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Author Topic: Rachel Corrie: Run over by an Israeli Bulldozer - Why?
Boinker
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posted 23 March 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for Boinker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has this been covered elsewhere?

Are they completely fucking insane?


From: The Junction | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 March 2003 10:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. Two threads full, here and here.

But since both are closed, I'll move this thread to the Middle East forum (which is where news about the Middle East should be posted) and people can keep talking about it there if they want to do so.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 11:03 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm personally curious as to why the home was being bulldozed, and what the occupants of the home had to say about it.
From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 March 2003 11:56 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe the term in fashion is "ethnic cleansing."
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 March 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is an investigation ongoing. Let's atleast se what it finds before being so willing to cast blame. Maybe it was deliberate or maybe it was an accident.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I am sure that the bulldozer driver will be found 'indirectly' repsonsible for the actions of the bulldozer, as Sharon was found 'indirectly' responsible for the actions of the Christian Felange in Sabra and Shatila.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 March 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey MD at least Israel has investigations a far site better than the justice meted out by Hamas to those suspected of collaboration. What is their fate...hearings, courts uh uh..a cruel murder.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 March 2003 08:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you would agree their methods are at least comparable?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moses
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posted 24 March 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for Moses     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
at least Israel has investigations
Sham investigations. What's the point? It's all PR.

From: Earth | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry wingnut, a comparison between Hamas and the Israeli government is not fair. Here is why:

Mishei, Hamas is not the elected, not the recognized government of the Palestinians, the PA is. As we have seen the PA has often taken on Hamas directly on the ground and in the hearts and minds of Palestinians. On the other hand the judicial inquirey into Sabra and Shatila was conducted by the recognized government of Israel. Why are you comparing apples and oranges, or are you simply trying to stack the ideological deck?

In that case I can talk about Baruch Goldstien as if he represents Israel. He didn't give his victims a trial either, he just shot them while they were praying as the IDF stood around with their mouths open.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 25 March 2003 04:47 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, I am sure that the bulldozer driver will be found 'indirectly' repsonsible for the actions of the bulldozer, as Sharon was found 'indirectly' responsible for the actions of the Christian Felange in Sabra and Shatila.

FYI, this is the same Christian Falange that is part of the ruling coalition government of Lebanon that is a Syrian puppet. Isn't it interesting that the Arabs claim that Sharon should be charged as a war criminal, while the people who actualkly did the killing sit around a cabinet table in Beirut alongside Muslims and no one seems to care.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 25 March 2003 07:37 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thousands of people have been killed by the Syrian Ba'th regime to keep itself in power. But say that out loud in Syria and you will be arrested. The entire middle east is in need of "regime change". Not many people in the west seem to care, unless there's something in it for them.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 25 March 2003 10:55 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Santana

Now your talking

You took the words from my mouth.

I think we can both agree though there is alot more to than that I got to go now but I'll explain my feelings soon.

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 25 March 2003 06:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have not very often been a fan of Honestreporting.com but again in the interests of balance I have attached its view on this tragedy FYI.

HonestReporting Communique
25 March 2003

"RACHEL CORRIE, CONTINUED"

* * *

Dear HonestReporting Member,

The circumstances of American college student Rachel Corrie's March 16
death beneath an IDF bulldozer in Gaza remain unclear. The key unanswered
question: Was Corrie visible and/or audible to the IDF driver just before
the accident?

The consumer public got a huge dose of misleading information when
Associated Press distributed a photo showing Corrie, standing in
(apparently) direct view of the bulldozer driver, dressed in orange and
speaking into a megaphone in the direction of the oncoming vehicle.

The AP caption reads: "Rachel was run over Sunday by the bulldozer that
she was trying to stop from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee
camp, witnesses said."

See the AP photo at:
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/362.asp

The problem with the AP photo caption is that readers are led to believe
that this photo depicts the very scene and moment of the accident. The
implication is criminal recklessness on the part of the IDF driver.

In fact, however, this photo was NOT taken in the moments before Corrie's
death. Joseph Smith, of the pro-Palestinian International Solidarity
Movement, was the photographer and wrote a chronological account of the
incident (published on pro-Palestinian websites).

Smith says that the photo of Corrie "standing with megaphone" is ascribed
to the time period 2pm-4pm. In addition, during this period, Smith notes
that the bulldozer "always stopped in time to avoid injuring them."

At the time of Corrie's death (5pm), Smith describes Corrie as "sitting,
with arms waving" (no megaphone), and another colleague holding the
megaphone from a distance.

Read Smith's account at:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1284.shtml

Thus, the AP photo and caption fails to note the two most essential
factors in determining visibility or lack thereof: 1) Corrie was no longer
standing, but had changed to a sitting position, and 2) she was no longer
in possession of attention-grabbing megaphone.

When publishing such a photo, AP is obligated to explain details of
chronology; in the absence of any information, readers presume that since
the bulldozer appears 8-10 feet away from Corrie, the photographer must
have snapped the picture moments before the bulldozer hit her.

This photo was published by many of the 15,000 media outlets that AP
services. And though the accompanying articles may provide clarifying
information, a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, by not
providing a caption that clearly counterbalances the easy "misread," AP
has misrepresented Corrie's death and contributed to a worldwide slander
of the IDF.

Please send comments to AP:
feedback@ap.org

* * *

An example of how the Corrie photo was misused appears in the CHRISTIAN
SCIENCE MONITOR, which ran this photo caption:

"Death of a protester: Rachel Corrie, wearing a reflective Day-Glo jacket,
shouts through a bullhorn at an oncoming Israeli army bulldozer in
southern Gaza Sunday moments before it ran her over."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0318/p06s01-wome.html

"Moments before"?!

Comments to:
oped@csps.com

* * *

Meanwhile, CNN.com juxtaposed a pair of "before and after" photos, which
implied a particularly ambiguous sense of chronology. But when
HonestReporting.com provided additional information, CNN issued a "Caption
Clarification." See it at:
http://cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index.html

HonestReporting encourages members to monitor your local media to see if
they used the misleading photos, as well as what information was provided
in the photo caption and/or article itself to counterbalance any
misconceptions.


---- DANZIGER CARTOON ----

In the wake of this media misstep, nationally syndicated political
cartoonist Jeff Danzinger issued a cartoon worthy of appearance in the
most entrenched anti-Semitic Mideast rags. Danziger depicts Prime Minister
Sharon as a satanic bulldozer driver, burying his critics under a mound of
dirt.

See the cartoon at:
http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/2003/danziger1600.html

Danzinger's presentation of Sharon as a murderer of political opposition
is particularly troubling in light of the fact that Sharon's is the only
truly democratic government in the Mideast, allowing -- even encouraging
-- full and vocal opposition. And this at a time when America is
sacrificing its soldiers in order to promote democracy in the region.

Danziger's cartoons are distributed by the Chicago Tribune Media
Syndicate, whose media relations director can be contacted at:
kbremer@tribune.com

Danziger himself may be reached at:
jeff@danzigercartoons.com


---- GHANDI AND KING? ----

Meanwhile, the Toledo (Ohio) Blade published an editorial that compares
Corrie with none less than Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr.

Did Corrie truly continue the legacy of Ghandi and King?

As noted in the previous HonestReporting communique, Corrie was
photographed last month burning an American flag in Gaza before young
schoolchildren (http://honestreporting.com/graphics/articles/corrie.jpg).
One wonders if the two true giants of human rights struggle would be
flattered by the comparison with the woman who appears in these photos.

Read the Toledo Blade editorial at:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2003103190095

Comments to the Managing Editor, Kurt Franck:
kfranck@theblade.com


---- CAMPUS DOUBLE STANDARD ----

A University of Maryland student newspaper has caused a stir by publishing
an editorial cartoon that depicts Corrie's actions as the definition of
stupidity for protecting a "gang of terrorists."

See the cartoon at:
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/364.asp

In response, Univ. of Maryland students staged an overnight sit-in
protest, the academic administration said the cartoon "embarrassed the
university" (http://honestreporting.com/a/r/365.asp), and Maryland's U.S.
Congressman Albert Wynn publicly expressed his criticism.

Without addressing the question of the editorial prudence of publishing
the cartoon, we ask: If the players in the event were reversed, and a
deceased Israeli were presented as "stupid," would the cartoon have
elicited such protests of outrage from campus, administrative, and public
officials? We highly doubt it.

Protest this double standard by writing to Univ. of Maryland President Dan
Mote:
awylie@deans.umd.edu

One step further: Learn more about becoming a campus activist in support
of Israel at: http://www.israelactivism.com

Thank you for your ongoing involvement in the battle against media bias.

HonestReporting.com


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 25 March 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Without addressing the question of the editorial prudence of publishing
the cartoon, we ask: If the players in the event were reversed, and a
deceased Israeli were presented as "stupid," would the cartoon have
elicited such protests of outrage from campus, administrative, and public
officials? We highly doubt it.

Twaddle. Given how the merest whiff of anti-Semetism is usually swiftly and resoundingly denounced and its perpatrators publicly pilloried, I find this little sob story a little hard to swallow. You know better than that Mishei.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 25 March 2003 09:11 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I know better than that" oooooo are you disciplining me? Give me a break. I posted this in the interests of balance. Something, Black_dog you clearly care little about. Disagree if you will but I will continue to present the other side at least to keep things fair if not interesting.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 25 March 2003 10:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They do call Sharon "the bulldozer".
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 25 March 2003 11:43 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
FYI, this is the same Christian Falange that is part of the ruling coalition government of Lebanon that is a Syrian puppet. Isn't it interesting that the Arabs claim that Sharon should be charged as a war criminal, while the people who actualkly did the killing sit around a cabinet table in Beirut alongside Muslims and no one seems to care.

An excelent point. I'd just like to add that a number of the top leadership of the Felange, who were actually in the camp at the time, died in sudden series of accidents and mysterious explosions after they agreed to testify in a Belgian court against Sharon.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moses
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posted 26 March 2003 07:57 AM      Profile for Moses     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A University of Maryland student newspaper has caused a stir by publishing
an editorial cartoon that depicts Corrie's actions as the definition of
stupidity for protecting a "gang of terrorists."

See the cartoon at:
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/364.asp


Who are you? Why do you post this crap? It's insensitive and offensive. And racist to boot.

From: Earth | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 08:56 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse me Moses what is it that is racist, the U of Maryland cartoon, the flap over it? This was a debate that went on the other week in the United States and yes I do believe that there were racist elements to it.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 12:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's not racist to post about a controversy surrounding a questionable cartoon, and that's all Mishei did.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Art J
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posted 26 March 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for Art J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a thread at freedominion.ca (Canada's version of Freepers) on this very same topic. Mishei's long post here is pretty much duplicated there. Coincidence? Hmmm..

Anyway, there's one valiant person that has been fending off the barbarous hordes there for a few days now.

freedominion thread (Rachel Corrie)


From: British Columbia Inc. - Let us Prey | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Art J
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posted 26 March 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for Art J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
..and could use some help from you wankers.
From: British Columbia Inc. - Let us Prey | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 26 March 2003 07:19 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I won't go back there. You can't make me.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Art J
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posted 26 March 2003 07:35 PM      Profile for Art J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*admiration*

Do you have any weapons of message board destruction you could lend me?


From: British Columbia Inc. - Let us Prey | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 26 March 2003 07:54 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does the software on which that board runs allow to you to nuke your own account?
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Art J
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posted 26 March 2003 08:31 PM      Profile for Art J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. That could work. A simple timing device.. and then, run like hell!!
From: British Columbia Inc. - Let us Prey | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moses
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posted 26 March 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for Moses     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's not racist to post about a controversy surrounding a questionable cartoon, and that's all Mishei did.
What controversy? How is it 'questionable'? It is an outright racist cartoon that also manages to disparage and shit on the death of a young woman protester, while insulting her bereaved family and friends. Only a morally-handicapped person could conceive it as merely 'questionable'. Get real.

From: Earth | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 March 2003 09:53 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's a thread at freedominion.ca (Canada's version of Freepers) on this very same topic. Mishei's long post here is pretty much duplicated there. Coincidence? Hmmm..
Never heard of the site and on glance its not my cup of tea.

People, the cartoon was awful I agree. On the other hand people on this Board have a right to see what others are saying and thinking. HonestReporting.com, where I found the post, certainly has its own agenda but you can read it and dispute it if you wish.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 March 2003 10:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think they were suggesting it was you on that board, Mishei (at least I hope they weren't) - I took it to mean that probably one of those copy-happy users may have lifted one of your posts and posted it verbatim there (of course not attributing it to anyone but him or herself).
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 March 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is another view of what may have happened.

Rachel Corrie


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 27 March 2003 05:40 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Talk about trying to deflect blame.

Pathetic.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 March 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh you may be right but also be prepared to accept the fact that you may be wrong. Keep an open mind.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 March 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is typical.
Just like Bart Simpson: "I didn't do it!"
And she can't wait ofr another "official IDF" whitewash. Oh, investigation.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 March 2003 05:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One wonders how mishei's columnist missed this:

quote:
I do believe it was intentional. I saw it, and I know he saw her, I know he did, and I know he knew she was still under the bulldozer when it backed up without raising its blade. I don't know if he wanted to kill her, or if he was just focused on doing his work and didn't care if he killed her or not, I don't know which is scarier. I don't feel like telling the whole detailed story right now. I promise that for the record I will tell it in detail, but give me a few days. I just want to quickly dispel a few myths you may have heard in the media. She did not "trip and fall" in front of the bulldozer. She sat down in front of it, well in advance, wearing one of the orange flouro jackets I got in Amsterdam. (By the way, I took the pictures you may have seen of her, standing with the megaphone in front of the bulldozer, and the ones of her friends helping her.)

* Italics mine.

Four eyewitnesses

**Edited to fix the link.

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 March 2003 06:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know how hard it is for many of you here to keep an open mind when it comes to ANYTHING to do with Israel but maybe you can try.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 27 March 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know how hard it is for many of you here to keep an open mind when it comes to ANYTHING to do with Israel but maybe you can try.

Umm, Mishei, I don't want to presume to put words in your mouth, but don't you mean:

"I know how hard it is for many of us here to keep an open mind when it comes to ANYTHING to do with Israel but maybe we can try."?

Or does keeping an open mind with respect to Israel only apply to others?

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 27 March 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei's article is so rife with fallacies its almost remarkable.
quote:
Rachel Corrie was one of a group of protestors attempting to disrupt the work of two IDF bulldozers leveling ground to detonate explosives in an area rife with terrorist activity.

Somehow demolishing a house becomes levelling ground. Strike one.

quote:
The real issue is was Rachel alive when she was taken by Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance to Martyr Mohammed Yousef An Najar Hospital? In other words, where did she die? Were adequate efforts made to save her in the hospital?

Nice attempt to pin the blame on the Palestinians, but no. Rachel didn't die in hospital. Initial accounts by eyewitnesses stated she died in the ambulance. Even if she didn't I doubt there is a doctor in the world who could have saved someone suffering the kind of injuries inflicted on her, let alone one in a hospital in the middle of a "war zone". Strike Two.

quote:
If there are pictures of Rachel before and after, why didnÕt the same photographer consider it important to document the act of the bulldozer running her down? Where is the mound of earth Rachel clambered up and was buried in? The woman shown lying bleeding from her nose and mouth is lying on a flat piece of ground, and sheÕs not covered in sand.


There's a picture on this account that shows Rachel buried by the bulldozer.Here Strike Three.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 March 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei's article is so rife with fallacies its almost remarkable.

This is not "Mishei's article". I didnt write it but offered it as another viewpoint.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 27 March 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know how hard it is for many of you here to keep an open mind when it comes to ANYTHING to do with Israel but maybe you can try.

I'm offended by that. I thought you should know.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 March 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slim sorry that you are offended by the truth.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 27 March 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Slim sorry that you are offended by the truth.

Shove it up your ass. Sideways.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 March 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You will have to offer some truth before slim can be offended by it. As for an open mind, try some dispassionate analysis instead of some wanker who earns a living penning propaganda.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 27 March 2003 06:20 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I didnt write it but offered it as another viewpoint.

Noted. Pollyanna sometimes posts articles full of inaccuracies because they offer different "viewpoints". Thanks for the tip.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 27 March 2003 06:26 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since subtelty escapes you, I'll try bluntness:

Mishei, why don't you try to keep an open mind about Israel?


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fatcalf
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posted 27 March 2003 08:25 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Simple lesson = don't travel to foreign countries and step right in front of heavy equipment operating in soft soil conditions.
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Mishei
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posted 27 March 2003 10:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would venture to say that I am more open minded about the PA as you are of Israel.
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Moredreads
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posted 27 March 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. Others may have restrained themselves, or so they say. Who are they kidding? Anyone who was there, and saw our soldiers in the houses, would understand they were in a death trap. I thought about saving them. I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.

Emphasis is my own.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 27 March 2003 11:25 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
What happened to Rachel Corrie happens every year in North America or Europe: someone gets in the way of heavy machinery, and unfortunately gets maimed or dies.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 27 March 2003 11:30 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What happened to Rachel Corrie happens every year in North America or Europe: someone gets in the way of heavy machinery, and unfortunately gets maimed or dies.
...and then there's an investigation, and the driver is heavily fined, and/or jailed for reckless endangerment causing death or homocide, and the company that operated the heavy machinery is fined and has to pay reparations to the victim's family.

From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 27 March 2003 11:41 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What happened to Rachel Corrie happens every year in North America or Europe: someone gets in the way of heavy machinery, and unfortunately gets maimed or dies.

The difference is that in Israel it is policy.


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Mishei
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posted 30 March 2003 09:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The difference is that in Israel it is policy.


It is precisiely rubbish statements likke this that make Jews cringe. Claiming it is policy that the Jewish state wilfully murders innocent people I believe sows the seeds of hate.

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DrConway
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posted 30 March 2003 09:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Israeli government certainly doesn't seem to do much to discourage "collateral damage", now does it?

Blasting an apartment building to get at one terrorist on the grounds that the other occupants were accomplices by nature of being Palestinian is just one example.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 30 March 2003 10:18 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Claiming it is policy that the Jewish state wilfully murders innocent people I believe sows the seeds of hate.

quote:
I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.

What part of: "It was all under orders," is incomprehensible. Orders are an expression of policy. Case closed.


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WingNut
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posted 30 March 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Claiming it is policy that the Jewish state wilfully murders innocent people I believe sows the seeds of hate.

I agree. Stop the hate. End the policy.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 08:41 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I recall back last year that Jeff Rose, Clay Ruby and Dr. Philip Berger pointed this tactic out as a reason they feared a rise in antisemitism.

Few here understood the issue and few still don't seem to get it.

NOBODY supports murder and terrorism. Israel at times may over-react to the threat but it is the country that must live day to day with the spectre of suicicide bombings.

It is not Israeli policy to murder innocent people. Those who continue to paint Israel, Israelis and the Jewish state as murderers perpetuate ongoing hatred. By all means critisize policy, condemn actions when condemnation is called for but sweeping statements portraying Israel as a murderous and evil state is just the same as those on the other side who portray all Palestinians as evil murdering terrorists and suicide bombers. STOP THE HATE!!


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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 08:58 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moshe Nissim says that he was under orders.
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satana
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posted 31 March 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think associating Judaism with Israel is anti-semitic.
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Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think associating Judaism with Israel is anti-semitic.
Frankly, I find this a disgusting and offensive remark. I think it has evil intent and is mischievious beyond necessity.

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googlymoogly
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posted 31 March 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The way I interpret the remark (correct me if I am wrong), is like this: it's like saying that the often reprehensible actions of, say, the Iranian government are representative of Islam. True Islam, as I understand it, is a religion of peace, and, for example, the persecution and murder of Iranian Baha'is, while said to be done in the name of Islam, cannot be claimed to be so, as true Islam is a religion of peace. I think the original poster of the remark may be making a similar remark about Israel/Judaism. I don't see any evil intent in satana's post.
Satana, please correct me if I am wrong in the way I am interpreting it

From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 05:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Googly you can interpret it any way you want the difference being that Israel is recognized by the vast majority of Jews as the Jewish state. Not so for the despotic regimes of Iran Iraq etc.It is in no way recognized as the "Islamic" states quite the contrary. We have been told so very often on this very Board that these states have no connection to real Islam.
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googlymoogly
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posted 31 March 2003 05:46 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's fine; I wasn't saying that the facts were the same in both examples (I know very well that they are not); I was just trying to show that the intentions behind the post (as I saw them) were not "evil", as you say.
From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 31 March 2003 05:48 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So it is not a secular state. Neither is Iran. They both persecute minorities. You're in the grocery store, Tide or ABC?
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Mishei
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posted 31 March 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Googly there is a bit of a history with Satana on Israel and I would like to give it the benefit of the doubt...its just too difficult.
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Moredreads
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posted 31 March 2003 07:49 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but Moshe Nissim said that he was 'under orders.'
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DrConway
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posted 01 April 2003 04:06 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel at times may over-react to the threat

Maybe if Israel didn't "over-react" on a regular basis such as blasting an apartment building to smithereens to get one terrorist with the flimsy justfication (and racist besides, but we'll leave that alone since the humor value of the justification diminishes when you start arguing about whether it's racist or not) that "the rest of the apartment building residents must have been accomplices because they were Palestinians who must have known that there was a terrorist in the building."

Never mind that that's the stupidest assertion I've seen in my life, what makes me roar with laughter is that people swallow that crap whole when they were the first ones to bounce up out of their chairs the millisecond the Soviets hauled out such a hoary old justification for going after innocent people on the basis of suspected linkages to "counter-revolutionary" groups.

You know, SSDD (same shit, different day) - "We had to arrest all the people on the floor of the collective apartment building because we in the KGB found that one person was engaging in counter-revolutionary activity".

At least the Soviets weren't stupid enough or ham-fisted enough to go levelling whole apartment buildings because one guy got busted with "counter-revolutionary" documents or something.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 01 April 2003 01:51 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, googlymoogly. Your interpretation is correct. I find Mishei's constant association of Israel's racist and oppressive policies with Judaism to be damaging to Jewish people and their beliefs. That, according to Mishei, many Jewish people do the same means that the damage is very deep.

[ edited to remove nasty misrepresentation ]

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 April 2003 11:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana there you go again lying through your ...OK one more time I have never stated that anyone was innocent...have I? Noooo you wish I would have said that but Satana, wishing something were true does not make it so.

Alas if this is the only way to make your point by misrepresenting me...well go ahead ...but honestly, people who can read, might see through this one

In fact why don't we just go back to the beginning of this thread when I said:

quote:
There is an investigation ongoing. Let's atleast se what it finds before being so willing to cast blame. Maybe it was deliberate or maybe it was an accident.
OOO somewhat different than what you posted Satana. I know you have difficulty with the concept of fairness when it comes to alleged Israeli wrong doing. But you know you should give it a chance you might find it refreshing.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 April 2003 11:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, that was pretty far into the twilight zone there, satana.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 02 April 2003 01:44 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok. I take back the second paragraph.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 April 2003 07:39 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for that much Satana.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 02 April 2003 07:56 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But Moshe Nissim said that he was 'under orders.'
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 April 2003 09:07 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And maybe Moshe Nissim was wrong or maybe the alleged orders were illegal. Let us see what the investigation uncovers.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 April 2003 09:29 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry but I think you may be a little off track: Moshe Nissim did Public Relations work for Israel in Jenin last year -- he did not run Rachel over. I thought the testimony was relevant to Rachel's case as he also drove a D9. Here is how he felt about his new job with the IDF Customer Relations department:

quote:
"Many people where inside houses we stto demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.

Here is a picture of some of the great work he and his friends were engaged in:

A close look at what Moshe has to say about his job might help answer the original question of this thread: Why did Rachel die?

[ 03 April 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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