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Author Topic: US will leave WMD's behind as gift to Iraqis
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2003 10:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
US rejects Iraq DU clean-up
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 14 April 2003 10:27 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy crazy headlines Batman!

First DU rounds are not weapons of mass destruction. if we are talkignabout possible unintended consequences then we have found WMD in Iraqs arsenal vis a vis pesticides and an entire nuclear complex.

But i wll agree, we probably should try to clean this stuff up. i dotn think it harms anything but if it appeases the left then lets do it.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2003 10:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is not. If some crazy Iraqi spread DU all over New York would it be a WMD then? According to documents linked by writer the FBI would think so.

But then you Yanks always believe what you do is okay and what anyone else does is evil. So, I'm not surprised by your reaction.

But tell me, if a terrorist sprayed RoundUp Ultra over the drinking supplies of Americans, used it to poison your soil and spread it all over your foods, and over your children would you consider that a chemical attack?

No? Good. I mean, thank god. Because your country does it almost daily to Colombians. But hey, they are poor, brown people, right?

Do you know where Colombia is?

[ 14 April 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 14 April 2003 11:35 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut, yes, i know where it is at. Borded by Peru, Ecuador, Panama, Brazil and Venezuela. famous for its coffee and cocaine. Home of the FARC.

Thanks for admitting that Saddam did have terrorist WoMD (pesticides and such).

Oh, and I happen to be marrying one of those "brown people". The only difference would be that she is an Arab, but just as brown.

Do not ever accuse me of racism again.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
tyoung
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posted 14 April 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post
DU rounds are not wmds strictly speaking, but twenty years of the radioactive dust working its way through the food chain is not healthy. Fortunately for the yanks, it probably won't be an issue: many of the iraqis affected by DU fallout will never have a chance to develop cancers from long-term exposure, since cluster-bomb injuries, disease, malnutrition and violence will probably finish them off in the short-term.

Check it out: The leukemia rate in Sarajevo, pummeled by American bombs in 1996, has tripled in the last five years.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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posted 14 April 2003 11:53 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
DU rounds are not wmds strictly speaking

[pet peeve] Nor, for that matter, are pesticides, or any other variety of chemical weapons. [/pet peeve]


From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 15 April 2003 12:39 AM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000000542D.htm

quote:
In epidemiological studies of more than 32,000 workers, exposed to uranium between 1943 and 1986 in nuclear installations in the USA and UK, no health impairment that could be related to this metal was observed, other than renal problems. Among these workers the general mortality was lower than in the general population, and mortality due to all cancers and leukaemia was also lower.


Among about 150,000 soldiers, who for various periods of time were in Kosovo between March 1999 and the end of 2000, 17 have so far died due to leukaemia. This corresponds to about 11 deaths per 100,000 soldiers. The annual leukaemia death rate in the UK is 11 per 100,000. Thus, the rate of soldiers dying due to leukaemia seems to fit the European norm.


http://www.rubella.net/DepletedUranium/Murky.htm

quote:
Close monitoring of 63 US Gulf War veterans wounded by ''friendly fire'' show the depleted uranium (DU) shrapnel in their bodies that surgeons could not remove has yet to cause any cancers. While the veterans have high levels of uranium in their urine, none as yet has suffered kidney damage or cancer, nor have they fathered children with birth defects, said Dr. Kelley Brix, deputy chief of research and development for the US Department of Veterans Affairs.

The most common scientific argument made against the existence of Balkans syndrome is that the radiation from DU munitions have added only 1% to background radiation normally absorbed from the ground, food and other sources.



From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 15 April 2003 12:57 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gulf War Syndrome II

quote:
"People are sick over there already," said Dr. Doug Rokke, former director of the Army's depleted uranium (DU)project. "It's not just uranium. You've got all the complex organics and inorganics [compounds] that are released in those fires and detonations. And they're sucking this in.... You've got the whole toxic wasteland."

(snip)

Rokke said today's troops have been fighting on land polluted with chemical, biological and radioactive weapon residue from the first Gulf War and its aftermath. In this setting, troops have been exposed not only to sandstorms, which degrade the lungs, but to oil fires and waste created by the use of uranium projectiles in tanks, aircraft, machine guns and missiles.

"That's why people started getting sick right away, when they started going in months ago with respiratory, diarrhea and rashes – horrible skin conditions," Rokke said. "That's coming back on and they have been treating them at various medical facilities. And one of the doctors at one of the major Army medical facilities – he and I talk almost every day – and he is madder than hell." Rokke declined to identify his Army medical contact.

DU, or Uranium-238, is a byproduct of making nuclear reactor fuel. It is denser and more penetrating than lead, burns as it flies, and breaks up and vaporizes on impact – which makes it very deadly. Each round fired by a tank shoots one ten-pound uranium dart that, in addition to destroying targets, scatters into burning fragments and creates a cloud of uranium particles as small as one micron. Particles that small can enter lung tissue and remain embedded.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 15 April 2003 01:04 AM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The core of each round contained about 0.82 kg of almost pure uranium-238, from which its 14 radioactive daughters and uranium-235 were separated.

From one of my sources

Each round fired by a tank shoots one ten-pound uranium dart that, in addition to destroying targets, scatters into burning fragments and creates a cloud of uranium particles as small as one micron. Particles that small can enter lung tissue and remain embedded.


From slim's source.


Thre is an (approx) 8 pound discrepancy. anyone know why?


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 15 April 2003 07:52 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The tobacco industry provided evidence for years demonstrating smoking did not cause cancer.

DU is a harmful substance capable of causing mass deaths. If the best you can come up with is that Iraq had pesticides, thsi surely pales in comparison to the WMDF's employed by your country against brown, Arab people you are allegedly liberating only after the WMD lie became obvious.

Perhaps you, yourself, are not racist. I don't know. What about your nation? Why are some lives so mch cheaper than others?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 15 April 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*squeezes in between Wingnut and Tom*

Wingy, making generalisations about "Yanks" certainly doesn't help your argument. i don't believe that the willingness of hawks to condone civilian deaths is primarily due to racism, though certainly anti-Arab, anti-Muslim sentiment is present at unacceptable levels in the US--and, more disturbingly, among the US troops in Iraq.

rather than race differences, i believe that both in Afghanistan and Iraq there has been a gradation that is a function of distance, both physical and psychical. maybe i'll start a thread on this sometime. for now, suffice it to say that it's telling that Tom didn't answer certain other questions of yours that basically asked, "what if it weren't so far away from us?" should have stuck to that, imho.

Hanky, i'm curious to know something. what if your fiancée had been in Iraq--say Baghdad or Nassiriyah, for argument's sake. what if there were a danger that she could be among those bombed in the coalition attack? would you really come so easily to a pro-war position, or would you do everything in your power to make sure that there was zero chance of her being killed, struggling at the same time to remove the oppression that also threatened her?

what if (istaghfiru allâh) she were killed?

[ 15 April 2003: Message edited by: Mohamad Khan ]


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
tyoung
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posted 15 April 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post
Hey! I'm the one calling the yanks "yanks", thank you very much.

HT: the studies you cite have a couple of flaws: they mention leukemia, but not other types of cancer. As well, soldiers are exposed for a much shorter time than residents, which could explain the discrepancy. The second study, where soldiers have DU shrapnel in thier bodies is tougher to discount, however. Perhaps its the way the body absorbs it, or that residents are in a state of weakened immunity due to other factors...

The weight discrepancy is simple: different sized shells. As for the nuke worker stats, well, maybe some of those shells have a bit more than DU in them, and Kosovars and Iraqis were/are actually exposed to other substances as well, accounting for differing effects:

SHELLS fired in the Gulf war and Kosovo were made out of material contaminated by a potentially lethal cocktail of nuclear waste, according to a book published this week. The claim, supported by American army and government documents, suggests that the military in Kosovo and Iraq used depleted uranium (DU) shells containing traces of elements that indicate the probable presence of plutonium and other highly toxic nuclear by-products....Last week United Nations officials investigating the effects of DU in Kosovo confirmed they had found traces of elements indicating plutonium. According to the authors, the only possible source for DU containing plutonium are Paducah, Portsmouth and Oak Ridge, which used the contaminated uranium.

The point here is not that DU should be reclassified as a wmd, but that it is really nasty stuff, and its recent history of use by the yanks poses some questions as to the morality of its use. Sure, you guys are gonna spread around a little "freedom", but what else are you laying down out there in the process?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 15 April 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A: If my fiancee were in any Iraqi City while the Saddam regime was in power I would have joined the marines. Short of that I would have organized a mercenary force. It would have sukced for me had she died in the shelling/bombing but i am only one person. As much as it might hurt i would place the lives of the majority over the happiness of myself.

I know theis war has killed people not asscoaited with the regime. Everyday my roomate and I talk about it.
We also talkabout the Aide people want to send to countries that are ruled over by Bloodthirsty dictators and we wonder if perhpas the deaths of a thousand civilians, the maiming of a thousand more isnt worth delivering them from such opression. i feel that it is. I have been in love with Islam ( particularly Shi'ism) and Arabic/Persian Culture since my sophomore year in university (that was over 6 years ago). It pains me to see these people suffer. It pains me more to know that my country can do something about it but instead sits on its hands.

My only hope is we go into Israel next.

As of yet i have seen no conclusive evidence of DU toxicity. As i have said before, if it gives the Left less ammunition then fine, lets do away with DU, tungsten cored shells worked nearly as well.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 16 April 2003 12:50 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A: If my fiancee were in any Iraqi City while the Saddam regime was in power I would have joined the marines. Short of that I would have organized a mercenary force.

i don't quite follow...why would you join the Marines or organise a mercenary force? do you mean that you'd want to lead a pure ground attack into the city instead of bombing it? wish coalition forces had thought of that.

quote:
It would have sukced for me had she died in the shelling/bombing but i am only one person. As much as it might hurt i would place the lives of the majority over the happiness of myself.

er...right. but there's an odd sort of monetarisation discourse at work in your post that's privileging yourself and completely de-voicing the Iraqi civilian, or in the hypothetical example, your fiancée. when you say "it would have sucked for me had she died," it sounds as though you're talking about a monetary investment or an inanimate good. the problem with this is that your fiancée also has agency and she may also have certain wishes; for example that most basic of human wishes, to remain alive. however much it might suck for you, it would suck infinitely more for her. as for placing the lives of the majority over the happiness of yourself...it's not necessarily about saving the "lives" of the majority, nor is your "happiness" the only thing that is at stake, unless your fiancée is miraculously the only one being bombed. frankly, i think it's more like placing your own comfort over the lives of a margin of people.

what i mean by that is this: the lynchpin of your argument, and indeed of the entire pro-war argument is that in situations like these, there is no solution but war. this is a very facile position to take, and human beings have been taking it (in both senses of the phrase) for millenia. i believe that there are other solutions waiting to be born, if we're willing to get off our asses and formulate them, imagine them, and assay them. coming up with such alternatives is the most difficult thing in the world, which is why even in the peace camp so few people have put any forward.

it takes the kind of combined human co-operation, mental exertion, time, and imagination that you'll never have to worry about if you're a hawk following the dictates of your leader and flopping down for the show, or if you're a dove shouting slogans and repeating ideologies but never engendering difference. these are comfortable positions, but not particularly noble ones. i keep saying that i cannot be pro-war because i refuse to believe the mantra that there is no alternative, and i refuse to believe in the death of imagination. to imagine is so difficult...but then i suppose giving birth to anything is excruciating. if my girl could give birth to a human life, couldn't i give birth to the idea of Life? or is it that we men can't stand the pain of labour?


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 April 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice punchline, MK.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 16 April 2003 02:01 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dead people, assuming my faincee had died, have no wishes, no desires no needs thus it would have sucked for me, not for her. upon the moment of death you cease to care much. Thus the only person who can be hurt by her death is myself and her family, being able to only speak for myself i chose to do just that.

And if you mean by "monetarization" that i put a value or sense of worth in my fiancee, i certainly do.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 April 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dead people, assuming my faincee had died, have no wishes, no desires no needs thus it would have sucked for me, not for her. upon the moment of death you cease to care much. Thus the only person who can be hurt by her death is myself and her family,

Ye. Gods.

Our own deaths don't matter to us. Wow.

Hanky, I have a long line of brave friends I'd love to introduce you to -- people taking chemotherapy, for instance, or people now in Afghanistan or Iraq, minds wonderfully concentrated by the experience -- who would certainly tell you that their lives and their possible imminent deaths are matters of great weight and interest to them.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
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posted 16 April 2003 02:58 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Notice that i was posting this assuming she was already dead or her death inevitable.

If her death were preventable sure i might have apprehensions to military conflict but they would be ultimately selfish and based upon emotion rather than upon a rational understanding of the Iraqi people's desire to be free, to stop living under a regime that kills them and steals from them and the threat that Regime caused to many of the world's nations.

it was a human shiled who quoted an Iraqi Cab driver as saying something along the lines " If the Americans do not come soon i will commit suicide". These people were being murded.

unfortuantely our military intervention has not ben the panacea the iraqi people have been looking for. They have lived in a nightmare world that could only be combatted by dreaming of a fantasyland. When the US failed to live up to that fantasy we have been condemned. This si not going to be a qucik fix. In 6 months i think everything will be goig much more smoothly.

If Six months after a stray bomb hit my fiancee i could see happy children playing in a free iraq where women are not raped as a matter of interrogation, men are not deprived of their fingers, then i suppose her death may have been worth it.


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 April 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey! I'm the one calling the yanks "yanks", thank you very much.



Please do accept my apologies. Sometimes between "either with or against us" and "upon the moment of death you cease to care much" along with "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" I get to losing my sense of perspective.

But you are right. Not all Americans think alike. Again, apologies to you and any others from that great nation (with such a miserable government) below the 49th.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged

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