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Author Topic: US general with Iraq role linked to hardline Israelis
Moredreads
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posted 28 March 2003 02:22 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
US general with Iraq role linked to hardline Israelis

quote:
Lieutenant-General Jay Garner, the co-ordinator for civilian administration in Iraq, put his name in October 2000 to a statement blaming Palestinians for the outbreak of Israeli-Palestinian violence and saying that a strong Israel was an important security asset to the United States.



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 08:59 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And the purpose of this post ? Sadly it is again from MD all to obvious.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 March 2003 09:04 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, it is a completely legitimate thing for Moredreads to post and completely relevant to the discussion about the war on Iraq. I'd appreciate it if you didn't start the insinuations right from the beginning of the thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 28 March 2003 09:19 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In 1996 Mr Perle, nicknamed the Prince of Darkness, was the main author of a report entitled "Clean Break" whose contents were revealed by the Guardian last September (Playing skittles with Saddam, September 3 2002). This set out a plan to protect Israel's strategic interests by reshaping the Middle East, starting with regime change in Iraq.

From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 28 March 2003 09:41 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haha.. it's tough getting a scoop:

quote:
Perle, in the same 1998 article, told Forward that a coalition of pro-Israeli groups was "at the forefront with the legislation with regard to Iran. One can only speculate what it might accomplish if it decided to focus its attention on Saddam Hussein." And Perle, Wurmser and Feith (now in the Pentagon), in their 1996 Israeli think tank report to Netanyahu, argued for abandoning efforts for a comprehensive peace in favor of a policy of "rolling back" Syria to protect Israel's interests. Now, however, Israel is given a lower profile by those who would argue for rollback. Rather, writes Ledeen, U.S. troops would be put at risk in order to "liberate all the peoples of the Middle East." And this, he argues, would be virtually pain-free: "If we come to Baghdad, Damascus and Tehran as liberators, we can expect overwhelming popular support." Perle concurs on Iraq -- "The Arab World ... will consider honor and dignity has been restored" -- as well as Iran: "It is the beginning of the end for the Iranian regime."

Beyond Regime Change


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Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 09:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Legitimate? Possibly but I just cannot help but feel that any way Israel can some how be dragged into this war on Iraq there will be those doing the dragging and I have to ask why? Sure Israel benefits if Saddam is gone but it is not directly involved. It has stayed out of the fray so why the focus here because a US general supports Israel in dealing with terrorism. Seems awfully flimsy to me.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 28 March 2003 09:47 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I just cannot help but feel that any way Israel can some how be dragged into this war on Iraq there will be those doing the dragging and I have to ask why?

Ask Richard Perle. He seems to be doing most of the dragging.

From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 March 2003 09:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A lot of people feel that the Israel situation is part of the motivation for this war. Maybe you don't. Fine, then, debate it without making personal slurs against Moredreads for bringing it up.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 28 March 2003 09:52 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't speak for Moredreads, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe a few policy wankers took to this clash of civilizations drivel a little to seriously. It's not about Israel.

But then I'm sure some others view it as the other way around and I'll (oh hell, the whole leftist anti-Semitic hordes!) get painted accordingly.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 28 March 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One general may be flimsy, but there's no question that the Sharon government has been egging on the Bushites to go to war. And there's no question that many of the top Bushite advisors are hardline Likudnicks. Israel could benefit from the war. On the other hand, the whole thing could backfire, and not to Israel's benefit.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fact that Israeli leaders were supportive of the war is about as important as the fact that dozens of other world leaders were as supportive. Why the focus on Israel?
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pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 11:48 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, there's already been discussion on this board about Blair in particular, and other coalition members in general. Why not discuss Israel?
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 28 March 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why focus on Israel? Because it is the only major player in the middle east in favour of the war.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 28 March 2003 12:03 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No no no. Israel's security is not at all relevant to middle eastern politics. It isn't even located there.

Name that tune... "I want you to want me" by...?


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Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 12:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I understand the strategic importance of Israel and the impact of the war on it. I don't understand those who (for reasons we might speculate on) insist that somehow Israel is manipulating Bush and is the puppeteer behind this endeavour.

I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.


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ronb
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posted 28 March 2003 12:08 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank God you're here to leap to conclusions.
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Black Dog
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posted 28 March 2003 12:36 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I understand the strategic importance of Israel and the impact of the war on it. I don't understand those who (for reasons we might speculate on) insist that somehow Israel is manipulating Bush and is the puppeteer behind this endeavour.
I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.

Oooh, slick!
Somehow, Mishei manages to imply that any discussion of Isreal's role in the Bushevick's plan to re-shape the Middle East borders on anti-semetism (the battered straw man of babble), but manages to cloak it just enough to categorically deny it later.
So, given the Iraqi regime's openly expressed support of the Palestinian cause, the long history of enimity between Iraq and Israel, the clearly and publicly acknowleged plan to re-shape the region according to American and Israeli security interests, perhaps you could explain why a discussion of Israel in relation to this war should not be pursued.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 28 March 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fact that Israeli leaders were supportive of the war is about as important as the fact that dozens of other world leaders were as supportive. Why the focus on Israel?

Because the Perle-Wolfowitz-Rumsfeld axis in the Pentagon have all emphasised Israel's strengthened role in the region as a key facet of US foreign policy. Mishei, I think you're sticking your head in the sand on this one.

I don't think it's a question of Israel manipulating the US, I think it's a matter of US neo-cons seeing American and Israeli Likud interests as overlapping.

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 12:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oooh, slick!
Somehow, Mishei manages to imply that any discussion of Isreal's role in the Bushevick's plan to re-shape the Middle East borders on anti-semetism
This is just the usual typical bullshit attempting to silence my concerns. Sorry it will not work. Once again if you want to read into things BE MY GUEST. Just don't take me along for the ride.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.

So you feel the need to protect us from ourselves? A very generous offer, but I'll pass. Thanks all the same, though. I think I can muddle through a discussion like this without going over to the dark side.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 28 March 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What exactly ARE your concerns with this thread, anyway, Mishei?
Oh and I noticed you neglected to include the last bit of my quote.
quote:
...but manages to cloak it just enough to categorically deny it later.

Which you did.
quote:
I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.

If you think babble is going to degenerate to the level of neo-Nazism by raising the issue of what role Israel plays in the current conflict, you're out of your mind. You're obviously smart enough and have spent enough time here to disregard that possibility, so I can only assume this was a veiled allusion to the "leftist anti-semetism" that gets dragged out here every so often.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 01:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No I have seen racist posts here in the past and I just want to ensure that we take the high road. The vast majority of Babblers (you are quite right) would never engage in such crap but word to the wise is always helpful.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, this was your first post to this thread:

quote:
And the purpose of this post ? Sadly it is again from MD all to obvious.

You call that a "word to the wise"?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 01:56 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do
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Sisyphus
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posted 28 March 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Moredreads, Mishei called you "wise".

Look, it's no secret that there is a very powerful pro-Israel lobby in the US, just as there is a smaller, but equally powerful pro-Saudi Arabia lobby. It is also no secret that Israel has (for understandable reasons) been pre-occupied with eliminating Saddam Hussein since at least (to my knowledge) his ascension to power in 1979.

According to ex-Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky, the reason that the Mossad did not warn the American government of the impending 1983 attack on their marines in Beirut, was that it would have compromised Israeli assets in Iraq who were following Saddam's attempts to procure nuclear weapons.

In view of this and of Sharon's eagerness for a war in his neighbourhood, I think it is highly relevant, and not construable in any way as any sort of bigotry, that those who think this war is a crime against humanity should investigate the motives of those who support it.

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 March 2003 04:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't know Hussein came into power in 1979. Interesting - same year as the Islamic revolution in Iran. For some reason I thought Hussein was in power longer than that.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 28 March 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He had been de facto leader since the early 70's.
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Sisyphus
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posted 28 March 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What ronb says is very true. He was "the man behind the throne" from at least 1973. The Baath first came to power in 1963, in a coup organised by the CIA. They overthrew the regime run by Abd al-Karim Qassim, a nationalist army officer.
quote:

In early 1963, Saddam had more important things to worry about than his outstanding bill at the Andiana Cafe. On February 8, a military coup in Baghdad, in which the Baath Party played a leading role, overthrew Qassim. Support for the conspirators was limited. In the first hours of fighting, they had only nine tanks under their control. The Baath Party had just 850 active members. But Qassim ignored warnings about the impending coup. What tipped the balance against him was the involvement of the United States. He had taken Iraq out of the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact. In 1961, he threatened to occupy Kuwait and nationalized part of the Iraq Petroleum Company (IPC), the foreign oil consortium that exploited Iraq's oil.
In retrospect, it was the ClAs favorite coup. "We really had the toes crossed on what was happening," James Critchfield, then head of the CIA in the Middle East, told us. "We regarded it as a great victory."
Iraqi participants later confirmed American involvement. "We came to power on a CIA train," admitted Ali Saleh Sa'adi, the Baath Party secretary general who was about to institute an unprecedented reign of terror. CIA assistance reportedly included coordination of the coup plotters from the agency's station inside the U.S. embassy in Baghdad as well as a clandestine radio station in Kuwait and solicitation of advice from around the Middle East on who on the left should be eliminated once the coup was successful. To the end, Qassim retained his popularity in the streets of Baghdad. After his execution, his sup-
porters refused to believe he was dead until the coup leaders showed pictures of his bullet-riddled body on TV and in the newspapers.

Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein" by Andrew and Patrick Cockburn.

They lost power briefly but in 1968 General Ahmad Hasan al Bakr became leader with Saddam Hussein as his deputy.


quote:
Very soon, because of his hard work, most of the actual control of the government was assumed by Saddam Hussein. Bakr surrendered everything to Saddam, because Saddam worked an eighteen-hour day. In no time at all, Saddam was head of Security, he was head of the Peasants Department, he was head of Relations with the Kurds, he was head of the Committee that controlled the oil. He was head of the committee that controlled relations with the Arab countries. He was head of the Workers Syndicate.

The Baath government developed by Saddam Hussein in the '70s soon won the respect of the Iraqi people and other Arab countries. With the assistance of oil money, economic development began in a manner consistent with Baath party socialist ideals. Land reclamation projects, railroads, highways, mining and manufacturing all underwent rapid development. These projects were successful because Iraq had a significant population unlike some of the sparsely populated oil producing countries and many were educated.
It soon became necessary for Iraq to import labor from other Arab countries. These workers were welcomed and treated well by the Iraqi government. When Saddam Hussein assumed full power in 1979 he and the Baath party were at a peak of popularity among all levels of society.


Quote from:click

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 28 March 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and al Bakr was his cousin, I believe.
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Sisyphus
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posted 28 March 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has joined the call against Tehran, arguing in a November interview with the Times of London that the U.S. should shift its focus to Iran "the day after" the Iraq war ends.

Since clockwork "does not endorse the content of the links", can anyone confirm if this is true?

If it is, I would say that Mishei's objections to this thread on anti-semitic grounds are an (perhaps naive and unwitting) attempt to obscure Israel's true interest in US agression.

Edited to add: Oh. "Seek and ye shall find". I'd say you have to work very hard to aspire to zero credibility with respect to your pronouncements about Israel, Mishei.

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 28 March 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's true. From the Times, 5 Nov 2002:

quote:
ISRAEL’S Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has called on the international community to target Iran as soon as the imminent conflict with Iraq is complete.

In an interview with The Times , Mr Sharon insisted that Tehran — one of the “axis of evil” powers identified by President Bush — should be put under pressure “the day after” action against Baghdad ends because of its role as a “centre of world terror”.



Mishei, perhaps if Sharon stopped trying to influence US foreign policy people would stop accusing the Israelis of influencing US foreign policy?

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 28 March 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, perhaps if Sharon stopped trying to influence US foreign policy people would stop accusing the Israelis of influencing US foreign policy?


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 March 2003 05:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey Moredreads, Mishei called you "wise".

skdadl is rolling on floor, holding tummy.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 28 March 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.

In the thirties actual Nazis spread propoganda that there was a Kremlin inspired plot of Bolsheviks, intent on taking power in Germany. This was the truth.

Point being: That just because Nazi's and other facist forces manipulate the truth toward their own ends does not mean that the essential truth is invalid, what is invalid is the conclusion drawn from that truth.

It is all very well and fine for you to caution people about the dangers that some interpretations of those truth entail, but not to try an obfusticate those truths simply because those truths are used by other sources to negative ends.

So much to say that even if their is a factual relationship there is not neccessarily a 'thematic' relationship. And I can assure that my theme is quite different from that of any neo-Nazis.

quote:
In 1996, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith and David Wurmser, now administration officials, joined in a report to the newly elected Likud government in Israel calling for "a clean break" with the policies of negotiating with the Palestinians and trading land for peace. They said "Israel can shape its strategic environment…by weakening, containing and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq…Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly." They called for "reestablishing the principle of preemption."

I think it is more than appropriate for you to dispute the veracity of my first post, the above linked quote and any of the other inoformation provided by others in this thread. Such would be more than welcome, but up until now you have not established that any of them including the Indpendent UK piece are not completely true.

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 09:30 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Watching Skdadl and others making fun of me brings me back to those days in elementary school where those who were different were laughed at. Not a great memory.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 March 2003 09:37 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I understand the strategic importance of Israel and the impact of the war on it. I don't understand those who (for reasons we might speculate on) insist that somehow Israel is manipulating Bush and is the puppeteer behind this endeavour.

Just because there is a pro-Israeli lobby and certainly members of it may be Jewish does not mean that I or others on the left are buying into the rather dumb-assed notion that there is a Jewish Conspiracy a la the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or whatever the hell it is that passes for truth in Neo-Nazi and far right circles.

After all, the Christian Coalition, just to cite an example, is very likely a pro-Israeli heavyweight in the Israel lobby in the USA.

Certainly they are not Jewish!

quote:
I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.

I think you're overgeneralizing again, and it's one of the most irritating things you do. You constantly "warn", "alert", or whatever, and it's getting to the point where you might as well save your fingers because I'm sure that people here are smart enough to turn on their BS detectors and sniff out any right-wing white-supremacist influences on websites that are referenced.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 March 2003 09:52 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc I hope you are right. I do recall a few weeks back that someone posted an article from a white supremacist site. To the credit of the moderator it was removed . However as I recall there were some who saw little wrong with the post and felt it should have not been taken off. So as I said Doc I hope you are right.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 March 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well obviously linking to Stormfront and using it as an allegedly credible source would get a roar of laughter from me, but I'd still question the wisdom of such a linking rather than just passing it by.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 28 March 2003 11:43 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, no one is making fun of you because you're "different". We're making fun of you because you have a blind spot a mile wide when it comes to Israel and that's become quite obvious in this thread where, despite clear evidence of a community of interest between the Israeli right and American neo-conservatives, you object to any mention of it.

Have you ever read the story about the Emperor's new clothes? It's foolish, incredible actually, to deny the evidence of your own eyes.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 29 March 2003 05:13 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The American military has been asking the Israeli army for advice on fighting inside cities, and studying fighting in the West Bank city of Jenin last April, unnamed United States and Israeli sources have confirmed. Reports that US troops trained with Israeli forces for street-to-street fighting have been denied

From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 March 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...despite clear evidence of a community of interest between the Israeli right and American neo-conservatives, you object to any mention of it.
I never objected to "any mention" of the situation. I asked only that you show care and sensitivity when posting. Mighty big difference.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 March 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Watching Skdadl and others making fun of me brings me back to those days in elementary school where those who were different were laughed at.

quote:
I asked only that you show care and sensitivity when posting.

Good gravy, Mishei, are you for real?

A couple of days ago you deliberately misquoted somebody in a blatant, sleazy, and clumsy attempt to discredit his post. When challenged on it you professed innocence. Yeah Shuuuure.

Yet here you have the temerity to accuse others of insensitivity.

If your current activity on babble is any indication of your behaviour as a child, I suspect you weren't picked on for being "different," but rather for acting like a duplicitous whiner.

QA'BONG

[ 30 March 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 March 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A couple of days ago you deliberately misquoted somebody in a blatant, sleazy, and clumsy attempt to discredit his post. When challenged on it you professed innocence. Yeah Shuuuure.


Cripes I hope to God you never serve on a jury. Your attempt to accuse and then find me guilty just because you think I am is ugly and undemocratic never mind the fact that those who have read the thread in question will know what an absolute liar you really are.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 March 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A couple of days ago you deliberately misquoted somebody in a blatant, sleazy, and clumsy attempt to discredit his post. When challenged on it you professed innocence. Yeah Shuuuure.

Listen. He explained himself and eventually went back and corrected the post. He says he was focusing on the last part of the sentence instead of the beginning of it, and he didn't take advantage of the misquote in his response to it, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Could you please just get over it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 March 2003 11:59 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Your attempt to accuse and then find me guilty just because you think I am is ugly and undemocratic never mind the fact that those who have read the thread in question will know what an absolute liar you really are.

I hope you aren't a lawyer, because what I wrote was an inference. I'll leave the lying to the professional dissemblers.

Michelle; please could you at least allow me to post once on a subject before telling me to "get over it."


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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 12:08 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Although I also have my doubts about the explanation offered concerning the original incident to which this fracas pertains, I want to say (and since it concerns me) I think the subject should be dropped as the original quote was changed and an 'explanation' offered.

[ 31 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 March 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I got nuthin' to add.
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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 08:04 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do!

Infrastructure Minister Paritzky dreams of Iraqi

quote:
National Infrastructures Minister Joseph Paritzky has requested an assessment of the condition of the old oil pipeline from Mosul to Haifa, with an eye toward renewing the flow of oil in the event of friendly post-war regime in Iraq.


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Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just another example of what happens when you mistakenly over emphasize Israel's link to this war.

Photo


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Michelle
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posted 31 March 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're right. It's all babble's fault that he wore that bandana.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 31 March 2003 11:54 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have seen the picture before, Mishei. And I would just like to point out again, Pakistan is an ally. Remember?

Also, it is interesting to note, that one of the many documents floating around indicated the US hoped to have the support of an extremist Shiite group arpound Basra who are thought to be responsible for several terrorist attacks.

Even though they hate Israel and have attacked US targets, because they are anti-Saddam, they were considered to be "good guys."

Apparently, however, they would rather kill Americans than help topple Saddam.


You know what they say about laying down with dogs ...


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ronb
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posted 31 March 2003 12:01 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This would be where we're supposed to post an article on one of those recent racially motivated attacks on Muslim-Americans and make some outrageous statement about Likud complicity.
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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've seen that before. I guess the man is a fool.

I have to say that I would not have to go far to find similar garbage being disseminated by some of the less savory factions within the Jewish community.

But since you insist, and seem to be obssessed with covering up any attempt to identify and expose the clear links between Israel, as a political entity and the US and the UK let me fill you in. I am not a proponent of the idea that Israelis, Zionist or Jews are the grand manipulators behind the scenes, quite the opposite.

If you want my overall geopolitical analysis of Israel, its history and its relationship to the imperialist forces that have shaped the Middle East, I will give it.

I think that Jewish people (are yet again) more or less patsies in the game being played. I think that many Jews, having been terrorized by Hitler, have been duped into following this militarized and fanatic vision of their faith as defined by the extreme right proponents of Zionism.

I think that their legitimate desire for peace security and self determination has been twisted and used first by the British, and now by the US, so that Israel, the dream, has been converted into Israel, the tool, used as the wedge to keep a European door open in the Middle East.

The fact that there are extremely malevolent forces in Zionism that work hand in hand with, and share a common vision with, and also manipulate these natural desires of the Jewish people in consort with these other forces is a clear and evident fact.

Likewise, I also believe that exposing the clear links between Pakistan, the ISI, Osama bin Laden and previous US government adminstrations in no was contributes to hatred against Pakistanis. In fact I believe that the more those links are exposed, and the more truth that comes out about how the genunine desires of both Pakistanis (and Muslims) and Israelis (and Jews) are being cynicaly manipulated by the same forces, the more likely it is that they will discover what unites them, not what devides them.

Summary: It is time for both Jews and Muslims to stop being patsies for people like Musharaf, Sharon and George W. Bush and the forces they represent.

[ 31 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You're right. It's all babble's fault that he wore that bandana.
Michelle, rather disappointing response to say the least. I have never claimed such a stupid thing. Shit, give me a small break. Am I not permitted to post such pics as information without being harangued that somehow I am suggesting its Babble's fault? Your comment was unfair, over-the-top and personally offensive.

I know that there are some here who would just wish I go away hence when I post anything remotely negative I get posts like the one you sent. However you always seemed more fair and level-headed that's why Im so personally disappointed.


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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 12:31 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's just that you never add anything new, relevant or interesting, just harangue.
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Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In your opinion MD but that was not what I asked was it? Is it fair that anyone claim that I blamed babble for this ugly pic????
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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well you put it there didn't you...
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Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 01:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MD you are a master at not answering questions. However I will take by your non-answer that you agree with me that I never blamed babble for what the bandana bigot wore.
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pogge
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posted 31 March 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just another example of what happens when you mistakenly over emphasize Israel's link to this war.

Completely off topic. No semantic content.


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Sisyphus
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posted 31 March 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Am I not permitted to post such pics as information without being harangued that somehow I am suggesting its Babble's fault? Your comment was unfair, over-the-top and personally offensive.

Mishei, you are incredible. I am in awe of your skills.
You seem to measure out innuendo, accusation and victimhood with microscopic precision. So, was this comment "unfair, over-the-top"? :

quote:
You're right. It's all babble's fault that he wore that bandana.


Let's see:

quote:
Possibly but I just cannot help but feel that any way Israel can some how be dragged into this war on Iraq there will be those doing the dragging and I have to ask why?

I don't understand those who (for reasons we might speculate on) insist that somehow Israel is manipulating Bush and is the puppeteer behind this endeavour.
I have seen this theme on neo-Nazi websites and I only fear that some of that sentiment may get played out here which would be very sad indeed.

This is just the usual typical bullshit attempting to silence my concerns .

No I have seen racist posts here in the past and I just want to ensure that we take the high road.

Watching Skdadl and others making fun of me brings me back to those days in elementary school where those who were different were laughed at. Not a great memory.

Just another example of what happens when you mistakenly over emphasize Israel's link to this war.


In all cases, the emphasis is mine and mine alone. I am not as smart as you, Mishei. There's no way I could, as you have in the posts quoted above, compare us to Neo-Nazis, insinuate that we are racists and top it off by suggesting that, if we are insulted by this name-calling that you use instead of reasoned debate, then we are engaged in a personal vendetta against poor little you. The reasons you impute to us for this supposed vendetta are not hard to guess.

My admiration, Mishei is that you manage to accomplish all of this without actually coming out and saying that you feel we are all ganging up on you because you are Jewish and most of us are anti-Semites and that the few deluded souls who are not should be glad that they have you, the lone hero, to rip away the veil of progressive politics to expose the neo-Nazi monster that lurks beneath.

Edited for obsseisive-compulsions and to say. Mishei, I am not being facetious when I say I respect your technique.

[ 31 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In all cases, the emphasis is mine and mine alone. I am not as smart as you, Mishei. There's no way I could, as you have in the posts quoted above, compare us to Neo-Nazis, insinuate that we are racists and top it off by suggesting that, if we are insulted by this name-calling that you use instead of reasoned debate, then we are engaged in a personal vendetta against poor little you. The reasons you impute to us for this supposed vendetta are not hard to guess.

My admiration, Mishei is that you manage to accomplish all of this without actually coming out and saying that you feel we are all ganging up on you because you are Jewish and most of us are anti-Semites and that the few deluded souls who are not should be glad that they have you, the lone hero, to rip away the veil of progressive politics to expose the neo-Nazi monster that lurks beneath.

Edited for obsseisive-compulsions and to say. Mishei, I am not being facetious when I say I respect your technique.


Were it all so true that I have such power over the written word. Howver and in fact NEVER compared you to neo nazis,insinuate that you are racists,or in any way called you or anyone else here anti-Semites.

I am absolutely and truthfully flabbergasted that you could ascribe such nefariousness to me. I say this with all the honesty I can muster, and to everything I consider sacred, your accustaions are more papranoia than real.

Now you can call me a liar , you can call me an evil maipulator but I tell you and all other Babblers that your accusations are off-base, paranoid and wrong. I dont claim you do this purposefully and I take note of the seriousness of your post as you shoild take note of mine.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 March 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
horsefeathers
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WingNut
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posted 31 March 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And in other news, Powell tells Irsrael supporters "settlement activity must end." Now? No. As Palestinian violence subsides.That's right, no need for Israeli violence to end. And settlemente can continue forever because we know the violence will not end until the occupation ends and the occupation will continue until every Palestinian is dead or gone or both.

The great US and its double-standard.

Link

[ 31 March 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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pogge
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posted 31 March 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on the good General from Alternet.

The Man Who Would Be King of Iraq


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 31 March 2003 06:59 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scary stuff in that article, Slim. I think they were a bit hard on Patriot missiles, though. Surely the RAF is impressed with them. .

[ 31 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 31 March 2003 09:00 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the "totally blind to perceptions" department. Powell makes speech attacking Syrian before AIPAC after meeting with the Israeli foreign minister, and after a high-ranking Israeli speculated that Syria may be hiding Iraq's WMD. Even the most moderate person in the Arab world would have reason for suspicion after this public relations incompetence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/31/international/worldspecial/31CND-POLI.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
JERUSALEM -- Never have Israel and the United States had such close coordination on Iraq.

More creeping anti-semitism from the Jewish News Bulletin of Northern California.

[ 31 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 31 March 2003 09:59 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shame on the Jewish News Bulletin for "overemphasizing the role of Israel in this war" and for stating facts which might lead some people to make certain unfair insinuations.

No doubt the JNB is anti-Semitic and is just putting forward this item as part of some sort of hidden agenda.


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Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 08:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

JERUSALEM -- Never have Israel and the United States had such close coordination on Iraq.
More creeping anti-semitism from the Jewish News Bulletin of Northern California.


Typical misappropriation of a story.

Originally from the JTA and reprinted in a Jewish newspaper the story is really about how the USA is trying to ensure that Israel ]does not have to get into the war. Conveniently of course this is not mentioned with the hope that the reader will not thoroughly check out the story. Let me be helpful and quote a piece from the article that MD "chose" to ignore (and you wonder why I think MD may have an agenda?)

[QUOTE] JERUSALEM -- Never have Israel and the United States had such close coordination on Iraq.

As the anticipated American attack on Baghdad draws nearer, the U.S. military even has been showing Israeli officials its detailed plans for preventing Iraqi missile attacks on Israel.

But the reason for the American operational largesse is clear: The United States does not want Israel to play any military role in the war against Iraq.

[/QUOTE


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WingNut
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posted 01 April 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So if you do not quote all relevant and potentially important aspects of a story when linking it for all the world to read, we should assume you are merely advancing an agenda, mishei?
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Moredreads
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posted 02 April 2003 07:08 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For Israel Lobby Group, War Is Topic A, Quietly

quote:
This week's meeting in Washington of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has put a spotlight on the Bush administration's delicate dance with Israel and the Jewish state's friends over the attack on Iraq.



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Michelle
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posted 02 April 2003 07:20 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle; please could you at least allow me to post once on a subject before telling me to "get over it."

Just noticed this now.

Well, al-Qa'bong, what I was telling you to "get over" was the fight from another thread that has already been resolved and that you insisted on dragging into this thread.

Nobody's stopping you from posting on the subject of this thread - in fact, I wish you had done just that.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 02 April 2003 07:26 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just drop it Michelle that issues has already been resolved.
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Michelle
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posted 02 April 2003 07:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 April 2003 07:36 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So if you do not quote all relevant and potentially important aspects of a story when linking it for all the world to read, we should assume you are merely advancing an agenda, mishei?
Only if the information you omit totally contradicts your premise

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Michelle
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posted 02 April 2003 07:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't we just admit that nobody is "objective" on this issue, and everyone has an "agenda" and go from there?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 02 April 2003 09:20 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right.

From the artilce I posted above:

quote:
The Bush administration was somewhat ambivalent about tying itself to AIPAC and Israel. Though it sent several officials to the meeting with strong pro-Israel messages, there were efforts to keep things low-key. The White House insisted that yesterday's speech by Rice, though delivered to a room with 2,000 people, be "off the record."

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Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 09:14 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe it is me but what's wrong with US officials addressing a major American Jewish conference?
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Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 09:18 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing, its just that what Ms. Rice has to say is of great importance to the world and the Middle East, so its odd that it was an off the record speech.
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josh
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posted 03 April 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing's wrong with it per se Mishei, but if you have no problem with how the Arab and Muslim world will perceive Powell giving such a speech before the organization that pretty much dictates Israeli-Palestinian policy to Congress, then don't complain when wild conspiracy theories take root in that world.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nothing's wrong with it per se Mishei, but if you have no problem with how the Arab and Muslim world will perceive Powell giving such a speech before the organization that pretty much dictates Israeli-Palestinian policy to Congress,
Oh Josh even you now spread the calumny of Jewish power and control...

What next "the Zionist control of their puppet Bush?"


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josh
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posted 03 April 2003 11:02 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, it's a fact that when AIPAC wants a resoluton passed declaring that the American embassy should be moved to Jerusalem, or condemning Arafat, all they have to do is ask. The only time I can recall that AIPAC did not get what it wanted from Congress is the AWACS sale to Saudi Arabia. And that was over twenty years ago.

It's not "zionist control." But it cannot be denied that the effectiveness of AIPAC has made object foreign policy in the mideast nearly impossible.

Can you imagine Powell addressing an Arab-American group and calling for Israeli withdrawal from the west bank, gaza and the Golan Heights?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 April 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Grow up Mishei.

It is understood in the Arab world that the Iraq war is being fought by the US and Britain with Israel. And here we have senior Bush officials dictating US foreign policy to an Israeli lobby group. Perception is everything. And imagine the perception when the same rhetoric used to launch war against Iraq is now being used by Rice against Iran in front of this group.

In fact, Arabs, and anyone else, would be hard pressed not to see collusion.

And to further feed the flame, Israel, in cheering the war killing so many Iraqis, is now speaking of using an oil pipeline direct from Iraq to Israel.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 03 April 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And to further feed the flame, Israel, in cheering the war killing so many Iraqis, is now speaking of using an oil pipeline direct from Iraq to Israel

You mean this?

In the pipeline: More regime change

quote:
An Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, has reported that Israel is seriously considering restarting a strategically important oil pipeline that once transferred oil from the Iraqi city of Mosul to Israel's northern port of Haifa. Given the Israeli claim of a positive US approach to the plan, the Israeli project provides grounds for a theory that the ongoing war against Iraq is in part a joint US, British and Israeli design for reshaping the Middle East to serve their particular interests, including their oil requirements.

(snip)

Iraqi consent will be out of the question as long as the current regime of Saddam Hussein is in power. As acknowledged by the Israeli minister, a prerequisite for the project is, therefore, a new regime in Baghdad with friendly ties with Israel. However, such a regime, if ever it comes to power, will still require Syria's consent to operationalize the pipeline. Given the overall political environment in the Middle East and Israel's continued occupation of Syria's Golan Heights, the existing Syrian regime will never grant its consent as long as the status quo prevails. As stated by the Iranian government, during the Iran-Iraq war (1980-88) when Iraq enjoyed cordial and close relations with Israel's mentor, the United States, Israel tried, but failed, to resume the oil flow through the pipeline. Syria, a friend of Iran and an enemy of Iraq, blocked the flow of Iraqi oil.


This article would suggest that Syria would be the next likely target for regime change - assuming of course that all of this really is about oil, at least in part.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pssst... Don't forget the water...
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's not "zionist control." But it cannot be denied that the effectiveness of AIPAC has made object foreign policy in the mideast nearly impossible.

Can you imagine Powell addressing an Arab-American group and calling for Israeli withdrawal from the west bank, gaza and the Golan Heights?


Ah to say they are an effective lobby is far different now isn't it?

And you are right, Powell would never say such a thing becaust it is not American policy. I can see him though asking that settlements be stopped for example.


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Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And no sooner does the conference end when:

we find out that: Israel True to Values, Ashcroft Says :

quote:
Ashcroft spoke in the afternoon to about 600 members of Stand for Israel, a fledgling group founded by Republican activist Ralph Reed and Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, head of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.

But more importantly that:

quote:
In accepting his award, DeLay (R-Tex.) lambasted a State Department human rights report that criticized Israel's treatment of Palestinians. The report "compares the human rights record of a free, tolerant and pluralistic nation with that of a terrorist network. There is no comparison, and to assert one is ridiculous," he said.


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Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The report "compares the human rights record of a free, tolerant and pluralistic nation with that of a terrorist network. There is no comparison, and to assert one is ridiculous," he said.

And who would disagree with this??

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Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Me... the similarity of the results are too striking to ignore.

[ 03 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 03 April 2003 11:36 AM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And who would disagree with this??

I would not disagree. That is why it's so sad that they are comparable .

I'd expect more from the pluralistic, democratic society.

[ 03 April 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 April 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you don't see anything wrong, from a public relations point of view, with Powell making such a speech before AIPAC?

And to me effectiveness and dictation are two sides of the same coin. AIPAC is effective because it dictates congressional policy, and it dictates because it is effective.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 April 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, the US Energy industry sure has an effective "lobby" too, don't they? Just ask Dick Cheney.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Me... the similarity of the results are too striking to ignore.
A sick attempt at moral equivalancy and exactly what is wrong with some here. To compare Israel with terrorist murderers remains depraved in my books.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 03 April 2003 12:42 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know that book. It's the one that starts "My country, right or wrong..."
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Sisyphus
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posted 03 April 2003 12:49 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A sick attempt at moral equivalancy and exactly what is wrong with some here. To compare Israel with terrorist murderers remains depraved in my books.

As usual, Mishei, you have described how you feel about it. Do you have a single substantive argument to show that Israel should not be judged equally or (as I believe) held to a higher standard?

Edited to add: I don't believe I'm too naive, but if someone were to compare the behaviour of, let's say, the Saskatoon police force with Saddam's secret police, I think I could show that there is a measure of hyperbole in the comparison. If you can't do this for Israel, then the problem is not with those making the "sick attempts at moral equivalency".

[ 03 April 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is at war nonetheless it attempts to adhere to civil codes of behaviour. When there are issues, there are both civilian and governmental checks and balances including an independent judiciary, an indepenedent press, civil commissions etc. As well groups like gush shalom, Peace Now and others watch for abuses like hawks and have no fear of publicizing them (They know they wont have their hearts ripped out in the middle of the night)

So only those who have a built in hatred to Israel and its people would make such garbage comparisions. If the shoe fits dont be afraid to wear it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, just ask Rachel Corrie.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 03 April 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just checked out Gush Shalom's website and frankly, Mishei, they criticize where criticism is due, which is where hope lies.

They appear to be a wholly admirable organization and, as far as I can see, prove that Israelis as a people can be judged to a higher standard than either their State or terrorists. The difference between them and you is that they, like many Americans these days, love their country enough to risk improving it by building on its strengths, not playing to weakness. It's a pity that you don't appear to have that faith in the country you profess to love.

Anyway, it's now abundantly clear that your interest is not to discuss, but rather to confirm your fantasy that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. Sad.

I like this from the Gush Shalom website:

"In "The Devils Dictionary" of the American humorist Ambrose Bierce, published some 100 years ago, "coalition" is defined as (I quote from memory) the cooperation between two thieves who have their hands so deep in each others pockets that they cannot rob a third person separately.
"


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 03 April 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the quote I lifted from Gush Shalom appears verbatim on many sites and the definition for the word "coalition", ascribed to Ambrose Bierce, is actually his definition for the word "alliance". Finally, Stephen Harper is starting to make sense!
From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bierce disappeared in Mexico. No?
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 April 2003 05:30 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is at war nonetheless it attempts to adhere to civil codes of behaviour.

Ah, but if Israel is at war, then why is Israel disregarding the Geneva Convention? (Actions speak louder than words, Mishei)

So Israel cannot be at war. Then if Israel cannot be at war, then the actions of IDF soldiers may fairly be compared to the actions of soldiers in a banana republic - since they have regularly shown that it is possible to defy all sense of law and order and only in the most egregious cases do actions go punished.

Neither comparison, I fear, is very flattering.

Did an Israeli Prime Minister not inadvertently claim that they "controlled the United States"? This sort of loose talk is precisely what gets the right-wing ZOG conspiracy nuts all a-lather, Mishei, and you do yourself a disservice by adamantly refusing to examine the danger of appearances being created.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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