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Author Topic: Thank you for liberating me. (warning: graphic war photo)
drgoodword
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posted 24 March 2003 04:52 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
click

drg

It's a really upsetting picture. Click on it, if you want to.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 05:37 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Man, I appreciate the sentiment, but I was a little sickened by it. Next time you do that put a warning on the post or something in the title.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 March 2003 06:56 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's always so strange and saddening to see a dead person. And yes, I agree - a warning should be on threads like this before showing the picture.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 08:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
War porn. Lovely. I personally think that picture is completely inappropriate, but I'm going to consult with Audra about it before saying anything further about it.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2003 09:01 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But that is us. It is all of us. That is the human body. That can happen to any of us. One way or another, it will happen to all of us.

To me, it is better not to turn away. Try that once, and you will discover that looking is not as hard as you thought. Look, and feel tenderness towards the person who has been wounded, and you will find that it is not so difficult.

I grant that people are different, and their reactions to trauma are always forgivably different -- and yet I think it is important that more and more of us learn to look without horror at anything that may happen to the bodies of our brothers and sisters. It is us. It will be you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 09:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I disagree. That is just as exploitative and disrespectful as it would be if the opposite end of the political spectrum used dead or wounded bodies to make their case.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2003 09:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't understand this reaction.

The display on this very site, eg, just a couple of weeks ago, of photos from the Gulf War Highway of Death were immensely moving. Many were of incinerated Iraqi soldiers.

How can people in protected societies understand what is happening, what always happens in war, unless they see?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 09:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I understand the reasoning behind the showing of dead bodies. I just disagree, that's all, skdadl. I've seen lots of dead bodies. If that were my son, I'd be pissed off at his image being used that way, even if he was being exploited to support a political opinion I agreed with.

And I also disagree with us being sheltered. The more dead bodies we see, the less sensitized we get in my opinion, not more. Why do you think people barely blink nowadays when you see gory body counts in movies?

I still say this is war porn. On the same level as snuff films.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 09:22 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it is good to see these things, like Skdadl, but it would be nice to be warned that I am going to see some ugliness before I see it. The top of the kids head is blown off. But it is not porn.

Porn in my mind is the gratuitous use of imagery to excite people. This image is used to make a political point. Given that the top of the kids head is missing due to politics, I don't think it is inappropriate to show the image in a political context.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2003 09:27 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that becoming numbed is not a useful reaction. I am also deeply convinced, though, that shock is not a useful reaction either.

Do North Americans really see lots of dead bodies? Where? Violent movies don't show dead bodies, not real ones. They show violence, and fantasy results, exaggerated or prettified.

If people really looked at what happens to real bodies as they age or when they are wounded or diseased, they would, I believe, learn something I will rest here at calling tenderness, because I can't think of a better term just now.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 09:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well in that case, here's a web site you might really find useful:

http://www.rotten.com/


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 09:42 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ogrish.com is another horror site, and way worse than Rotten.com. However, they use images of violence in a gratuitous manner, not to make a point.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 09:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who's to say? What if I wanted a really great picture of an executed person because I wanted to celebrate, say, Bundy getting his? Who's to say that my reasons are any better than yours?

Although I didn't look at it, they claim to have a picture of a dead hooker. Maybe I should post that as a warning about the dangers faced by female sex trade workers.

Maybe every thread about any kind of social problem that causes death should have pictures of dead bodies in them. That will certainly make us all better people and better activists.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 09:54 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't have a problem with the Bundy scenario. Just with the political deduction attached (a celebration,) but the point is validly made even if the deduction is wrong. Again, Bundy's victims are relvant to Bundy, as are GWB's to GWB.

It is not gratuitous.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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googlymoogly
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posted 24 March 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe every thread about any kind of social problem that causes death should have pictures of dead bodies in them. That will certainly make us all better people and better activists.

Oh, please. You might want to actually look at the rotten.com website before passing a judgement on it; he has a page that says exactly why he does what he does in showing the pics and everything....


From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
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posted 24 March 2003 10:47 AM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As forthe pic on this thread, I think it's a good idea to be reminded of the gruesome reality of war. We all think we know what people mean when they talk about war casualties, but there's no denying that since most of Western society has been spoonfed the glossed-over version of world events by the media, it's a good reminder of the reality of such situations. And I don't think a warning should be placed, for that same reason.
From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 March 2003 10:54 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What annoys me about photos like this is that they're seldom published by someone who wants to change your mind about violence, but by someone who wants you to change your political opinion about "the other side". They all carry an invisible caption, IMHO, that says "See! See! See how horrible and inhumane they are?!"

Last year there was a flurry of these kinds of pic posts on other boards, and it was almost like a contest... like if one side could post the most anonymous pictures of dead people their "side" would win the moral highground.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 24 March 2003 10:56 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it is explotive to show Iraqi children recieving choclate from American soldiers when the reality is the image at the top of this thread.

I think seeing images like this and like the one of the little girl running while on fire from Viet Nam I believe, make an impact in a way the words can't. Maybe it will make some chickenhawk feel ill and wake up their brain a little bit. And question wether this is the liberation they thought they were bringing and if they would like to be so liberated.

I don't believe this is war porn.

Just a little aside, seeing as we are discussing in a variety of threads the Geneva Convention. I don't believe it is illegal to show the faces of POW, showing them being degraded is illegal. Being handcuffed and being made to speak isn't degrading. Or am I mistaken. Because if it is illegal the US has violated this Convention repeatedly since 9/11.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 11:02 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a classic, from the Spanish Civil War. It was considered horrifice at the time, but it engaged people and made them think.

Robert Capa -- the Moment of Death

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drgoodword
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posted 24 March 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those who've said this thread should have come with a "graphic photo" warning are right...my apologies, and I've added it to the thread title.

As for the appropriateness of this disturbing photo...I personally have always maintained that one of the reasons people--especially Americans--are so quick to support military action is because war is too abstract to them...they only know of the Gulf War video game of bombs being dropped from great heights, and too little of the results on the ground.

TV coverage of the Vietnam war is widely acknowledged to have hastened its end. The bombing of Bosnia was precipitated by the wildly distorted photograph of a tubercular Fikrit Alic "behind" barbed wire. American involvement in Somalia was ended overnight after video footage was shown nationally of a Marine's corpse being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.

Images have great power...and if a horrific image can be usedhonestly in the cause for good, they it should by all means be used.

Michelle, you say that if that was your child, you wouldn't want such a photograph used for political purposes...I must disagree. If that was my child--and it was my country being destroyed--I'd want that photograph on every television set in the world, especially in the nation that has taken upon itself to wage an immoral, illegal and murderous war, if there was even the slightest chance that it could somehow help stop the suffering, stop the killing, stop the war.

I'd want this terrible death to not have been in vain.

drg


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ben_al
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posted 24 March 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for ben_al     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find the above picture revolting, as any normal and decent human would, but I dont think that these things, no matter how horrific should be censored. I wish that nobody would ever have to see something like that, but this is a fucked up world we live in, and unfortunately things like this happen. If people don't want to see pictures of people with their heads blown off, they should stop promoting wars that cause such horrors.
From: Kitchener, ON | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 24 March 2003 11:57 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think this is war porn either. We should not keep ourselves ignorant to the facts and crimes committed at war. This image sent a chill up my spine, yet not at all against the posting of these images. This is an image of an Iraqi victim of the American aggression on Iraqi turf. It is not an image of an American victim of Iraqi aggression on American turf, and you'll never see that. Our mainstream media shows captured and killed U.S. soldiers to help build support for the war, regardless of who made them or who their interrogaters are. However they will not show pictures of Iraqi victims. U.S. called the images of the soldier "war crimes", but the U.S. did the same in Cuba. And this whole war is a war crime in itself. How Hypocritical!

Here is the same photo as the one above, just zoomed out. Is this less terrifying? Or should we zoom in again?

Edited to add pic.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 12:23 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Familiar image? Moscow under attack, July 1941.

I saw this recently and it struck how similar it is to some of the black and whites coming out of Baghdad.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 March 2003 01:17 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What did you learn from this photo that you didn't already know? What have you learned from viewing dozens of photos of shot Palestinians? Blown up Israelis? Would a photo of a murdered little girl change your mind about capital punishment? Would a photo of a mauled boy change your opinion of aggressive breeds of dog?

What makes it "not news" is just that: it's not news.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We aren't talking about news, we are talking about reality.

People in the US have, isnce the Civil War been one of the few population to not directly experience war, except far away. This means that the population as a whole, in my belief, is far more willing to inflict it on others. By displaying images such as these, people at least will have some idea of the direct consequences of the actions that are being undertaken by there government.

Pictures of smiling Iraqis and triumphant armies driving their lorries hither and thither will tend to twist the civil populations general, if not their specific, understanding of what the war really is. Germans, French and Russians all experienced WW2 directly, while many European cities still bare the scars and the stories of mothers fathers, and grandmothers and grandfathers have ensured that most Europeans have an instinctive and well informed understanding of the horror of war.

In this perhaps lies the key to much of Europes reaction to the idea of this war.


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fatcalf
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posted 24 March 2003 01:35 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
I have to agree with Michelle: that photo of the dead child is war porn. Perhaps if I knew whether the parents of that child had given permission for the use of the image, I might feel differently. A few months ago, I saw an interview with the mother of a dead child who had been killed in the Oklahoma bombing -- her child, already dead, had been photographed being carried by a fireman on the scene of the bombing. It is a heroic picture, it is tragic. But the image was distributed world-wide, and appeared on t-shirts and coffee mugs(!). The mother was understandably distraught, and started an organization to address this issue. I think she had a point, as would the mother of the child depicted above in this thread.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 01:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know, I'm starting to change my mind a bit...your arguments are convincing me. Somewhat. I still wouldn't want my son's picture used like that, but I see your point about how people should be shaken out of their complacency. I've made the same arguments before about other pictures.

I guess I just thought that one was so incredibly violent and gratuitous...I'm still torn on it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Question: How Fatcalf do you know the mother is alive to make you petty middle class complaint?

Can you say naive?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry if my concern seemed petty and middle class to you, Moredreads (I know you were addressing fatcalf, but I made similar arguments). Pictures of dead kids are not "petty" and I'm certainly not "middle class" so characterizing my concern that way is pretty cheap of you, I think.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 24 March 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads: you have access to a computer, you obviously seem educated, etc. By world standards, you certainly ARE middle-class. Get over your ersatz radical chic self-labelling.

Do you think a parent has no say over the use of an image of his/her dead child? Interesting point of view. Oh, to be so world-weary as you, but I'll take naive if it means retaining my humanity.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 24 March 2003 01:57 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I say the day we need to start worrying is the day we stop being horrified by such images. And when we are living in a time when people can peddle stuff like this quote (from the first "shock and awe" thread)
quote:
Most of the Iraqui(sic) people probably had enough common sense to stay away from potential military targets. They should be fine as long as they stay in their basements.

...showing the true face of war and its impact is more important than ever.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 March 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find the attitude that "other people", and specifically those of the U.S., "need" to be wakened from their complacency very arrogant.

Every year on Yonge St. the anti-choice kooks arrive with their 4' x 6' photos of mangled fetuses to wake us out of our complacency too.

quote:
If people don't want to see pictures of people with their heads blown off, they should stop promoting wars that cause such horrors.

And if I don't want to see those dead fetus pictures what should I do?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just don't understand how it is ok to show pictures of dead men, and dead women, or photographs of Rachel Corrie's mushed up face and then get all in a knot because the victim is not an adult.

This is the reality.

The complaint comes from a world view that is embedded in protected middle class thinking. I am sorry that you find that insulting, but truthfully if you are living in Britain, Canada or the US you are, in terms of the Mid-East protected and middle class, if not fabulously rich. I have this as well, my immediate reaction was to look away as I expressed in my first post.

But repreatedly, I have seen photogaphs of women from this part of the world showing photgraphs of their slaughtered relatives in order to clearly establish what exactly has been done to their flesh and blood. Many are so used to the violence and are so inured to it that I bet if you raised this question, they would look at you with stark incomprehension.

I remember the most cogent think CyberNomad ever said on this board is that "We bubble wrap our kids..." It is time we stopped.

That is my feeling.

Sorry if you are insulted.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Every year on Yonge St. the anti-choice kooks arrive with their 4' x 6' photos of mangled fetuses to wake us out of our complacency too.

But it is not porn because it is not gratuitous.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 02:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I didn't like the Rachel Corrie pictures either (and I think someone else mentioned that they didn't like them being used), but I don't remember them being as graphic as this one.

I don't know. I already said I was coming around to seeing it from your perspective, and I guess I just thought that "middle class" slur was a rather cheap shot, considering that, as you say, we're all pretty much middle class around here compared to the rest of the world. My sentiments are no more middle class than yours are.

One could make comments about activists who fight the power from behind their computer in their comfy chair, but I think that would be cheap as well.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 02:10 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you think a parent has no say over the use of an image of his/her dead child? Interesting point of view. Oh, to be so world-weary as you, but I'll take naive if it means retaining my humanity.

More right wing sentimentality. You should be more realistic. You wanted this war. There it is right at the top of this thread.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I think it was that particular pious comment that tipped the balance of the argument in your favour for me, Moredreads.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've made my argument already. It stands, and no I don't deny the MC thing either, but then its not like I haven't seem action, either.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 24 March 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think it is explotive to show Iraqi children recieving choclate from American soldiers when the reality is the image at the top of this thread.

Says it for me. I think the photo that started the thread was much less offensive than "Fireworks over Baghdad" photos. Those are truly "war porn", just like the talking heads drooling over state-of-the-art technology.

I don't see how Rotten.com (which I explored quite thoroughly about a year ago) and Ogrish.com (which I have no desire to visit) can be seen as anything other than exploitation. However, unless people are being hurt specifically in order to get the photos, it's freedom of expression and less offensive than CIA-officers-as-heroes action films which is where people like Stephen Harper get their view of the global geopolitical situation, judging from his muddled, inaccurate and naive opinions.


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 24 March 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
More left-wing, radical chic posturing. Have you got your Che Gueverra shirt back from the dry-cleaners? If so boot-up the computer and Rage against the Machine (memo: check hair appointment for dreadlock touch-up).


quote:
In France there is a guy who makes art out of cadavers.
.... Uhh....beam me up, Scotty....

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rage are great. PE says it all and Heron want's you to know the revolution will be live:

quote:
You will not be able to stay home, brother.
You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip, out for beer during commercials,
Because the revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox
In 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John

Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary.
The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be brought to you by the
Schaefer Award Theatre and will not star Natalie
Woods and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia.
The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
The revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
The revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, Brother.

There will be no pictures of you and Willie May
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run, or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
NBC will not be able predict the winner at 8:32 or report from 29 districts.

The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy
Wilkens strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and

Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
For just the proper occasion.
Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.

The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and Jackie Onassis blowing her nose.
The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb,
Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom
Jones, Johnny Cash, Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth.

The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be right back after a message
about a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
You will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
The revolution will not go better with Coke.
The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.

The revolution will put you in the driver's seat.

The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.


But then, I doubt you are interested in that. I see on another thread you were explaining how it might be ok for a grown man to fuck a 13 year old kid and explaning her complicity with some gump about 'grey areas,' and then here about how it is not ok to show a picture of 13 year old with the top of his or her head blown of because its pronographic.

And then you talk about retaining your humanity?

PS: Sorry no tats, no black, no hairdoo, got me wrong all the way around, except for the tunes.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 24 March 2003 02:34 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But it is not porn because it is not gratuitous.

Well, they have about 3 of them for every block from Queen to Bloor (on both sides), and each is nearly the size of a twin bed, so I think it's pretty gratuitous, especially when a pamphlet would do.

Do the fetus photos change your mind about abortions? Do you look away? How is their use of a shocking fetus to try and sway your opinion any different from using this child's injuries to sway your opinion?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3819

posted 24 March 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I find the attitude that "other people", and specifically those of the U.S., "need" to be wakened from their complacency very arrogant.

I never said that the attitude was confined to people of the US, or to middle/elite class people from anywhere for that matter. I know that I have been somewhat complacent myself, and that it is partly my own fault. I still think that the reality needs to be exposed; whether people listen or not is entirely up to them.

However, using pictures of mangled up fetuses could be used in some circumstances by the anti-choice movement, I think, depending highly on how they were used. I don't think they should be plastered on streetcorners for everyone to see as they walked by; I don't think they should be made public to that extent (I'm trying to figure out for myself what approach I think would be best for situations like these).

My opposition to plastering pictures of dead bodies in full public view is for the same reason as my opposition to PETA's comparisons between slaughtered animals and Holocaust victims. There is a time and a place for that kind of provocative imagery, and forcing them into full public view on a streetcorner is not it.


From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
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posted 24 March 2003 02:37 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, perhaps they over do it, but here we have one single ugly war picture on one little thread, on an out of the way site, and everyone goes crazy. I mean come on.

In my first post I objected to the fact that there was no warning as to the content of the thread. So yes, I don't think this picture should be plastered around to force an emotional response, but yes these kinds of things can and should be legitimately displayed as part of ongoing news coverage.

People should know what it looks like.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 March 2003 02:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I've made my argument already. It stands, and no I don't deny the MC thing either, but then its not like I haven't seem action, either.

No no, I meant the pious comment that fatcalf made that you quoted tipped the balance for me in favour of your argument, Moredreads. Sorry for not making myself clearer.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 24 March 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Freinds?
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 March 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
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posted 24 March 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
k.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
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Babbler # 3819

posted 24 March 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ok, perhaps they over do it, but here we have one single ugly war picture on one little thread, on an out of the way site, and everyone goes crazy. I mean come on.

Xactly
Although some people might argue that it doens't matter how many pictures are posted, whether it be one or 1 hundred, or whatever. I agree with that, but as for the fact that this is an out-of-the-way site, I agree that that factors in as well. Perhaps a warning would be appropriate (I changed my mind from earlier post on this thread, in which I was opposed to putting up a warning); this picture was placed on this thread for the purposes of discussion.

That brings up the point of exploitation. Some people argue that the picture was exploited; that might very well be true, but there's a difference between showing this picture on rabble.ca or whatever site it was put on in the first place, and selling it for profit, putting it on mugs, shirts, etc., or selling one of those true-crime books about the murder. Whatever the reasons for taking a picture like this, it does not change the fact that this poor child was blown to bits, like so many others.

What I got out of it was a jolt, a reminder of what we are fighting for in resisting this war. Other people can, of course, take from it what they will, but that's why I think these pics need to be shown, at least on sites like these.


From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 24 March 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IRAQ BODY COUNT Database

No pictures, but a running count. Very detailed.

quote:
This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military actions by the USA and its allies in 2003.

From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy M
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2183

posted 24 March 2003 03:02 PM      Profile for Tommy M     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Along the same lines

IMAGES TO EXPLODE THE MYTHS OF WAR

quote:

Al Jazeera TV beamed images across the Arab world of the dead and wounded, including a child with the back of its skull blown off. "It was a massacre," wailed one woman.

Imagine what effect that had on an already raging Arab world. Then imagine what future images of shock and awe we might soon see on our own doorstep



From: Here | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 24 March 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh. Big discussion. Food for thought.

However, my instinctive reaction is still that a warning should go over the thread title and some sort of provision should be made so it doesn't show up on the first post. That way squeamish types like me (I don't even like seeing needles!) can squint their eyes or hover their hand over the monitor to read the text and peek at the picture without losing lunch.

Moving along, I think if the USA's intelligence is as good as it allegedly is they should have been able to attack strictly military targets and limit the damage done.

Yes, one might claim that the only 135-210 confirmed dead bodies so far is a very small number, but that is a civilian count only and takes no account of the military deaths which will have to be itemized in the days and weeks to come - and every time a child is killed people will feel more motivated than if it were an adult being killed.

Children just aren't supposed to have that happen to them.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moses
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3823

posted 24 March 2003 09:35 PM      Profile for Moses     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
way squeamish types like me (I don't even like seeing needles!) can squint their eyes or hover their hand over the monitor to read the text and peek at the picture without losing lunch.

And you call yourself a doctor!?

Well personally, I think truth is more important than comfortably drawing the curtains. That image at the top of the thread should be meditated on daily. Then, maybe, just maybe, compassion will be something more than a nice idea. Or would you post warnings for articles as well, for example Fisk's description of wounded children in Baghdad hospital?

I believe that if the disputed image were shown on television without warning everyday, there would be an massive resistence to war, America would come to a standstill.


From: Earth | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 24 March 2003 09:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My nick is derived from a novel series, remember?

In all seriousness, making people lose their appetite doesn't sound like the soundest method of engendering informed opposition to war, although it certainly makes people wonder what the blazes is going on over there - witness the case of Vietnam.

What still bothers me is how ghostly the child looks. The other picture that's on a parody trading card isn't even as chilling even though the kid's eyes look glassy as though he were dead because the trading-card photo has a big fat bandage over the injured part of his head.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3214

posted 24 March 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Scout wrote:

I think seeing images like this and like the one of the little girl running while on fire from Viet Nam I believe, make an impact in a way the words can't.


Kim Phuc (the girl) actually lives in Ajax now. A very interesting, tragic (in many ways) and ultimately inspiring life story. Click here for a cbc.ca story on her.

This photo is considered to have had a significant impact on American antiwar sentiment. People need to see what the weapons their tax dollars pay for do.

In searching for this photo I came across an article that talks about the Nixon tapes released in 2002. I found Nixon's recorded comments a chilling reminder of how his kind of people, in his kind of position, can think and feel. A couple of excerpts:

quote:
(CBS) America is finding out more about Richard Nixon, as a result of another 500 hours of tapes of Nixon administration conversations, released Thursday by the National Archives.

In one exchange, he talks about the possibility of using a nuclear bomb in Vietnam; in another, he doubts the authenticity of the famous photograph of a young girl running naked down a street, fleeing a napalm attack in South Vietnam.

In one startling tape, then-National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger lays out a series of options for escalating the war in Vietnam, and Nixon responds: "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb."

That idea was quickly dismissed by Kissinger, and Nixon responds: "I just want you to think big."

The following month, Nixon ordered the biggest escalation of the war since 1968.

At another point, Nixon chides Kissinger for being too concerned about civilian casualties.

"I don't give a damn," Nixon says. "I don't care."


drg

P.S. Audra, I've posted Kim Phuc's picture here directly, however, if you want to make it a "click" link, I of course respect your decision as a moderator (and, of course, any of Michelle's decisions in that regard as well).


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 24 March 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just a thought about moderation. Audra can't and doesn't look at every post in every thread. Saying "I respect your decision" is no guarantee that she'll see whatever it is you want her to make a decision about. You need to email her if you want her opinion.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3214

posted 24 March 2003 11:37 PM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just a thought about moderation. Audra can't and doesn't look at every post in every thread. Saying "I respect your decision" is no guarantee that she'll see whatever it is you want her to make a decision about. You need to email her if you want her opinion.

It not that I'm actively seeking her decision on a particular posting issue here...I only included that P.S. to Audra as a friendly courtesy, letting her know that if she chooses to make Kim Phuc's photo not directly viewable as she did witht the photo I originally posted at the top of this thread, I respect her decision. I know forum moderation can be tough, with people complaining if changes are made to their posts, and I just wanted to let her know that it's cool by me...that I respect the mod's job and decisions.

drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 25 March 2003 02:04 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Another way of looking at this picture.

It is a transition we all will make. Death is such a mistory. We do not realy know if it is awfull for the dead. We can only react on it in terms of our own feelings.

Since the bomb manufacturers, the fighter/bombers pilots, cruisemissile operators, etc are the creators of these cadaver art-works, with the assistance of politicians and tax-payers, maybe we should send them the pictures, those poor souls otherwise would hardly ever see the result of their work.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moses
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3823

posted 25 March 2003 02:59 AM      Profile for Moses     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the creators of these cadaver art-works, with the assistance of politicians and tax-payers, maybe we should send them the pictures, those poor souls otherwise would hardly ever see the result of their work.
I agree. Far more to the point than letters or petitions. Send those images to Laura Bush. Send them to the wives of all the war-mongers.

Doc, I've never heard of any novel series by that name. Anyways, I was just making pun of you. Actually I usually find myself agreeing with you most of the time, but in this case, I think people should lose their apetite and their dinner if that's what it takes. War is death. Why give it any other face? The newspapers show a bit of fireworks, and CNN and the Asian papers have taken to showing images of fighter-jets and missiles from different angles, showing off their sleek designs. And that's the image of war we go home with.

Why do you think Washington is so upset about Iraq releasing footage of wounded and captured POW's? When war is given a human face or what is left of a human face, the public mind will no longer see war as acceptable.

quote:
"Sometimes I like to think of that little girl, screaming, running up the road, as being not just a symbol of war, but a symbol of a cry for peace." Kim Phuc

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Moses ]


From: Earth | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3012

posted 25 March 2003 03:10 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reading this thread makes me think even more about an email I received today...

quote:
With the advent of this war, I thought this photo might have something meaningful to say about struggle and hope.

It's written in portuguese so I'll do my best to translate it.

In the intro, the friend who e-mailed it to me tells me that the photographer that took the picture, after having recieved a prestigious award for it, committed suicide.

I wonder whether any journalist will recieve a promotion for their coverage of operation "shock and awe", and if so, will they feel the same way?

The photo is titled "The Futility of Life"

The caption reads:
Rather than being shocked, stop and focus on the photo. Extract from it a moment of lucidity, reflecting on your own life. The image is sad, yet in it, there is much else to be seen. The lens of the photographer captured more than a moving moment. The vulture observes, awaiting the moment in which this soul will deliver itself definitively. No, the child is not dead. Its body is weak, but it still carries a flame of hope. It implores much less than us, amongst our vulturous toys. Perhaps, five more minutes of life. Perhaps that an angel with a camera in hand, will shoot the vulture and give it the certainty that it is worth having hope. She does not have a dogmatic god, written faith nor anything else with which to scare off the vulture who sits watching. She has within her, only a child's heart. She has within her life. And the vulture respects this for in nature, it nourishes itself only with those who give themselves freely. And there is surely nothing stronger than the will to live...

The caption dedicates the text to all those who claim they are sick of life...
I extend this dedication to all those who at times feel that struggle is futile... For if Life is all we've got and life is struggle, instead of sitting and asking "why fight?" why don't we instead stand and say "why not!"

Dá que pensar...

A FUTILIDADE DA VIDA

"O fotógrafo que captou esta imagem recebeu um prémio importante nos
EUA
e no dia seguinte suicidou-se".

Sobre o texto anexo à foto nem uma palavra.
Depois desta foto espero que se dê mais valor à simples razão de se
viver. Esqueçam os sapatos, as malas, os jantares, as viagens, a cor do
cabelo e as idas ao ginásio... por um único minuto!"


Much of our communication is visual, directly or indirectly through the description of visual images; and these images we use to communicate have real effects - not just on those who receive the images, but on those who produce these images. We shouldn't forget this.


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1562

posted 25 March 2003 09:42 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The photographer had battled a huge drug problem, severe depression and probably PTSD.

He won the Pulitzer for that photo.

His name was Kevin Carter.

The Bang Bang Club


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2003 10:20 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for remebering to free the people of Armeina

Thank you for remebering to free the people of
Cambodia

Thank you for remebering to free the people of
Rwanda

Thank you for remebering to free the people who
died in the Holcaust

Thank you for liberating the Indians

Thank you for remebering to free the people of
Sudan

Thank you for remebering to free the people of
Pakistan

Thank you for taking your time in Afaganistan

Thank you for remebering to free the people of Tibet

Thank you for helping to make peace in West Africa.

THANK YOU ALL

There is still way more but this should make it clear for now

I could bring pics if I understood how to upload this site but expect most of you understand what I'm trying to say. (for those of you who know me don't say I forgot Israel because I didn't and it's no where near comparison with these atoricties).

WAR KILLS, SANCTIONS KILL MORE, BUT OUR IGNORANANCE AND LETTING EVIL DO AS IT WILLS KILLS FAR FAR MORE.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 25 March 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I first read that list and thought, "Someone has freed any of these peoples???"

Then I slowly penetrated the fog of the message, and decided that you must feel, Justice, that the injustices with which all these peoples live/have lived are somehow the result of the ignorance of ordinary citizens in Western countries.

And of course, in a sense you are right. Our ignorance is a secondary culpability. I say it is secondary because most of us have simply failed or refused to make the connection between what all these people suffer and the things our rulers/representatives have been doing in other countries in our names for so long.

Your post, though, Justice, seems to presume that the miseries all these people suffer somehow sprang up locally from no other cause but local "evil." Is that what you believe? (I'm restraining myself ...)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 25 March 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Justice

But how are we going to distinguish the evil dictator from ourself unless we stop doing the same?


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl

If you believe it's combantion your right.

But still it's mostly local evil because I don't think anyone told these local athorities to go out and kill intentionally. We just let them and turned are backs.

Bubbles and Skdadl Pay attention to the following

Turning our backs is bad, exploting saying it's not our problem and making a profit from it is very bad but giving the order and particapting is the worest.

It's not quite the same

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3428

posted 25 March 2003 04:12 PM      Profile for Pellaken     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm going to be as blunt as possible

I think the picture should not be censored. weather you support the war or not, this is the reality of it. some people, to be as blunt as possible, get half their heads blown off. its a truth of reality, and trying to cover it up, or 'protect' us from it, is just wrong.


From: UPEI or at home in S-Side, PEI | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2003 09:12 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pellaken

If your talking to me. Your welcome to be blunt I'm always I'd rather people be honest about what they are thinking then hypocrites.

Notice I didn't say it wasn't bad. All I was trying to was trying to prioritize, trying to deal with the truth that so many people are ignoring.

There is evil in the world but there is more evil. I think we should start the more evil first. First demand people come up to our standards and then we do have a lot of fixing of our own standards to do. There is a lot to demand of ourselves but there is more to demand from them. If we demand more from them then ourselves we are hypocrites but there is nothing wrong with demanding that they at least be equal.

I'll be blunt 1 death is tragic and sad and horrific but 10,000 deaths is exactly that, it's all that multiplied 10,000 times.
first. First demand people come up to our standards and then we do have alot of fixing of our own standards to do. There is alot to demand of ourselves but there is more to demand from them. If we demand more from them then ourselves we are hypocrites but there is nothing wrong with demanding that they at least be equal.

I'll be blunt 1 death is tragic and sad and horiffic but 10,000 deaths is exactly that, it's all that multiplied 10,000 times.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3214

posted 26 March 2003 12:09 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'll be blunt 1 death is tragic and sad and horiffic but 10,000 deaths is exactly that, it's all that multiplied 10,000 times.

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

-Joseph Stalin

That picture of the little Vietnamese girl running in agony from napalm wounds (which almost killed her) did more to drive home to middle America the horrific inhumanity of the Vietnam war than any number of deaths merely reported.

Sometimes it takes a single person to bring into focus what thousands--or even millions--of others are experiencing.

drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kindred
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3285

posted 26 March 2003 12:34 AM      Profile for Kindred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One looks at the photos and is struck by man's inhumanity to man - (meaning all genders, all races)and as shocking and sad as they can be, it serves to remind us to be more thoughtful of where we go, and how we go - to do no harm if we can help it. I think a lot of people dont stop to think of the reality of war and the suffering - only of the flag waving and parades and the welcome home to the "heros". We also have to remember how people in the war zone are affected by seeing these things - up close and personal, and feel compassion for everyone.

The soldiers cannot come home unscathed, perhaps it makes it a little more understandable why they take drugs - to block out the horrors they see, and the carange they are responsible for --

As someone said, they are only people, dead people, injured people, dying people, and we have to remember we are all of us, just people, and do the best job we can while we are here --

Some of these sites are fetish sites and I find that very distasteful and distrubing


From: British Columbia | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2003 12:39 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your absouletley right drgoodword

And I know stalins quote very well and I think it's horrible.

I know it may not be your intention but by agreeing to this your sort of saying killing a million is not as bad as killing one. It's to big for us to handle a million people should be able to get up and take care of themselves it's not our problem.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3214

posted 26 March 2003 12:49 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know it may not be your intention but by agreeing to this your sort of saying killing a million is not as bad as killing one.
(My bolded emphasis.)

You're kidding, right?

drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2003 12:53 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope so

Just trying to make things clear. It's just sad to see the world in such a stupid ignorant state.

And I'm still surprised that a million corpses we feel desenseatized. That we love watching blood and gore and we call it enterainment.

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 26 March 2003 01:02 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a reason why I changed my photo on my profile to the sad panda picture.

War isn't fun. And people like that boy (or girl?) who were killed, probably not even knowing why the bombs were falling, are the victims.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3859

posted 26 March 2003 01:53 AM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
I thought it was because you liked bears!
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 26 March 2003 03:14 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you always end up resorting to stupid, asinine comments when you don't have anything substantial to say? This isn't the first time you've popped off with something infantile and inane in a thread.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 26 March 2003 09:07 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come on, that's not helping. Back to the topic, folks.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
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posted 27 March 2003 02:59 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More photos of Iraqi's civilian war casualties from Iraq Peace Team.

drg


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paxamillion
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posted 27 March 2003 10:19 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, drg. I was just going to link them. Glad you beat me to it. Terrible stuff, that.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
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Babbler # 3214

posted 28 March 2003 05:32 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Today's Guardian Leader talks about war photos, and mentions the photo at the top of this thread in particular, indicating the Guardian published it in its paper today:

quote:
More questions: is the picture which we reproduce today of a dead child - his head half blown away- too disturbing to appear in a British newspaper? What impact does the Muslim Association of Britain hope for by carrying it on its web site, along with numerous other victims of the war? Why do American and British politicians - for the first time anyone can remember - invoke the Geneva convention in respect of photographs of prisoners taken captive? Why are the military authorities going to such lengths to prevent pictures of American coffins from appearing in European newspapers as they make their mournful journey home?

Some of the answers to these - and many more - questions are more obvious than others. At times of war governments do lie, do bully, do twist, do exploit, do suppress. Writers, photographers, cameramen and editors make difficult decisions against the clock. Readers and viewers are right to question everything they are told or shown. They are also sensible to question what they are not being told or shown.


The Muslim Association has a large collection of these devastating war photos.

drg


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Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 28 March 2003 09:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you've changed my mind on this completely, drgoodword (and others in this thread). Although I'm glad you're linking to them in order to give people a chance to prepare themselves before looking, or if they're vulnerable to that sort of thing, not to look at all if they can't.

I looked at all the pictures linked. They're heartbreaking.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
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posted 28 March 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I looked at all the pictures linked. They're heartbreaking.

I agree, Michelle...absolutely heartbreaking. And as a previous poster said, it reminds all of us working for peace what it is we're working for.

But your initial reaction of dismay is more than understandable...that first photo is truly wretched. It is as if the entire horror of this immoral war is captured in that one death.

drg


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged

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