as long as Sharon is there Arafat is probably correct in avoiding any negociations. It would be nice to see both voted out and a few progressive (liberals ) voted in. An Israeli that is willing to get rid of their WMD's and discriminatory practices and a Palestinian that is willing to get rid of indiscriminate suicide bombs and 'a oneway trip in the sea' mindset. It would be nice, but I do not have much hope that it will happen soon. The problem seems to be soooo institutionalized.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 23 April 2003 12:50 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Everyone is quick to blame Israel, but can we not agree that Arafat is not doing enough in terms of promoting peace?

Certainly Israel has its share of problems, but it would be wrong not to acknowledge the problems within the Palestinian administration.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure we can. I think the argument held by most is that there are two sides to this coin and to blame one side, or promote one side, withou aknowledging the other is foolish and self-defeating.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 April 2003 02:01 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know why you guys keep saying that we aren't acknowledging the wrongs on the Palestinian side. The second post in this thread, the one that started this whole thing, acknowledged it up front - that sadly, Arafat IS screwing his people, but that the Israeli government screws his people as well.

Why is it that you claim we're one-sided when we apportion blame to both sides, but when Mishei starts a thread that only focuses on blame for one side, you don't mention anything about that?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 23 April 2003 02:43 AM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, Mish's thread was about how Arafat has screwed up again, not who arafat is a screw up. maggot went on to say that Americana nd Israel are "screw-ups". Mish is talking about one instance and ne person, maggot is talkign about all instances and all people.

This is often how the tems are couched on this board. I see individuals screwing up, the left s ees groups screwing up. Maggot also painted witha borad brush. there is a huge difference.

We are not talking about Sharon here either ( if we were then the thread would have been different, believe you me) we are talking about the internal politics of the PA. its dumb to even bring in other people's screw ups ( unless they are closely related to this one)


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 23 April 2003 04:39 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How 'bout Abu Mazen?
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 09:38 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The second post in this thread, the one that started this whole thing, acknowledged it up front - that sadly, Arafat IS screwing his people, but that the Israeli government screws his people as well.
Why is it that you claim we're one-sided when we apportion blame to both sides, but when Mishei starts a thread that only focuses on blame for one side, you don't mention anything about that?


No that is presisely NOT what the second post says...not even close. Let's take a look at it.

quote:
Yes, Mishei, sadly he does. but not nearly as thoroughly as the past three successive Israeli governments, Israel's military, and the Americans.
I t is absolutely clear that there isn't even the usual equivalence here but a irect denunciation of THREE successive Israeli governements. While acknowledging some blame on Arafat's part, Maggot then goes on to put the majority of blame on THREE SUCCESSIVE ISRAELI GOVERNMENTS!! And that is what you call "an acknowledgement" of blame. Please...well then again on Babble I suppose that is what is considered fair.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, first, mishei, you spout the old Barak was willing to do peace line (he was but not if it would saddle Sharon with peace) and you consistently fail to acknowledge that Israel has been effective as putting the boots to any chance for peace as Arafat or Hamas.

For example, delaying, forever, what had been agreed to and thereby undermining the entire agreement. Continuing to expand settlements, even increasing the pace of settlememt activity, in vioation of laws and agreements.

The Israelis have proven to be untrustworthy partners in negotiation. Maybe Arafat isn't all that trustworthy either. But then by your approximation it is not good company you are keeping.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing you are and will remain an apologist for Arafat. Take your blinders off and see the truth. Many of us who are Zionists from both the left and even the right have acknowledged that Israel has made mistakes. However the clear and definitive impediment to both peace and a Palestinian state has been Arafat. He wants no Israel, no Jewish state and will accept nothing less. That is the key nothing more.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 23 April 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Until Israel recognizes Palestinian refugees' right to return to their homes inside Israel, then any talk of "peace" is bullshit.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 10:20 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana's post above is exactly what I am referring to. Anyone with any sense knows that this will not happen. Yes there must be a right of return to a PALESTINIAN STATE. And once people like Santana and others realize this we will reach peace. But I fear he, like Arafat and other radicals so hate the concept of a Jewish state that they wish to engage in the new extreme leftist philosophy of ensuring a world that is "judenstatrein" in other words free of a Jewish state that peace is a far off dream.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 23 April 2003 10:24 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its not the Jewish state in itself that is the problem. Its that the current Jewish state was created through ethnic cleansing. Israel is the Palestinian state. Once everybody's rights are recognized then Jews wishing for their own ethnicly pure state can create one from land they legitimately own. Until then Israel=ethnic cleansing.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Satana for more anti-peace rhetoric.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wing you are and will remain an apologist for Arafat. Take your blinders off and see the truth. Many of us who are Zionists from both the left and even the right have acknowledged that Israel has made mistakes. However the clear and definitive impediment to both peace and a Palestinian state has been Arafat. He wants no Israel, no Jewish state and will accept nothing less. That is the key nothing more.

That wasn't very nice, mishei. I could argue, with more justification I think, that you are an apologist for Sharon and an apartheid state. But I don't.

Israel has made mistakes. And it continues to make mistakes. Mistakes that daily cost Palestinian lives.

To blame Arafat is a cop out.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 April 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is blaming Isreal "anti-peace rhetoric", but the opening post in this thread, which blames Arafat exclusively, is not "anti-peace rhetoric"?

It sucks that people have different opinions about this conflict, but just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they're "anti-peace". One could just as easily say that Mishei is "anti-peace" because he refuses in most of his posts to apportion any of the blame to the Israeli government.

But I wouldn't say that. I think everyone who posts on babble wants to see peace in the Middle East. They just disagree on how that could come about.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 April 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Mishei, I don't find this acceptable:

"the new extreme leftist philosophy of ensuring a world that is "judenstatrein" in other words free of a Jewish state". (Should be Staat, by the way...).

Especially the German, a coy reference to Nazi policy of making the Reich (and later the countries it conquered) "Judenrein", free of Jews, ultimately by exterminating the Jews. Advocating a secular binational state is not the same as advocating genocide. And some of us - the anarchists among us for example - have little love for any state whatsoever. That does not suggest they have any desire to exterminate any human group.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 11:41 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta, I never suggested a thing about extermination and resent any implication to suggest such.

That said, as a Zionist I cant help but feel after seeing a number of posts here that there are those who prefer a world without a Jewish state. That is unacceptable and viewed by the vast majority of Jews as unacceptable.

So for those who believe that peace can only be obtained if there is NO Jewish state I say that is anti-peace because such thinking is only a perscription for ongoing war or hostility.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 April 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So why did you make up a word in German that paraphrases one of the sinister Nazi expressions (rein doesn't just mean "free of" but pure, cleansed as in the latter-day infamous term "ethnic cleansing".

I personally don't care whether or not there is a Jewish state side by side with a Palestinian state, or one binational and multicultural secular state. Actually I'd prefer a secular, binational state, but don't think it is feasable in the foreseeable future: depends on the people there from both nations. . What I care about is that neither Palestinians nor Jewish Israelis be slaughtered, either by the IDF, suicide bombers or gun-happy settlers, and nobody expelled from their homes. And I am certainly not in the slightest anti-Jewish or anti-Palestinian or anti-Arab.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 April 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lagatta, I never suggested a thing about extermination and resent any implication to suggest such.

It's so true: we all just burst into German at the drop of a hat, for no reason at all, on babble.

Coy would be my word too, lagatta.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 April 2003 12:23 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
er, lagatta, a question I hope you won't take too negatively...but why do your posts always appear twice? Are you double-clicking or something? Just wondering.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 April 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The hills are alive, with the sound of babble!"

Who plays the Austrian nuns, who plays the children?

No, I'm not double-clicking. Can't figure out what is wrong.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 April 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, it happened again. It's like there's a lagatta doppelgänger or something. Are you using the 'back' button after you post? That could be reposting the form. Could be.

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 23 April 2003 12:48 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New cabinet offered to Arafat

quote:
Prime Minister-designate Mahmoud Abbas presented a new Cabinet to Yasser Arafat, ending a dayslong standoff with the Palestinian leader over its composition, officials said Wednesday, and keeping a U.S.-backed peace plan on track.

Palestinian Parliament Speaker Ahmed Qureia said he was informed by Abbas and Arafat that the new Cabinet was formed, just hours before a midnight deadline, and the list of ministers is ready for presentation to the parliament.


The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Arafat was politicking. The inhuman monster.

quote:
By law, Abbas has the sole authority to form the Cabinet, but in practice needs Arafat's blessing. The Cabinet requires the approval of parliament, where the ruling Fatah party, which sided with Arafat in this showdown, commands a solid majority. It remained unclear whether Abbas' Cabinet would win approval.

Abbas has lost valuable support in Fatah by appointing several politicians tainted by corruption to his Cabinet and by not bringing in new faces.


The inclusion of Fatah-unsupported individuals marred by corruption may have led to Arafat's initial refusal. It's so crazy it may just be true.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, it happened again. It's like there's a lagatta doppelgänger or something. Are you using the 'back' button after you post? That could be reposting the form. Could be.



Might be just you Mandos. I only see her posts once. Maybe you find them so compelling you can't help but read them twice? Just kidding. Serioulsy, I only see them once. Anyone else see double posts?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Prime Minister-designate Mahmoud Abbas presented a new Cabinet to Yasser Arafat, ending a dayslong standoff with the Palestinian leader over its composition, officials said Wednesday, and keeping a U.S.-backed peace plan on track.

It is all meaningless anyway. So long as Palestinians are counting on a US backed peace plan, it will never happen.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 April 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They were there! They were there! Someone is playing with my mind...
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 23 April 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see them too -- or I did. See that last post of mine above? Well, the post of lagatta's that precedes it also followed it in seconds, and stayed there for a while. But now it's gone.

And I also often see double lagatta's elsewhere.

But to the topic: Does this latest development mean that we're just looking at politics as usual, and Mishei's thread title above has deflated a touch?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 01:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So why did you make up a word in German that paraphrases one of the sinister Nazi expressions (rein doesn't just mean "free of" but pure, cleansed as in the latter-day infamous term "ethnic cleansing".
Call me paranoid, but in the past, attempts to free the world of Jews were met with little resistance.

Since the establishment of the State of Israel, despite ongoing anti-Semitism, Jews rest easy because they intuitively understand that no one will with impunity ever again attempt to wipe Jews or Judaism off the face of this earth.

So Lagatta and Skdadl, I chose a German word derivaitive to emphasize how I feel as a Jew to those who so casually claim that a Jewish state need not exist. If there had been a Jewish state in 1939 there would have been no Holocaust. It will never happen again. The world will not be made "Judenstatrein". Im sorry if you don't like the word but having never met my uncles, aunts grandparents because they were murdered for the crime of being Jewish caught in Hitler's attempt to make the world "Judenrein" Jews, many many Jews, get their backs up against those who advovate for the abolition of the world's ONLY Jewish state and safe haven for Jews.

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 April 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, be verrrry careful on this turf:

You. Do. Not. Know. Whom. I. Have. Met.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 02:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, so it is wrong if someone advocates against Israel, a tiny minority view at that, but okay for you to smear everyone else as Jew hating nazis.

No wonder it is so hard for me to sympathise with you.

And before you go on, Santana never advocated the end of Israel but the right of refugees to return home. Like it or not, it is a legitimate area of contention. How many were even compensated for their loss of land and property?

I seen a segment on TV last week pointing out how evil Saddam was because there are now Arab families living in what was once Kurdish homes. But no one says Israel is evil for doing the same. Why not?

What is your solution for those who lost their land and property mishei? I know if Israel was Cuba the answer would be a crippling embargo.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please Skdadl it really doesn't matter to me who you have met. You should have had the chance to meet my half brother Yitzchak. I understand he was an amazing little boy. My father use to tell me that he rode a horse like a soldier in the Polish cavalry. You know he lost an arm to gangrene when he was only 2 years old but he survived and he never let it slow him down. H e was a bit of a practical joker as well. He loved to hide his father's tallith (prayer shawl) before they went to synagogue on the Sabbath. He had bright blue eyes and he was only 9 years old when Hitler's attempt to make the world Judenrein caught up with him.

He was gassed in Treblinka. I really wish you would have been able to meet him. Today, right now as I look at his picture his eyes are burning a hole in my heart.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 02:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ah, so it is wrong if someone advocates against Israel, a tiny minority view at that, but okay for you to smear everyone else as Jew hating nazis.
I have smeared no one. You have smeared me by claiming this lie.

I have only passionately explained why I hold so tightly to the only Jewish state. And why I will advocate against those who wish to see it abolished. If you feel that those who wish to see Israel abolished are "Jew-hating nazis" that is your belief. It is not mine.

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 April 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, if I have misread that run-on structure above (which I see now you probably meant to refer to yourself, not to me and lagatta), then I apologize.

(I also apologize to all babblers for the pedantry, but I feel duty-bound to point out that there is a dangling participle up there, and this is the unfortunate result, all too often, of dangling participles.)

That said, Mishei, I weep for your brother, and the agony of your loss.

If only you could register the agony of others.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 23 April 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has Afrikaaner culture disappeared since the dismantling of apartheid? Are the Afrikaaners lost to the winds of time? No and no. There is no reason to think that allowing the right of return for so many displaced Palestinians will eliminate the Jewish culture in Israel. To even suggest such a thing short-changes the strength of Jewish culture, both in Israel and abroad.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 April 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have met MANY Holocaust survivors, some Jews, some politicals, some both. And survivors of other genocides (including Rwanda and Guatemala). Léo Kalinda, a Radio-Canada journalist I know here, lost his entire extended family in Rwanda. Almost 100 people. I was as close to some of the people I speak of as to any blood family.

A very dear friend of mine, in Argentina, lost his entire family in the Warsaw ghetto and Treblinka, then survived the Dirty War in his own country. Obviously I have never met anyone murdered by the Nazis as I was born after the war. My concern for the victims of genocide is no less than yours because I favour an internationalist solution of fighting fascism everywhere. I don't think any single country can be a safe haven.

The workers' and socialist movements were physically crushed before the brunt of the genocide against Jews, as were any liberal-democratic opponents. There was virtually nobody left to fight the Holocaust in an organised manner. How could they, when they were dead, exiled or starving in Dachau?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If only you could register the agony of others.


I have on a number of occassions and will continue to denounce anything in which innocence is murdered.

Your quickness to show me as a callow unfeeling person is regrettable and frankly I would not have thought part of your style. Then again we learn everyday it seems.

quote:
My concern for the victims of genocide is no less than yours because I favour an internationalist solution of fighting fascism everywhere. I don't think any single country can be a safe haven.

I have not judged you. However your last statement is the clear dividing point between you and I. As a Jew and a son of a Holocaust survivor I am not willing any longer to take a chance. Hitler was the last straw and frankly it became hard to trust for Jews after Hitler. You say Israel is no safe haven for Jews but answer me this, if there was a strong Jewish nation of Israel in 1939 do you believe 6 million Jews (2.5 million children under the age of 10) would have been murdered?

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 April 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I do not think that you are callow and unfeeling -- quite the reverse. You wear your heart on your sleeve -- and sometimes, over your eyes.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I appreciate the backhanded clarification Skdadl. And arent you just full of surprises?

You know me through my posts and if you had bothered to remember many of my posts dealt with a variety of social welfare issues ranging from my specific interest, the Middle East to same sex unions, violence against women and support for Women's choice. Not to forget the battle against nazis, racists and fascists. Ahhh but you with your blinders on you see me in a way you have decided ..one dimensional...but then again you did say "sometimes"

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 23 April 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The sad panda remains in my profile.

Part of the reason why is the inflexibility of the Israelis in understanding that microfocussing on Arafat's every move as though he were intent on some great evil even when he, apparently, is simply doing political horse-trading within the Palestinian-Arab arena, is counterproductive.

I find it somewhat incomprehensible that a people, militarily strong and proud, backed by the world's mightiest nation, and even without its military, possesses its own nuclear weaponry, can continue to retain the cultural gestalt of fear, paranoia and victimization.

(That was not a casual use of German, as the word gestalt encapsulates the concept of "entirety, wholeness" better than its English equivalents)

But then I am not female, black, Jewish, or (these days) Muslim. I suppose when they come for the atheists I will gain a more intimate understanding of this odd contradiction of self-worth and distrust.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 April 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have smeared no one. You have smeared me by claiming this lie.

I have only passionately explained why I hold so tightly to the only Jewish state. And why I will advocate against those who wish to see it abolished. If you feel that those who wish to see Israel abolished are "Jew-hating nazis" that is your belief. It is not mine.



Unfortunately, mishei, the smear is your weapon of choice. You raise a word, a German word, symbolic of the worst of nazism to respond to a post and then claim you didn't smear anyone? That is typical of you.

More typical is then presenting yourself as the victim.

I can respect and sympatise with your loss, mishei. I just wish you could respect and sympathise with the loss of others. Like teh Palestinians still living in refugee camps and who face having their homes and lives attacked with rockets and bulldozers.

It is a shame you don't see that your homeland was built upon the blood and suffering of another people. It si a shame you prefer to cast smears and aspersions on everyone who dares question it than offer a solution to those who still suffer.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
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posted 23 April 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maggot, that is such crap and the sad thing is that you know it. Barak was ready willing and able to make peace with an offer that all reasonable people saw as fair and acceptable.

Hi Mishei,

Haven't checked this thread for a long time; last time I did, there were no responses, so I figured that it was dead. Imagine my surprise, then, when I cruised by here and saw the number of belated reposes, and that you had gone apoplectic over my post.

From your response, I'm assuming that you think that Barak's Camp David offer -- which has been discredited on many grounds -- was Israel's big carrot and that Arafat, being Arafat, preferred instead to continue the way of the stick. To paraphrase your own laughably inelegant prose, Mishei, "that is crap and you know it."

Camp David did not provide a contiguous state. Palestine would have been vivisected by Israelli access roads. Water access was preferentially allocated. Israel would have at least temporary supremacy over Palestinian air space. In short, it was not an offer that Arafat (for all his faults, and they are legion) could take back to his people.

And again as "you know," Barak accelerated the building of settlements in the occupied territories, in order to create a more flexible bargaining position for himself. (Just how much flexibility was evident during the negotiations at Taba, when he came up with another "bottom line" offer that was much closer to what both sides could have reasonably expected. But Arik's little pilgrimmage to Al Asqua kind of screwed that over, for good...)

As for deconstructing that piece of history, you know damn well that for every Dennis Ross there is a Robert Malley, a debate that played out in the New York Times.

And one more thing: don't you dare presume to tell me what "I know." No wonder you've made so many friends here. Continued good luck.

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Maggot ]


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maggot I would trust Dennis Ross explicitly. You dont because it does not suit your hypothesis. That's fine. And as for your comment on my friends here...well frankly, such statements I find pretty lame.

quote:
It is a shame you don't see that your homeland was built upon the blood and suffering of another people.
My "homeland" is Canada.

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Maggot
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posted 23 April 2003 07:21 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Hey, before you go on tarring people -- they actually call that "libel," dude -- I never said that. Take it back. Now.
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Michelle
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posted 23 April 2003 07:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think he was responding to two separate posts in one message - yours and then WingNut's.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
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posted 23 April 2003 07:24 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, you're probably right.
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Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 07:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No I was libeling Maggott with Wing's post

Just kidding


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Maggot
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posted 23 April 2003 07:56 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Would that make me collateral damage?
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 April 2003 08:03 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If there had been a Jewish state in 1939 there would have been no Holocaust.

Who's to say. Rewriting history has inherent contradictions. Where would this "Jewish state" have existed? In Palestine? If so, the Nakba would have occurred under different circumstances. What would the ramifications have been then? The Zionists wouldn't have had the world's sympathy that they have enjoyed without the Holocaust.

Assuming that Palestine were where this state would have existed, do you not agree that Hitler would have provided the Afrika Korps with enough materiel ("Barbarossa" wouldn't have been so urgent, I don't think) to send a blitzkrieg to Palestine, where most of the world's jews would have been conveniently located?


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Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 08:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Assuming that Palestine were where this state would have existed, do you not agree that Hitler would have provided the Afrika Korps with enough materiel ("Barbarossa" wouldn't have been so urgent, I don't think) to send a blitzkrieg to Palestine, where most of the world's jews would have been conveniently located?


If Isarel had the strength it has today Hitler would have been in for a nasty surprise.

Bottom line, you're right to some extent it is a bit of guess work, however, I hold to the theory that a strong Israel in 1939 would have prevented wholesale murder of Jews.


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Mycroft_
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posted 23 April 2003 08:17 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If there had been a Jewish state in 1939 there would have been no Holocaust.

And if the German army had been victorious in North Africa in 1942 the Jews of Palestine would have been wiped out. Indeed, if there had been a Jewish state in 1942 don't you think Hitler would have made Palestine more of a target?


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 April 2003 08:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Isarel had the strength it has today Hitler would have been in for a nasty surprise.

...and if Hitler had nukes, too?


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Mishei
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posted 23 April 2003 08:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wasn't referring to nukes. I was referring to the ability of Israel through the IDF to take care of itself.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 April 2003 08:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, the IOF is pretty tough against old ladies and 12 year-olds armed with stones...uh, I mean "rocks."
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DrConway
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posted 23 April 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, in 1973 the IDF showed that its troops were capable of quick thinking and improvisation on the field. So in a battle between equally-matched armies the IDF was able to hold its own.

If we imagine Israel, minus the nukes, as in 1942 no nukes had ever been made and in fact the practical footing for one awaited Fermi's work on the atomic pile to show that self-sustaining fission was indeed possible, facing the Wehrmacht, let us say an army of 1 million men, with two million held in reserve to battle the Soviets, I would have my grave doubts about the IDF being able to hold on indefinitely.

I would submit that the IDF at that time, a la Yugoslavia, been able to tie up enemy resources and inflict heavy losses before the occupation succeeded.

Now, the question changes dramatically if you assume the IDF had no professional training and was not, as it is today, a modern and efficient fighting force.

I am afraid that the Wehrmacht would indeed have been able to simply stampede right over Palestine.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 09:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry I disagree. Israel demonstrated that for its size it had the best fighting force in the world. Remember it faced down the collective armies of five Arab nations in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. In the early wars they were not a well equipped army as they are today and still managed through cunning and sheer determination to protect their nation. I have no doubt that if Israel were as sophisticated a nation in 1939 as it was by say 1956 Hitler would not have been able to succeed.

And of course we all know that the Arab nationas of the day including the Mufti of Jerusalem would have backed Israel all the way. Once the Mufti stopped licking the behinds of his nazi pals.

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 10:11 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are filled wit hate aren't you, Mishei?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 April 2003 10:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, I'm SO sick of your constant put-downs and name-calling of everyone who disagrees with you. Mishei is allowed to disagree with your point of view. All he did in that last post was to claim that in the second world war, there were Arab nations who supported Hitler. My own ex-husband told me that Iran's leadership was somewhat sympathetic to Nazi Germany as well, and he didn't tell me that because he hates Iranians. It is not "hateful" to talk about historical alliances between nations and political leaders.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 10:26 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"stop licking the behind of his Nazi pals" is not a put down? Hmmm, what is it?

I agree the Mufti was wrong in his support of Germany, but it must be viewed in context. The Mufti correctly recognized Britain as an enmey, and a colonial enemy at that, and forged ties with Britain's enemies. The old an "enemy of my enemy" thng might be ethically wrong, but it held true then and stil does today. Consider the alliance of the fundamentalist christian right and the zionist right.

Ireland was neutral in the Second World War for much the same reason. Was it wrong? Yeah. But they still viewed Britain as a colonizer and an enemy with a history of atrocities the Irish never suffered from the Germans.

Healing doesn't begin with the tearing open of old wounds.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 April 2003 10:28 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He was talking about a political figure, WingNut.

Did you go and complain to josh that he was full of hate when he started a thread called "Bush's endless media blowjob?"

Give me a break. It's political commentary. To claim that someone is "full of hate" because they make strong claims about past historical figures is just not valid, and not only that, but it's nasty too.

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 10:29 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree the Mufti was wrong in his support of Germany, but it must be viewed in context.
There can be no context for anyone who went to visit Hitler to support his annihalation of the Jews. Why are you defending that bastard?

Grand Mufti and Hitler

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 April 2003 10:33 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
See, Mishei, now you're making it personal too. Why assume that WingNut is "defending" the Mufti instead of trying to explain the dynamics behind the historical events? When you say he's "defending" the Mufti, you're implying that WingNut agrees with what he did, and he clearly stated that he did not.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 10:35 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know it is far more than political commentary.

And where are you when he calls me an apologist for Arafat, and he calls another babbler hateful, when he invokes judenstatrein to Satana's post, and anti-peace, and accuses me of lying for repeating waht he said, and another accustaion of being callow and unfeeling.

In fact, through this thread I have been mostly respectful. Then I read the last comment and felt a twinge. The same kind of twinge I feel when I hear Generals talking of killing people in a matter of fact way like businessmen talking of stock trades.

And you are all over me?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 April 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, read the post just above yours.

And there are lots of times when I have criticized Mishei for calling people "apologists for terrorists" and the like.

No, it ISN'T "more than" political commentary to claim that a past historical figure was in league with the Nazis, even if you use colourful language to put that across. People on babble use colourful metaphors every day to talk about the US and the various conspiracies they're involved with around the world. It's just part of political debate and commentary.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DaddySno
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posted 24 April 2003 10:39 AM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's about time.
From: Potissauga | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 10:59 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And where are you when he calls me an apologist for Arafat, and he calls another babbler hateful, when he invokes judenstatrein to Satana's post, and anti-peace, and accuses me of lying for repeating waht he said, and another accustaion of being callow and unfeeling.


Gee Wing you make it look as if I was wrong in these assesments. I have explained each and every one of them. You may not agree and that's your perogative.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Mishei. I have felt the same way.
And, likewise, you have the right to disagree with me.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 April 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My prerogative, then, is to repeat lagatta:

quote:
Sorry, Mishei, I don't find this acceptable:

"the new extreme leftist philosophy of ensuring a world that is "judenstatrein" in other words free of a Jewish state". (Should be Staat, by the way...).


I think I'd like (1) a definition of "extreme leftist," and then (2) some examples.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 April 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel demonstrated that for its size it had the best fighting force in the world. Remember it faced down the collective armies of five Arab nations in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. In the early wars they were not a well equipped army as they are today and still managed through cunning...

Some of this is right, although in 1973 the US airforce was painting Israeli markings over the US roundels and giving aircraft to Israel to make up for losses. 1967 was a sneak attack. Remember Pearl Harbour?

And Hezbollah kicked Israel out of Lebanon, which is why Mishei et al have so much of their special invective saved for that group of "terrorists.".


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 April 2003 12:58 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry I disagree. Israel demonstrated that for its size it had the best fighting force in the world. Remember it faced down the collective armies of five Arab nations in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973

Al Q. made part of my point for me - only in 1973 did Israel experience what would have been the conditions under which a hypothetical Israel extant in 1942 would have faced with respect to the German armies.

In 1948, the Israeli Jews fought what appears to be a rather uncoordinated war against equally uncoordinated opponents, and as it happens the opponents were booted out. This is not two professional armies fighting, Mishei.

In 1956 and 1967, both were marked by swift pre-emptive strikes by Israel, rather than the usual wait-and-see-to-see-if-they-invade.

No, Mishei. Only 1973 can be used to compare.

Even so the Israeli forces acquitted themselves well, with, as I said, innovative thinking on the front lines and considerable discretion being allowed to troop commanders.

I would still not be entirely confident. The German armies are not and were not the Arab armies - insufficiently trained and using equipment someone else made. They used their own military equipment or equipment out of the Skoda works, which the Sudeten Germans if nothing else would have known about.

I would like to say that Israel would mop the floor with a million-man invading German army, but logic tells me I can only say that on the balance of probabilities the result is uncertain.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadal hose on the "extreme left" have made common cause with the extreme right especially in the area of Holocaust denial.

For example, Roger Garaudy's anti-Zionist book The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics, which also distorts the Holocaust, was originally published in France by the radical left and was then translated and published in Italy by the extreme right. Garaudy was also invited to Italy by extreme right elements to lecture on his thesis.

The second example is from well respected leftist French historian Pierre Vidal Naquet who had this to say in an excellent thesis to which I will provbide the link below:

quote:
In several countries, on the contrary, revisionism is the specialty not of the racist and anti-Semitic extreme right, but of several groups of individuals coming from the extreme left. This is the case in Sweden following the intervention on Robert Faurisson's behalf of the extreme left-wing sociologist Jan Myrdal, whose intervention was on behalf not merely of the man but, in part, of his ideas;[62] in Australia, following the action of the former secretary of the Victorian Council for Civil Liberties, John Bennett;[63] and even in Italy, where a small Marxist libertarian group invokes its debt to Paul Rassinier.[64]


Pierre Vadel-Naquet

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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skdadl
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posted 24 April 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for those sources, Mishei.

And thank goodness you meant them, Mishei. I was thinking that you might have been implying something about fellow babblers. Whew, eh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 24 April 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei is quoting Pierre Vidal-Niquet, a signatory to the French "Not in my name" declaration against Sharon's policies and for an end to the occupation.

Roger Garaudy and his "red-brown" ilk have no credibility whatsoever in any faction of the French left, from the Socialist Party and the Greens to the LCR and Alternative libertaire. I have translated at several Social Forum type events over there and all of these factions think Garaudy is full of shite.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 April 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you too, lagatta.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 April 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't even know anything about those people, and while I'm not the best person to ask about the European left the fact that those names don't ring a bell over here would tend to suggest that those on the extreme left who engage in Holocaust denial/revisionism are just as marginal as those on the extreme right.

Hell, I didn't even know who the hell this Faurisson guy was until Mishei started bringing him up all the time when trashing Chomsky.


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DaddySno
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posted 24 April 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for DaddySno     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And Hezbollah kicked Israel out of Lebanon, which is why Mishei et al have so much of their special invective saved for that group of "terrorists.".

I love the sneer quotes. Hezbollah is a political force, don't you know ?

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: DaddySno ]


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lagatta
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posted 24 April 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a copy of the French text "En tant que juifs", signed by Pierre Vidal-Naquet et al.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/d-d.natanson/en_tant_que_juifs.htm


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 03:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta, what exactly is your point. I know he has been a vocal opponent of Sharon but he has done so with some grace. Vidal-Naquet has also exposed the extreme left for what thet are and for that we should thank him.
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WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 03:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am sorry to see you using loaded terms such as "extreme left" mishei. What does that mean? Have you joined the extreme right?

And having read a translated version of the linked article, Vidal-Naquet, argues much the same as what is aften argued here. Is he an extreme leftist?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing get with the progrm and read the thread. I provided Vidal-Naquet as a source for Skdadl in understanding the extreme left. Vidal-Naquet exposes them much better than I .
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 03:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But Lagatta tells us, and she appears to have much credibility, that those you claim to be on the "extreme left," which you are yet to define, have no credibility with the left in France. You offer nothing to counter that but ask what is her point. Perhaps more appropriate is what is your point?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 24 April 2003 04:00 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My point is that the signatories of this petition come from all corners of the French left, from people in around the Socialist Party to others close to the Greens, ATTAC or the LCR (Revolutionary Communist League). The LCR and Alternative libertaire are usually counted as part of the "far left" on the French political spectrum, in articles on the 2 rounds of the most recent elections for example. I followed those elections closely because of the threat posed by the far right (Le Pen, and another splinter group from the Front National). Unless you are referring to terrorist groups or tiny knots of people.

My point is there is virtually NOBODY on the left, moderate, far, social or otherwise, in France who would have any truck with anti-semitic propaganda. That does not mean that an individual on the left can't express racial prejudice against Jews, Arabs and/or Muslims or any other human group. Remember the discussion we had a few months ago: "Is the NDP a racist party?". It is impossible to be free of all racism in a society where it exists, even while combatting it.

A lot of the people in May 1968, Jews and non-Jews, were radicalised around not only the Vietnam war but issues of violent racism such as the Holocaust and lynchings against Blacks in the US South. That was certainly my case.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 April 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just about every North American woman I know of my age (born mid- to late 1940s) was first radicalized by reading the Diary of Ann Frank -- when we were about the same age Ann was as she wrote.

Every political choice I've made in my adult life has been governed by my memories of that life and that book.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well Wing it wasn't me that identified those on the extreme left in France. I provided a piece by Vidal-Naquet. It was he who pointed to the key individuals.

As I said get with the program.


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Whazzup?
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posted 24 April 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My point is there is virtually NOBODY on the left, moderate, far, social or otherwise, in France who would have any truck with anti-semitic propaganda.

This is laughable.

Let's take one random case, that of the "nobody" Jose Bove. Last April, he commented on the wave of bombings and attacks on Jewish targets in France, and was quoted in Liberation as saying this:

quote:
Il faut se demander à qui profite le crime. Je dénonce tous les actes visant des lieux de culte. Mais je crois que le gouvernement israélien et ses services secrets ont intérêt à créer une certaine psychose, à faire croire qu'un climat antisémite s'est installé en France, pour mieux détourner les regards.

That's right, folks, it's the Mossad who's been organizing attacks on Jewish homes and Jewish civilians at French peace rallies. All part of a master plan, don't you know?

For the truth about anti-Semitism in France, you can consult the recent report of the Commission Nationale Consultative des Droits de l’Homme, which I cited on another thread. Click


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 April 2003 05:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Il faut se demander à qui profite le crime. Je dénonce tous les actes visant des lieux de culte. Mais je crois que le gouvernement israélien et ses services secrets ont intérêt à créer une certaine psychose, à faire croire qu'un climat antisémite s'est installé en France, pour mieux détourner les regards.

This loosely translates as follows:

"It is necessary to ask who profits from the crime. I denounce all acts aimed at places of worship. But I believe that the Israeli government and its secret service have an interest in creating a certain belief, at making a belief that an anti-semitic climate is present in France, for diverting the looks (better translated as diverting attention)."

Whazzup, it sounds like you've pulled the old drive-by smear job of lifting a quote out of context, untranslated, and then offering your own excuse. That would work if you were in the USA, but this isn't the United States - most babblers can read at least some French.

It seems that M. Bove appears to be critiquing, as have others, the tendency of the Israeli government to use the broadside of anti-semitism to deflect criticism of its actions.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 April 2003 06:31 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You disappoint, Whazzup, as you have been such a stickler for detail in the past.

Anyway, back on the thread topic...

Gush Shalom: Abu against Abu

quote:
Abu-Mazens position may, perhaps, have been stronger if the US and Israel had not been so obviously trying to impose him on the Palestinian people. The examples of poor Karzai in Afghanistan and the miserable gang of emigres whom the Americans brought to Iraq are certainly not helping Abu-Mazen, despite his being one of the founders of the Fatah movement.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 April 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it is laughable.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 April 2003 06:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, what the hell are you doing? How do you jump from that quote to Bove's accusing the Mossad of those crimes?
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lagatta
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posted 24 April 2003 07:07 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Like skdadl, I'd say the first things that radicalised me as a lass were - other than the Vietnam war that was somewhat more complex - issues of racism.

Reading A Diary of Anne Frank, of course - all young writers, especially girls, have read that, I believe. Also the church bombing in Birmingham where the four Black girls were killed. Also with respect to the Holocaust, seeing the number tattooed on a friend's mum's forearm. And in my case, the ill-treatment of Canada's own aboriginal peoples - as I had a relative who worked in the field of Native rights.

Such issues of injustice hit home in a way that even the own poverty of my own family did not. And though I never was interested in the traditional feminine role, and hated being treated as "just a girl", feminism came later, because at the time I thought girls and women were giddy or housebound.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 24 April 2003 07:50 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I reply to Mishei in "Germany for the Germans! Palestine for the Jews!"
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 24 April 2003 08:03 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
from "Abu against Abu":
quote:
Arafat represents the first. He is much more than a "symbol", as he is often described. He is a leader possessing an unequalled moral authority among his own people and vast experience in international affairs. He has steered the Palestinian national movement away from subjugation to Arab and international interests and led it from near oblivion to the threshold of independence.
What?! No wonder nobody listens to the Israeli "far-left"!

[ 24 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 April 2003 08:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Been away for the afternoon and evening and I haven't responded to a couple of things. First of all, sorry for not having picked up on that German word that Mishei used - WingNut was wondering why I didn't say something about that. The reason is because I didn't know what the word meant and didn't catch the Nazi allusion. By the time I had read the posts responding (in which it was explained), people had already countered his point, and I felt it had been suitably addressed by lagatta and the point seemed to be taken.

Darn, there was something else, but I have forgotten. Oh well. If I remember then I'll write it.

Oh yes! Lagatta's double posts. There were double posts. But whenever I see multiple posts by lagatta I cull the extras, by agreement with her. So no, you guys weren't imagining things.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 April 2003 09:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW Michelle and opthers respond as you should but the term I used was specific to the feeling that I believe many jews have today of those who would deny Jews a state of their own. It is not meant to apply to individuals, it is meant as a passionate and yes harsh realization of what may happene if these individuals are granted their preference.

Most Jews will have sympathy with this I am sure.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 April 2003 12:36 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Could someone please change the thread title?

"Arafat continues to screw...Mishei" conjures up the most disturbing of images.

Ed. - And now that I've posted, I'm really getting a case of the heebie-jeebies!

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 25 April 2003 10:02 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you guys actually believe the stuff you write?

DrC, "une certaine psychose" does not translate into "a certain belief." Do you think that those who believe that anti-Semitism is on the rise in France are victims of a "psychosis"? Do you have any clue at all what's going on in France?

And tell me, skdadl, what do you think Bove meant by "Il faut se demander à qui profite le crime." You're familiar with the Latin phrase "Cui bono?" I assume. You know what it suggests. Since Bove himself says that those who believe anti-Semitism exists in France are psychotic, then it's clear that the widespread attacks on synagogues and Jews in France are not motivated by anti-Semitism. So what are they motivated by? Please explain. Cui bono?

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: Whazzup? ]


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 April 2003 10:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, I apologize for the tone of my response to you, although not for the content. (I was all het up yesterday over something else. The rhetoric rose. Do forgive.)

It seemed to me that you were implying tight logical links between those sentences of Bove's, and as I first read them, I saw no such links. I can't be sure whether your reading or mine is right (Bove's rhetorical tactic -- asking questions -- is itself a clever bit of evasion), but I thought you were claiming that Bove claims that Mossad is behind these acts, and I still don't see that the passage you cite (context?) says that.


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Whazzup?
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posted 25 April 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A "clever bit of evasion" is about right, I think. (Thanks for the olive branch, btw.)

I would say he's being calculating. He begins by asking who profits from the crime (Cui bono?). By now, everyone knows that this is a way of asking who is likely responsible for the crime. (It's an evasive shorthand used by conspiracy theorists from Jim Garrison to 9/11.) He ends his explanation by seeming to answer his own question -- by talking about the Mossad.

I believe it's clear as day that he's saying that the Mossad is behind attacks on French Jews. But you're quite right that he's not explicit about it. Anti-Semites are usually smarter than that.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 25 April 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You, know, I really find this disgusting.
He said one thing that might not have been the best thing to say. Do you have any other evidence, Whazzup? of Bove's antisemetism, or is that it?

Imagine a guy who has spearheaded much of the French antiglobalization campaign, who understands the extent the security state will go to, being suspicious of secret police and spies who at one time used Candian passports. Gosh.

Is that the best you can do?

If you made any offhand remarks about Palestinians, perhaps blaming Arafat for the suffering of his own people, is that conclusive evidence that you are a anti-Arab racist?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 25 April 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Last post on the subject here:

You know, WingNut, it doesn't really bother me that anti-Semitism is alive among some Leftist activists. I don't believe that "the Left" as a whole is anti-Semitic (or even more anti-Semitic than the Right), and I agree with lagatta that it is "impossible to be free of all racism in a society where it exists, even while combatting it."

What bothers me is the extent to which people will deny racism exists. NOBODY on the left has any truck with anti-Semitic propaganda, says one poster. Anyone who believes that anti-Semitism in France is a serious problem is the victim of a "psychosis," says Bove. And then you come along with your stirring denunciation of Bove's comments, that it "might not have been the best thing to say." I don't know why you feel the need to soft-pedal this problem.

I'm assuming your last coy little question is a way of using the same kind of evasive smear tactics against me.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 25 April 2003 11:57 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please give me a break.

You can interpret any way you want but it is a reasonable question.

There is undoubtedly a problem with antisemitism in France currently. But with LePen and others on the right who are decidely antisemetc it surprises me it is an activist on the left who gets your attention.

So we see, suddenly, that the pro-Israeli organizations and right wing pro-globalization organizations have suddenly begun tying the antiglobalization to all the worlds evils from antisemitsim to terrorism.

Yeah, it is the opposition to the WTO that threatens world peace and the survival of Israel. Meanwhile Le Pen, skinheads and other antisemites get a walk.

This isn't about antisemitism. This is smear politics.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 25 April 2003 12:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't know why you feel the need to soft-pedal this problem.

Wing has a position that does not view Israel or anything that would bring any sympathy or concern to Israel kindly. As such he soft pedals any such issues.

quote:
But with LePen and others on the right who are decidely antisemetc it surprises me it is an activist on the left who gets your attention.


Yes Le Pen is a problem. But we sort of expect that Le Pen would be an anti-Semite we don't expect renowned and sympathetic leftists to to go anywhere near anti-Semitism. That is why an activist on the left gets our attention as he should get yours.

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 April 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That sounds like the answer many babblers give when asked why the excessive focus on Israel when dictatorships like Saudi go unscathed. Because from a dictatorship it's only to be expected, and no big surprise, even though we don't like it. Whereas Israel is the one country in the region that is held up as the place where western, democratic values prevail.

As such, I have to say that I agree with Whazzup? on this one. Saying that LePen is worse because he's much more openly anti-semitic does not mean that we cannot also clean house in our own movement.

Since I only speak English, I can't judge whether or not Bove did say something anti-Semitic in that excerpt. But I think it's important that if one of "our own" says something problematic, we should be able to criticize it. Otherwise it starts sounding like the same arguments from the "America Right Or Wrong" camp - you can't criticize the US because there are other countries that are worse.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Saladin
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posted 25 April 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for Saladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As such he soft pedals any such issues.

In another thread about Syrian occupation of Lebanon WingNut attacked me because of my name and its racial/ethnic origins as a way to discredit my protest again Syrian colonialism.

As someone else said in that thread

quote:
WingNut, you are really scraping the gutter's bottom.

From: damascus | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 25 April 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Saladin , I understand
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 April 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just noticed, this is over a hundred posts.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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