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Author Topic: Al-Jazeera Host: Muslims reject any Jewish State
Barry Stagg
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posted 05 April 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Barry Stagg   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC's Disclosure recently featured an interview with an Al-Jazeera host stating that no Muslims would ever accept the presence of a Jewish state. Any comments on this basic bigotry and how it relates to Western support for Israel's unqualified right to exist?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 April 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that fella may have been shooting his mouth off. Didn't the PLO amend its charter some time ago?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 05 April 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Vigorous [sic] writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentence, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell.

Strunk and White, The Elements of Style, 3rd ed., Macmillan: New York, 1979: p. 23


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Mishei
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posted 05 April 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes I saw this piece and it was down right scary. One major Al Jazeera commentator (he was referred to as the Tom Brokaw of Al Jazeera) even engaged in Holocaust denial. Apparantly he has had denieers on his program (like Larry King live with Ernst Zundel) to discuss if the Holocaust ever happened. When asked if he thought the Holocaust was real he at first danced around the issue then explained how it was more than likely a Jewish hoax. Can it be any wonder that there are those who not only mistrust Al Jazeera but wonder why it should ever get a Canadian license.

Canadian bid for al-Jazeera stirs debate


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Bubbles
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posted 05 April 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I have not checked lately, but it seemed to me that there were lots of folks in the Jeruzalem Post , for example, denying that Palistinians even exist. Lets have a bit of balance and not be too influenced by media hype. One can always find some unrealistic quotes to start another round of propaganda. As far as I am concerned Zundel is no better or worse then some of the anti-Palistinian denial coming out of Israel. It are the people, that use those words as an excuse to perpetrate violence, that are the problem. A failure to distinguish between reality and fantasy.
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Pathe Eton Hogg
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posted 05 April 2003 06:20 PM      Profile for Pathe Eton Hogg     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's only bad when the other side does it.
When the side we are on does it, words like "understandable" are tossed around, while explaning that "they do it too" becomes the smoke.

If it's wrong then it's wrong. Don't excuse it, fight it.


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Mishei
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posted 05 April 2003 09:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have not checked lately, but it seemed to me that there were lots of folks in the Jeruzalem Post , for example, denying that Palistinians even exist.
This is just utter BULLSHIT. Please provide ANY proof whatsoever for this stupid statement!!!

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josh
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posted 05 April 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I know Golda Meier said over thirty years ago that there were no such thing as Palestinians. Of course, that does not excuse any Holocaust denial.
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Bubbles
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posted 05 April 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei

Sorry did not mean to upset you. I have no intention to go back to The Jeruzalem Post, about two years ago I followed for about six months some of the discussions that went on there about the Arabs (Usually referred to as Ragheads or Towelheads by the JP types). And that convinced me that the majority of Israelies are in denial on what is being perpetrated. And I have no desire to go there again it is a waste of my time. I gladly discuss this issue if there is genuine interrest. But crying 'BULLSHIT'is a negative for me.


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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 12:29 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry did not mean to upset you. I have no intention to go back to The Jeruzalem Post, about two years ago I followed for about six months some of the discussions that went on there about the Arabs (Usually referred to as Ragheads or Towelheads by the JP types). And that convinced me that the majority of Israelies are in denial on what is being perpetrated. And I have no desire to go there again it is a waste of my time. I gladly discuss this issue if there is genuine interrest. But crying 'BULLSHIT'is a negative for me.



Bubbles, if it's BS then it's BS. I find it very hard to believe that anyone at the Jerusalem Post would refer to Palestinians as you claim, never mind the fact that you ascribe to an entire population of people what you THINK you MAY have read in a newspaper without a scintilla of proof . Unless you can back that up I will assume it is a vile lie.


quote:
Well I know Golda Meier said over thirty years ago that there were no such thing as Palestinians. Of course, that does not excuse any Holocaust denial.
THIRTY YEARS AGO, a quote from Golda Mier from THIRTY YEARS AGO!!!! Please Josh don't embarass yourself to try and save Bubbles on this one.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Bubbles
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posted 06 April 2003 01:40 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
http://cgis.jpost.com/cgi-bin/Forums/frboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=73&forum=DCForumID28&omm=0&auto_sense=on


It took me all of one minute to find this hubris. You go ahead and read it, it is not pretty but you asked for it. If you want even juicier stuff I am sure it won't be hard to find.


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satana
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posted 06 April 2003 03:22 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Until Israel accepts all refugees' right to return to their original lands, everyone should reject the Jewish state.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


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Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 04:12 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well Bubbles, today I hate you. Forcing myself to read through that racist garbage truly made me want to spew. Mishei, I can't remember the actual phrasing but if I remember correctly the last line of Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad is something like this:

'There is no more pitiful creature than he who runs from his own deamons.'


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DrConway
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posted 06 April 2003 05:59 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads, given your warning, I clicked on that URL and made sure to place a sheet of paper in front of the monitor so I could peek around it in case I found something objectionable.

Unfortunately I was forced to cover the monitor when I ran across this from the Jerusalem Post forums:

quote:
Remember one thing though, you have to act like human to have rights as a human.

Arabs in general didn't fit the human profile you are talking about, not on the internal national level, since opposition is not allowed, and that to say the least , and not on the international level since you can hear them all every single Friday praying for the destruction of the entire infidel world.

Wake-up and smell the coffee, but make sure it's not a bias, or Arabic coffee.


The poster here indicates a sincere belief that Arabs are subhuman.

Declaring a group as subhuman is most dangerous. Did the Soviets not once declare "class enemies" as subhuman, to be "liquidated"?

Moredreads, may I suggest in future that you adopt my strategy of covering the monitor and peeking around the cover? I find it an excellent method of preserving one's eyes from dreck and tripe.

quote:
THIRTY YEARS AGO, a quote from Golda Mier from THIRTY YEARS AGO!!!! Please Josh don't embarass yourself to try and save Bubbles on this one.

Mishei, for a prominently pro-Israeli person such as yourself your attempt to diminish the importance of quotes from one of Israel's more noted Prime Ministers can only smack of embarassment.

Why are you not proud that Golda Meir decided to say what she really thought?

After all, you didn't have any beef with hearing that David Ben-Gurion laid out the facts as he saw them in 1948 when he pointed out the salient fact that the Israeli Jews did in fact boot a bunch of people right off their land.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 10:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The JPost forum is a forum where people get to post whatever they want. It seems to attract people from all the edges. The discussion here on Palestinians is racist crap, I agree, but to suggest it is part of the published newspaper is wrong.

I have seen posts here that are racist. Indeed go to any forum site where there is an open dialogue and sadly you will see much of the same. I do not condone it and I have every intention of bringing it to the attention of the Post.

As to the Meir comment of 30 years ago, well clearly things change. Poll after poll in Israel EVEN today after the violence , the majority of Israelis still support a Palestinian state. Are there racists in Israel? Of course there are but as in any democratic country they are a pimple on the ass of society.

Thankfully you will rarely see Israelis marching in the street demanding the murder of Palestinians, nor will you see racist literature in Israeli schools or in the public domain.


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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thankfully you will rarely see Israelis marching in the street demanding the murder of Palestinians,

No, because they can get it by voting for Sharon. Who needs to march?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, because they can get it by voting for Sharon. Who needs to march?


This is nothing more than hyperbole. I am trying to point out that every society has its bigots Israel is no different. However when you post junk like this you leave the impression that you believe the majority of Israelis support the murder of Palestinians. It is wrong and hateful to suggest such garbage. Im surprised at you!!

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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So the majority of Israelis don't support Sharon? I'm sorry, my mistake in that case.

In any case, I wasn't even saying that all Israelis support the murder of Palestinians. What I'm saying is, even if there is only a minority of Israelis who do, they hardly need to march about it since they're getting what they want in spades.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And all Im saying is you have to be careful with your words.

BTW, I also believe it is far more complicated than Israelis supporting violence against Palestinians. Michelle, when you or your family become the victim of a terrorist attack positions tragically change. I admit that when Palestinian families become the victim of an Israeli sweep it to produces changed attitudes. To look upon this in your simplistic terms negates the loss in human terms. Its ugly and sad all the way around.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 11:11 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, Mishei, I'll look after my own words. I don't need you to police them for me.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Policing is a pretty strong word Michelle, however when you intimate that my family and friends in Israel believe in the murder of Palestinians, well what is it that you would like me to do accept it and say nothing?

Even the family of my friend who was murdered in a terrorist attack still believe in peace and a two-state solution. When you make such all sweeping statements you do a terrible disservice to those in Israel who struggle through their pain and loss with a hope for peace.


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satana
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posted 06 April 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And yet, you refuse to recognize that the source of everyone's pain and loss is the Jewish state itself.
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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes because such hateful statements are not only untrue but serve to perpetuate hatred.
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satana
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posted 06 April 2003 12:25 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How is it untrue? What hate?
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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 01:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Policing is a pretty strong word Michelle, however when you intimate that my family and friends in Israel believe in the murder of Palestinians, well what is it that you would like me to do accept it and say nothing?

I didn't say that or imply it. I'm saying that those people who DO support the murder of Palestinians only have to vote for Sharon to get what they want. Has nothing to do with your friends and family.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:

This was your original post;

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thankfully you will rarely see Israelis marching in the street demanding the murder of Palestinians,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, because they can get it by voting for Sharon. Who needs to march?


In this the implication could not be clearer. When I pointed this out you then ammended your position by posting this:


quote:
So the majority of Israelis don't support Sharon? I'm sorry, my mistake in that case.
In any case, I wasn't even saying that all Israelis support the murder of Palestinians. What I'm saying is, even if there is only a minority of Israelis who do, they hardly need to march about it since they're getting what they want in spades.


Clearly you sarcastically made the point that the "majority" of Israelis supported Sharon, hence by implication and extention they must also support the murder of Palestinians.

You soften it a bit by then stating "even if there is only a minority of Israelis who do..." which is by no means definitive when using the words "even if", never mind the fact that you have absolutely no proof that those who voted for Sharon somehow sanction murder..none and it is downright inappropriate to make such a suggestion. Hence my polite suggestion about the use of words.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 02:22 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The JPost forum is a forum where people get to post whatever they want. It seems to attract people from all the edges. The discussion here on Palestinians is racist crap, I agree, but to suggest it is part of the published newspaper is wrong.

Does it need to be noted? Well yes I guess it does. This board, Rabble, which is from all appearances based in a relatively small organization, and probably run on a shoestring budget mananges to censor overtly, and even subtly racist comment. On the other hand the JP, with it comparatively huge budget, is exempted from such control on the basis that it is a "forum where people get to post whatever they want."

As the best known Israeli English language newspaper I think that it should consider exactly what face of Israeli culture that it is presnenting to the world. Disgusting.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MD I know of only ONE instance when Babble authorities removed a blatantly anti-Semitic post which was copied directly from a neo-Nazi website. Other than that one time your accusation is groundless.

That said, I agree with you as far as the JP is concerned and have emailed the forum host with my concerns.


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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 02:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Mishei, I'm unreasonable enough to believe that if you support someone like Sharon, then you DO support the murder of innocent Palestinians, because that's what's going on, whether people want to reason it away with "oh we didn't MEAN to" or not.

The reason I amended my post is because I wasn't sure whether a majority of Israelis support Sharon's hardline policies against the Palestinians or not, because I'm not sure how electoral politics work there - if it's a first-past-the-post system then perhaps the majority of Israelis didn't vote for him, I don't know.

What kind of approval rating does Sharon have these days, anyhow?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 02:37 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MD I know of only ONE instance when Babble authorities removed a blatantly anti-Semitic post which was copied directly from a neo-Nazi website. Other than that one time your accusation is groundless.

Not at all Rubble was banned for presenting a case that you felt (and the moderators agreed) was anti-semitic in nature. As well people are cuationed all the time on this matter.


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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well Michelle then go live in Netanya for a few months. Though I woould never wish it on you, place yourself in the shoes of an ordinary Israeli, one who supported Rabin and later Barak because they believed in peace and ended up with suicide/homicide terrorism. Feel the pain of losing your lover, child, friend to a terrorist and you may understand human fraility just a bit better.

Do these Israelis want to MURDER their Palestinain neighbours? NO. They want what Sharon promised them (even if he could never deliever it) respite from terror.

By suggesting that the everyday Israeli voted in Sharon thinking "ah ha now we will have Palestinians murdered" is so wrong to me it only demonstrates that you are unwilling to understand day to day living in Israel.

All this stated, Sharon's tactics are not my tactics and I deplore the ongoing use of the IDF that has resulted in unwarranted violence against innocent Palestinians. But for many it is like being caught between a rock and a hard place. When will the terrorism stop? When will peace come? Yes, the disputed territories must be evacuated through a negotiated settlement but the violence must also end. Its a terrible merry-go-round that we have to find the brakes for.


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Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 02:55 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yada yada. Throw up your hands, close your eyes, whistle loudly, then when all is over and done with talk democracy and humanitarianism, and cry shame, shame about the thuggery done on the behalf of all Israel's by the head of Prime Minister they elected.

Pathetic.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 April 2003 02:57 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can it be any wonder that there are those who not only mistrust Al Jazeera but wonder why it should ever get a Canadian license.

Are you saying that you oppose allowing Al Jazeera a broadcast licence in Canada?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll amend that: ..."thuggery done in the name of of all Israels by the head of Prime Minister they elected.
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DrConway
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posted 06 April 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The reason I amended my post is because I wasn't sure whether a majority of Israelis support Sharon's hardline policies against the Palestinians or not, because I'm not sure how electoral politics work there - if it's a first-past-the-post system then perhaps the majority of Israelis didn't vote for him, I don't know.

Proportional representation. Even so, I believe Likud itself does not enjoy a majority in the Knesset.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 06 April 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure very few people in Israel actually want to kill Palestinians. Its just that many them see at as neccesary for the survival of Israel that is disgusting. "Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it."
quote:
Mishei: When will the terrorism stop? When will peace come?
When Israelis accept all Palestinians as equals. When Israel ceases to be a "Jewish" state and become a state of all its people. This is what supporters of Rabin and Barak refuse to accept. They choose to go on killing and killing than give up their Jewish majority.

End the racism, Mishei. The brakes are right under your feet, you just don't want to look.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel will always be the Jewish state satans something you should begin to accept.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 04:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you saying that you oppose allowing Al Jazeera a broadcast licence in Canada?


Any station that supports anti-Semitism such as Holocaust denial according to CRTC regs, would not be permitted a licence. So my answer is an unqualified yes.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 06 April 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei: Israel will always be the Jewish state satans something you should begin to accept.
This is how you acheive "peace"?

What happened to justice?
I can never accept your racist state, Mishei. Even with a gun pointed at my face.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
satana, it is people like you who will continue to perpetuate the hate and intolerance. BTW, I take it you equally can never accept the Islamic state of Iran or the Church of England state of Great Britain either huh?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 06 April 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it is people like you who will continue to perpetuate the hate and intolerance...
So, I don't tolerate racism. Do you hate me for that?

I can never accept racist states that justify ethnic cleansing anywhere by any name.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
satana, it is people like you who will continue to perpetuate the hate and intolerance.

Well lets look for some evidence of this charge. What hate and intolerance is Satan essaying:

quote:
I'm sure very few people in Israel actually want to kill Palestinians.

The idea that Israelis do not support killing for the sake of killing. What do you find intolerant about this?

quote:
When Israelis accept all Palestinians as equals.

Is the idea that Palestinians should be equal to Jews in Israel purveying race hatred?

quote:
...become a state of all its people.

Wherein the idea that Israel should become state of all it people do you find the seeds of perpetuating 'intolerance and hate'?

quote:
End the racism, Mishei.

Asking you to play your part in ending racism, is racist?

You mean to say you disagree wtih the above. Why is it that espousing the belief that Israel should be a non-racist state, where all of its people are treated as equals without regard to race or religion so repelant to you?

What are you saying?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 April 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Any station that supports anti-Semitism such as Holocaust denial according to CRTC regs, would not be permitted a licence. So my answer is an unqualified yes.

In plain language, then, you say that Al Jazeera should be denied a broadcast licence?

Saying that "any station that supports anti-Semitism" should be barred is another issue. You can't say that Al Jazeera has done this, regardless of whose viewpoints they air. By your logic, ABC and CNN (you could even throw in the CBC, come to think of it) should be banned because of the anti Arab/Muslim views of some of the people who have been on those stations.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure Al CNN and NBC engage in racism like Al Jazeera has ongoing programs denying the Holocaust
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 April 2003 08:15 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Although the network reaches an estimated 35 million viewers in the Arab world, its Western style of reporting has angered many governments in the region. The network is also the first in the Arab world to actively seek out Israeli perspectives on Middle East issues.

As a result, the network has been called "diabolical" for serving "Zionist interests." Its bureaus have been banned from Bahrain, Jordan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, which recently accused it of "serving up poison on a golden platter" and banned it from covering the pilgrimage to the haj in February.


This is from the article you posted, Mishei.

I guess it's hard to satisfy the prejudices of extremists of all sorts.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Barry Stagg
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posted 06 April 2003 08:17 PM      Profile for Barry Stagg   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the anti-Israeli comments of many, do any posters embrace the Al-Jazeera host's position: That Israel should not exist.
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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 08:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't support that.

I would like to see Israel exist, but as a pluralistic society where both Arabs and Jews have equal status, and where both have the right of return. Obviously that's simplistic and there would be a zillion things to work out in the details, but I think that's really the only fair solution. Two states - well, I just don't like the idea of states divided on racial or religious lines.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 10:26 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Given the anti-Israeli comments of many...

Many what? Subject is unclear.

Israel exists, why should I wish it to cease? Very simply put, I support the position of many Arab MK's: The Israeli flag can stay, a constituion should be framed that guarantees equal rights to all subjects including those Arabs in Israel and those who live in the WB and Gaza strip and are defacto ruled by Israel.

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 April 2003 12:01 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been reading back on the opening posts on this thread and found no evidence that Al Jazeera is antisemitic. I've seen a couple of accusations, both concerning an unidentified "host" from that station, but nothing tangible.

At this point, all accusations are heresay.

I wonder why anyone would want to prevent an Arab viewpoint from being heard on Canadian television. I suspect that the "antisemitic" charge is a smokescreen for another agenda.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 07 April 2003 12:04 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As always. Anything to distract from the Whote Mans Burder thread and article.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 07 April 2003 12:06 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I've seen a couple of accusations, both concerning an unidentified "host" from that station, but nothing tangible.

Of course. You can't expect anything else from our friend Mr. Stagg. He's simply a troll, in the classic mode. He doe snot display any interest in straightforward discussion, only in provocation.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 07 April 2003 12:52 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei

"Any station that supports anti-Semitism such as Holocaust denial according to CRTC regs, would not be permitted a licence. So my answer is an unqualified yes." (Mishei)


Is that true? Would that mean if one was of the opinion that the existance of a god was just a 'wild leap of faith into irrationality'. that one would not be able to get licence from the CRTC? Since one could say that it is anti-semetic and even anti-christian.

I am curious what the rational would be for such rule.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 07:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bubbles why am I not surprised that you would find a way to show support for Holocaust denial on Al Jazeera?

quote:
At this point, all accusations are heresay.


All you need do is go to the CBC site and watch the "Disclosure" piece online. No hearsay but actual footage of Holocaust denial programming on Al Jazeera.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 07 April 2003 09:21 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bubbles, may not be as informed as you. Bubbles asked for you to back up your case with facts as opposed to just asserting it. Are you going to?
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Michelle
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posted 07 April 2003 09:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He just did, didn't he? He gave his source for this claim - the Disclosure piece on the NW site.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 07 April 2003 09:33 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was hoping for a link.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 07 April 2003 09:39 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I looked but the format is unreadable by my computer. How about other sources. There must be some if this viewpoint is so persitent on Al Jazeera that it amounts to the editorial stand of the institution. Also, even if these views are presented are they accompanied by counter comment, etc.

I purused the 20 odd links provided on that site, and none of the titles even alluded to the viewpoints that Mishei is claiming are prevalent.

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the CBC link I used to watch the piece on Al Jazeera;

[URL=http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/media/030401_aljazeera.ram ]CBC Disclosure[/URL]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 April 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry, we can't find the page you requested.

1. Please check the URL in the address bar, or ...
2. Use the navigation links at left to explore our site, or ...
3. Enter a term in the Quick Search box at top, or ...
4. Click here to go to our site map page

In a few moments, you will be taken to our site map page, which will help you in finding what you look for.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 12:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since the thread on new anti-Semitism is closed I would not want Al Qu'Bong to think I didnt forget his insinuation hence I copy my challenge to him.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
don't think it's reasonable for someone who is so adept at straddling the racist line to presume to suggest banning a television station (al Jazeera of course) because of the ethnicity of its originators.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that out and out lying is becoming de rigeur here on Babble,
Al I challenge you to show me one post where I make any suggestion that Al Jazeera should be banned because of the ethnicity of its originators. If you can find such a post I will apologize publicly. If not I expect you to apologize to this board for misrepresentation (ya sure!!)

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]



From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 April 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is true. Mishei did not say that. What he did say was that Al Jazeera shouldn't be licensed to operate in Canada due to instances of anti-semitism.

I would then assume he would not support the Jerusalem Post being sold in Canada either due to their tolerating racist contents, as posted by Bubbles, on their web site.

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the Jerusalem Post violates any of Canada's hate laws with its published material in Canada I would not support it's sale.
BTW, there is a big difference between a website forum and what is actually published in print.

If Al Jazeera ran a website and some posters posted racist crap it would not necessarily run afowl of Canadian law. If however, it broacasted racist crap knowingly then it would be in violation of CRTC regs.

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 07 April 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei

"Bubbles why am I not surprised that you would find a way to show support for Holocaust denial on Al Jazeera?" (Mishei)


I am not aware of having shown the support that you state. My issue is a bit more fundamental, basic, if you like. There are people that believe in a flat earth, others that believe that the end of the world is near, others that deny the existance of gosts, etc, etc. Is it not a bit presumptious to asume that I would hate people that promote the existance of a flat earth, because I believe it to be round? To me people that hold extreme (for us) views have a usefull function, you could compare it to lightning rods. They release and show where there is tension. Or as you stated yourself, they are like edge markers. As such I have a tendensy to accept them, not necessarily agree with them.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The above are arguments I have heard and read from the worst of Holocaust deniers including, Ernst Zundel, David Irving, Bradley Smith, Robert Furisson etc. Bubbles welcome to the Holocaust deniers club.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 April 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I bet they all support motherhood and apple pie too. I'm in support of motherhood too. I have a mother, and I support the fact that she's my mother. I support apple pie on ***INTERNATIONAL PI DAY***! I bet you might have heard these arguments somewhere made by a baby seal-clubber somewhere. Does that make me a fan of baby seal-clubbers? Do I get to join the seal-clubber denier club? What bubbles posted read to me like Free Speech Absolutism, something I have some sympathy with. Are all of us Holocaust deniers because we support free speech? If so, that is truly desperate.

WARNING: You have entered the logical fallacy zone. Fallacies of relevance ahead!

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 April 2003 06:06 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From that closed thread:
quote:
And you wonder why those of us who support Israel here have suggested that certain postersare so filled with animus that they will go to any lengths to disparage Jews.

I don't think you were being criticised because you're Jewish, but rather because you act like a blockhead.

Sorry, but I inferred from past posts of yours, (such as one thread you started in which you tried to demonstrate that Muslims thought that Israel was behind the airliner/carpet knife attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, and other instances in which you dismissed views printed in the Arab press...because they were found in the Arab press) that you are trying to demonstrate that viewpoints in Muslim and Arab media have no credibility.

My response to your attack on Al Jazeera is because I see a pattern here.

Now go ahead and call me a liar again, or reach for that other arrow in your rhetorical quiver and call me an antisemite.

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 06:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see reach back into past posts, quote entire threads out of context to make me look foollish and then challenge me to call you a liar. OK you are a liar
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 April 2003 06:41 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He flipped a coin! He flipped a coin! I wonder whether "liar" was heads or tails.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 April 2003 07:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bubbles welcome to the Holocaust deniers club.

I agree, mishie, there is a certain amount animus towards you here. And I think is entirely self-satisfactory and delusional to argue it is because "everyone" is against you and are anti-semites and holocaust deniers. But it is also too easy for you.

Consider the above accusation. It is mean spirited and without merit. At least in the context of the current discussion which, admittedly, must seem lonely at times. In fact, I can certain.y admire your tenacity and do often agree with the basic premise, if not the meanderings, of your argumnets.

Where I have such difficulty reminaing silent, is with the above attack. I have seen you, here, get so upset with what you call personal attacks against you and name calling directed at you. You have called in the moderator. You have played the victim as fat as you could with all the hurt and moral pain you could muster.

And, yet, you hurl the most venomous insults of "holocaust denier" and "anti-semite" like snow balls in a play ground.

And then you tsk, tsk and hiss shame at others and utter the word despicable.

Maybe you would be less lonley if you weren't such a hypocrite.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 07 April 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, you will have a valid point, about Mishei, IF you could find just one instance of a Muslim organization -- be it newspaper, radio station, TV station, Internet website -- which endorses the existence of the Jewish State.
From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 April 2003 07:43 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see how that is connected to anything Wingy himself said. So what if no such example exists? It is still a valid viewpoint to hold (that Israel as a state does not exist legitimately), and if it is universal it is all the more important that expression of it be heard. Because we have had the other option and it is actually worse, the sub rosa whisper of the heartfelt.

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 07 April 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(that Israel as a state does not exist legitimately)

Why don't you just f*ck off, Mandos ... you are a disgrace.

From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 April 2003 07:50 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why should I? This whole debate is framed in terms of the idea that Mishei gets to license what ordinary people in the Muslim world think. That he is so arrogant is exactly the problem.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 07 April 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos, you have just demonstrated how "ordinary people in the Muslim world" think: "Israel as a state does not exist legitimately."
From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 April 2003 08:03 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The primary source of Holocaust denial or minimization in the Muslim world is not that any Muslim has anything personal invested in the matter of the Holocaust like folks like Zundel do. Quite the opposite; it's part of a history (WWII) that isn't considered a particularly important or relevant episode in that part of world. In that part of the world, denying the Holocaust would ordinarily be like claiming a UFO sighting. Rather shrug-worthy. This may be offensive to Westerners, for whom WWII and the Holocaust are a major source of anguish and guilt and emotionally charged even for deniers, but all those events are not really a part of the historical memory of those people. Why should they be?

The only place where any emotional investment is made is where it touches the matter of Israel. It is axiomatic to most people there that the foundation of Israel was wrong. It's impossible to conceive that there is any merit to it, and any claim that appears to justify it must be false, simply by deduction. Thus, if the Holocaust is used as an argument to justify Israel, it follows that the Holocaust must be ... This has no connection to the actual reality of the thing; Holocaust denial is almost entirely a rhetorical tactic, devoid of any meaning beyond the context of the Israel debate. Even the most detailed arguments are basically within the Israel context.

Having been raised in the West and having been confronted with the matter of Israel's justification first-hand, I--as a Muslim--believe it is possible to make the same arguments without denying the Holocaust at all. I even believe it is possible to be sympathetic to Israel's founders even while rejecting what they did. But this is all lost there, because, as I said, it is not in the historical memory.

Previously, this was not known to the West, and I think it is terribly unhealthy that the Muslim world is forced to see the world through Western eyes without any reciprocation. This actually creates a breeding ground, a swamp for the growth resentful Holocaust denial. I have hope that there may be some way to change this--but only when Westerners can look through Muslim eyes as well.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 April 2003 08:05 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but the point is...this whole debate is framed under Mishei's thought-license. They should not think that. I ask, "Why should they not think that? What do they owe to Israel and to Mishei?" Nothing that they recognize.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 08:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut, you seem to understand a bit about anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. So let us dissect what Bubbles posted:

quote:
I am not aware of having shown the support that you state. My issue is a bit more fundamental, basic, if you like. There are people that believe in a flat earth, others that believe that the end of the world is near, others that deny the existance of gosts, etc, etc. Is it not a bit presumptious to asume that I would hate people that promote the existance of a flat earth, because I believe it to be round? To me people that hold extreme (for us) views have a usefull function, you could compare it to lightning rods. They release and show where there is tension. Or as you stated yourself, they are like edge markers. As such I have a tendensy to accept them, not necessarily agree with them.

OK so what is he doing? He is comparing flat earth theorists to Holocaust deniers, just a bunch of silly ol' people who believe the earth is flat...just a bunch of silly ol' people who believe that Jews lied to the world by claiming that 6 million of them were murdered.Now says Bubbles they have every right to spew anti-Semitism like this and like flat-earth theorists "I don't have to believe them" but why should I dislike them?

This is exactly the argument that folks like Paul Fromm make ALL THE TIME. Indeed, like Fromm Bubbles wants to find ways to protect Holocaust deniers. Now why are you trying to find ways to defend him?

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 April 2003 12:55 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What are you afraid of?

Holocaust deniers, like flat-earth proponents, are recognized by most sane observers as part of a looney fringe.

The problem is, that if you start denying the right of free speech to people whose ideas are easily refutable, what's to stop anyone from advocating the denial of free speech to those with ideas that are somewhat contentious?

The denial of the right of free speech is in no way democratic.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 April 2003 01:05 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CN, surely you can come up with a better counterargument than telling Mandos to fuck off.

(says Michelle after losing it in the News forum and telling Hankerin' Tom to piss off. )

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 08 April 2003 01:55 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I am not aware of ever having engaged in Holocaust denial.

Please to be careful with your tar brush.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 April 2003 02:12 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
CN, surely you can come up with a better counterargument than telling Mandos to fuck off.

Nah. I don't think he can.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 08 April 2003 06:16 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And yet, not a single piece of evidence has yet been presented to prove the anti-semitic nature of Al Jazeera. I am unable to access this CBC link, and no other piece of corroborating evidence has been established.

Thank you Mandos for you clear descirption of Arab understanding of the Holocaust and its relatioinship to Israel. Very interesting.

Where is the Turkey?

Also, why is an oppoistion to to a Jewsish State antisemitic, especially when such a state comes at the expense of indiginous people? I oppose all states based on religious principals, Israel included. In addition Israel has also established itself by the expropriation of land from an indiginous population. As such it is doubly accursed.

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 April 2003 09:05 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1. Doc I have never accused you of engaging in or supporting Holocaust denial. I have accused Al Qa'Bong of giving suport and succor to deniers. And Al, in Canada, we happen to have laws against those who would promote hatred whether you like it or not. Quite frankly, I remain in awe of the silence here. Where are those voices that should be telling Al that Holocaust denial is hatred. Your silence is deafening.

2. MD about three million people saw the CBC Disclosure piece on Al Jazeera'a Holocaust denial promotion. That you didnt see it does not mean the evidence is not there. If you were truly interested in accessing it, contact CBC and ask how you can view it. I am not your personal researcher. I told you about it, newspapers reported it now go find it but to deny it exists....

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 08 April 2003 09:41 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No one is supporting hatred here, Mishei. I simply don't see it. I simply don't see Al-Qa'bong saying that Holocaust denial isn't hatred or that Zundel isn't a hatemongerer, etc, etc. I don't know how you're seeing it. As far as I can tell, most of Babble (including myself) are Free Speech Absolutists. I know you have a problem with that, but that has little to do with condemning hatred. So I don't see what we have to tell Al-Qa'bong or Bubbles that they don't already accept.

All they have said so far is that they are marginal positions, and that people should be free to express marginal positions, no matter how hateful they are. This puts them right up there with such evil people as the EFF and the ACLU!

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 08 April 2003 09:52 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MD: Turkey is in a kind of weird, ambivalent position. On the one hand, its Kemalist state ideology is based on the circumstances of its creation, which basically involves separating itself from the concerns of the rest of the Muslim world. Consequently, the Turkish state apparatus finds itself in a much easier position to support Israel, especially since there is much in common behind the nationalist aspects of the Kemalist and Zionist ideologies. The issue of Kurdistan, for instance, has some analogues to the issue of Palestine, with the Turkish state denying for a really long time that the Kurds even existed as a people.

The Turkish state finds it easier to do so because the post-WWI trauma made the Turkish population receptive to Kemalism as well, which means that they are much more willing to view Israel as an Arab Problem and not something they should concern themselves with. Israel's rushing to the aid of Turkey during the Istanbul earthquake crisis improved its image as well. However, the Turkish population is far more ambivalent about Israel, on the whole, then the Turkish state. I have not heard how the Turks view the matter of the Holocaust; I suspect they simply do not think about it. They were not involved for most of WWII, but they do have a history of ties with Germany, including, in the past century, culturally and militarily.

However, Kemalism has severe problems, including the aspects of Turkish nationalism that find strong cognates in Zionism. I think it has so far proven to be a bit of a straightjacket and a dead end, and eventually some accomodation will have to be made with its Islamic heritage as well, even (especially!) if it is to join the EU.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 08 April 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CN and others swear at me because they lack, so far, a response to what I have to say. I have posed the same conundrum repeatedly in many different ways in the past, but they have been so far unable to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. Until they do, well ...
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 08 April 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where are those voices that should be telling Al that Holocaust denial is hatred.

Where has he said differently, mishei?
What he said is that holocaust deniers are on the lunatic fringe. Unless he considers himself a lunatic, one must assume then that he does not agree with their views.

Best I can tell, the argument here is that holocaust deniers, no matter how vile they may be, have a right to be wrong. Or lunatics.

I have been very ambivalent on this. On one hand, I would like to agree that holocaust deniers should be silenced by weight of the law. On the other hand, I find it difficult to reconcile this with my firm belief in the freedom of speech. This is further complicated, for me, as I think it is foolish to intellectualize the argument.

But regardless of my own personal ambivalence, or maybe because of it. I can see both view points. And while there may be a gulf of opinion, I don't see why it should result in accusations of being sympathetic to those you would consider to lunatics or simply wrong.

Such an argument followed to its logical conclusion, would hold that the defenders of the US Constitution, where the right of speech (up 'till now anyway) has been sacred, are themselves holocaust deniers and/or anti-semites.

Certainly you see the flaw in that argument.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 08 April 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei

For me the Holocaust used to conjure up images of emaciated poeple in concentration camps, corpses piled up ready to be incinerated, box cars full of desperation looking at the camera, industrial, institutional inhumanity. But increasingly Holocaust is becoming associated with propaganda, politics, money raising efforts, justification for war, incarseration, to name a few. And as far as I am concerned that does far more damage to the word 'Holocaust' , then the holocaust deniers.
I give them little chance to ever find evidence that the Holocaust did not occure, but would it not be great if they did find proof that the Holocaust was just a political propaganda fabrication, it would mean that maybe humanity is not as bad afterall.


You probably will now find some other reason to call me a Holocaust denier, but that is your problem not mine. Over and out.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 08 April 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bad Bubbles! Repeating Norman Finkelstein and all that! Bad Bubbles!
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 08 April 2003 11:33 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I give them little chance to ever find evidence that the Holocaust did not occure, but would it not be great if they did find proof that the Holocaust was just a political propaganda fabrication, it would mean that maybe humanity is not as bad afterall.

OK Wing do you need any more proof that this nut is a Holocaust denial supporter

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 08 April 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not ready to close the door just yet. I can't see how someone can acknowledge and deny the holocaust all that the same time. The statement, however, does demonstrate a certain lack of judgement and rather poor taste.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 08 April 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mandos

I will have to check out this Finkelstein character. But if you could, explain to me why what I stated is so bad, I would apreciate it.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 08 April 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am not ready to close the door just yet.
Of course you are not after all he has yet to come out and say definitively that the Jews concocted the Holocaust. He only claims that it would be "great if they did find proof that the Holocaust was just a political propaganda fabrication," Take your time Wing after all this is just "poor tatse" on his part take your time

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 08 April 2003 01:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm ready to close the door. It's almost a hundred posts, and we're just going around in circles now.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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