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Author Topic: PFLP Statement on the war.
Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 08:59 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those Arab states from whose territory the aggression was launched are complete participants in the conspiracy against Iraq and the Arab Nation.

We must work to form an Arab and World-wide Front to oppose the continuing aggression against Iraq and Palestine.

For the fourth consecutive day American-British-Zionist aggression continues against the Iraq of civilization, the Iraq of glory, honor, and defiance, which will turn the pure earth into a graveyard for the savage invaders together with their plans and projects aimed at seizing control of the region and the whole world.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine salutes the steadfastness of Iraq, its leaders, its intrepid army, and its heroic people. At this decisive, historic juncture, the PFLP calls on the Arab states to shoulder their responsibility and stop this aggression and these crimes that are being committed before the eyes and ears of the whole world.

The Arab states from whose territory the aggression has been launched and is still being launched are complete participants in the conspiracy against Iraq, the Arab Nation, and the Islamic world community.

The heroic resistance that the people of Palestine, Lebanon, and Iraq have put up and are continuing to put up to the invaders and aggressors must be transformed into comprehensive resistance.

We must work for the formation of an Arab and world-wide resistance front to confront the aggressors, the blood suckers of humanity.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Press Office
23 March 2003.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 09:12 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Arab states from whose territory the aggression has been launched and is still being launched are complete participants in the conspiracy against Iraq, the Arab Nation, and the Islamic world community.

Holy shit -- do you really believe this stuff?


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Mishei
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posted 25 March 2003 09:31 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
American-British-Zionist aggression
Stupid stupid me!!! How did I miss this of course it's those damn Jews . They have driven the Americans and Brits to do their bidding again. How the hell did I miss it???!!!

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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Yes,ZOG strikes again.
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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 09:53 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually it isn't ZOG because, as you will note, the PFLP understands the difference between being a Zionist and being Jewish, something that Sharon would like you to forget. Hamas would specifiy Jewish, while the PFLP specifies Zionist, a political ideology held by a decreasing number of Jewish people.
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Moses
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posted 25 March 2003 09:54 PM      Profile for Moses     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is a major supporter of this war. It stands to gain immensely in terms of Iraq's fresh water supplies, US occupation, and oil. Richard Perle consulted the Israeli government as far back as '98 on the advantages of taking Iraq.
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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads -- the article you posted talks of "the Arab Nation". What the heck is that? How would one define "the Arab Nation", anyway?
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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:01 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon was encouraging Bush to go for Iran after he has polished off the Iraqis, just yeasterday. Also, the Jeruasalem Post is qouting Palestinian sources that say that US marines are being trained by the IDF is Jenin.
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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 10:03 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Again, what is an "Arab Nation"?
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Justice
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posted 25 March 2003 10:04 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When will once and for all people admit this war isn't about Oil? If Bush wanted the Oil he'd lift his hand sanctions on Iraq would be gone Oil be flowing from our noses and The people of Iraq would still be suffering all the same.

The PFLP is a terrorist organization they don't differentiate between Soldiers and civilians.

Talk about rationalizing and being apologetic. True the American bombs don’t differentiate between civilians and terrorist but the people behind make an effort if you do a close comparison and weight all the Data proportionally you’ll see that.

Anyways it’s a violation of the Geneva Convention to be armed and not wear a uniform it’s often pretty hard to differentiate terrorist and civilians.

Obviously the marines are trained by the IDF the IDF has alot of experince in Urban warefare and protecting civilians from harm.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Moredreads -- the article you posted talks of "the Arab Nation". What the heck is that? How would one define "the Arab Nation", anyway?

First of all it is not an article, it is press release. The Arab nation is an idea that most recently was popularized with effect by Nasser. Hussein and Arafat are probably two of the last survivors of particular ideological strain. I think in the weeks to come we will see more of this kind of idea being reborn:

Arab states line up behind Iraq

quote:
The Arab League ministers meeting in Cairo passed a resolution declaring the war on Iraq a "violation of the United Nations Charter" and a "threat to world peace".

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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The PFLP is a terrorist organization they don't differentiate between Soldiers and civilians.

They do in fact.

quote:
Anyways it’s a violation of the Geneva Convention to be armed and not wear a uniform it’s often pretty hard to differentiate terrorist and civilians.

Wrong. The Geneva convention specificaly makes provisions for irregular soldiers.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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CyberNomad
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posted 25 March 2003 10:08 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For the fourth consecutive day American-British-Zionist aggression continues against the Iraq of civilization, the Iraq of glory, honor, and defiance, which will turn the pure earth into a graveyard for the savage invaders together with their plans and projects aimed at seizing control of the region and the whole world.


A very modest lot, no?

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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:09 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know that Rabble pays me to keep all you guys on one thread so other people can go about there business undisturbed.
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Justice
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posted 25 March 2003 10:10 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In Iran there is a good possibility even better than Iraq that if we help the people there they will up rise against the military regime. There is a democracy in place but it almost has no power because the Ayatollah is in control of the army.

Changed that around and Democracy is easy many times the student and even leaders with in the government tried to stand up against the ayatollah but every time we stand by and watch as they get tortured and thrown in prison sometimes even butchered.


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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 10:12 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:16 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In Iran there is a good possibility even better than Iraq that if we help the people there they will up rise against the military regime. There is a democracy in place but it almost has no power because the Ayatollah is in control of the army.

You really are completely out of your water. Again!


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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 10:18 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
What is the frequency, Kenneth....

quote:
You really are completely out of your water. Again!

From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 25 March 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PFLP Human Rigths Watch

The only mention about Irregular soldiers in the Geneva Convention is that if they are captured they deserve the same treatment as POW's but they are still obligated to wear uniforms.


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Mishei
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posted 25 March 2003 10:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads, let me understand this, do you support this press release? Who else is of the opinion that the USA and Great Britain are involved in this war because of the "Zionist" influence?

Oh and BTW Moredreads the vast majority of Jews world wide are Zionists whether you like it or not.


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DrConway
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posted 25 March 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was just about to post a reply reminding you all that Mishei has defined good Jews to be Zionists, but he beat me to the punch.

But at least he does not define a "good Jew" only based on Zionism, as he has agreed with me that even the most committed Zionist, should he commit crimes, is not a good Jew.


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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:49 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where does it say that it is a Zionist controlled conspiracy?

I know that reading comprehension is low among the ideologically challenged, but I see nothing of the sort in this press release. It talks of an alliance of agressors, Zionists among them. It also includes: "the Arab states from whose territory the aggression has been launched and is still being launched are complete participants in the conspiracy against Iraq, the Arab Nation, and the Islamic world community."

Perhaps if you actually bothered to read what Arab organizations such as the PFLP are saying, then you would be making your own little step toward bringing a just peace to Arabs and Israelis.

A majority of Jews may still support the Israel experiment, in the manner in which it is constucted today, but the movement has certianly reached its zenith, as anyone who looks closely at Israeli deomgraphics will tell you.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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fatcalf
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posted 25 March 2003 10:52 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Those Arab states from whose territory the aggression was launched are complete participants in the conspiracy against Iraq and the Arab Nation.
What is this "Arab Nation" -- sounds a bit like the Aryan Nation.

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Mishei
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posted 25 March 2003 10:55 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But at least he does not define a "good Jew" only based on Zionism, as he has agreed with me that even the most committed Zionist, should he commit crimes, is not a good Jew.


quote:
A majority of Jews may still support the Israel experiment
You see MD this is just your problem, Israel IS REAL...it is no experiment and as long as you and others keep thinking this way there will never be peace

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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:55 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some men are born in mediocrity, others strive for it, while some have it thrust upon them. All three are the true in your case Fatcalf.
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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 10:58 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh yes Mishei I know Israel is real, nor do I wish to see it end. But that is not the problem, it is the way Israel exists that is the problem, and that is why more and more Jews reject it.
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Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 11:35 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now Justice, lets look at your HRW report... in the first paragraph it says:

quote:
Four Palestinian militant organizations have been responsible for almost all of the suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians during the current uprising: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have pursued suicide bombings against civilians since the 1990s. The al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the PFLP began carrying out such attacks in 2002.

What do we see? We see that the PFLP and Al Aqsa only began suicide bombing after the Israel began its campaign of so called targetted killings. Actions that resulted in large numbers of unwarnted civilian deaths. The PFLP became far more militant and less discriminating as a result of the fact that the IDF had also become less discriminating. Both the PFLP and PLO had clearly stated policies against such prior to that point.

One of the people who was assassinated by the IDF in 2001 was the leader of the PFLP who opposed the targetting of civilians as a policy of the organization. He was replaced by a much more militant and less descriminating individual.

Some people speculate that this result was anticipated by the IDF and Sharon and that the assasination of the more moderate leader was an intentional plan to exacibate tension, so that the IDF could be justified in reinforcing and expanding its power in the occupied territories. Others think it was just stupid.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 12:42 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So it's O.K. for them to kill civilians just because the IDF killed a Millitary Leader right???

And should I assume that you admit you were wrong about the Geneva convention or do you have someother "Justifable" Excuse?


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 06:39 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1) He was not a military leader, he was the general secretary of the organization. The killing broke an age old tacit agreement between Israel and Palestinians, not to target leadership.

2) I did not say it was ok, I said the change in policy was the direct result of the assassination of the leader who opposed the policy of targeting civilians because the leader who took over supported the present policy. And on that basis question the policy of assassination of that individual.

quote:
In August 2001, Mustafa was killed by an Israel missile attack on his West bank office.242 He was succeeded by Ahmad Sa'adat as secretary-general and `Abd al-Rahim Malluh as deputy secretary-general.

3) The decision to take up suicide bombings as a tactic, came well after Israel began it's campaing of targeted killings, attacks on PA security people and its public offices -- attacks that resulted in significant collateral damage. Killings that are hardly more targeted than suicide attack in that when you launch a rocket (from and Apache) at a car stopped a stop light many others besides the 'target' are killed.

The overall point being made is that Israel played at least an equal, if not greater role, in escalating the level of violence as an organization such as the PFLP.

For nearly a year after the present Intifada began and Israel began reoccupying the West Bank and killing Palestinian civilians, the secular left organization such as Fatah and the PFLP actively opposed the policy of targeting civilians.

quote:
And should I assume that you admit you were wrong about the Geneva convention or do you have someother "Justifable" Excuse?

If I were to accept your interpretation of the Geneva convention I would have to conclude that French and Yugoslav resistance fighters, during WW2, were war criminals because they didn't wear uniforms in combat. Any other questions?

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 10:16 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did the French or Yugoslav Resistance Mix with civilians. Oh wait it didn't really matter then the army they were fighting was bombing the Crap out of everyone anyways. How can you compare? I certainly doubt the they fired from in between civilian protests. Using Guerrilla warfare doesn't mean you have to hide amongst civilians or target civilians.

I always give more blame to the guy who gave the order and committed the crime, Unless he/she is mentally insane. The guy who negligently provoked might guilty to but that’s a completely different crime and is not equal to the actually committing the crime.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 01:13 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did the French or Yugoslav Resistance Mix with civilians.

They were civilians.

quote:
Oh wait it didn't really matter then the army they were fighting was bombing the Crap out of everyone anyways. How can you compare?

The only people doing any bombing in France during the occupation were the British and the Americans. In fact the IDF is bombing the crap out of everything in the WB. Have you seen any of the pictures?

But that is not the point of this. The point is that you have tried to define the illegality of Palestinian resistance fighters by appealing to a specific code of the Geneva convention in regards to uniform. Not a discussion about tactics used.

Either wearing a uniform is mandatory for all soldiers or it is not, pick one.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While i offer no apology and still believe that MD, Skdadl and others were more prepared to see me as wrong and with dark even evil intentions, due to my positions on Israel, on honest reflection I do accept the need to properly correct the record.

quote:
Oh yes Mishei I know Israel is real, nor do I wish to see it end. But that is not the problem, it is the way Israel exists that is the problem, and that is why more and more Jews reject it.

Really, can you give me some statistics here. MD as usual engaging in BS

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 03:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God damn, Mishei, but that is THE most appallingly crooked misquote I have ever ever seen on this site!

Folks, for your information, MD originally wrote:

quote:
it is the way Israel exists that is the problem,

SHAME, MISHEI, SHAME!!!!

This is babble. Respect it. Respect us. Don't try this kind of crap on us.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 03:50 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice editing there Mishei, leave no sleezy debating tactic untouched. Correct it and appologize please. For the record I said:

quote:
I know Israel is real, nor do I wish to see it end. But that is not the problem, it is the way Israel exists that is the problem, and that is why more and more Jews reject it.

It is very similar to the manner in which you have misquoted the press release that I began this thread with, by trying to insinuate that it was talking about a Jewish conspiracy. You can't play this game with me, my names not Rubble.

I see that you are fond of an little known organization called honestreporting.com. Do you work for them?

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl and MD please, please LEARN TO READ!!!!! I did not comment on anything other than your suggestion that "more and more Jews reject it," suggesting that Jews reject exactly what you have stated "the Israeli experiment". I wanted only to know where you get your numbers MD. There was absolutely no intention of misrepresentation (although you both are sooo quick to pronounce me guilty). Jeeze if I were as sneeky as you intimate I would use a quote from some obscure publication to misrepresent not someting MD posted just above my reply!!

Skdadl relax, take a nap dont look for things that are not there. You have enough problems with me without having to create extra "nareshkite" (Yiddisish for junk)


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BS. Correct it an appologize.
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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm waiting.
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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads

Your the one who isn't choosing you were trying to Justify them.

I was trying to show you that there is nothing you can do to Justify them.

And believe me I've seen the sites up close and personal. The Israelis would have to go in and bomb if they would not be hiding in the cities or amongst civilians the responsiblity for the increase fatality lies way more on their side then the Israeli. I'm not saying everytime the Israeli's us up most precautions but they do a way better job then the Palistinains no matter what you say.

If the Israelis really didn't care. You know they have enough fire power to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Both sides have a responsiblity for keeping international law stop trying to say it's all Israel fault. Note I never said they weren't human or didn't deserve to be treated humanily but shouldn't we at least demand the minimum form them? As they do from the Israeli's it's all way out of proportion. Like I said before I can bring you many many countries that are a hundred times worse. The is no other conclusion that their real intent is to demoralize Israel and destroy them anyway they can they have still not proven that there intent is otherwise. I'm not making generalzations when I say they I don't mean every Palistinain I'm talking about the goverment and the terorrist orginizations their is nothing you can do to convince me that their disrespect for international law is Justified. I don't Justify Israels. So stop trying to Justify theirs.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And believe me I've seen the sites up close and personal. The Israelis would have to go in and bomb if they would not be hiding in the cities or amongst civilians the responsiblity for the increase fatality lies way more on their side then the Israeli. I'm not saying everytime the Israeli's us up most precautions but they do a way better job then the Palistinains no matter what you say.

So the fact that French resistance fighters, or the Jewish resistance in Warsaw lived within the civilian poulation justifies reprisals against the civilian population by the Germans.


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 04:33 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BS. Correct it an appologize.

quote:
I'm waiting.

You can both wait until the cows come home. I have explained myselfe adequately. If you want to call me liar go ahead, it should ably demonstrate how blinded you are by your own positions.

Either way you will receive no apology from me.


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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 04:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The record thus speaks for itself.

I assume that others who engage Mishei in debate will be well warned by that little manoeuvre above.


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Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 04:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, that quote looks to me like a very deliberate misquote to make it look like Moredreads said something he didn't. You're a smart guy - I'm sure you see how different Moredreads' comment was from your selectively edited one.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no reason for me to call you a liar, as it is obvious from reading the misquote. Your refusal to apologize is only more evidence that the 'error' is intentional, as was the deliberate misreading of the PFLP press release, to insinuate that it was racist attack on Jews, which it is not.
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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
.
quote:
Mishei, that quote looks to me like a very deliberate misquote to make it look like Moredreads said something he didn't. You're a smart guy - I'm sure you see how different Moredreads' comment was from your selectively edited one.


Michelle:

I already posted that such was not my intention and explained it fully. I will not apologize for something I did not do. For the record I once again post my position. Please note where I wrote "]There was absolutely no intention of misrepresentation "

[QUOTE] I did not comment on anything other than your suggestion that "more and more Jews reject it," suggesting that Jews reject exactly what you have stated "the Israeli experiment". I wanted only to know where you get your numbers MD. There was absolutely no intention of misrepresentation (although you both are sooo quick to pronounce me guilty). Jeeze if I were as sneeky as you intimate I would use a quote from some obscure publication to misrepresent not someting MD posted just above my reply!! [/QUOTE


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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Mishei had wanted to distort Moredreads' argument, don't you think he would have drawn attention to that claim? He only asked for numbers, so I'm guessing that he simply clipped off the part of the sentence that mattered to him ("more and more Jews," etc.) and didn't bother paying attention to the few words that preceded it. You guys have got to chill out.

What I'm wondering about is how Moredreads can explain his earlier insistence that the PFLP "do in fact" differentiate between soldiers and civilians, and his later admission that they don't -- though it's the IDF's fault. Which is it?

I'm actually inclined to believe his earlier claim that PFLP suicide bombers go to shopping malls because they "do in fact" differentiate between soldiers and civilians. That is, they differentiate between the two... then they specifically target civilians.


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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, dearest, had you made an innocent mistake with such implications, would you not by now have been back to correct it, and apologized for so disturbing us all on our accustomed peaceful rounds?

Yes, Whazzup?, dearest: I believe that you would.

But it still appears, in that bald little post of Mishei's up above, that MD said:

quote:
Israel exists that is the problem,

And he didn't.


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did. You just refuse to acknowledge it.

quote:
Michelle:

I already posted that such was not my intention and explained it fully. I will not apologize for something I did not do. For the record I once again post my position. Please note where I wrote "]There was absolutely no intention of misrepresentation "

[QUOTE] I did not comment on anything other than your suggestion that "more and more Jews reject it," suggesting that Jews reject exactly what you have stated "the Israeli experiment". I wanted only to know where you get your numbers MD. There was absolutely no intention of misrepresentation (although you both are sooo quick to pronounce me guilty). Jeeze if I were as sneeky as you intimate I would use a quote from some obscure publication to misrepresent not someting MD posted just above my reply!! [/QUOTE



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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, we have asked you before to read for comprehension.

"He didn't," in my last post, clearly refers to MD, not to you.

Your original, damning, selectively edited quote remains unchanged.

You like this, don't you, Mishei?


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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see any "implication" in the statement. It's a nonsensical fragment, for one thing. It also has nothing to do with the question that follows.

When Moredreads wrote that "it is the way Israel exists that is the problem, and that is why more and more Jews reject it," I suspect he intended that the final "it" referred to the way Israel exists. I suspect Mishei believed the final "it" referred to Israel itself. Both interpretations make sense.


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Wazzup I could not have put it better myselfe. And Skdadl, no I do not like being accused of something I did not do. I told you what my intentions were I explained it fully and you reject it. So be it but I hold to my position. I do not lie.
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Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, well everyone knows what Moredreads said and meant, and Mishei has explained himself, that he didn't mean to misrepresent Moredreads, so let's just let it be over.
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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys make me appreciate my husband so much all over again.
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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You guys make me appreciate my husband so much all over again.
As you make me appreciate my wife

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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sooo....

Back to the topic.

Does the PFLP distinguish between soldier and civilian?

And as an aside, should we be supporting a statement that offers a "salute" to Iraq's "leaders"?


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Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys are all REMINDING me of my husband!

er...


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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lady Astor (I think) to Churchill: Sir, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your coffee.

Churchill: Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it.

Sorry -- I can never resist the classics, even when they don't work in my favour.

I think the record above works in my favour.

For the record, I would never have presumed to post on the PFLP, about which I know far too little. But I can't stand thinking that babble is being policed, and all I can think of to do in our defence is to police the bleeding police back.


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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And to answer Mishei's question:
quote:
Who else is of the opinion that the USA and Great Britain are involved in this war because of the "Zionist" influence?

Pat Buchanan, Justin Raimondo, Lyndon LaRouche, just to name a few off the top of my head.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup's questions are relvant and fine.

However, the quote remains unchanged and no apology has been offered for the misrepresentation. I ask that the moderator remove the quote from Mishei's text.

However, and now we see how this works, Mishei states that the PFLP is saying that the attack on Iraq is a result of Zionist influence, and then people begin to discuss it as if this what is being said.

Whazzup, read the press release and quote where it states that attack on Iraq is either Jewish or Zionist controlled because it does not. It explicitly describes an alliance of forces, including a number of Arab states -- one of them happens to be Zionism. To associate it with the racist ideology of Pat Buachan et al, is completely inaccurate.

This manipulation of the discussion through misrepresentation and insinuation is completely sleezy, and inappropriate for this board.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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ronb
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posted 26 March 2003 05:31 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei you are a godamned coward.
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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I reject MD's request. It has been fully explained. This would then be the ultimate in censorship which would totally ruin all you have so successfully worked towards.
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Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 05:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. I will not alter the content of his post because that will make this entire debate look dumb. If he wants to do it, he may. It's been made perfectly clear how his post is a misrepresentation of what you said by you, skdadl, and me.

ronb, I understand your frustration, but that's not necessary.


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ronb
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posted 26 March 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough. I apologize. Goat was gotten. For the last time, in that paticular critter's case.
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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At least you can do it.
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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 05:47 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whazzup, read the press release and quote where it states that attack on Iraq is either Jewish or Zionist controlled because it does not.

OK

quote:
American-British-Zionist aggression continues against . . . Iraq

I take that to mean that Zionism is one of the cornerstones of the attack against Iraq. I find this notion somewhat ... how shall I say it? ... fanciful.


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 05:53 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well folks I too understand that when someone you vehently disagree with on ideas does something that you feel is wrong...even if he explains that it was not intentional...you really do not give a shit. I guess I shouldnt be surprised but for anyone reading this I imagine they must shake their heads in dismay at the pettiness of it all.

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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 05:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry, Whazzup?, but I also noticed that (somewhat more subtle) early manoeuvre of Mishei's, and wondered about it.

I am a student of rhetoric, and Mishei in subsequent posts turned what is a simple succession in MD's original into a question of causation located in one of three equivalent elements. I mean, what Mishei did is illogical. It is just plain illogical.

I think MD is justified in feeling frustrated by Mishei's repeated misrepresentations of him or the docs he quotes on this thread. And that's before we even get to the content -- about which, as I have admitted above, I know next to nothing.

But I can recognize a rhetorical hatchet-job when I see one, chick.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup:

You may disagree with it, but it does not say that the attack is inspired, or controlled by Zionists, or that British and US forces are acting on behalf of Zionism. Or that there is Jewish Cabal running Washington. It does not suggest that it is Zionist's are the puppet master or any such nonsense. It speak of common cause.

It does not say that Britain and the US are acting in this manner because of Zionist influence, which is the tenor and meaning of the racist propoganda that Mishei is trying to associate with this document. Sorry, it just does not wash.

It does say that there are linkages, and anyone who has read any of Sharon's recent statements knows that he is firm supporter of the war. The press release speaks of a common cause. To suggest that Israel's position in the whole affair is not relavant, or that Israel does not support the war is to divorce yourself from reality.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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pogge
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posted 26 March 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since you ask, Mishei, I'm shaking my head at the fact that the original selective quote still stands. Regardless of your intentions, you obviously misrepresented what Moredreads had written. Your refusal to edit that post to acknowledge the error, if that's indeed what it was, doesn't strengthen your position.
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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You may disagree with it, but it does not say that the attack is inspired, or controlled by Zionists, or that British and US forces are acting on behalf of Zionism.

It says much more than that. It says explicitly that Zionism is conducting the aggression. If you don't see a problem with that, then I suggest your easily-wounded feelings are remarkably selective.


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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup?, IT DOES NOT! What is the matter with you tonight?
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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given that the press release subject is also the occupation of the WB and Gaza Strip, it would be stupid to leave Israel out, don't you think?

quote:
We must work to form an Arab and World-wide Front to oppose the continuing aggression against Iraq and Palestine.

Furthermore, there are number of nations who are particpating in the coalition who are not directly participating in the agression, but are supporting it. In fact, as you well know, Israel is directly supporting the invasion, by not being directly involved, although it would love to.

Included in this indirect support is, according to the Jerusalem Post, training US marines in house to house combat in Jenin, as I noted above.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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skdadl
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posted 26 March 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have to go. I hope you all survive the night.

Well ... I'm being generous with "all" there.


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ronb
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posted 26 March 2003 06:13 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I take that to mean that Zionism is one of the cornerstones of the attack against Iraq. I find this notion somewhat ... how shall I say it? ... fanciful.

How about one of the motivations? Considerations?


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 06:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Skdadl I am sure you would want me to "survive" the night!! Despite everything No one here wishes death on one another.

Slim, please man read...I did ackowledge the concerns and explained it fully. You refuse to accept it along with those others of you that dislike my support of Israel, OK I'll live with that. But please do not say things that are incorrect.


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pogge
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posted 26 March 2003 06:41 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Slim, please man read...I did ackowledge the concerns and explained it fully. You refuse to accept it along with those others of you that dislike my support of Israel, OK I'll live with that. But please do not say things that are incorrect.

Nothing I said is incorrect. You misrepresented a source and you've allowed the misquote to stand. At this point I don't care whether it was an accident or not. If you allow misrepresentations like that to stand then I can't trust what you post, i.e. you lose credibility.


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Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Folks I have made the change. I have been convinced of the need to do so. However, I offer no apologies. I explained myselfe but was convinced by some I respect off line that to leave the original was improper.
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Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'M not going to survive the night.

Mishei, you're the best. Thanks.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 06:57 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Mishei. It was the right thing to change it from:

quote:
Israel exists that is the problem, and that is why more and more Jews reject it.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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ronb
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posted 26 March 2003 07:04 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I personally apologize to you mishei. Please forgive my outburst.
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Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 07:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Group hug! Awwww.
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pogge
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posted 26 March 2003 07:15 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Naw. That was too much work.
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Whazzup?
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posted 26 March 2003 08:28 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Given that the press release subject is also the occupation of the WB and Gaza Strip, it would be stupid to leave Israel out, don't you think?

I'm bewildered. The PFLP statement specifically claims that "For the fourth consecutive day American-British-Zionist aggression continues [against Iraq]." This has nothing to do with the WB -- "Zionist aggression" there has been a hell of a lot longer than 4 days. What does "Zionist aggression" mean, then, skdadl and Moredreads, if not the allegation that Zionism is co-conducting the attack against Iraq? What the hell else could it mean?

WHat is the problem here? You ask for an opinion about a statement from an organization that sponsors suicide bombing against civilians, salutes Iraqi leaders, and condemns non-existent "Zionist aggression" in Iraq. Should there really be any controversy here?


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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 08:59 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So the fact that French resistance fighters, or the Jewish resistance in Warsaw lived within the civilian poulation justifies reprisals against the civilian population by the Germans.

No did I say that once again I don't justify it if they endangered children and civilians it's wrong period. Your switching sides all the time and it's beginning to sound a bit hypocritical do you think you'll get me to trip over my words like the stupid American warmonger like in that thread about war mongers. I'm no war monger I do care about civilians. Don't ever equate this to what the Germans did in world war 2. Hiding behind civilians doesn't justify the Germans but what the Germans did does not Justify Hiding behind civilians. Am I not being clear?

Now that we got that straighten. Hiding behind civilians does not justify the use of excessive force but talk about excessive force, like I said before if the IDF wanted to it could do way more and you can't deny that. So you can't compare them to Germans in World War 2. So the conclusion is that people who hide behind civilians are evil and bad and there is now being sympatric they have no respect for human life. If I value a Childs life beyond my own so can they. If not it's just not human. (Pay attention people once again let me make this clear I'm not saying this collectively only towards specific terrorist groups the majority of Palestinians are not terrorist and neither are the vast majority Israeli soldiers and officers) Most soldiers do not enjoy killing children I’m quite certain for those who have experienced it the majority are scared for life I wonder if you know how it feels?


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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 09:05 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads I missed something before needs to be covered but the question needs to be asked. If you know so well what’s going on Iran why don't you tell us? Who is in control? Who is really concerned with Human Rights and who isn't? And what Human Rights do the Iranians in Iran have? Thanks to their wonderful leadership.
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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 09:09 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup:

First of all I did not ask for your opinion.

All I am trying to show you is that the press release does not say that the war is being faught because of Zionist influence on the US and Great Britain, as Mishei has tried to falsely establish.

On the balance, given that it was the British who laid the groundwork for Israel through the Balfour Declaration and that Israel flatulant economy scrapes by on US aid and that 36 odd UN resolutions demanding action on key Palestinian issues have been vetoed in the security council by the USA, establishing long term strategic alliances between the three countries is completely justifiable.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 09:13 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, the Germans justified there reprisals on the basis that the resistance fighters were hiding among civilians, etc. It is an age old argument.

I am not up for a discussion about Iran today, start a new thread and I think you wil l get some interesting responses.


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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 10:28 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No problem about Iran but you can't call me wrong before you explain why.

And there is a very simple explanation for 36 veto's by the US on the Israel issue.

There are some 21 Arab states in the Asian Block of the UN. Because of this Israel was denied to become a member of the Block it was suppose to. Rendering Israel almost powerless had every UN resolution on Israel been passed Israel would have long cease to exist were it not for the US. And don't find it odd that more UN resolutions are made on Israel then any other country when we all perfectly know well that if we weren't biased there are countries like Iraq, Sudan even China and many more, that deserve way more resolutions than the amount that Israel gets. If you think the Americans are biased and self interested I suggest first you take a closer look at the Arab states. (Pay attention once again that this is not meant to be a generalization I don't believe that the majority of these governments represent their people that’s why I wonder why they even get representation in the UN when the UN is suppose to represent everyone clearly a lot of people if not the majority of the world have been neglected due to this ignorance and injustice).


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Israel wants to get in tight with the Asia block it should start by returning the Golan Heights to Syria, Cheba Farms to Lebanon and get the IDF out of Gaza and the West Bank. This might smooth a few ruffled feathers here and there, as most of those resolutions are specifically about those issues, I think we can be fairly certain that those issues are sailent as far as the rest of the Asia block is concerned.
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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And what does Israel get in return? Can Israel be sure then that it won’t be bombed? that the Syrians won't attempt an invasion? And About the Sheba farms that’s an odd one the Syrians claim it belongs to the Lebanese the Lebanese claims it belongs to Syria hmmm what is that all about?

And as far as getting out of Palestine well I think that’s being discussed as we speak on a million other threads.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 March 2003 11:20 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And what does Israel get in return? Can Israel be sure then that it won’t be bombed? that the Syrians won't attempt an invasion?

None of these things can ever be guaranteed.

Consider that none of the armies of these countries has touched the Israeli army within Israel in 30 years, despite the fact that Israel is holding onto territory that is clearly within their soveriegn borders. Given this it is a safe bet that no such action is forthcoming.

The vietnamese withdrew from Cambodia within 5 years. China from India within a month. The US from Germany within 5 years. Yet Israel is still holding onto territory that it occupied over 36 years ago.

It may be impossible to prevent attacks by militia bands completely, but it is the case that such activity has been severly reduced since Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon.

In short Israel gets a signed peace treaty that has in reality been in effect fot 30 years.

quote:
And About the Sheba farms that’s an odd one the Syrians claim it belongs to the Lebanese the Lebanese claims it belongs to Syria hmmm what is that all about?

This is probably the cruelest joke ever purpetrated in international law, one country occupies territory that does not belong to it, on the basis that the two countries that do have a legitimate claim can not agree who it belongs to. Switzerland can claim Alsace Lorraine, because Germany and France have both have traditional claims to it? No way.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Justice
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posted 26 March 2003 11:38 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel doesn't claim it belongs to them it tries to give it back but nether wants it. Why? You tell me. The only conclusion I can come to is that they both have interest in making life difficult for Israel so they can ware Israel down and then attack. It's an excuse for both of them to keep up the Guerrilla warfare with out actually going to all out war.

And did it ever occur to you that maybe the only reason Syria isn't attacking israel all out is because their afraid perhaps if they got the Golan heights they start to become more gutsy which would be really dumb considering today’s WMD that both sides have. I would love to return the Golan Heights for Peace but I'm sorry knowing the history of the current Syrian regime why should Israel feel they'll hold up their bargain. In 73 their was a war between Syria and Israel. Israel pushed the Syrian troops back to Damascus and retreated. It retreated as far is could well still insuring what felt would give it the greatest security we all know that peace would be the best security but you still haven't proved that is really what the Syrian government has in mind.


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Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2003 11:42 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way the Vietnamese backed off after committing genocide in Cambodia, The Chinese still occupy Tibet. And the states left Germany after a stable democracy was created. I’m perfectly in favor of Israel leaving the Golan Heights once a stable democracy is created in Syria.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 26 March 2003 11:42 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are right Israel has the bomb, therefore it is safe to give up Golan from a military perspective.

Syria never recouped the losses of the '73 war, whereas Israel has. The situation for the Syria army was further undermined by the collapse of its chief sponsor,the Soviet Union,in 1990. Even in a conventioal sense the Arabs are not able to mount the kind of campaign that they mounted in 1973 -- they just don't have the equipment.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your right but the Syrian government may just be that crazy it's a dictatorship not a democracy the casualties would be horrific on both sides nether would be able to recover its losses and Syrians may have ceased to exist. Have you ever heard of MAD? I believe that’s what will happen unless there is some sort of fundamental change in the Syrian government.

Syria may not be able to attack Israel in the conventional sense but it has unconventional weapons and it could attack in the unconventional sense which is worse if you ask me.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
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posted 26 March 2003 11:49 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By the way the Vietnamese backed off after committing genocide in Cambodia

Sorry, it was the Khmer Rouge that committed the genocide in Cambodia. It was the Vietnamese that removed the Khmer Rouge from power. They installed a moderate rebel Khmer Rouge commander, Hun Sen, in the place of Pol Pot. Look it up.

I was not talking about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. I was talking about the Indian invasion of China in 1960, where the Chinese routed the ill-prepared Indian army and counter attacked and briefly occupied portions of India before withdrawing. Look it up.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2003 11:53 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
all I was trying to show was the Chinese are no saints in that sense I knew you weren’t talking about the occupation Tibet.

I'm sorry caught me of Guard on Cambodia one point for you I guess it's about time. But still they Vietnamese installed a moderate government then left. hmmm is there a patern???


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 27 March 2003 12:56 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey the Chinese are no saints but are you now trying to compare a totalitarian single party state as some sort of model by which Israel is to be compared?

Also China has a far more justifiable claim to Tibet than Israel to the occuppied territories given that Tibet was more or less a vasal state of the 'Celestial Empire,' wherein it had local autonomy but China pulled the strings. Tibet's brief period of independence occurred after the British 1904 invasion.

What I am saying is that Tibet was essentially part of China before Israel existed as anything more than Idea.

Even the Dalai Lama has made statments to the effect that he would accept local autonomy within a Chinese national structure. In other words a return to the pre 1904 relationship. Look it up.

Look it up.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 27 March 2003 01:39 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A totalitarian party state??? There are more parties in the Israeli government then almost any other state I know last time I checked including more then one Arab party.

Far more Justifable claim then Israel???

If you are going to use an excuse like that to your claim, then I guess no one deserves a country of their own. The Chechens should just shut up and stop winning the same with Quebecers and who cares about the Indians. Why can’t the PLO accept an autonomy “I’m being sarcastic” but you better come up with a better and fairer argument then that if your going to use stuff like that I could go back 3000 years but I’m not that self-righteous, arrogant or fanatic fundamentalist. “It’s my country because it’s been that way for thousands of years and God said so” I would never use arguments like that but look deeper what you just said. I also at the same time respect a peoples Heritage and identity and I would die to make sure both Israelis and Palestinians could mutually and respectfully keep that heritage but all you do is Israel is wrong, wrong , wrong, bad, bad, bad when will people ever admit that responsibility lies on both sides equally.

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 27 March 2003 01:59 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another thing Moreheads you know the facts you don't deny the fact sometimes you shed new light that isn't often seen which is great we can all learn something but I truly find disturbing that you go out of your way to justify the crimes against humanity on one side well totally condemning them on the other. To make it as if Israel is 10,000 times more vicious then any state that ever existed. That is Hypocrisy that is a double standard. I wasn't justifying I admitted that sometimes, sometimes things got out of hand I shed light from a different angle but you just excused horrible crimes. Said they were forced to it. Do you really think then we should excuse all terrorist because they are all mentally insane??? Yes it will make our world much safer we'll just give everybody what they want we're not worthy.

Why don’t you try to live in China or Syria or Iraq for a couple years under Saddam for a couple years then live in Israel or even Palestine and tell me what you prefer?

I’m not accusing you of anything but it really is beginning to sound like you couldn’t care less about Israeli or Jewish human rights.

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 27 March 2003 02:49 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't the PFLP the organization that did a bunch of hijackings in the 70s and 80s involving blowing up planes and slaughtering many innocent people who have nothing to do with the conflict in the Middle East?

can we all agree that there can be absolutely no justification for hijacking commercial aircraft?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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Babbler # 3393

posted 27 March 2003 03:27 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, the PFLP renouced these activities in the late seventies, under Habash. The change of policy was directed at doing military operations only in Palestine/Israel proper.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 27 March 2003 03:56 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To make it as if Israel is 10,000 times more vicious then any state that ever existed.

Thanks you but no I don't. There are two key aspects that you are missing:

1) I do not think that Israel is 10,000 times worse than any other state. I think that as far as ethnic cleansing projects go Israel has been fairly restrained.

2) This said the situation between Israeli's and Palestinians is absolutely critical to world peace. The continued maltreatement of Palestinians by Israel is a key blockage to settlement to a whole series of disputes, many of which are coming to a critical point in Iraq, right now.

Considering the imprortance of the latter, focussing on the key issues of Arab discontent around the issue of Israel is extra important, even if Israel agression is less bad than say the atrocities committed by Saddam against the Kurds. But this is not meant to downplay any of the imorality and criminality of Israel continued occupation of Arab land or the extreme measures that they use to enforce it.

This is the kind of thing I am talking about resoving:

quote:
Syrian President Bashar Assad was quoted in Lebanese newspaper As-Safir Thursday as calling on Arab nations to oppose the coalition and hinting that Syria expects a coalition attack. He also called Israel a threat to Syria.

What I am saying, Justice, is that Israel has got to take a hit for the team.

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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Babbler # 3393

posted 27 March 2003 07:06 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup, just to bring you up to speed on the world politics and the Likud connection to the anti-Saddam movement:

quote:
In 1996, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith and David Wurmser, now administration officials, joined in a report to the newly elected Likud government in Israel calling for "a clean break" with the policies of negotiating with the Palestinians and trading land for peace. They said "Israel can shape its strategic environment…by weakening, containing and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq…Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly." They called for "reestablishing the principle of preemption."

I am sure that if you ask a few high school students they can fill you in on the rest.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 27 March 2003 08:22 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hit for the tea would be no problem but what your purposing is self sacrifice (Suicide) Israel should completely give up everything in order to make everyone happy. When the truth is they never will.

Land for Peace No problem right of return well I don't think it's impossible but tell me what obligations would the Arabs have? What systems are going to be put in place to insure Israelis security? And the war with Iraq is quite similar in this sense. Nobody wants a war but it doesn't seem as anyone really cared. Can't we know that pressure needed to be applied to keep Saddam in check, that it needed to be in away that hit him and not civilians, but there was no viable solution or the world didn't care to come up with one and Don't tell me about inspector and sanctions because they were being broken on left and right and who suffered from this the people of Iraq.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 March 2003 08:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is pretty long, so I'll close it - you can start a new thread if you'd like.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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