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Author Topic: The War: Secrets & Lies
Mycroft_
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posted 27 March 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Time to start keeping track of the misinformation that's been reported on the progress of the war. So far we've had
1) "shock and awe" - not so much a lie as a false hope by the Pentagon which has failed, the Iraqi administration and military have not collapsed upon viewing the Coalition light show over Baghdad.

2) Saddam and his sons injured and/or dead.

3) The regime's "command and control" has been severed from the rest of the country.

4) An entire Iraqi division has surrendered, including its general; (in fact they took off their uniforms, melted into Basra and became irregulars).

5) The people are welcoming us with open arms.

6) The war is "on schedule" - uttered by Pentagon and US admin whenever US troops are delayed by unexpected resistance or sandstorms.

7) There's an uprising in Basra:

quote:

Stratfor - Basra "uprising" is a lie

Sources: No Iraqi Uprising In Basra
Mar 26, 2003 - 2236 GMT

Stratfor's Iranian and Russian sources say that a widely reported uprising against the Iraqi government in Basra did not, in fact, occur. Arab TV channels are confirming this information, broadcasting video that shows streets are calm in Basra. News of the uprising was initially reported by a British journalist and then supported by British military officials.

However, some sources say the reports were part of the British command's psychological warfare operation, aimed at suppressing the morale of Iraqi forces and encouraging a real uprising in Basra and other Shia-populated areas of Iraq.

British Special Air Service units -- as well as MI6 operatives and agents -- have been reported inside Basra. But any efforts to provoke an uprising have failed so far, Stratfor's Russian sources say. As to reports that dozens of civilians in Basra came under mortar attack from Iraqi troops, Iranian and Arab sources say citizens gathered March 25 to express anger with coalition forces' bombing of civilian areas in the city -- not anger against the Iraqi government -- and that the mortar bombing did not occur.




(edited to fix formatting)

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 27 March 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, almost forgot, that plant discovered a few days ago that was supposed to be a chemical weapons factory.
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cynic
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posted 27 March 2003 05:04 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One more: Those dead American soldiers weren't executed, they were killed in action.

Edited to note that they're either pows or kias. Not both.

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: cynic ]


From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 27 March 2003 11:53 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think actually the list should be broken down in to ouright lies, deliberately fermented disinformtion as well as a list of unconfirmed reports:

Like this:

Outright Lies:

1) That Umm Qasr was captured on Friday.

2) That the 51st division and its commander surrendered, when no such thing occurred.

3) That the 18th Mechanized division surrendered, when no such thing occurred.

4) An uprising in Basra is denied by the supposed sponsors SCIRI.

Deliberately fermented disinformtion:

1) Saddam and his sons injured and/or dead.

2) The regime's "command and control" has been severed from the rest of the country.

3) The people are welcoming us with open arms.

4) The war is "on schedule" - uttered by Pentagon and US admin whenever US troops are delayed by unexpected resistance or sandstorms.

5) A chemical plant that was purported likely to be a chemical weapons factory, when in fact it wasn't

6) That dead US soldiers filmed by Al Jazeera were executed, when later it was revealed that they were combat casualties.

Unconfirmed reports

1) That Hussein ordered the execution of 60 of his officers over the weekene.

2) That Iraqi officers are regularly using summary execution as a means of maintaining battlefield discipline.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 27 March 2003 11:57 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a new unconfirmed report just in: PoWs: 'Al-Qaeda fighters in Iraq'

Doh! I should have seen that one coming. What is an Al Queda fighter? A muslim with a gun and a beard!


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pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 12:01 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It sounds to me like someone told his interrogators what they wanted to hear.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
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posted 28 March 2003 01:56 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
THE heartbroken sister of ambushed soldier Luke Allsopp insisted last night: "My brother was not executed."
Nina Allsopp hit out at "lies" surrounding his death.

Grieving Nina - 29 today - said: "We have been told by the Army that Luke died in action.

"The Colonel from his barracks came around to our house to tell us he was not executed. Luke's Land Rover was ambushed and he died instantly.


Story from The Mirror.

drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 28 March 2003 02:07 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Other lies:

Saddam has no chemical weapons or nerve agents
(If he did, then why are his troops equipped with gas masks and Atropine?)

Saddam is a modern day Hitler
(While there are some notable simularities between Hussein and Hitler, Hussein is actually more like Stalin)

France, Germany, Russia et. al are peace loving nations who are opposing the evil United States out of the goodness of their hearts
(The opposing governments have a lot of economic interests in Iraq. The only people who can conceivably have been opposing this war on moral grounds are civilians, NOT their governments. France, Germany, etc. are just as guilty as the US when it comes to killing Iraqis for economic gain. Only difference is whether or not Saddam is in power.)

The United States is acting unilaterally
(Coalition with 3 main members, MANY nations approving their actions)

Saddam Hussein should not be removed from power
(Utter horse $#it. I don't care what your views are, it is indisputable that he is a very bad man who should not govern Iraq. However, there are a wide range of views on HOW this should be done- with war or without it.)


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Moredreads
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posted 28 March 2003 02:08 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"I think I was living in a pipe dream thinking no one would get killed," Shirley Johnson, 79, a registered Republican from Davenport, Iowa, said in a follow-up interview. "But all of a sudden people were getting killed, and I was horrified."

Pam Wallman, 60, who lives in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., said, "I think the American public was duped into believing that our troops could just go in there, clean everything up and come home in 10 days."



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redshift
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posted 28 March 2003 03:18 AM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
does it strike anyone else as unusual that no one has played the terrorist card with this new disease epedemic?
From: cranbrook,bc | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 28 March 2003 03:46 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
does it strike anyone else as unusual that no one has played the terrorist card with this new disease epedemic?
Yeah, well as far as I know no Americans have been affected. Thus, it cannot be important.

From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 28 March 2003 04:20 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gir, you got your war, what are you bitching about? Just look at the pretty airplanes and those hot throbbing tanks penetrating deep into the birthplace of civilization. Isn't that enough for you?

And remember, if Tommy Franks says it's true, then it is true.

And if your commander-in-heat doesn't know the difference between Afganistan and Iraq, well, that's okay. It's all part of the plan.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
cynic
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posted 28 March 2003 01:46 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Saddam has no chemical weapons or nerve agents
(If he did, then why are his troops equipped with gas masks and Atropine?)

Were you dropped on your head as a child? The Americans have gas masks and Atropine too, does that mean they are planning on using chemical weapons?


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pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually the Americans have already used napalm.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 28 March 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Were you dropped on your head as a child? The Americans have gas masks and Atropine too, does that mean they are planning on using chemical weapons?

Two other considerations are that much of this protective gear was found stacked in a hospital -- hardly the right place to keep it, if chemical attacks are planned -- and that Atropine, also found in hospitals, has legitimate medical uses unrelated to protection against chemical warfare.

Furthermore, I saw an interesting fragment of a report on CNN this a.m., where the US reporter exhibited an Iraqi gas mask found at a former military base, now occupied by the Americans. It was remarkably similar to current US models, bore English lettering, and the cannister had an expiration date of June 1990. As evidence of chemical attacks to come, this was hardly convincing.

The Iraqis may well have, and be prepared to use, chemical and/or biological weapons. But nothing I've heard so far provides good evidence of it.

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 28 March 2003 05:56 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Iraqis may well have, and be prepared to use, chemical and/or biological weapons. But nothing I've heard so far provides good evidence of it.

Uhh .... ask the relatives of 5,000 Kurds ... or at least one of them.


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skdadl
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posted 28 March 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, fatcalf, I am so glad to read that you are, as am I, a supporter of a free and independent Kurdistan -- against the wishes, as you no doubt know, of the current U.S. administration, the current Iraqi administration, the current Turkish administration, the current Syrian administration, the current Iranian administration, and, I have little doubt (although I admit I haven't checked this one out) the current Azerbaijani administration ...

But what the hey, eh? When freedom is in question?

For a free and independent Kurdistan!!! I know you'll join me, fatcalf -- yes?

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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fatcalf
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posted 28 March 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I would agree that they have an inalienable right to be free (and not be gassed by Sadaam -- being gassed kind of cramps your style, freedom-wise).
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Tommy M
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posted 28 March 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for Tommy M     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The US is going in to liberate Iraq

quote:

"There is a difference between a war of liberation and a war of conquest. Liberation means Iraqis are at the forefront. Conquest means the invaders are in charge," said Hoshyar Zubari, an official of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, one of five groups recognized by the Bush Administration as allied opposition forces and one of two Kurdish organizations that have administered a 17,000-square-mile region of northern Iraq that has been protected by U.S. and British air patrols since the end of the 1991 Persian Gulf War

Dissidents Say Failure to Incorporate Iraqis Constitutes 'War of Conquest'


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CyberNomad
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posted 28 March 2003 08:07 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slim's fat lie:
quote:
Actually the Americans have already used napalm.

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WingNut
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posted 28 March 2003 08:10 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slim's fat lie? Tsk, tsk. CNN"s fat lie. One of their embedded reporters said it. Not Slim. He merely repeated it. Of course, I always said CNN was just one broadcast lie after another in service of US lies. Glad to see you have come on board.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 28 March 2003 08:14 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, prove it!
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clockwork
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posted 28 March 2003 08:15 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FRAGMENTED PICTURE. The problem in Gulf War II doesn't seem to be censorship. The embedded reporters traveling with coalition troops seem to have remarkable freedom. For instance, the "fragging" incident in which an American soldier attacked fellow soldiers with grenades, was reported as soon as it occured. Embedded reporters for both CNN and the Sydney Morning Herald, citing an officer in the field, reported that U.S. forces used napalm (which has been banned by the U.N. since 1980) in taking Safwan Hill near Basra. A Pentagon spokesman back in Washington adamantly denied that napalm was used.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/mar2003/nf20030326_9685_db070.htm


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pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Slim's fat lie

I see clockwork and WingNut have both beaten me to it. I can, and will if requested, supply links to both the sources mentioned in clockwork's post. In future a simple request for backup will suffice.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 March 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You could say please, CyberNomad.

I appreciate the thought you might have to apolgize to Slim probably sends you into convulsidons and the thought that the truly tusted, impartial CNN might be reporting LIES! must cause you some heartfelt consternation, but, see for yourself ( do hope you are sitting):

It is now estimated the hill was hit so badly by missiles, artillery and by the Air Force, that they shaved a couple of feet off it. And anything that was up there that was left after all the explosions was then hit with napalm. And that pretty much put an end to any Iraqi operations up on that hill.

P.S. In defence of CNN, as the reporter was embedded I think it is the truth. I think the Pentagon is lying.

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 28 March 2003 08:36 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And coroborated by the Sydney Morning Herald.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 28 March 2003 09:24 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the thread title, this seems like a good place to post this article.

Practice to Deceive from the Washington Monthly.

Subtitled: Chaos in the Middle East is not the Bush hawks' nightmare scenario--it's their plan.

quote:
In short, the administration is trying to roll the table--to use U.S. military force, or the threat of it, to reform or topple virtually every regime in the region, from foes like Syria to friends like Egypt, on the theory that it is the undemocratic nature of these regimes that ultimately breeds terrorism. So events that may seem negative--Hezbollah for the first time targeting American civilians; U.S. soldiers preparing for war with Syria--while unfortunate in themselves, are actually part of the hawks' broader agenda. Each crisis will draw U.S. forces further into the region and each countermove in turn will create problems that can only be fixed by still further American involvement, until democratic governments--or, failing that, U.S. troops--rule the entire Middle East.

There is a startling amount of deception in all this--of hawks deceiving the American people, and perhaps in some cases even themselves. While it's conceivable that bold American action could democratize the Middle East, so broad and radical an initiative could also bring chaos and bloodshed on a massive scale. That all too real possibility leads most establishment foreign policy hands, including many in the State Department, to view the Bush plan with alarm. Indeed, the hawks' record so far does not inspire confidence. Prior to the invasion, for instance, they predicted that if the United States simply announced its intention to act against Saddam regardless of how the United Nations voted, most of our allies, eager to be on our good side, would support us. Almost none did. Yet despite such grave miscalculations, the hawks push on with their sweeping new agenda.


The author is Josh Marshall who, I believe, was in favour of the invasion at one time. It seems he's changed his mind.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 March 2003 09:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is now estimated the hill was hit so badly by missiles, artillery and by the Air Force, that they shaved a couple of feet off it. And anything that was up there that was left after all the explosions was then hit with napalm. And that pretty much put an end to any Iraqi operations up on that hill.

Jeez.

Bombed, mortared, napalmed... did they throw a few tank rounds at it too?

Sure seems like the USA's armed forces are in the same "swatting a fly with a Buick" school as the IDF.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 29 March 2003 06:39 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BBC admits it falsely reported the fall of Umm Qasr 9 times.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 March 2003 08:01 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At least they admit it, anyhow.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
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posted 29 March 2003 08:59 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From article on the BBC:

quote:
"If we have used the word 'liberate' in our own journalism, as in 'such and such a place had been liberated by allied forces', that's a mistake," he said.

"That is the wrong language to use without evidence of Iraqi people feeling as though they have been liberated," Mr Damazer added.


A good start, anyway.

And...I'm no media expert...but isn't making nine admitted mistakes in a single week on a major news event a little excessive?...

drg


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WingNut
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posted 29 March 2003 10:22 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why hasn't CyberNomad apologized to Slim? Is he okay? I can't believe he just doesn't want to.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 29 March 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe he's been busy trying to get Rumsfeld on the phone to scold him for using napalm.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 March 2003 03:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or at least doing so in front of a reporter.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 30 March 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Almost forgot... Tariq Aziz flees the country or was shot dead trying to flee the country on the dat of the invasion. Another false report.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
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posted 30 March 2003 01:56 AM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Saddam is a modern day Hitler
(While there are some notable simularities between Hussein and Hitler, Hussein is actually more like Stalin)

Isnt Bush the one being referred to as a modern day Hitler? Not Saddam, I mean who has illusions of dominating the world ?

quote:
France, Germany, Russia et. al are peace loving nations who are opposing the evil United States out of the goodness of their hearts
(The opposing governments have a lot of economic interests in Iraq. The only people who can conceivably have been opposing this war on moral grounds are civilians, NOT their governments. France, Germany, etc. are just as guilty as the US when it comes to killing Iraqis for economic gain. Only difference is whether or not Saddam is in power.)
Of course the americans have never cozied up to Iraq or supplied them with weapons. As for the nations opposing the war doing it for economic reasons, what is the one reason the US has for this war? Where do all the other nations who oppose this war figure into your economic theory?

quote:
The United States is acting unilaterally
(Coalition with 3 main members, MANY nations approving their actions)
Which nations other than those offered bribes support this war? Or are involved in it other than Britian? And for all we know Britian was bribed as well ..

quote:
Saddam Hussein should not be removed from power
A whopping lie the US spreads - that all those opposed to this war are supporters of Saddam.

FYI Atropine is a stimulant used to kick start your heart - I dont believe its relevant in event of a chemical attack. It doesnt counteract the effects of chemicals or biological warfare. Its not an "anti-toxin" or whatever ..


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 30 March 2003 02:59 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, atropine is quite effective at combatting the effects of some (chemical) nerve agents, provided exposure is limited, according to a medical professional that is a close relation of mine.

More lies - Iraq firing Scuds at Kuwait...The accusation pops up every time the air-raid sirens ring in Kuwait City - all confirmed reports I have seen refer to Al-Samouds and/or Silkworms; all reports of Scuds are no more than, at best, speculation. (Under UN restrictions, it would be illegal for Iraq to possess Scuds, but not Silkworms; Al-Samouds are debatable at best)


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
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posted 30 March 2003 04:01 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
US Mistakes Slovenia For Partner In War

quote:
The United States has mistakenly named Slovenia as a partner in its war against Iraq.

Slovenian Prime Minister Anton Rop says the US even offered his country a share of the money budgeted for the conflict.

He says when asked for an explanation the US State Department admitted Slovenia was named in a document by mistake.

Slovenia now will not get the $7.5 million it was mistakenly offered in the US war budget.


drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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posted 30 March 2003 04:22 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The United States has mistakenly named Slovenia as a partner in its war against Iraq.

Maybe they thought no one would notice... such a small country and all... or perhaps the admin's decision makers have watched _Wag The Dog_ one too many times, and mistaken it for a documentary.

Ed. for formatting.

[ 30 March 2003: Message edited by: Flowers By Irene ]


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 30 March 2003 04:23 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One Basra resident who made it to the bridge, Raad Sead, 51, refused to believe that the Iraqis inside the city were firing on the refugees. "They are firing at the army, at the aggressors," he insisted.

A really brave piece of actual journalism by one British journalist who sortied beyond the British line and into Basra herself. Worth the read.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 30 March 2003 07:36 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BBC Complains About Pentagon Lies:

quote:
The BBC has become so concerned at false and misleading information being put out on the war against Iraq that it has stressed to its journalists that they must clearly attribute military sources.

According to the Guardian, BBC news chiefs met to discuss the problem after the broadcaster carried several reports later shown to be inaccurate. The misleading reports were all favourable to the US/UK forces and so their exposure has undermined the BBC’s claims to be providing unbiased coverage.

On Sunday March 23, British military sources claimed to have taken the port of Umm Qasr in southern Iraq. Three days later, they were still fighting to quell resistance.

The BBC then ran headlines with reports of the discovering of a chemical weapons factory in An Najaf, which was later dropped.

On Tuesday, March 25, the British news was filled with reports of an uprising under way in Basra, Iraq’s second largest city. Claims of the “popular uprising” were first made by British military forces, but were later found to be untrue.

On Wednesday, March 26, the British military were cited reporting that “up to 120 tanks” were leaving Basra. The convoy was later found to be just three-strong.

Numerous other examples can be cited, including the continuous downplaying of the extent of popular opposition to the US/UK invasion and the particularly cynical claim that the Iraqi regime was responsible for the missile attack on a Baghdad market that killed 17 civilians.



From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
david 40
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Babbler # 3900

posted 30 March 2003 08:39 PM      Profile for david 40     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am new to "rabble". I have several thoughts about media accuracy. Firstly, most journalists' personal experience in arms is zero, and their professional knowledge superficial; tracked artillery, infantry fighting vehicles and tanks have vastly different talents, yet are pretty much all called "tanks"; anybody with a scoped rifle is a "sniper", etc. Secondly, lots of people moving around rapidly lends confusion all by itself, and incomplete information is a fact of life when small-arms fire interferes with your interviewing style. So ya, it is quite right to be skeptical any individual reporter's work.
On the other hand, the coalition forces carry so many reporters, from so many different outlets, it is not credible to discount the sum of their reportage: It appears that a)coalition forces have achieved near-total air superiority. b)They have achieved one of greatest armour advances in the history of warfare. c)Regime casualties outnumber coalition casualties by a couple of orders of magnitude. d) coalition-caused non-combatant deaths are proportionally trivial (The very physical presence of reporters in Baghdad attests--whatever they might write--to their confidence in the coalition's will, and ability to minimize collateral damage).
One might not support the coalition's aims (I do), and should certainly weigh reports carefully, but "bogged down", "quagmire" and such are phrases useable only by those with wilful, ideological blindness, and without knowledge of warfare.
D

From: Surrey, B.c. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 30 March 2003 09:17 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One might not support the coalition's aims (I do), and should certainly weigh reports carefully, but "bogged down", "quagmire" and such are phrases useable only by those with wilful, ideological blindness, and without knowledge of warfare.

I grant you, it's too early to apply those terms to this war. And most of us have too little information to so apply them. But in previous wars, people with plenty of war knowledge, and without notable blindness, quite accurately spoke of bogging-down and quagmires. It might yet come to that.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 30 March 2003 09:23 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then how do you explain this:

quote:
Top Army officers in Iraq say they now believe that they effectively need to restart the war.

Friendly fire? Non-combat accidents? My ass. Tony Blair has already been caught distorting the reports of British soldiers being executed, why not on these other issues.

Its called propoganda. To insist that it is not in the arsenal of psychological weapons deployed by the US and Britian is to insist that they are stupid.

As for the press a great number of them are actually experienced war time journalists, with a great deal of technical expertise.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 30 March 2003 09:28 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(psst... Moredreads... you talkin' to me?)
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 March 2003 09:33 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and without knowledge of warfare.

'tis to dream ...

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 30 March 2003 09:39 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(psst... Moredreads... you talkin' to me?)

Nyet. You posted first.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 30 March 2003 09:41 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kewl. A guy gets confused, y'know?
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Elemennntal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3947

posted 31 March 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for Elemennntal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
--------------------------------------------------does it strike anyone else as unusual that no one has played the terrorist card with this new disease epedemic?
--------------------------------------------------

Yeah, well as far as I know no Americans have been affected. Thus, it cannot be important.

--------------------------------------------------

Hi, I've just joined the rabble!

Actually the first case off of Singapore Airlines was an American Businessman, who I believe died in Germany.

Guess that could be a reason why we heard about it.


From: Dubai, UAE --- yeah THERE. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 31 March 2003 12:59 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I watched CNN the first day of the scare and one of the anchors mentioned something about it possibly being a terrorist attack. I guess the CDC ruled that out rather quickly.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 31 March 2003 07:03 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Facts, some fiction and the reporting of war

Nice round up of some misfired reporting.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 31 March 2003 09:44 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Characters change, but in Washington there's always some band of eager exiles — the "real" Nicaraguans, Cubans, Chileans, Haitians or, in this case, Iraqis, who work closely with U.S. foreign policy interests.

And their information?

Well, here's a taste of the inside scoop on Iraq.

On Friday, deputy defence secretary Paul Wolfowitz, leading administration hawk, trotted out, among others, Emad Dhia to meet with reporters in the National Press Building. Dhia is a founder of the grandly named Iraqi Forum for Democracy, whose members, like Miami Cubans, think about divvying up real estate in post-war Iraq.

"I heard a story yesterday about a lady who tried to greet the U.S. forces," Dhia told foreign journalists at the briefing, arranged by the State Department.

"They snatched her and killed her just because she greeted the U.S. forces."

Yup, that's it. He heard a story.

It's a story that went right to the top.

"An Iraqi woman was hanged for waving at coalition troops," U.S. President George W. Bush told the nation yesterday in his weekly radio address.

Dhia went further.

"Try to realize that if you have a gun pointed at your head, you're not going to go out and greet the U.S. forces until that gun is gone," he said. "Then, you're going to go right out and welcome the U.S. forces."

Honest, the parades are just around the corner.


From one of Canada's best print reporters:
Inside my CIA diaries


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3214

posted 31 March 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did the Soviets, at their very worst, ever engage in more fantastic propaganda?

drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 April 2003 04:15 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
False Claims Litter Iraq Conflict -- Reuters
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 April 2003 04:16 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
British backtrack over general

quote:
"What they said was not true," Tawfic said. "I am still here. Please, do not delay me. I want to go back to my unit to continue the fight."

Tawfic described a "fierce battle" on the outskirts of Abu Khassib, a village near Basra in southern Iraq.

"Next to us were [Baath] party fighters, Fedayeen Saddam, and tribesmen. We destroyed five tanks and I, personally, saw four British soldiers dead," Tawfic told Al-Jazeera.


[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 April 2003 04:22 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Video Suggests U.S. Hit Useless Decoys - Analyst

quote:
DOHA (Reuters) - Iraqi aircraft destroyed by U.S. bombs in video shown on Monday at the daily U.S. briefing on the Iraq war looked like useless old decoys, British military analyst Paul Beaver said.

"I'm surprised that they would put this up on television when, to the trained eye, these were at least two or three generations old," said the former publisher of Jane's Defense Weekly.



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 April 2003 05:16 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Political sloganeering becomes terror

quote:
OUTSKIRTS OF BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraqi civilians fleeing the besieged city of Basra said on Tuesday they faced heavy pressure from members of President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s Baath party not to rise up against him.

"The Baath party has been going around Basra and using megaphones to warn us that we had better join the war effort," an Iraqi resident, who declined to give his name, told a Reuters correspondent at an army checkpoint on the outskirts of Basra.

"They've told us we should not try to rebel against the government," he said.


Those evil men, using megaphones and making speeches!


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3285

posted 01 April 2003 07:17 PM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, well as far as I know no Americans have been affected. Thus, it cannot be important.
It is interesting that it is so prevelant here and not there. There are more flights into the US from Asia than there are landing in Canada. Kind of makes you wonder doesnt it? Maybe we are guinea pigs for US bilogical warfare? or does that smack of too much paranoia?

From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 April 2003 08:26 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Proved: Deaths in Iraqi marketplace were caused by American missile

quote:
Nick Cook, of Jane's Defence Weekly, said: "The problem with Harms is that they can be seduced away from their targets by any sort of curious transmission. They are meant to have corrected that but there have been problems in the past."


[ 01 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 01 April 2003 10:37 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An extensive catalogue of lies in a fun format.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Elemennntal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3947

posted 02 April 2003 03:22 AM      Profile for Elemennntal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe we are guinea pigs for US bilogical warfare? or does that smack of too much paranoia?

Paranoia? In America?

Naturally.

But then, who is to say when Americans are guinea pigs and not? Lots of people complain of biological testing going on in the friendly skies, suspicious contrails websites are everywhere.

Sometimes a virus immune to antibiotics because of overuse of said antibiotics is just a virus immune, etc, etc.


From: Dubai, UAE --- yeah THERE. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 April 2003 07:10 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
SARS is in the US too, apparently. Didn't I see someone post in the other thread that something like 56 people in the US are thought to have symptoms of it?

Ah, google is a wonderful thing.
According to this source, there are about 70 suspected cases but it's not spreading fast.

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 02 April 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

American Newspeak: Empire Appreciation month Word Collisions
by Wayne Grytting

Military Genius on Parade

There was fierce competition among Bush Administration officials to see who could most accurately predict the length of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Here are the nominees: 1. "Support for Saddam ... will collapse after the first whiff of gunpowder," -- Pentagon advisor Richard Perle 2. "An explosion of joy will greet our soldiers." -- US Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. 3. "I believe demolishing Hussein's military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk." -- Pentagon advisor Kenneth Adelman. 4. "I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators I think the regular army will not fight." V-P Dick Cheney. We can't emphasize enough the dangers of abusing hallucinogenic drugs.

Communication Breakdown

As people "embedded" in American culture, it's difficult to comprehend how Iraqis could possibly resist their own liberation. The answer may lie in a few overlooked cultural differences. For example, when American soldiers tore down the Iraqi flag and hoisted the Stars and Stripes over the port of Umm Qasr, many Iraqis failed to appreciate that this was our way of saying, "We've come to liberate you." A similar misunderstanding may have occurred when the 101st Airborne Division named two of its main outposts in the desert "Forward Operating Base Exxon" and "Forward Operating Base Shell." Fortunately, neither name implies we are there at the behest of our oil companies, says the Pentagon . (See the Guardian 3/28/03)

Who Let Bush off the Leash Dept.?

While scolding the UN, President Bush pointed to the example of the UN's inaction in the face of the genocide that claimed 800,000 lives in Rwanda in the 1990s. "The UN," he said, "must mean something. Remember Rwanda or Kosovo. The UN didn't do its job." Advisors reportedly had to draw straws to see who would tell the President that it was the U.S who had led the opposition to intervention and that Bush himself was on record as opposed to intervening where US "vital interests" were not at stake.

"All Power to the Imagination"

While our nation campaigned against weapons of mass destruction in the hands of others, the Pentagon asked for the lifting of the ban on our development of small nuclear weapons. These weapons may be needed because of the existence of small countries. (We don't want to take out adjacent nations when making those surgical strikes.) Linton Brooks, head of the National Nuclear Security Administration, defended the move with these words of wisdom: "Anything that inhibits thinking about the future, should be looked at skeptically." And if you can't think outside the box, blow it up.

Benchmarks in Diversity

All the major networks have refused to air anti-war ads. Our award for the best explanation for banning such non-commercial views goes to CBS. Their spokesperson, vice-president Martin Franks put it succinctly: "On the CBS television network," he said, "we think that informed discussion comes from our news programming." Why confuse people with too many points of view?

Soundbites

The Bush Administration was pleased to announce that both Eritrea and the Solomon Islands had joined the "Coalition of the willing." The question on everybody's mind: "When will Liechtenstein join the cause?... A rumor had it that Iraqi army officers trained for possible surrenders by watching videotapes of U.S. Democratic party leaders. This was not true ...The U.S.Air Force furthered the cause of freedom in Iraq by dropping leaflets on its citizens. It's also been suggested they drop copies of the USA Patriot Act. Give them a dose of reality.

______________________________
Wayne Grytting is the author of American Newspeak:The Mangling of Meaning for Power and Profit. Subscribe our say nice things about the author by e-mailing wgrytt@scn.org . More Newspeak can be found at scn.org/newspeak


[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 April 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that this can go here now: Driver of van on forced suicide mission?

quote:
A Shiite Muslim cleric in Iraq claims the driver of the van at a U.S. checkpoint in which at least seven women and children were killed was forced to disobey the soldiers' orders to stop, thereby causing the civilian deaths, reports Fox News Channel.

Mohammed Barkir Al-Mohari said in a translated videotape that the incident outside Najaf in southern Iraq on Monday was purposely set up to give Saddam's regime grist for criticizing the United States.



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 April 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bush's Ever Shifting Absolutes

quote:
A puzzled America watches now as the Bush imperial public-relations samurai try to behead the notion that they were the mongers who planted the vision of a quick and practically painless war. The recorded evidence doesn't help their case.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wankity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3723

posted 02 April 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for Wankity        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
2) That Iraqi officers are regularly using summary execution as a means of maintaining battlefield discipline.

web page

quote:
Two fugitives have told allied forces of atrocities committed by Saddam loyalists. They said men were being summarily executed if they refused to take up arms against the British forces.

From: Saskabush | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 02 April 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Those evil men, using megaphones and making speeches!

Spatters of what appeared to be blood stained the walls of the cells. One room was believed to be where electric shock torture was carried out - there was a long live cable lead and two rubber tyres for the torturer to stand on to insulate his own feet.

Those evil men! Obviously the electrical lead was to jump start the car used to broadcast those political messages (murderous sanctions have left Iraq with quite a shortage of car batteries you realize) and the tires were just spares.

Those evil men, trying to keep their vehicles in running order!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 April 2003 10:14 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The original article was far shorter. Yahoo updates its articles regularly, and the new testimonies were added later.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 April 2003 10:21 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is noe excuse for any of these things, but frankly, Sheep, if the US was directly under attack and enemy forces were moving up to from Richmond toward Washington, I doubt the US govenrments reaction would be much different.

Wartime is war time, and that stuff happens.

The US government is allowed by its consitution to conscript soldiers at a time of national emergency, such as an invasion by a foreign power. Persons so conscripted immediatly come under military law, and are officially part of the army even if they do not report for enrollment. Not reporting is an act of desertion.

US military law allows for the execution of soldier who desert.

What is reallly relvant is the level of forced enrollment, I suggest that their is a good deal of popular resistance mixed in wiht coercion, forces conscriptions and threats and some executions to set an example.

Another thing: Isn't the US using threat of force, and applied force to coerce Iraqis into desertion?

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Elemennntal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3947

posted 03 April 2003 06:29 AM      Profile for Elemennntal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WHO on SARS

quote:
Q :Are there any positive developments ?

A : A significant number of cases in Viet Nam, as a result of good supportive care, have improved. In addition, the global surveillance system has proven to be a very sensitive and rapid means of reporting of suspected cases. Health authorities around the world are now alert to the risk of SARS. Information on cases compiled over the last three weeks is expected to shed new light on the behaviour of this disease. Secondary outbreaks have to date been avoided since global surveillance was put in place and rapid isolation of cases undertaken.



From: Dubai, UAE --- yeah THERE. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 03 April 2003 08:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Two fugitives have told allied forces of atrocities committed by Saddam loyalists. They said men were being summarily executed if they refused to take up arms against the British forces.

This is awful, I agree, and I'd be up in arms about it if I heard about it in the US or Canada.

However, during a time of war, don't most countries consider it treasonous to refuse to take up arms if invaded or if you are conscripted? Isn't the penalty for treason usually death? I think that's wrong, but I don't think it's unheard of.

I seem to remember reading something about WWII, and how there were quite a few soldiers who, unable to fight because they were traumatized or mentally ill, were shot by their comrades because they were a liability. (I could be wrong about this, btw - I'm no expert on the world wars, and all I remember is reading about it on babble somewhere a long while back.)

Seems to me that in Iraq, where people are being encouraged by the enemy invaders not only not to fight, but to rise up against their leadership, that not only would people who refuse to fight be considered to be "in the way" but also possible collaborators with the enemy.

I mean, what did the US expect - that Iraqis would just say, "Oh well, if you want to fight with the enemy then I guess that's just a personal choice of yours." Would the US accept that as an excuse for treason? I don't think so.

[ 03 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 03 April 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl makes this point:
quote:
Oh, fatcalf, I am so glad to read that you are, as am I, a supporter of a free and independent Kurdistan -- against the wishes, as you no doubt know, of the current U.S. administration.

I would add that, in his televised address announcing that "Shock and Awe" had begun, Bush guaranteed that Iraq would be made "free"; he also GUARANTEED that Iraq would remain united.

Since I have no doubt that majority opinion in Kurdistan favours an independent country, it follows that the US/GB intends to stifle the ability of Kurds to decide their fate democratically.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 03 April 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Troops push within sight of Baghdad skyline

So what happened to that "line around Baghdad" which the Pentagon claimed would trigger a chemical weapons attack if crossed?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 03 April 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since I have no doubt that majority opinion in Kurdistan favours an independent country, it follows that the US/GB intends to stifle the ability of Kurds to decide their fate democratically

Carving up an existing middle eastern country to provide a homeland for a historically repressed and persecuted ethnic group has worked wonders in the past. I mean, look at Israel.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy M
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2183

posted 03 April 2003 02:01 PM      Profile for Tommy M     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Carving up an existing middle eastern country to provide a homeland for a historically repressed and persecuted ethnic group has worked wonders in the past. I mean, look at Israel.

And randomly defining borders to encompass diferent ethnic groups works wonders too, look at the former Yugoslavia


From: Here | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 03 April 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah. Kurdistan and Israel are comparable. Sure.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 03 April 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what happened to that "line around Baghdad" which the Pentagon claimed would trigger a chemical weapons attack if crossed?

As you and I both know it was another kind of line.

a) Bad PR for Saddam

b) Why use gas against an army completely prepared for it?

Ergo: The limited military advantage is completely cancelled out by the PR backlash.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 03 April 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would add that, in his televised address announcing that "Shock and Awe" had begun, Bush guaranteed that Iraq would be made "free"; he also GUARANTEED that Iraq would remain united.

I just love MNFTIU sometimes.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 08 April 2003 07:57 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All the US news channels are reporting that Saddam is "probably dead" or that we "may never know", while the BBC is reporting that according to *British* security sources, Saddam left the restaurant minutes before the strike.

Looks like the US is playing the same game they did after the first direct attempt at Saddam Hussein at the beginning of the war, try to convince as many people as they could that he is probably dead in hopes of causing support to melt away and the US media is going along immediately. What other explanation could there be for all US media channels refusing to report a credible BBC report that dares raise doubt that Saddam is dead?

[ 08 April 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 08 April 2003 08:06 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is advantageous at this time to float this story again in the hopes that it will believed as Iraqi TV and radio are now of the air.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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