babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Free Kurdistan?

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Free Kurdistan?
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 10 April 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ABC News is reporting that the Turkish government is *demanding* that the US evict Kurdish military forces from Kirkuk as soon as possible. Colin Powell promised Turkey before the war began that the Kurds wouldn't be allowed into Kirkuk so as to deny the Kurds control of the area's rich oil fields. With control of the oil fields the viability of an independent Kurdistan increases.

Is it too soon for the anti-war movement to adopt the slogan of "Free Kurdistan"?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 11 April 2003 09:22 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is it too soon for the anti-war movement to adopt the slogan of "Free Kurdistan"?

Too SOON???? No, far too late, my friend. Far. too. late. I would suggest you try that slogan out at your next peace march, and gauge the reaction of any Kurd who happens upon it.

And why, as an opponent of war, would you want to support a cause that would certainly lead to a far bloodier conflict than anything Saddam or Turkey has yet unleashed on the Kurds? (I'm assuming that "Free Kurdistan" means, as it generally does, an independent state carved out of Turkey, Iraq, and other countries.)

Support Kurdish autonomy, Kurdish linguistic rights, the right of Kurds to live free of torture and gas attacks. These are all excellent causes. But it's a shame you couldn't have adopted those slogans when the Kurds were begging for your support over the past several months.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 11 April 2003 09:35 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because that wasn't the way for it to happen. Now that the Americans have chosen this path, it now becomes there responsibility to encourage Kurdish freedom. If they hadn't, we would instead be telling them to also stop supporting Turkey.

The logic is very plain. They chose war and now they are going to have to see the aftermath through in a just way. I don't expect them to. If they hadn't chosen war, it wouldn't be their responsibility.

[ 11 April 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 11 April 2003 09:35 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, I am disappointed in you, truly disappointed.

I have regularly been typing on to these threads, for months now, Free Kurdistan! As. You. Well. Know.

And I have faced no backlash. See? I'll do it again:

Free Kurdistan!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 11 April 2003 09:51 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did it ever occur to you that there is a reason why northern Iraq's Kurdish leaders don't want to hear the chants of "Free Kurdistan"? Why Barham Salih, the democratically-elected PUK leader, was shooing Kurdish troops out of Kirkuk yesterday? Did it ever cross your mind that Kurds simply want the killing to stop?

Kurdish socialists begged support from the Left for their cause before the war began. They were greeted with stony silence, as the "anti-war" crowd pretended that Saddam wasn't already at war with the Kurds. Now, with Saddam gone, you want to support a slogan that can only lead to more bloodshed?

Why not support a position that leads to greater safety and security for the Kurds, instead of opposing the removal of Saddam before the war, and encouraging a nationalist-inspired bloodbath afterwards?


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 11 April 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, and on whose head lies the blame for all of this? Ours? I think not! It is the whole disgusting logic of opportunistic liberation that is now biting the Kurds in the derrière. Terrible. So, Free Kurdistan! Do you think that if the Americans decided to carve out a Kurdish state Turkey would go to war? You're kidding, right?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 11 April 2003 10:18 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Damn it, Whazzup?, there was NOT stony silence about freeing the Kurds on this board before the war -- cut it out, Whazzup?.

Also, you appear not to have read any interviews with Turkish Kurds lately.

I repeat: Free Kurdistan!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 11 April 2003 10:19 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's going to get worse before it gets better.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 11 April 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The PUK again thanks the United States, Britain and other coalition countries for their support, sacrifice and leadership.

The PUK, unlike anyone on this board, was actually elected by northern Iraq's Kurds, and is responsible to them. And if you listened to any of its leaders' speeches, you would know that the PUK, as grateful as they were for the support over the years of the human rights establishment, was deeply disillusioned by the "anti-war" movement in the months leading up to the invasion.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 11 April 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I'm thinking about it, how are the Armenians? Is "Armenia" as it is constituted at present the home of Armenians?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 11 April 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I always thought that the decision of the US not to supress Iraqi units that moved against the Kurds on March 1991, in disregard for the recently accepted Gulf War cease fire, curious.

Should we be hailing a freedom that have not yet emerged from what is still a very volatile situation? Sure the Kurds should be a allowed to determine there own future, who here has said that they should not?

I am sorry some Kurds are disappointed that I have encouraged opposition to the war, but it is not because I reject Kurdish self-determination but because I simply do not trust the USA to deliver it.

As one Iraqi said to me: "freedom can not be given it must be taken."

I fear for the Kurds over the coming months, truly.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 11 April 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While I'm thinking about it, how are the Armenians? Is "Armenia" as it is constituted at present the home of Armenians?

Geeze, and they accuse George Bush of wanting to redraw the political borders of the world.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 11 April 2003 11:38 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have always wanted to redraw the political borders of the world. But along the lines that the people living within those borders really want. Actually, I don't want to redraw them, but at least I want to stop actively hindering the people there from doing it themselves.

Actually, I want to erase those borders, but I think they could do with some redrawing at least.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 11 April 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Atop Mountain, Rebel Kurds Cling to Radical Dream

quote:
"The only weak point is morale. The arrest of our president has shaken everyone very badly, and it has taken the past four years to get on our feet."



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 11 April 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While I'm thinking about it, how are the Armenians? Is "Armenia" as it is constituted at present the home of Armenians?

Demands for an independent Armenia have subsided since the collapse of the USSR had the result of Soviet Armenia becoming independent. Demands that the Armenian parts of Turkey should join Armenia would smack of expansionism and so don't get a lot of sympathy from non-Armenians and I haven't heard any such demands since Soviet Armenia became independent.

I don't know what the current situation of Armenians living in Turkey is though.

And actually, given the Armenian experience, you'd think the Turks would be in favour of a Kuridsh republic being carved out of Iraq since this would (if the Armenian example is any guide) generally satisfy demands for an independent Kurdish homeland and relieve the pressure on Turkey (and Iran).

Sure there would be some demanding a "greater Kurdistan" but those voices would be dimmer than the ones now calling for a free Kurdish homeland.

[ 11 April 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 11 April 2003 02:22 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Kurdish socialists begged support from the Left for their cause before the war began. They were greeted with stony silence, as the "anti-war" crowd pretended that Saddam wasn't already at war with the Kurds. Now, with Saddam gone, you want to support a slogan that can only lead to more bloodshed?

That is really quite unfair. Only one MP spoke on the Kurds in Canada during this war, and it was Svend Robinson. And there is as much support for the Kurdish cause as there is for most causes on this board. More than most.

If all that is done now is to mouth the slogan "Free Kurdistan" as a club to beat the US government with, then that's useless and maybe even harmful. That's not what's being suggested though, is it?

I have no doubt that the bulk of Kurdish people -- including the PUK -- would like nothing better than the Kurdish state for which they have fought for many years. But they are living in a constrained geopolitical situation, so they will take as much self-government as they can get. And yes that means self-government, not whole-hearted embrace of a federal Iraq, because people who have faced genocide tend not to beleive they can be safe without control of their own lives and their own lands. Self-government doesn't have to mean independence, and it does not necessarily have to go beyond Iraqi Kurdistan (although Kurds in Turkey will fight for their rights within Turkey, have no doubt), but it will have to be realized for any solution to last. I think the dream of a muticultural Iraq has been killed for ever by the Baath experience. Maybe something can be salvaged, but only if the Americans do not treat the Kurds (in Kissinger's words) as "a sideshow." Certainly, it's up to them to guarantee Kurdish self-government now.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 11 April 2003 02:52 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In order for Kurdish self-governemnt to have any real meaning or ability to sustaint itself, it will have to be given control of Kirkuk and a huge chunk of the revenue from that oil. Neither seems particularly likely . Hell, an internal civil war within Iraqi Kurdistan is a still a distinct possibility, and would probably be in US and Turkish interest. It would relegate the Kurds back to "sideshow".
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 11 April 2003 02:58 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a left group in Toronto/Ottawa called Arm the Spirit that's been working with the PKK and Kurdish refugees for a number of years.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve_Shutt
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2922

posted 11 April 2003 03:11 PM      Profile for Steve_Shutt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wazzup?, I take great offense at the suggestion that my past and present efforts to raise awarness for the plight of the Kurdish people (in Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran) is being twisted by people like yourself into somehow desiring or actively fostering a widening of the conflict.

Indeed the ferocity of your attack leads me to conclude that the fear, expressed by many on this board, that we are playing with some very flamable materials in the region, is shared by you.

Rare is it that an ethnic community is universally satisfied with the limiting their aspirations to something short of a state. From Israel to the Irish to the Basq to Quebec - there is a desire for more than mere survival but a very understandable, if often unwelcome, impetus to guarantee security by way of an independent state. Accomodations that are less than full statehood places one in the precarious position of having to rely on the good will of others, often the very same people who have been persecuting you, to ensure your continued freedoms - a prospect that history often suggests is not a smart bet.

The challenge is how and when to make one's bid. Do not doubt that the Turks are very worried a the long-term prospects of the Kurdish territories in Iraq. Do not doubt that the Kurds want an independent state. That their leadership has demonstrated the wisdom to play the cards they have been dealt as shrewdly as possible is a testament to their collective memory and, which I freely acknowledge, American diplomacy which did not make overt promisies of Kurdish independence as so many others had done in the past.


From: coming in off the left wing | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 14 April 2003 01:15 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kurdistan Observer: With friends like the USA, who needs enemies?
From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Saladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3663

posted 14 April 2003 04:41 PM      Profile for Saladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about free Lebanon! Or has everyone forgotten that it is still an occupied country.
From: damascus | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 14 April 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Colin Powell promised Turkey before the war began that the Kurds wouldn't be allowed into Kirkuk so as to deny the Kurds control of the area's rich oil fields. With control of the oil fields the viability of an independent Kurdistan increases.

I don't think Turkey needs to worry. There's no way the Americans will allow anyone but Americans to control the oil. I'm sure Exxon-Mobil is firing up the SS Condoleeza Rice to head out to start fillin' up on that sweet Iraqi dinosaur juice.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 14 April 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's not forget that some of the oilier folks in this administration have relationships with Ba'thists that go back to the mid 70's. Watch for these recent "enemies" to be swiftly promoted to middle managment positions in whatever bogus "Iraqi" oil company they start up in Kirkuk, while the Kurds continue to press their noses against the glass and pine for their old apartments in Kirkuk.

Meet the new boss...


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 14 April 2003 06:40 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The usual apologists for the US military machine may think it is inappropriate to raise the demand for an independent Kurdistan right now. After all, it goes against US promises to Turkey.

But the idea that people here have not raised the issue before is a big lie. I know I have mentioned it before on this board, and I have mentioned that, in the past I have been the lawyer for Kurds fleeing Saddam's regime. I have also represented Kurds who do not believe that the US will provide them with a chance to vote on secession from Iraq; and that, without any doubt, is what Kurds would do if permitted. So, the US will never permit that question to be asked in a referendum, or any other way.

Finally, the idea that the PUK is removing its fighters from Kirkuk is probably false. The only reference I have seen suggests they are telling those "who did not live there before" to leave. Of course, there is no verifiable record of any sort as to who lived there before, and what we are witnessing is a race to populate the city with
Kurds. I doubt their ultimate plan is to elect a couple of city councilours.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca