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Author Topic: New Antisemitism one more time
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 01 April 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Attached is an article not from a Jewish publication and not from a Jewish writer. I post this piece not to point any accusing finger at babblers...I repeat I POST THIS PIECE NOT TO POINT ANY ACCUSING FINGER AT BABBLERS but more to have an honest discussion of some of her concepts.

The Spectator


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 April 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh. mishei, I thought maybe some reasoned discussion. Instead we get the typical diatribe of neo-cons without an original thought.
quote:
But there was equally no doubt, from what he and others said, that anti-Zionism is now being used to cloak a terrifying nexus between genocidal Arab and Islamist hatred of the Jews and deep-seated European prejudices.


That quote demonstrates the true racism of the writer and anyone who agrees with her and says nothing about the left.

Yes, Arab and Islamic hatred of Jews. The basis of any racism is to portray a people, however diverse, as all having a single, negative and evil quality. So all Arabs and Ilamic peoples hate Jews.

And you would feed us such racist hate, mishei, in teh interests of open discussion. I bet you wouldn't be so opened minded if the article argued all Jews hate Arabs and Islam.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing with respect, this article appeared in a respected mainstream British newspaper not known for its sympathy to Israel or Jewish causes.

Secondly nowhere do I read that she claims all Arabs hate Jews. Indeed her words you quoted "genocidal Arab and Islamist... " speaks to an extreme as opposed to a mainstream.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 01 April 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, precisely what is it in this article that you want us to discuss?

I mean, how many times should I write on babble: I hate unsupported overgeneralizations -- ?

I hate unsupported overgeneralizations. I hate unsupported overgeneralizations. etc.

The Spectator is a well-known right-wing publication, as is the Daily Mail, for which this person normally writes. Most of this is pure rhetoric -- your sort of thing, I recognize, Mishei, but mine only as an object of study.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 01 April 2003 12:49 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These sick outpourings are not so much religious or even fundamentalist doctrines as rooted in a fanatical totalitarian ideology. As Professor Bauer observed, the driving aim is the Islamic dictatorship of the world. Realisation of this utopia necessitates the destruction of the foundation creeds of Western culture, Judaism and Christianity — and especially Israel, the supposed personification of Western global power-lust, which was planted as an incubus on Arab soil as a result of the Holocaust.

Substitute "Jewish" for "Islamic", "Islam" for "Judaism" and you might as well be reading
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This article is racist trash, in no way different from the anti-semitic crap that you rightly complained about a month or so ago, Mishei. Or if it is different, how?

You need to explain why this is not every bit as offensive as the statement "The driving aim behind Zionism is Jewish dictatorship of the world." .

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 April 2003 12:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some racism is better than others?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 01 April 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In view of all you have posted and all the complaints you have made about the anti-semitic left Mishei, tell us, please, how you are any different than those who post anti-semitic rants.
How can you say that you are not every bit as racist as they are?

From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 01 April 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I must say, it's refreshing that this cloud of absurdity that is the accusation of 'anti-semetism' at every turn has finally been lifted through rational discussion.

It's brought me back to posting here.


From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 April 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Secondly nowhere do I read that she claims all Arabs hate Jews. Indeed her words you quoted "genocidal Arab and Islamist... " speaks to an extreme as opposed to a mainstream.

Quite the contrary. She made no effort to qualify her statement. "Genocidal" is not a qualification. It is an indictment.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 01 April 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, you seem to have a problem reading the word "Islamist." It does not mean Islamic. And Sisyphus has conveniently clipped off the first sentence of this quotation:
quote:
These sick outpourings are not so much religious or even fundamentalist doctrines as rooted in a fanatical totalitarian ideology. As Professor Bauer observed, the driving aim is the Islamic dictatorship of the world. Realisation of this utopia necessitates the destruction of the foundation creeds of Western culture, Judaism and Christianity — and especially Israel, the supposed personification of Western global power-lust, which was planted as an incubus on Arab soil as a result of the Holocaust.

Bauer is not denouncing Islam or Arabs. He is clearly targeting what he calls a "fanatical totalitarian ideology" shared by Islamists.

It would be refreshing if the problem of anti-Semitism could at least once be acknowledged on this board. The case of France is a good example:

France is now in an uproar over anti-Semitic attacks taking place at recent peace rallies -- young left-wing Jews were beaten by pro-Palestinian activists. More recently, France's human rights group, the Commission Nationale Consultative des Droits de l’Homme, released a report with some appalling statistics:


quote:
Ce bilan 2002 ainsi étudié est caractérisé par de tristes records d’augmentation des manifestations racistes, sous toutes leurs formes, à des niveaux jamais atteints depuis 10 ans. Deux chiffres pour illustrer ce constat : 313 violences contre les personnes et les biens, soit plus du double du chiffre de 2000 et 992, menaces soit près de trois fois plus qu’en 2001.

. . .

Une attention particulière est portée au phénomène de l’antisémitisme. En 2002 les violences antisémites deviennent majoritaires avec 193 faits, soit six fois plus qu’en 2001. De plus, 731 menaces antisémites ont été portées à la connaissance du ministère de l’Intérieur.

...

Plus du tiers des sondés (39%) jugent personnellement "pas vraiment" ou "pas du tout" nécessaire une lutte vigoureuse contre le racisme.

Pour ce qui est de l’antisémitisme, les juifs sont désignés comme victimes principales par seulement 5% des sondés.


So, to sum up, in France overt anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic violence is occurring at "peace" demonstrations. In the last year, anti-Semitic attacks have increased six-fold in France. Two-thirds of all racist violence in France is committed against Jews, while three-quarters of other racist attacks are committed against Jews. It seems to me that this is worthy of consideration and discussion.

But perhaps the reason why this discussion never seems to get off the ground lies in the final statistic. Despite the fact that Jews are overwhelmingly the victims of racist attacks in France, only 5% believe this to be the case. Quelle surprise.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 03:30 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you wazzup for your ability to read and not mis-post. You have answered quite well on this one.

quote:
The Spectator is a well-known right-wing publication, as is the Daily Mail, for which this person normally writes. Most of this is pure rhetoric -- your sort of thing, I recognize, Mishei, but mine only as an object of study.


Then study it you should. It must be awfully limiting to read only what you agree with. Right, Left or Center reading is the food for thought. Disagree and argue but to blame me for an article I posted that deals with anti-semitism in ways you may not like is bizarre.

As for the accusation that the article is racist, well Britain has some very strong anti-racist laws which it has used even agaist journalists. If you believe the piece is racist (and Wazzup I believe quashed that notion) lay a complaint.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 01 April 2003 03:31 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, I will include that sentence in the quote I cited, as it is not my intention to misrepresent the intentions of the author of the article.

That being said, I don't see how it mitigates the global anti-Arab tone of the piece (We are never told if there are any Arabs who are NOT "Islamists"). I don't think any of us here deny that there is unreasoning, fanatical hatred of Jews and Israel in much (perhaps most) of the Arab world.

I posted several months ago, with respect to my participation in the anti-G8 summit protests here in Ottawa, that I was made very uncomfortable by the violently anti-Jewish tone of pro-Palestinian protesters and I couls easily see that violence would have erupted, had they been confronted by pro-Likud types.

I don't doubt that anti-semitic attacks in France are common as I noticed a very strong streak of anti-Arab, anti-Black and anti-Semitic racism in certain segments of the population when I was there.

I have seen the same sort of racism in Canada, the United States and England as well, I might add.

I don't think too many of us on the Left who've been out of Mommy and Daddy's basement a few times seriously contend, if Israel were to allow creation of a Palestinian State with fair access to water, free movement and no IDF occupation force, that all Arabic anti-semitism would vanish and that Israel could exist without fear. For many reasons, this would not be the case. At least not for several generations.

My view, at least, is that as long as Israel procedes on its current path, there will never be even the hope of peace for Israelis. Not in two generations. Not ever.

Why do some of us hold that Israel should cede the Occupied Territories prior to demanding that Palestinian terrorism stop? Why not the other way around?

I will sidestep the issue of whether Sharon is trustworthy, a man of honour, as well as the issue of whether all members of Palestinian resistance could be trusted.

My answer to these questions represents one area in which I empathisize with Zionist and right-wing sensibilities to the criticism that gets levelled at Israel and the US by the Left, leading them to ask: Is it always our fault? Why do you only criticize us?

We criticize more vehemently those who are not hopeless, those who are not destitute, those whose humanity has not been groung out of them day by day by day. We criticize those who claim to care about liberating the oppressed when they do not, who say that their "democracies" represent everyone, or would, but who listen only to the powerful. We criticse the hypocrites: those who claim to be "reasonable", "just" and who presume that they represent us.

The oppressed make no such claims; they do not have that luxury.

We expect those who represent us to extend a hand in friendship, even if it might be bitten, because if they really are what they claim to be then they should have the strength and courage to take that risk.

Someone has to make the first move.

Edited to add: The intentions of the author are very clear to me. They are to attempt to discredit criticsm of Israel's violence in the Occupied Territories by suggesting that there is a pan-Arab conspiracy to use European anti-semitism to destroy Israel.

quote:
Europeans have thus made themselves accomplices to an explicitly genocidal programme.

Holy hyperbole, Batman. Protocoles des Anciens de Paris?

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 01 April 2003 03:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And here is another view albeit from the Jewish Left and a magazine that many here, including myself, have actually found favourable.

Tikkun


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
tyoung
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3885

posted 01 April 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for tyoung        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I POST THIS PIECE NOT TO POINT ANY ACCUSING FINGER AT BABBLERS but more to have an honest discussion of some of her concepts.

Let's do it.

Here's one of her concepts, that I think is core to this issue:

quote:
The new anti-Semitism does not discriminate against Jews as individuals on account of their race. Instead, it is centred on Israel...

Now we are getting down to it: Critique of Israeli policy = anti-semitism in the view of this author. While I agree that there is a certain amount of severe criticism on the left and in the centre of Israeli policy, I think that shunting such discourse by calling it anti-semetic is only a tactic of distraction from the real issues of social justice that are at stake. The facts are evident: Israel has invaded territory and limited the human rights of palestinians, and the fact that they (the palestinians) are less than innocent is irrelevant. We should be able to critique the actions of both sides without the loaded threat that we are anti-semetic.

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: tyoung ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 01 April 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Indeed. The article is long on bombast and short on substance. The author claims the "Nazification of Israel" in Sweden, and alleges a wholesale anti-Semitic uproar in France without bothering to check as to whether the majority of French people with working minds actually support anti-Semitic beliefs and actions.

Mishei, for the ten millionth time, quit acting like you've got a personal fan club. It's transparently silly when you cordially thank certain posters for "thinking reliably" or "posting with clarity" or whatever.

On the subject of Israeli behavior.

For the umpteenth time, I restate my position on the issue:

The behavior of the IDF in recent years has been closer to that of police or soldiers in a banana republic than in a true Western-style democracy. Now, if Israel wants to be considered a banana republic I have no problem with that as long as it quits trying to use the cachet of historical oppression to shout down legitimate criticism of its actions and the actions of its officials and employees.

However, I would submit that the ideals of those who founded Israel based on the tenets of the Jewish faith have been sorely bent back if not broken.

Instead of building its society as a model of inclusion, the Israeli government has chosen to build Israeli society as a model of exclusion. The wall being built along the Green Line is ample proof of that.

One notes that actions speak louder than words. With every action, the Israeli government gives the lie to the claim it makes that it seeks what is best for all concerned.

And with every action the Israeli government validates a dangerous undercurrent of racism and ethnocentrism that rivals that of the Christian fundamentalists in North America.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 01 April 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Too true. Let us discuss why we are treated to endless puff-pieces by anti-Arab propagandists, instead of justifications for Israel's move to "annex parts of the occupied Palestinian territories by establishing militarily enforced Palestinian ghettos corresponding to the Palestinian population centres, while continuing its illegal colonisation policy. The wall will ensure that Palestinians are denied the ability to move, while Israeli settlers will be able to freely travel throughout the occupied Palestinian territories.".
From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 01 April 2003 04:23 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just want to step in here to say that the Palestinian struggle is not only about the occupied territories but also the right of refugees to return to their homes, which if resolved justly would go a very long way towards improving Arab-Jewish relationships.

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I have always held that the Israelis will have to leave the disputed territories the so-called right of return must apply to the newly found state of Palestine.

Anything else is a non-starter other than fairly compensating the immediate families of those who were forced by either Israel or Arab authorities to leave their homes in 1948.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 01 April 2003 06:40 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't you use the phrase "occupied territories" since that's what they are under international law (making the construction of settlements an illegal act).
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 April 2003 06:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
immediate families of those who were forced by either Israel or Arab authorities to leave their homes in 1948.

We all know of the Zionist Stern Gang, Deir Yassin, etc., and their role in forcing Palestinians out of their homes, but to what "Arab authorities" do you refer?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately, Muslim religious and political leaders from Arab nations of the day.

Until the dispute is settled I will refer to them as I do. That stated words should have less impact on you than the fact that I believe Israel should give up the disputed territories, abandon the settlements in order for there to be a free and democratic Palestine.

Hopefully the Palestinian people will soon begin to look past some of their despotic and crooked leadership, as well as those murdering terrorist leaders to the moderates who are preopared to make peace. Peace....


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 April 2003 11:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Unfortunately, Muslim religious and political leaders from Arab nations of the day.

Is it possible for you to be specific? Who were they, and how did they coerce Palestinians to leave their homes?

Edit:

I appreciate your saying that Israel should give up the settlements and allow an independent (although "independent" has varying degrees of meaning among the Zionist camp) Palestinian state, but why do you say "disputed" territories?

They are acknowledged by the UN as being occupied illegally by Israel.

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 11:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Al I will not do the research for you. There is a good history of this period written by one of the so-called new Israeli historians that many (on both sides of the issue) feel is a fair analysis of the time. His name is Benny Morris and the title of the book is Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist–Arab Conflict, 1881–2001.

Why don't you read it and then we should chat some more.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 April 2003 11:57 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Condescension noted:

I'll read your book (what irony, Morris was born in 1948) if you read "Expulsion of the Palestinians : the concept of "transfer" in Zionist political thought, 1882-1948" by Nur Masalha.

[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 April 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sounds fair...BTW it wasn't condescension it was exaspperation.

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 April 2003 11:29 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A friend just sent me this very interesting article from the Yale University newspaper. I support its proposition and commend it for reading with an open mind.

Yale Daily News

The issue which started the entire mess is doumented well in the following story from the same paper.

Applauding falsehoods at a university


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 04 April 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
WingNut, you seem to have a problem reading the word "Islamist." It does not mean Islamic. And Sisyphus has conveniently clipped off the first sentence of this quotation:

Whazzup?, you have a problem reading period. Talk about selective reading. The columnist posted by Mishei, says Arab and Islamist. And as we know from the racist Pipes and this columinist, all Moslems unwilling to lay down before western and Israeli domination is an Islamist.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 April 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When do we begin discussing the hate inherent in Zionism?

There are many racists within the Zionist movement. They advocate the less extreme ethnic cleansing to the more extreme killing of all Palestinians.

The so-called moderate Zionists are engaged in an occupation of an ethnic minority which includes stravation and the outright theft of water resources.

Let's keep an open mind in this. Zionism is a form of nationalism which is inherently racist. Any thoughts?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 April 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are many racists within the Zionist movement.


Wing did you even read the articles or are you just so set on disparaging your Zionists friends that you posted this garbage?

BTW, with your thinking why can I not claim that there are many within the Left who are bigots and racists therefore the entire left is tainted by these people?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 04 April 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Some people here are in deep denial about anti-Semitism.

That's my devalued 2 cents this morning.

The French government report is a good indication of the problem. My experience and the experience of many acquaintances at various demos and meetings tells the same story: people are allowed to get away with anti-Jewish expressions that would have had them expelled from polite society barely 5 years ago.

Case in point: I was at the big Montreal demo two weeks ago with a group of friends. We suddenly found ourselves surrounded by a group of people with Palestinian and Iraqi flags chanting in Arabic things such as "God is Great, Saddam Bomb, Gas Tel Aviv!" Others applauded. We of course walked away. A little while later, as we walked back from the event, those pro-Saddam partisans were in the crowd in front of the US consulate throwing objects at the police who were not moving, not provoking, not hitting back, just standing there quietly taking it. There were later reports about the police arresting poor little "peace" demonstrators.

It is not everyone, it is probably not more than a minority, but it is some elements. Why deny it, why refuse to denounce it, why refuse to expel and ostracise them, why accept it at demonstrations or at university meetings like the one at Yale?

Some people here doth protest too much.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 04 April 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why bring it up at every turn?

A few demonstrations ago, I saw an old lady with an Arabic accent at an anti-war demonstration with a sign "Zionism sucks." She was extremely energetic for her age and was yelling at the top of her voice, trying to drown out the people around her. What was she yelling? "Go to hell, Israel!" again and again and again. I'm rather uncomfortable with putting it that way--it's not nuanced at all, and to me, despite my opposition to Israeli policy, Israeli ideology, Israel's own view of its very creation and history, it borders on the offensive. But this is a demonstration, it's hard to put in nuance into something that is both heartfelt and on a placard. And this was an old lady, and by her enthusiasm I thought it might really be that she had a personal stake in all of this. It was quite likely that she was harmed by Israel or has relatives who are, and that she really does have a legitimate anger. Then who am I to trample on her sentiment.

Offensive people may appear at a demonstration, but it has to be taken in context.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 04 April 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't believe Jews were behind 11/9, or in a world-wide Jewish conspiracy. I think there are many bigots and racists among those who consider themselves on the left. I think they should be denounced. But I don't see how anyone can deny that the current form of Zionism is racist.

[ 04 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 04 April 2003 12:49 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
The old lady was one person, she wasn't calling for anyone to gas people, she didn't turn violent towards police or other people.

That's a big difference.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 April 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But I don't see how anyone can deny that the current form of Zionism is racist.
There is as much a "current form of Zionism" as there is a current form of "socialism". These movements are steeped in history with a definitive understanding.

While there may be some who call themselves Zionists who are bigots the same can be said for many who call themselves Socialists, leftists or anything else for that matter.

Zionism is and always will be the national aspiration of the Jewish people. The world wide Jewish population makes up but a dot on the world polity. To claim it is racist is to claim that all national aspirations are racist be it pan Arabism, Quebec Seperatism, Irish Nationalism the list is endless. So why pick on Zionism? Sometimes the answer is frighteningly clear.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 04 April 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do not consider the fundamental sentiment of Zionism--the amelioration of the oppression of the Jews--to be racist. However, it is true that the forms that currently legitimize the state of Israel require generous dollops of colonialism and nationalism that carry an inevitable racist detritus. As this struggle continues over who owns Palestine, it is also clear to me that power and mythology have combined with the fundamental Zionist sentiment to create a racist concoction that is more dangerous than other forms that do not have this power. In the future, other racist ideologies may be ascendant. But the entire debate over Israel--and therefore power over the Arab and Muslim world--has been informed by this particular category of Zionism.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 April 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While there may be some who call themselves Zionists who are bigots the same can be said for many who call themselves Socialists, leftists or anything else for that matter.

Exactly!

Geez, finally, a breakthrough.

I appreciate your thoughts, Mimi, but hatred towards America and Israel among Arabs and Palestinians can hardly be surprising. That they would be at an anti-war demo would hardly be surprising.

To them there is an alliance between Israel and the US that is undeniable. And so far as they are concerned, to the US and Israel, Arab lives are cheap.

You cannot deal with Arab hatred toward Israel unless you deal with the very real perceptions of Arab peoples.

However, Arabs are only marching with "leftists" out of convenience. And that, itself, is not really true either. While many in the anti-war movement are left, it is not exclusively left just as the pro-war side is not exclusively right.

And yes, Mishei, I read the articles. And yes, they are disturbing. But I will remind you that you went to see Pipes and defended his right to speak. It is difficult to fully appreciate your concern of an Arab racist speaking when you promote the right of Jewish racist to speak and even attend the event.

[ 04 April 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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lagatta
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posted 04 April 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Tikkun article was interesting, though unfortunately it failed to mention that Alain Finkielkraut (alongside Glucksman and Bernard-Henri Lévy) was one of the "New Philosophers - former May 1968 leftists, mainly from a Maoist background, who went over to the right wing, "There is no alternative" line of thought in the 1980s. There are a hell of a lot of French intellectuals of Jewish origin who have remained faithful to the left, including Maurice Rajfus, Pierre Vidal-Niquet and many others. They too are concerned about the rise of anti-Jewish sentiment among ghettoised Maghrebian youth (a friend of mine who is a prominent French intellectual of Jewish descent was threatened by a little gang of young Maghrebians in the métro not long ago) but don't envisage the same solutions. Nor do they fail to point out that the main victims of racism in France remain Maghrebians and Black Africans. Fortunately there are many French persons of "Muslim" Maghrebian origin (referring here to their cultural background as per "Jewish", not to any religious belief or lack of same) who have spoken out against this divisive "racism of the oppressed" and the ghetto culture that gives rise to it, as well as to an abhorrent, violent sexism towards young women in their own community.

Historically, not all Jewish nationalism was Zionist. The Bund was much, much larger and more influential before the Second World War.

I find Zionism tragic in a way, as the survivors of the Nazi death camps and other Jewish refugees who managed to elude them were conscripted in the oppression of another people who had nothing whatsoever to do with their oppression and murder, while maintaining impunity for those who actually undertook to exterminate European Jewry.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 April 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And yes, Mishei, I read the articles. And yes, they are disturbing. But I will remind you that you went to see Pipes and defended his right to speak. It is difficult to fully appreciate your concern of an Arab racist speaking when you promote the right of Jewish racist to speak and even attend the event.


While I have concerns with some of Pipes' rhetoric and condemn it to compare him to this dangerous racist who perpetuates Jewish blood libel is plain wrong .

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WingNut
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posted 04 April 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, it is not. Racism is racism. And the results of racists in positions of power is always terrible and tragic.

Pipes, this guy, they are all one and the same and they should all be condemned.


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Mishei
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posted 04 April 2003 01:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And the results of racists in positions of power is always terrible and tragic.
Pipes is an academic. He holds no "power" over anyone. Can you name even one person who has been impacted (ie loss job etc) as a result of Pipes?

Interestingly, I recall the same question being asked (I believe) in NOW or another local paper and those that were claiming this incredible "power" that Pipes allegedly has had to admit that no one had ever been harmed in any way. In fact in one recent article a Pipes detractor claimed quite proudly that Pipes' website had had NO affect in keeping academics from speaking out against Israel.


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WingNut
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posted 04 April 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And who does Amiri Baraka have power over? Who has he hurt?

Your argument is false. Pipes has hurt many people, indirectly. He offers a rationalization and justification for continued oppression and violence against Palestinians.

By your logic, Zundel is a quack with few followers who has hurt no one. Why not leave him alone?

It is incredible you are seem so willing to forgive a Jewish racist "who is only an academic" while being so unforgiving toward anti-Jewish racists.

I fear you are not so much anti-racist as I hoped.


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Mishei
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posted 04 April 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By your logic, Zundel is a quack with few followers who has hurt no one. Why not leave him alone?


Bullshit. I can name specific people who have been DIRECTLY impacted personally by Zundel. People who have had health problems and were directly humiliated publicly by him.

I am not nor have I ever been an apologist for Pipes. i only want to keep things in perspective. Pipes has publicly critisized those who have publicly gone after Israel, or the USA. Zundel has attacked private individuals, Holocaust survivors who have never been public. Big difference.

Pipes has written some things that have teetered on the edge of racism yes and I have said so in the past and condemmned them. But to compare him to Zundel is just off the wall, an attempt at another kind of moral equivalancy that most knowledgeable people will see right through.


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Mandos
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posted 04 April 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I very much think the difference is degree and not kind.
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WingNut
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posted 04 April 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the moral equivelancy is yours Mishei. Jewish racists are excused.

It was Pipes who wrote the nasty, false and racist article saying most rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim men of Arab descent. Black Americans who recall the spectre and horror of lynching will also recall the horrible lies about black men raping white women that often precipitated such lynchings.

Yet you will promote Pipes, excuse Pipes, soften the criticusm of Pipes. He isn't so bad. Not like Zundel or other anti-semitic racists.

Bullshit.

How many "camel jockeys" were attacked in Europe or North America after the column was read? Do you know?

Like I said, I am starting to think some racism is okay by you.

[ 04 April 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Mishei
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posted 05 April 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How many "camel jockeys" were attacked in Europe or North America after the column was read? Do you know?


Firstly, shame on you for using such a racist term even in quotes no need to perpeuate it. Secondly, I am not familiar with the quote you attribute to Pipes but I have checked and searched for stats as to those of North Afrivcan decent attacked in Norway over the last few years and can find nothing.

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WingNut
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posted 05 April 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am sure. The article was repeated by different columnists, of equal moral fibre, at least twice. It was discussed on this board. It was repeared in Europe and North America.

Shame on you for being so disingenuous as you go about forgiving racism.


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Mishei
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posted 05 April 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shame on you for misrepresenting my words. It was not the article I was looking for but any stats relating to harm coming to Muslims as a result of that article as you intimated. So perhaps you can take off your "let me see how I can embarass Mishei" glasses for a bit and see if you can provide me with these figures since I cannot seem to find them.
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DrConway
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posted 05 April 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, surely you cannot have failed to miss the growing animus against Muslims since September 11, 2001 - or need I remind you again of how mosques have been attacked, and individuals of generally darker skin color have been harassed and/or beaten?

Mishei, I also need not remind you that Bernie Farber of the CJC himself admits having been caught flat-footed by the growing resurgence of domestic right-wing white supremacist groups in the wake of Sept 11th since the CJC was focussed at the time on the Israeli situation.

Now, where the hell was I?

Right. How this relates to Daniel Pipes.

Pipes is thus taking advantage of an atmosphere which caters to the slander of Muslims. Is this not "harm" enough for you?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pathe Eton Hogg
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posted 05 April 2003 06:30 PM      Profile for Pathe Eton Hogg     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Pipes is thus taking advantage of an atmosphere which caters to the slander of Muslims. Is this not "harm" enough for you?

There was a backlash to the Crusades too. The Klan would have not a small number of people loaded up and shipped out of what they feel is their "God given land" yet how many Christians tell you that Klansmen aren't Christians at all? Is it any different with Muslims? The moderate say the same about the hardcore fundamentalist like UBL.

This is why the seperation of church and state are an important consept. You see what happens when someone like Bush who has been nothing more than a puppet gets ahold of power. Taliban - Republican, the real difference is optics and the amount of sheep in the population.


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lagatta
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posted 05 April 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Crusades - important to remember that the Crusaders killed a lot of Eastern Christians, and a lot of Jews.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 April 2003 07:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, the shame on this thread - it's enough to drown in...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 April 2003 07:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, THAT Benny Morris.
quote:
The radical Israeli historian who did more than any other to force his country to face up to its responsibility for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the 1948 war now believes the Middle East might be at peace if David Ben-Gurion had expelled all the Palestinians.

In an about-turn that will horrify his former Iiberal allies, Benny Morris argues in the Guardian that "perhaps, had [Ben-Gurion] gone the whole hog, today's Middle East would be a healthier, less violent place, with a Jewish state between Jordan and the Mediterranean and a Palestinian Arab state in Transjordan". He adds: "Perhaps it was the very indecisiveness of the geographic and demographic outcome of 1948 that underlies the persisting tragedy of Palestine."


Good one, Mishei. Recommending a writer who advocates ethnic cleansing.


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DrConway
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posted 05 April 2003 08:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Last night Professor Avi Shlaim, another eminent Israeli historian who challenged the orthodoxy, said: "What Israel carried out in 1948 was ethnic cleansing and what Benny is telling us now is that Ben-Gurion should have been more thorough and comprehensive in his policy of ethnic cleansing. Benny seems to have lost his moral bearings."

I'd say Benny Morris had just gone nuts, but that would be uncharitable.

It is, however, indicative of the heightening extremism in the Israeli arena if formerly reasonable people are leaping to conclusions which would fairly be condemned roundly and thoroughly were they suggested in any other country in any other context.

Can you imagine the absolute shitstorm that would come down if Vladimir Putin suggested that perhaps Stalin didn't go far enough and should have liquidated the entire Ukraine, or if someone in Canada suggested that perhaps all the aboriginals in North America should have been exterminated?

Remember that we DID in fact have quite the little stormy mess when a native leader (a band chief? I forget offhand) suggested that Hitler should have finished the job.

As I recall people for all over were hollering for his resignation (if not his head), and certainly not one Jewish advocacy group remained silent about the matter (and nor should they, given that support of genocidal ideas is not acceptable).

Benny Morris, on the other hand, will probably face no threat to his academic tenure if he has any, and will NOT face calls for his resignation except perhaps by B'Tselem or Gush Shalom, and will be allowed to continue to propound the ridiculous notion that perhaps booting everybody out and making Israel "Arab-free" was a better idea.

Can you imagine a German academic suggesting that Germany should have been made entirely Judenrein ("Jew-free")? Before the day was over he'd be sacked, put under the academic prohibition law in Germany (It's called a "profession ban" and has been used to devastating effectiveness against non-independently wealthy Neo-Nazis) and if lucky he'd get his unemployment checks.

What, Mishei, is the difference between Benny Morris and my hypothetical German academic? Defence of the existence of the state of Israel is not an acceptable excuse for rhetoric that parallels all too well the kind of racist rhetoric that we hear from Neo-Nazis, white supremacists and indeed many others in the world who think that "biological purity" is a Good Idea(TM).


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Mishei
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posted 05 April 2003 08:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, I also need not remind you that Bernie Farber of the CJC himself admits having been caught flat-footed by the growing resurgence of domestic right-wing white white supremacist groups in the wake of Sept 11th since the CJC was focussed at the time on the Israeli situation.

I have NEVER at any time claimed anything to the contrary. Let's review, Wing made a claim that Daniel Pipes' rhetoric may have led to Muslims being assaulted and hurt in Norway.
quote:
It was Pipes who wrote the nasty, false and racist article saying most rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim men of Arab descent. Black Americans who recall the spectre and horror of lynching will also recall the horrible lies about black men raping white women that often precipitated such lynchings.

...How many "camel jockeys" were attacked in Europe or North America after the column was read? Do you know?


After indicating my horror at the use of a racist term by him (even in quotes) I then asked for some statitics aboput this particular situation:
quote:
I am not familiar with the quote you attribute to Pipes but I have checked and searched for stats as to those of North Afrivcan decent attacked in Norway over the last few years and can find nothing.
Inever claimed that Muslims were not victimized since 9/11 I was being specific to the Pipes quote given by Wing and his claim that this quote led to violence against Muslims.

I am not sure what Farber's being caught flat-footed has to do with this issue. As I recall he was referring to a hate-rock concert in Toronto. Further I am sure that i need not remind you that the last release of hate crime stats from the Toronto police service still had Jews as the most targetted religious group.

In fact according to Toronto Police Services hate crimes against Muslims has decreased, thankfully.

Toronto police hate crimes report

[ 05 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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DrConway
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posted 05 April 2003 09:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am not sure what Farber's being caught flat-footed has to do with this issue. As I recall he was referring to a hate-rock concert in Toronto

It is my understanding that the CJC has normally been adept at keeping track of the ebb and flow of domestic right-wing white-supremacist groups which have conflicting general ideologies (example: KKK vs, say, Storm Front) but whose general objectives are similar: to harm ethnic minorities and historically targetted groups such as Jews and blacks.

Farber's comment when the hate rock concert came up was that he had had no advance warning whatsoever, or something to that effect. That suggests to me that the CJC hasn't been keeping its ear to the ground, as it were.

While I grant that the CJC has what as they see are valid reasons to be focussing on the Israeli situation, the fact remains that it is a Canadian Jewish Congress and as such keeping an eye on the scene in this country is, in my view, especially warranted given that to a white supremacist group there isn't much of a difference between a Jew and a Muslim especially as both religions are considered "alien" and characteristic of as they see it, inferior peoples.


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WingNut
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posted 06 April 2003 12:06 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Shame on you for misrepresenting my words.

Ah, so a hate only causes hurt if statistics are kept? Interesting argument. Not surprising, however, as you continue to excise and now even play down hate from a Jew. Maybe you, then, can provide me with hard numbers from a independent source of those directly harmed by Zundel?

I will wait.


While I wait, I would like to point out for those who are just joining us, I do think Zundel is a hareful person and I do think his hate has hurt people. I think the same of Pipes. I won't make excuses for Zundel just becuase he is christian.


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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 12:15 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing, I know personally,of at least 4 Holocaust survivors who were emotionally devestated as a result of Zundel. I know one in particular who was a witness at the first Zundel trial. It saddens me to even begin to think about what Zundel and his people did to him emotionally.

Once again on Pipes, it was you who left the impression that a particular thing he wrote may have led to Muslims being harmed. I am only asking you to give some demonstrable proof. On the issue of antisemites the Toronto hate crimes stats is sad proof never mind those I know personally that I referenced above. Trust me you too may have even felt some sadness for these poor people who in their life have been to hell and back and then had to deal with the likes of Zundel.


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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 12:21 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While I grant that the CJC has what as they see are valid reasons to be focussing on the Israeli situation, the fact remains that it is a Canadian Jewish Congress and as such keeping an eye on the scene in this country is, in my view, especially warranted given that to a white supremacist group there isn't much of a difference between a Jew and a Muslim especially as both religions are considered "alien" and characteristic of as they see it, inferior peoples.


But Doc they are "keeping an eye" on the scene here. As I understand it Farber and the CJC contend that as a result of the Middle East situation the number of what you might call politically motivated attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions has increaesed while at the same time , for the most part, the white supremacist movement has dissipated. It makes perfect sense if Farber was doing his job that his focus now should shift. After all the CJC is not a police service. I assume their resources are stretched so they focus where they must.

In fact the Hate crimes report I referenced earlier bears out the CJC concern.


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satana
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posted 06 April 2003 03:19 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Benny Morris is not nuts. I think he's an intelligent academic. His research shows that the Jewish state could not have been created without ethnic cleansing, and can not survive without it.

I believe a completely Arab-free Israel would have created a much more stable Jewish state. This is still a realistic possibility in the future. History has shown that genocide works, and many of todays Zionists know this very well.

Morris isn't saying anything new. His ideas are just as rational as white-supremacists'. All Zionists today advocate ethnic cleansing, the only difference between them is the degree of violence they are willing to go to.


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DrConway
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posted 06 April 2003 05:56 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Er. *ahem*. It is to be noted, satana, that you have committed a logical fallacy of hasty generalization. I grant that some Zionists may well be racist, Philistinic, backwards, and utterly devoid of any logic whatsoever, but surely not all Zionists favor genocide or even its more euphemistic variant, "ethnic cleansing".
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 06 April 2003 06:40 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel "ethnically cleansed" its territory of many non-Jews since 1947 to create a state with a Jewish majority. These people are still being denied their right to return. Even the most "moderate" of Zionists refuse to allow these non-Jews of returning to their homes inside the Jewish state in fear that Jews would no longer be a majority - in effect justifying the original ethnic cleansing.
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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 10:25 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana your develish claim that all Zionists are genocide supporters is exactly the type of comment that I believe perpetuates hatred. It is false, evil and must be shunned by decent people here and everywhere. Shame on you SHAME!!!!
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Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Feel like addressing the substance of his claim rather than just shouting "shame"? I'm sure there has to be a better argument than that.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 April 2003 10:29 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Once again on Pipes, it was you who left the impression that a particular thing he wrote may have led to Muslims being harmed. I am only asking you to give some demonstrable proof

Funny, you cannot provide any demonstable prrof proof Zundel hurting anyone.

However, according to Toronro Police Services Board, in a report I have read, the largest target of hate crimes last year were Arabs and Muslims and, sadly, those mistaken for Arabs and Muslims.

Your request by the way, is totally stupid. So you would say, because I can't prove Pipes' hate actually caused harm to a person, it is okay. Fine, prove actual harm from Zundel or acknowledge it is okay. And I mean proof. Not your "oh, I know someone." Show me the police and hospital statistics of people physicallly harmed by Zundel.

Otherwise, what is the problem?


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Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing, do you want the name of the Holocaust survivor in question so that you can ask him for his hospital records? You are absolutely shameless.

And Michelle, now you want me to prove that Zionists don't believe in genocide???? In my mind that is the same as asking me to prove that Holocaust occured!!! Some statements are just to ridiculous to demand proof.

quote:
However, according to Toronro Police Services Board, in a report I have read the largest target of hate crimes last year were Arabs and Muslims and, sadly, those mistaken for Arabs and Muslims.

In fact Wing you are wrong. Above I posted the latest Hate Crimes report from the Toronto police services in which crimes agaist Jews were FIVE TIMES GREATER than those against Muslims (page 9 2002 hate crimes reort).

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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satana
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posted 06 April 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And Michelle, now you want me to prove that Zionists don't believe in genocide???? In my mind that is the same as asking me to prove that Holocaust occured!!! Some statements are just to ridiculous to demand proof.
Mishei, are you implying the Holocaust never occured??? There is a ton of evidence that it happend!!!

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana you are an asshole
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satana
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posted 06 April 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh man. This is degenerating quickly.

Listen. I didn't say, Mishei, that you should have to prove that Zionists don't believe in genocide. What I'm saying is that you could counter those kind of claims with reasoned statements instead of screaming "shame" in every thread. It's making me crazy. And it has nothing to do with whether I agree with your point of view most of the time - you know I've defended you in the past when people are unreasonable or nasty to you.

I'm not saying you have to prove a negative. I'm saying that Satana wrote a reasoned claim about Zionists supporting ethnic cleansing. If you think he's wrong, or you think his reasoning is flawed, you don't have to "prove a negative" to point out where it is flawed. But freaking out and crying "Shame! Shame!" doesn't support your argument, and then the whole discussion goes downhill.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 April 2003 02:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And how exactly does one prove such a statement is stupid? Are there some people who call themseleves Zionists that are bigots? Of course. Does that make all Zionists "ethnic cleansers" Of course not.

Are there some posters on Babble who are bigots? Of course. Does that make all Babblers bigots? Of course not.

Are there some Babblers who are anti-Israel? Of course. Does that make all babblers anti-Israel? Of course not.

Are there some Babblers who are anti-Palestinian? Of course. Does that make all babblers anti-Palestinian? Of course not.

You get my drift. Satana's question had hateful intent. He/she knew it and asked it with the same intention as one would ask "do you still beat your wife?".


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 April 2003 02:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for that well-reasoned response. Certainly beats "Shame! SHAME!" doesn't it?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 April 2003 02:33 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While it may beat "shame shame" I really thought Babblers were smarter than that and did not need an explanation for the obvious.

There are times when engaging in a debate with a person such as Satana, who I beleieve only wanted to foment hatred, gives him/her more credibility than is deserved. Therefore sometimes, in such obvious cases, simple admonition for wrong-doing is best. It is sort of like engaging Jim Keegstra in a debate as to whether or not there is a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. Why would anyone want to do it? Better to point out the hatred than engage.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 April 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, see, Mishei, just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's "the obvious". There are lots of people in the world who think that the displacement of Palestinians from their land and the refusal to allow them to return is equivalent to "ethnic cleansing". You may disagree, but that doesn't mean that you are stating the obvious. The only obvious thing you've stated is what your opinion is on the issue.

P.S. Are you saying that satana is like Jim Keegstra?

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 April 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am saying that Satana, when he/she suggested that ALL Zionists believe in ethnic cleansing was fomenting hatred. I was suggesting that to argue with such a ludicrous statement is like arguing Jewish conspiracy with Keegstra.

Is Satana "like" Keegstra? He/she is not on the same ghastly plain but shares one similarity and that is fomenting hatred agaist Zionists of which BTW, as I have stated time and again, the vast majority of Jews are.

[ 06 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 April 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Ethnically cleansed" has such nasty connotations.

Why not stick with the original Zionist euphemism, which argues that the aboriginal population of Palestine be "sprited away"?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 06 April 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei: Are there some people who call themseleves Zionists that are bigots? Of course. Does that make all Zionists "ethnic cleansers" Of course not.
huh? What does bigotry have to do with ethnic cleansing? So, not all Zionists are bigots, but they all can still justify ethnic cleansing.

I have no hateful intent towards anyone, not even racists. I can understand what motivates many people to have racist opinions. "Ethnic cleansing" is a very rational way of solving problems. Violence towards other human beings because of who they are is very human. I think it is important to understand the motives behind these acts instead of dismissing them as "evil" or "stupid".

As far as I know, all Zionists today justify ethnic cleansing. I thought that was obvious to all who had some familiarity with Israeli history. Appartently it isn't. The ignorance distresses me. Which is why I feel I have to splash around these threads.

I have absolutely no hateful intent towards Jews. How popular Zionism may be in the Jewish community is irrelevant. Just because many people advocate ethnic cleansing doesn't make it right. I am critisizing a racist ideology not because I hate its adherents, but because I believe it has deeply damaged the community in many ways, and I would like to see it improve.

I want people to see the truth and the implications behind it. That is all.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 06 April 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana either you are beimg purposely provocative or you are just plain stupid. I know you are not stupid.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 06 April 2003 10:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My only request of you mishei is you show some consistency. That is all. If you oppose anti-Jewish bigots, good. So do I. But oppose equally Jewish bigots. You do not. You make excuses for them. You down play the pain their hate causes. You go and hear then and defend their right to promote hate.

Such double-standards is what I expect from skinheads. Not you. But what do I know?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 April 2003 11:10 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Wing what do you know? Referring or insinuating that I could be compared to a nazi skinhead is sick beyond belief.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 07 April 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't insinuate anything. I only indicated from where I would expect to find such double-standards. But, if you feel the shoe fits ...
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 April 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think it's reasonable for someone who is so adept at straddling the racist line to presume to suggest banning a television station (al Jazeera of course) because of the ethnicity of its originators.

Look in a mirror, Mishei.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 07 April 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I didn't insinuate anything. I only indicated from where I would expect to find such double-standards. But, if you feel the shoe fits ...
In fact you did insinuate and added fuel to the fire with this post. This is despicable. Clearly, you have re-enetered the hateful hall of personal slurs. It is too bad that you could not maintain some personal decorum but now that you are engaging in the worst form of name-calling (referring to me as a nazi skinhead) readers here will know that you are bereft of argument.

I will not engage in this form of stupidity.

quote:
don't think it's reasonable for someone who is so adept at straddling the racist line to presume to suggest banning a television station (al Jazeera of course) because of the ethnicity of its originators.
It seems to me that out and out lying is becoming de rigeur here on Babble,

Al I challenge you to show me one post where I make any suggestion that Al Jazeera should be banned because of the ethnicity of its originators. If you can find such a post I will apologize publicly. If not I expect you to apologize to this board for misrepresentation (ya sure!!)

[ 07 April 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 07 April 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh no! WingNut is despicable! Whatever shall we do?!

Mishei gets a taste of his own medecine. Mmm. How he feels about WingNut is the way the rest of us feel about him. Except that WingNut is actually somewhere close to correct...


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 07 April 2003 12:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And you wonder why those of us who support Israel here have suggested that certain postersare so filled with animus that they will go to any lengths to disparage Jews. Even insinuate that they are nazi skinheads. So Mandos join the club of haters and wear it well.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 07 April 2003 12:53 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought you had me pegged there already? I mean, you called me "beyond the pale" for claiming that Israel's creation lacked moral legitimacy. How am I supposed to take it when you, the great anti-racism fighter , call me "beyond the pale"? Like, we've been through your bullying enough already. Now when WingNut pushes you around a little bit, you scream bloody murder. Like I'm supposed to have any sympathy.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 April 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think this thread is going to get any better and it's well into its second page.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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