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Author Topic: White man's burden
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 05 April 2003 01:26 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
White man's burden

quote:
The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history. Two of them, journalists William Kristol and Charles Krauthammer, say it's possible. But another journalist, Thomas Friedman (not part of the group), is skeptical

[ 05 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 05 April 2003 01:35 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish

Are you trying to implicate some sort of Jewish conspiracy?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 April 2003 02:49 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, ya lousy demonizer you! You obviously have an agenda, quoting Ha'aretz, a noted antisemitic rag!
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 05 April 2003 02:58 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have noticed a tendency from the extreme looney right to not read provided sources. Perhaps there is a connection bewteen that, their point of view [ ] and the lack of verifiable source material within their alternately sentimental and then belicose rantings.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 05 April 2003 03:11 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More from the same anti-semitic journal

quote:
A very similar letter is currently being circulated in the Senate. It outlines the same requirements to be made of the Palestinians and warns that "adding other parties, who do not have the confidence of one or more of the principles, will be counter-productive." Thousands of AIPAC activists who just attended the organization's annual conference in Washington took the opportunity to converge upon Capitol Hill and urge the Senators and Congressmen to sign the two letters. If enough signatures are obtained, these letters could turn into death certificates for the road map.

... and now that the war appears all but won, the death of the road map for an indepedent Palestine. The Arabs take it the ass one more time.

[ 05 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 April 2003 09:40 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe the war should be renamed "Operation Israeli Security."
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
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posted 05 April 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alright, obviously I shouldve explored the entire website instead of just reading the story relevant to the topic being discussed.

Its just that when someone makes a point of highlighting the ethnicity of the "bad guys" it raises a big red flag for me.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 April 2003 07:01 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well this is one of the problem with creating states around religious or ethnic lines. It becomes confusing for people because criticism of the state can be confused with criticism of the ethnicity or religion that define the state.

Also, less savory politicians within that state can play upon this to prevent discussion of the workings of that state by accusing people of racism when they are actually critiquing state policy, not the people. It is a way of closing down discussion by intimidating people. This can and does happen frequently with discussions about Israel.

I support secular political structures and in our increasingly polyethnic cultures, I believe single relgion states are antithetical to the humanitarian goals that I support. Israel's continuing struggles with the Palestinians it a depressing example of the inherent problems.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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Babbler # 3787

posted 05 April 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads

Interresting article you dug up. Here is a comment on Kristol's view. Curious what you have to say on that.

…..”But at a deeper level it is a greater war, for the shaping of a new Middle East. It is a war that is intended to change the political culture of the entire region”….. (Kristol)

So maybe Bin Laden was not so wrong afterall in his assesment of the USA with respect to the Middle East.


……”That doctrine maintains that the problem with the Middle East is the absence of democracy and of freedom. It follows that the only way to block people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden is to disseminate democracy and freedom.”…..(Kristol)


I am not sure how he comes to that conclusion. It seems to me that democracies are able to produce weapons of mass destruction just as or even more efficiently as autocratic regimes. USA, Brittain, France, India, Israel are democracies that developed those weapons. And Russia, Pakistan, China and maybe Korea are or were Autoritarian regimes when they got WMD’s. And we have all seen democracies that became dictatorships and vise versa. And terrorism is not limited to dictatorships. The most persistent terrorism these days occurs in ‘democratic’ Israel.. Even the use of WMD’s has happen in democratic countries.

……”It is obliged to be far more aggressive in promoting democracy. Hence this war.”…..(Kristol)


That to me seems a contradiction. Wars are inherently undemocratic. I admit that it is possibly that a democracy will grow out of it, but consider it highly unlikely in this case. It worked with Germany and Japan, but one has to remember that they started the war and failed, it is that failure that motivated change. But the Iraqies are invaded and I suspect that just a type like Bin Laden or an Ajatola strong man, or a 'Joanne of Arc' would appeal to them to throw off this oppressor.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 12:36 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I must admit I find it rather ironic that when I have used Ha'aretz to back up some of my points many of you here contend that it is not an independent source because it is Israeli. I suppose its all in the selection huh? Must remember this one for another time.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
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posted 06 April 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps Mishei my memory dims with the passing of time, but I could swear that Ha'aretz has been used as well, as a source by those taking a view strongly contrary to your own. I guess it all is in selection. So often your debates come down to the careful selection of a fine point.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am not sure how he comes to that conclusion. It seems to me that democracies are able to produce weapons of mass destruction just as or even more efficiently as autocratic regimes. USA, Brittain, France, India, Israel are democracies that developed those weapons. And Russia, Pakistan, China and maybe Korea are or were Autoritarian regimes when they got WMD’s. And we have all seen democracies that became dictatorships and vise versa. And terrorism is not limited to dictatorships. The most persistent terrorism these days occurs in ‘democratic’ Israel.. Even the use of WMD’s has happen in democratic countries.

Why the association with WMD and bin Laden, so far he has shown no capacity. Iraq, yes, has the infrastructure for creating them, yet its program was to slow, hence the present invasion. If they had them then you can bet the situation would be different. My opinion is that WMD is a dilomatic Trojan Horse meant to justify the political evisceration of Iraq.

In a realpolitik sense, and if you were to apply the same kind of long term strategic thinking but applied from the side Iraq as opposed to the side of the US (as it is most often discussed) I think you come to some interesting insights.

1) The invasion of Kuwait, although unsuccesful was, in hindsight, quite sensible, given that Kuwait is now the base of operations that the US is using to destroy Iraqi power (and by extension Arab power.) It was clerly within the long term 'strategic interest' of Iraq to do so.

2) The search for Nuclear Weapons was a natural course of action for a country under threat from US geopoilitical designs.

On the issue of democracy. I think that the whole concept of democracy has to be rethought. The way it is applied in the west is interesting in that in the US and many countries it is highly influenced (through campaign donations) by the weathly, and therefore overly suceptible to their agenda. Simple marxism I know, but here is the rub: single party states such as Iraq are not so suceptible. They, through the domination of one party, reflect the agenda of that party and are not so easily influenced. This means that they may decide to do things for their own benefit, against the wishes of multinational corporations etc.

The US may need in Iraq to establish some kind of dictarorship that it can control at the behest of the economic interests that they are beholden to, those interests may just as well be satisified with installing a 'democratic' system that they can also manipulate through the same kinds of preasure that they excert within the western countries.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pathe Eton Hogg
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posted 06 April 2003 07:28 PM      Profile for Pathe Eton Hogg     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You forgot the wisdom of hiding behind women and children that the Iraqi's are becoming known for.
I can sure see the value in dressing up in civilian clothes and filling a truck or two with explosives in those heavily populated areas.

That way the regime takes the credit for it and Franks can say they had nothing to do with it. Why that would work in Gaza, North Korea and Iran too.

I can see how this "spin" stuff works to an end.


From: Iraqistan suburbs | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 06 April 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You forgot the wisdom of hiding behind women and children that the Iraqi's are becoming known for.

I don't think the civilian issue is really hampering operations for the boys. They seem to know how to handle it:

"sorry, but the chick was in the way"

Sorry that is just the kind of thing that happens when you go to someones country and invade their cities. The places where the women and children are.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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