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Author Topic: Progressive Racism
satana
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posted 21 March 2003 09:00 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Continued from "Mourning the death of Rachel"

quote:
Mishei: I have said it many times, most Jews are Zionists from the left like Rabbi Michael Lerner to many in the middle and on the right. So when you resort to this kind of name-calling you are actually condemmning even the many Jews on the left, who while they may be vociferously against Sharon and his tactics, are nonetheless proud and longtime Zionists.

I oppose racism regardless of who adopts it, what they call themselves, how many they are, how deeply it is entrenched, and wherever it may be.
I condemn its supporters left, right and centre.

Your pacifist rabbi and violent general both wish to force ethnic seperation, and revocation of basic human rights. One wants to avoid killing, the other doesn't mind. They may differ in their tactics, but they share the same principles.

It isn't violence that characterizes racism. Many racists are very nice people. They might even invite you to have dinner at their house. But they'll blanche at the suggestion of you moving next door, have a fit at the thought of you marrying their son or daughter. Because you are different or they are special. Now imagine this attitude institutionalized on a massive scale...

I wish all Zionists were like Michael Lerner but that still wouldn't make their form of discrimination any more acceptable. It still stinks whether it floats or sinks.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 21 March 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So to be a zionist is intrinsically racist?
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satana
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posted 21 March 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Zionism is nothing more than Jewish self-determination and return to their homeland in Palestine or anywhere, then no, it is not racist at all. Maybe long ago that is what Zionism was, but that is not what Zionism is today.

Today I see it as no more than Jewish supremacism. An ideology that justifies ethnic cleansing, displacing hundreds of thousands of people and denying their return. An ideology that can consider "population transfer" as a "final solution" to its problems, or rationalise fencing in an entire population based on ethnicity is definitly racist, just as racist as the last ideaology that rationalized the same.


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swallow
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posted 21 March 2003 01:33 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which ideology is that? Off the top of my head, i can think of half a dozen such ideologies in the past decade.
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Michelle
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posted 21 March 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then probably the ones you're thinking of, swallow, would be my guess.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 21 March 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Santna

that's the point real Zionisim is only self determantion to homeland it doesn't call for population transferr. I despise anyone who calls for population transferr as I do a terorrist or a NAZI. I said before and I said again I support a palistinian homeland too but somewhere along the line there has to be a compromise. The Jews need a homeland and the palistinians need a homeland.

I do agree with you there are many racist who would invite you into thier home and be sick at the thought of you marrying there daughter. But many zionist aren't like that I'm one of them. To me love has no boundries so one should do what he feels when it comes to that I will do nothing stop them maybe I myself may feel that way one day. I hope it won't matter. I do think though people need to have their own groups their sense of identity there own place that they can feel conected and call home. It doesn't mean they can't mix with other groups but it's always good to have a place to fall back too.

The issue of the right of return is a different complex matter. Hopefully one day perhaps they'll be away to allow the right of return with out feeling the identity being jeporadized but things take time it's sad it just can't happen like that.

I'd like to quote the stones in this case "You can't always get what you want but if you try sometime you may just get what you need"

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Justice
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posted 21 March 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has anybody thought what it be like? How they would feel if canada became one country with the inited states and all of a sudden our 30 million vote had the same weight as thier 300million?

Or what if 60million americans imigrated to canada and thier votes had the same wieght as our 30million?

I hope this make people understand the situation israel is in or at least give a little perspective of the way some people see it.


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WingNut
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posted 21 March 2003 04:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What if they did?
That is the nature of democracy.

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skdadl
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posted 21 March 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha ha. How would the Americans feel, much rather, suddenly facing such a heavy Democrat vote en bloc? Hee hee hee.
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lagatta
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posted 21 March 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the arrival of the Loyalists did produce such a demographic upset between French and English colonists.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 21 March 2003 09:01 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I don't think it would be a complete democrat bloc. If Canada and the United States merged, I could see a republican getting elected in the state of Alberta.

But seriously, bigotry on all levels must be fought. We must stop both the stereotypical white supremacist AND the pro-palestinian student protester who pretends like they are in it for the noble reasons that most are, except this particular person is really there becuase they secretly harbor a hatred for the Jews.

Racism transcends political boundaries, but nevertheless must be stopped.


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Justice
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posted 22 March 2003 03:06 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta

I think you just help to prove my point even better the don't the majority of French canadians want to seperate too??? Don't they deserve the right to have there own identity.

True it's about time israel stopped ocuppying palistine I admit but I geuss it's about time Canada stopped ocuppying Qubec.

If my little knowledge of Canadian history serves me right didn't Trudeau bring in the army when the French started a little uprising. Excuse me if I'm wrong about this I don't know that much about Canadian history.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 22 March 2003 03:51 AM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think you just help to prove my point even better the don't the majority of French canadians want to seperate too??? Don't they deserve the right to have there own identity.


A parallel doesn't really work. That's more akin to orthodox jews wanting a seperate israel than the non-orthodox jews. Or something.

A better comparison would be if the natives of Canada rose up and demanded a homeland after they were displaced. That I would also support, even if my house was on requested land.


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Justice
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posted 22 March 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still think it works but the Natives work quie well too.

Still how do you deal with people who act violently in the name of causes like these?

Is not better to give them a state of thier own? Do they not deserve it?


and what if they still keeping acting violently when your trying to find a compromise?
[ 22 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 22 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Cart
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posted 22 March 2003 11:18 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I still think it works but the Natives work quie well too.
Still how do you deal with people who act violently in the name of causes like these?

Is not better to give them a state of thier own? Do they not deserve it?


and what if they still keeping acting violently when your trying to find a compromise?


You can't judge it simply based on your criteria. If a select portion of, let's say, scots (I use this because I'm scottish by heritage so as not to single out any other race) rose up in say...banff alberta to demand a homeland there, it would simply be unreasonable to grant their wishes simply because they were violent.

It's because they have no case.

Now, say for the sake of your argument, they were granted a homeland in banff, and all the people who had lived in banff prior to were shipped out to jasper. The people who were kicked out of their homes would be very mad, and even though Jasper is a nice place and really close to Banff, it's still not banff and it's still not their home.

Now, let's imagine the scots decide banff isn't enough for them, so they start moving into Jasper; pulling in construction equipment and just start building houses.

Is it wrong for the people in jasper to be upset? So they start attacking those settlements by the scots in jasper.

The scots response is to use their army which, say, Scotland(not to draw parallels between America and Israel being jewish states, just for arguments sake) pays a good portion of to essentially place jasper under curfew and all the residents in it. And they do this through military force and the threat of military force.

The jasperinians fight back with 'terrorism'. The scots finally have enough, even though the death tolls of jasper and banff are 3 to 1, respectively. The scots decide they want peace, but their 'peace' is essentially aparthied rule, almost exactly what is currently happening. The jasperinians revolt and the violence continues.

Should the people of Jasper still not have a homeland and have to suffer through the encroachment of the Scots?


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Justice
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posted 22 March 2003 11:34 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1)Never denied them a homeland.

2) you still missed out some important parts of history. The jews were moved around from place to place for thousands of years Scottland is the scottish home by golly if the scottish wanted independce from britain I'd be for it. Just as the palistinans want indepencdce from Israel and I'm for it. But if the scottish decided that the whole of england is theres would that be right???

There was a partition plan in 1948 nobody was to be kicked out. all of Israels serrounding neighbours including Iraq and palistine attacked. Israel lets leave the debate of refugees out for a moment. Up until 1967 Gaza was occupied by Eygpt and The west bank by Jordan. I'm not saying the palistinans don't deserve a home land but there motive has to be questioned how come only after 1967 they decdied they needed to be lebirated?

I also addmit the settelments are a problem and I'am complettely against them and should be removed imdiatley but how putting up a fence to give a country security is apartiehed is beyond me especially when it can be eventually taken down.


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Justice
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posted 22 March 2003 11:37 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Basically we have 2 portions that have historic claim to this land rather then get bogged down in history of who has claim won't it be better to find a compromise like the one in 1948?
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 22 March 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, compromise is the only way things will work out.

But continuing to build settlements in the west bank is not a way to get the violence because of those settlements to stop.


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Justice
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posted 22 March 2003 11:59 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm all for stopping settelments. Stopping settelment should not be a prerequsite to stopping sucide bombings and Vise Versa.

They should both stop immediatley. However when a compromise was offered there reaction should have not been violence. If the offer was un acceptable then negotations should have continued. You can't expect a person to just negotiate under fire and not respond


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Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 12:03 AM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can't expect a person to just negotiate under fire and not respond

My thoughts exactly.


From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 12:10 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice lovely cart catch-22 eah

I'm speehless but o.k. you draw your own conclusion and who shot first.


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satana
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posted 23 March 2003 03:06 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not a bad person. I don't want to kill all your children. I realize you have a right to have them. So I'll make a painful concession and only kill one. And to prove my humane intentions I'll cut her up really quick. You can watch. Aren't I generous? Why aren't you smiling? Why won't you cooperate? I'm doing you a favor!
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Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 03:07 AM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't care who shot first, that's not the point.

It's who's going to stop shooting first.

A good way to get that to come about would be the stoppage of israeli settlement construction in the west bank.

Or hell, even just the removal of Israeli forces from palestinian land.

Sure you could say the palestinians should just stop blowing themselves up, but really, honestly, do you think that would give pause to israeli's building settlements, other than "hey, they stopped killing everyone, now it's even SAFER for me to be doing this."?


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satana
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posted 23 March 2003 03:11 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is the homeland of many Palestinian refugees. Much of it is also Palestinian land.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 March 2003 04:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was rather surprised to find this site, even though I knew that some Orthodox Rabbis are opposed to the existence of state of Israel:

http://www.netureikarta.org/

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 23 March 2003 05:28 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um ...what?
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Michelle
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posted 23 March 2003 08:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was one of the more surreal babble posts I've seen in a while.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 March 2003 09:07 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cart, your parable of the Scots in Banff and the Jasperinians just broke me up. I must send that to some cousins in Scotland, who will love it -- and, who knows? -- it might give them some ideas. (They've been to Banff and Jasper, and they might well have expansionist tendencies.)

(Did you know that the original Banff is in Scotland? Up east of Inverness, sticking out into the North Sea -- very pretty, but a little chilly and wet.)

And then I got to Qa-Bong. ! My, but this has taken an unusual turn for a Middle East thread, has it not?


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Michelle
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posted 23 March 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd be interested in seeing the link that al-Qa'bong likely MEANT to post.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 11:29 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong

Yes it's true about those rabbis they are fanatics, They believe that god has to wipe out everyone who is non jewish and then Judegment day will come and they can comeback to Israel.

Sanata

How much of it is their's I'd like to know? And your stupid example of "Humane" treatmeant come on how stupid do you think I am why do you think that what I'm saying implies that??? Collateral damage is one thing? Delibirate killing of civilians and dehumanization is another.

Cart

You are finally some one that is willing to speak with a little logic. I absouletley agree that the settelment have to be stopped and moved. But I still think that they could have negotiated from Baraks deal rather then use violence or even better from Rabbins deals. But that is Ancient history now. I do prey the labour party to rise someday hopefully it will be soon again and make a unilateral withdrawl just like Barak from Leabnon. However I still don't believe that the attacks will automaticly stop therefore Israel has a right to defened it's self and put a fence. Not even the leftist most party in Israel unless it's a complete Arab party would retreat withoout putting up fence. Not even Meretes who is generaly the party I vote for would do it.

Also Meretez would not agree to the right of return with out any obligations. Not Meretez not even the zionist peace movement "Peace Now" Because that would mean the destruction of IsraeL.

And yet I' still don't understand nobody has ever tried to explain how come the Palistinians didn't rise up before 1967 when Jordan and Eygpt were occupying their land is their something I missing in history? Will someone once and for all answer that question.

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Scout
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posted 23 March 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If my little knowledge of Canadian history serves me right didn't Trudeau bring in the army when the French started a little uprising. Excuse me if I'm wrong about this I don't know that much about Canadian history.

The FLQ kidnapped British trade commissioner James Cross, planted up to 50 bombs and killed 5 people in their quest for a non-democratic separation as well as kidnapping and murdering Pierre Laporte. The French didn't start a little uprising. A terrorist group attacked a country.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?U19811DE3

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Scout ]


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Trudeau didn't tolerate the FLQ and people expect Israel to tolerate the Hamas and other suich orginzations?

I just want to get things clear I admit I may not have a full understanding of the situation that happend in canada over 30 years ago


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DrConway
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posted 23 March 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And then in the end we just kicked them all over to Cuba.
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lagatta
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posted 23 March 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but the Federal government used the actions of a small group of terrorists as a pretext to clamp down on the broader "indépendentiste" movement, also the workers' movement and social protest movements including the FRAP (leftist municipal political party). Hundreds of people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the FLQ were arrested. And thousands of us have never forgotten the tanks in our city.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So your saying trudeau exgadurated and his actions were wrong?

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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skdadl
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posted 23 March 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will. I did at the time. And I was in Alberta and London, Eng., those two well-known centres of francophobia.
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lagatta
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posted 23 March 2003 02:05 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, absolutely. Trudeau was out to get the independence movement, and deliberately exaggerated the size and impact of the FLQ. Kidnapping is a matter for the police - there is no reason the criminal actions of a small and poorly organised group of terrorists couldn't be thwarted by effective police action. Sadly, the War Measures Act may have contributed to the killing of Laporte, believed by many historians to have been an accident (of course criminally culpable as murder since it occurred during a kidnapping).

It was a witchhunt. We have not forgotten.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And yet I' still don't understand nobody has ever tried to explain how come the Palistinians didn't rise up before 1967 when Jordan and Eygpt were occupying their land is their something I missing in history? Will someone once and for all answer that question.


Why didn't jews rise up for the last couple thousand years of their existance before 1947 when arabs were occupying their land?

I don't know, and I don't think it really matters.


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satana
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posted 23 March 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, I was only mocking your disgusting suggestion of compromising human rights.

Many proud German people were devasted when their country was defeated in WW2, and the Nazi party dismantled. The pain they felt with the destruction of their nationalist dream is understandable. I also understand your desire to protect Israel's supremacist character. It is a part of your identity. That doesn't mean I can accept it.


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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cart

Sure it matters the Jews were kicked and around from place to place for thousands of years. They were simply pushed out and beaten until after the holocust when the world finaly felt some guilt and found a little humanity and understood the Jews needed a homeland and Israel was where the belonged same as the palistinians need one now. So I explained the Jews side of it. Is anybody still willing to explain why the palestinians didn't rise up against the Jordiians or the Eygptians when the were occupying palistine? Could it be because the Jordinains and Eygptians treated them a 100 times worse and they had no hope?

Santna.

First of all I never suggested to compromise human rights those who do should be puished and pay attention to this according to the crime.

Second as bad as Israel is can't you admit that there are many many countries that are many many times worse then Israel don't you think Israel gets a little to much attention and things are distorted a little.

You know it's just like asking why is everyone focused on Iraq when there are plenty of other dictators. Thats fair but comparing Israel to Saddams Regime is way out of porpotion. People love to accuse israel of WMD's but when had Israel used them? Do you not think if israel didn't have such powerful army and WMD's that it would have been destroyed by now? The only place in the middle east where Arab citizens and I'm not talking about the west bank or Gaza Everybody agrees those palces don't belong to Israel the only people who think like that are about 200,000 fanatic settleres hardly a protion large enough to really make an impact on the other 5,800,000.

If I can accepet a palastianians right to homeland and make an effort yes a big effort to respect there human rights they can accepet Our Identity and our rights. But it seemes the only time they accepet anything and heaven for bid Israel act the way of any of its neighbours is when they brutally beaten and they have no hope.

Believe me I would never contiously support a regime like that and I would encourage force to remove it but the Israelie regime doesn't come near to some of the others I mentioned.

And as ugly as it is to say I'd rather live in a westernized state with some collateral damage then let a dictatorship go un challeneged and commit huge crimes against humanity. At least alot more people would have freedom and rights just like the one million arabs in Israel.

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 March 2003 06:53 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, you seem to have a serious problem with spelling and syntax. This is NOT a flame, it is simply difficult to understand what you are saying sometimes.

Babble doesn't have a spellcheck software, but you can compose your post in Word or whatever software you use, use the spelling and grammar correction software, then copy your post here.

I find it ironic that the mistreatment of Jews was infinitely worse in Europe (and in some countries with a strong European heritage, such as Argentina) than in the Arabo-Muslim world. Not that discrimination against Jews and other Dhimmi was unknown, but there was nothing comparable to genocidal pogroms, much less to the Holocaust. Why should a Third-World people that had had no part in the Holocaust have to pay for the crimes of the Nazis and their collaborators in Europe (or of the many nations in the Americas who said "None is too many" and refused to admit desperate Jewish and other antinazi refugees.

Tragically, the Israeli-Palestinian situation has given rise to anti-Jewish hatred in the Arabo-Muslim world. Why on earth should Palestine have been chosen as the homeland of the contemporary Jews, for the survivors of the Holocaust in DP camps in Europe? Shouldn't the guilty party have been forced to take on their resettlement?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 06:57 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Laggatta I'll try and make more of an effort I always knew I was better in public speaking then writting things down
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 07:04 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cart
Sure it matters the Jews were kicked and around from place to place for thousands of years. They were simply pushed out and beaten until after the holocust when the world finaly felt some guilt and found a little humanity and understood the Jews needed a homeland and Israel was where the belonged same as the palistinians need one now. So I explained the Jews side of it. Is anybody still willing to explain why the palestinians didn't rise up against the Jordiians or the Eygptians when the were occupying palistine? Could it be because the Jordinains and Eygptians treated them a 100 times worse and they had no hope?

I don't know why they didn't rise up, but I don't see how it matters, they are doing it now.

If the reasoning, for the sake of argument, is that the egpytians and Jordanians treated them 100 times worse, is your position that the lesser of two evils is righteous?


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lagatta
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posted 23 March 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm relieved that you didn't take that as a flame - the cut and paste method can be a big help, if you don't rely on the spellcheck blindly.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 07:16 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm relieved that you didn't take that as a flame - the cut and paste method can be a big help, if you don't rely on the spellcheck blindly.

I am too, I was going to point it out, but you made it sound much friendlier than I could've. heaven forbid I should be one to point out grammatical errors though.


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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 07:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That last question is very good one and very interesting. The idea was never to punish the Palestinians. The Jews always knew they belonged in Israel many of them tried to conform the real problem was they conformed to well and became successful every where they were so people started to feel Jealous. Similar to my belief that today that is one of the main reasons for anti-Semitism through out the western world. This is also the reason I feel why Israelis neighbors want to destroy it. Israel is small country with few natural resources. Some people will think that it's success is due to the Americans support this is untrue with out American support it wouldn't exist but for it to go on and succeed it need to be innovative it needs to have the will to survive. Maybe that’s the difference someone who has the will to survive tries to make his own situation as best he can. If the land is essential he gets it but mainly he makes due with what he has. The Israelis made due with they got but they did more then make due. That’s why they were attacked so many times Israelis neighbors wanted what they couldn't make. The Jews were attacked because they were different but even more so because they were successful. The Palestinians need a home land now because they are unable to make due with what they have. I'm not talking in Palestine but every where they're refugees. Most refugee problems are resolved and they become functioning parts of society with in a generation. And mean functioning and accommodated not assimilated or annihilated. Sadly for more then 3 generations Palestinians have not been able to function as a part of society where ever they were. This is not their fault it's not Israelis fault. It's the promises the other countries who promise to destroy Israel couldn't keep. Maybe I should give them credit for still trying.

I know this may leave you hanging but ask more questions try and be specific and I'll try and navigate from there.

I know many other people have other thoughts I'm one person I may make mistakes and I can't cover everything hopefully together we can try and Identify with each others sides come to understanding and maybe our own road map for peace. I already agreed that Israel should pull out it's troop from the west bank and Gaza and the Settlements too but Every Israeli knows it's not only legitimate but it is necessary to put up a fence for security reasons. Lets work from there.

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 07:19 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cart

No it isn't an excuse for not protecting human. You could also argue then because if Israel is wrong do they have the right to be wrong? It just puts other things into perspective. Shouldn't what we demand of ourselves be what we demand of other and vise versa?

Bottom line both Jews and the Palestinians deserve a homeland no matter what. Settlement are military incursions are not helping Israelis security and the Palestinian violence isn't helping them get a home land and no matter what it’s not justified.


[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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WingNut
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posted 23 March 2003 07:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That last question is very good one and very interesting. The idea was never to punish the Palestinians. The Jews always knew they belonged in Israel many of them tried to conform the real problem was they conformed to well and became successful every where they were so people started to feel Jealous. Similar to my belief that today that is one of the main reasons for anti-Semitism through out the western world. This is also the reason I feel why Israelis neighbors want to destroy it. Israel is small country with few natural resources. Some people will think that it's success is due to the Americans support this is untrue with out American support it wouldn't exist but for it to go on and succeed it need to be innovative it needs to have the will to survive. Maybe that’s the difference someone who has the will to survive tries to make his own situation as best he can. If the land is essential he gets it but mainly he makes due with what he has. The Israelis made due with they got but they did more then make due. That’s why they were attacked so many times Israelis neighbors wanted what they couldn't make. The Jews were attacked because they were different but even more so because they were successful. The Palestinians need a home land now because they are unable to make due with what they have. I'm not talking in Palestine but every where they're refugees. Most refugee problems are resolved and they become functioning parts of society with in a generation. And mean functioning and accommodated not assimilated or annihilated. Sadly for more then 3 generations Palestinians have not been able to function as a part of society where ever they were. This is not their fault it's not Israelis fault. It's the promises the other countries who promise to destroy Israel couldn't keep. Maybe I should give them credit for still trying.

Read that again changing Israeli for Aryan and Palestinian for Jew and wonder what year it is.


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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 07:52 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut

That doesn't even come close how dare you even try and compare.

How many times do we have to make you see that Arabs in Israel have equal rights?

That the vast majority of Jews don't want to be in Palestine, Make an effort not to violate human rights and try to compromise, The Aryans just wanted to destroy transfer or destroy.

It's like I said people wanted to assimilate the Jews or annihilate nobody wanted to let them be Jewish. I don't see the Jews really trying to stop the Palestinians from being Palestinian.

Yes what there really trying to do is destroy Israel not liberate themselves. Look at Santnas comments on the thread “Hamas Palestinians clash”

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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WingNut
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posted 23 March 2003 07:59 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, sure, it is different. It is always different.
Palestinians in Israel have equal rights? Really? You live in a fantasy.

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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 08:00 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arabs in Israel I didn't say Palestine.

And it does make a difference when they are trying to compromise and not destroy

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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WingNut
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posted 23 March 2003 08:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Arabs, have equal rights in Israel. Oh. Were not some of their political representatives prevented for running in the last election? Is that an example of equal rights? Do you have more examples.

Why ido you condemn Palestinian violence but rationalize Israeli violence? I mean, believing and equal rights and everything.


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fatcalf
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posted 23 March 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Israelis don't strap bombs to their backs and blow up kids at pizza joints.
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DrConway
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posted 23 March 2003 08:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They don't have to. They have an army that swats flies with Buicks.
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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 08:33 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did I rationalize Israeli violence???

At least not all of it there is something to be said for a country that has the fire power that Israel has and not use. Where there is no doubt the Hamas would and Arafat probably would.

There were also Jews that were denied from running in last year elections, opposite side spectrum same reasons.


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WingNut
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posted 23 March 2003 08:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinians don't occupy Israeli towns, bulldoxe their homes, beat their children or fire missiles into apartment blocks. They don't steal Israeli drinking water for swimming pools, fence all Israelis into a giant prison, and leave them to slowly die from malnutrition. They don't brutalize and dehumanize them daily. They don't degrade them and hurt them for sport.
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fatcalf
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posted 23 March 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Didn't Arafat, long ago, draft a Charter that endorsed sweeping the Israelis from the land, into the sea?
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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 08:44 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some Israeli's may get out of hand this is not a trend and this is not condoned by the government. Efforts are made to stop this. One such effort is the fact that in Israel there is a free press. This should cover the beating of children and degrading and hurting of Palestinians for sport.

Usually the missiles hit their targets "Terrorists" Sometimes mistakes are made.

Stealing water? Show me proof.

If your talking about a fence around the West bank and Gaza. I guess you think terrorist should be allowed to kill Israeli's freely? If you’re talking about refugee camps well then maybe I'll agree.

Let them slowly die from malnutrition? More humanitarian aid is coming from Israel then Arafat.

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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flotsom
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posted 23 March 2003 08:52 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel racist?

In Israel even the dark-skinned Yemeni Jews have their segregated living compound on the outskirts of Tel Aviv. My girlfriend was a Jewish woman from Yemen who lived in the segregated compound for Yemeni Jews that stands on the outskirts of Tel Aviv. She was a nurse. Apparently it is very difficult for Yemeni nurses to rise above Nurses' Aid in Israel, despite whatever qualifications they might have. Walk down Allenby. Stroll along Dizengoff. Visit the souks. You hear this constantly "the Arabs are dogs, they live like animals, why should we treat them like human-beings?" "They are cockroaches! We should kill them all, because we are strong!" Time and time again I was confronted by the endemic racism of the Israeli shopkeeper or the so-called man-in-the-street. Surprisingly enough though, it is a common site in the old city to see at the end of the day the rabbi and the Imam walking arm in arm through Jaffa Gate in warm animated discussion. They have probably shared together a life-long friendship. Irony of ironies; along the Via Dolorosa, in the streets of Jerusalem, there are many arab children who apparently do not go to school. These children work at their family shops, selling carved wooden camels or cassettes of the latest Jordanian pop sensation. Stones rain down on their heads like clockwork. It is as common as are the games of backgammon in front of the New Hashemi Hotel. The stones are thrown from the crumbling roof-top school-yard far above; from the young children of american emigrees who shout down their contempt for the young and long-suffering arab boys, mocking the poverty of their cloths, and their apparent misfortune for having been born an Arab in Israel.

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: flotsom ]


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lagatta
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posted 23 March 2003 08:58 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a problem with the idea that anti-semitism was caused by Jews "conforming too well, and being too successful." There is a sadly ironic relationship between the emancipation of the Jews after the French Revolution and the developement of "racial" (as opposed to religious) hatred. A bit complex to get into here.

The vast majority of the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators were not "successful". They were very poor people in the shetls and ghettoes of Poland and other Eastern European countries. Actually, a far higher percentage of German and Austrian Jews were able to flee, both because they were better integrated into society and often had some savings - not necessarily meaning they were rich by any means - and because they had more of a warning before discrimination became outright genocide. Almost all the Polish Jews were murdered.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 09:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More of Arabs go to school in Israel then in any Arab state. My sister goes to university with them lives next door to them in Lod.

She works as a nurse treats the wounded that come in from Gang wars between 2 Arab families in Lod and Ramle (Not to be confused with Ramallah).

My father is a tour guide he would bring tourist to the Arab shops in Bethlehem in Jerusalem even in the Sinai and Petra before the recent violence.
He was very friendly with one of the shop keepers. He offered to have his family over for dinner. The shop keeper kindly refused. He told my father he couldn't for fear his neighbors would think he's a collaborator and hurt him or his family.

I ask you in how many school in Israel are Jewish children taught that it is good to kill Arabs Verses the amount of school in Palestine that children are taught it is good to kill Jews.

You talk about random incidents I talk about a trend that is condoned by many groups.


Talk about Racisim???


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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 09:08 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta

I'm sorry but I didn't understand the point you were trying to make. Why do you think it is then the Jews were treated the way they were?


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flotsom
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posted 23 March 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
More of Arabs go to school in Israel then in any Arab state

Show me a source for this claim you make.

I'm not talking of "random events" I'm telling of fourteen months of experience.

Did you just call me a racist?


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Cart
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posted 23 March 2003 09:24 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did you just call me a racist?

I don't think he did, regardless, let's try to keep this as civil as it has been, it's been a very good discussion.


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WingNut
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posted 23 March 2003 09:50 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I ask you in how many school in Israel are Jewish children taught that it is good to kill Arabs

Isn't this what the army reaches them? Isn''t this what they learn every time Sharon makes reference to "Palestinian terrorism" as though to be Palestininian is to be a terrorist?

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Michelle
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posted 23 March 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly, WingNut.
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lagatta
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posted 23 March 2003 10:29 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, we could start an entire thread on the history of anti-semitism. I really am too tired - and don' t have the energy - to get into it here and now. Perhaps we should start a thread on "ideas".
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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 10:36 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe the Palistinian school system is doing a much better Job take a look for yourself.

Hate taught in Palistine


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WingNut
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posted 23 March 2003 10:41 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the willingness of Israelis to occupy a people and brutalize them and support a government pledging to imprison them in a giant camp depriving them of food and water, I would say Israeli is doing a greta job of teaching hate.
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Justice
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posted 23 March 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Once again deprive of food water? Israel more aid to the palistinian people then arafat for God sake they've given blood and organs to the Palistinians. If they were that bad they put a complete siege. Did you even see the link I sent you?

Aid

Take a look at this aid link I got for you well your at it.

Yes if we kill more Israeli's they'll give us even more organs that we can use. (Warning I'm not implying their stealing organs That would be dehumanizing and wrong. It Just that it sounds a little ungrateful to me)

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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DrConway
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posted 24 March 2003 01:11 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but the basic point is that you're not seeing the inherently self-contradictory nature of some of your statements about the Israeli government's actions.

On the one hand, you state, for example:

quote:
Once again deprive of food water? Israel more aid to the palistinian people then arafat for God sake they've given blood and organs to the Palistinians.

If Israel really is giving quite a lot of aid to the Palestinian-Arabs in the form of blood and organs, wouldn't it seem to be a bit ironic, then, that the Israelis should be so intent on engaging in behaviors which make it necessary to send in extra blood and organs in the first place?

It's almost like they would prefer to keep the battle going because that's all they know how to handle the paradigm they're in.


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satana
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posted 24 March 2003 06:54 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even if the a million Arabs in Israel had equality, that is no excuse to deny the rest the Arabs with homes in Israel citizenship or even residence.
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Justice
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posted 24 March 2003 10:06 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Santana


You already said that all of Israel belongs to the palistinains so there is no point in going on from there.

DrConway

No I don't because the intent is not to make the palistinains suffer the intent is to fight terorrisim. The people who are really making the Palistinians suffer are the terorrist and corupt goverment.


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Moredreads
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posted 24 March 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have to agree the way Israel is governing the Palestinians is corrupt.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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satana
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posted 24 March 2003 03:00 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel belongs to the Palestinian refugees just as much as belongs to Israelis. If you can't accept that refugees have right to return to their homes because of their ethnicity, then you are clearly racist. And there is no point denying it.
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Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 03:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, can we stop calling each other racist? I know it's a heated debate and I understand the passion behind it, but let's try.
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satana
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posted 24 March 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is about racism. A kind of racism that has become mainstream in our society. I find it deeply disturbing. I think some people aren't aware of it, and I feel its important to point it out.
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Michelle
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posted 24 March 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, so point out racist ideas without calling specific babblers racist, how about that?
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Cart
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posted 24 March 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I kind of agree with michelle, and I kinda agree with satana.

I'd hate for this discussion to turn into flames, because it's one of the best threads on the forum, but on the other hand, if it's a spade...


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satana
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posted 24 March 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK. *deep breath*
I'll try again.

People have a right to a home. They have a right to leave their home and when they do they have a right to return to their home no matter how long they have left. This right applies to all people of all ethnicities, everywhere in the world. There are no exceptions or conditions. Denying the right of anyone to return to their home is a crime. Denying the right of return on the basis of ethnicity is racism. And denying this right is a justification of ethnic cleansing. This is why we have this right.

When Israel was created many people living in the region left their homes. Lets not nitpick about how many, why or how. The fact is that people left their homes with the intention of returning. They have not been allowed to return and have become refugees. These people have a right to return to their homes. Today these homes exist inside Israel. That right to return still applies regardless of who has sovereignty in the region. Even after 50 years of waiting, even after 500. Recognizing this is not a "complex" matter. This is not something you can "compromise". It has nothing to do a Jewish state or Arab state, or where the borders should be, or which ethnic group is the majority. All these things are irrelevant to the right of return.

Israel denies the right of return for these people because they are not Jewish. This policy is racist. Supporting Israel while it continues this policy is racist. And supporting any agreement or "peace" plan that denies the right of return is racist.


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Justice
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posted 24 March 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all I didn't say they didn't have a right of return.I said a compromise is needed to be found because you can't just kick everybody out and start rearanging things back to the way the were you can't the wheel backwards.

"Don't do on to others, what you don't done on to you" I think Everyone in the region should have learned that after so many wars.

Maybe I exgduraded a bit and for that I appolgize but I can't accepet the fact that there isn't as much Justification for a Jewish/Israeli state in the middle east as much as there is a palistinian. First we must ask how can we creat to viable states to co-exsist side by side. Then it's a much more difficult question to deal with the right of return because you must insure that nither state loses it's make up and nither state forces anyone to be second class citizenes.

You can't expect any Jews to really move out of Israel.

Maybe if enough are killed they will run but that is a crime against humanity. Figure it out from the other offer me a solution that makes sense don't go back in history for Justification. The palce has holy and important sites to both peoples thats all we need to know from history. More then that and you'll never get out of it.

[ 24 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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satana
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posted 25 March 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
you can't just kick everybody out and start rearanging things back to the way the were
Of course not. No one said anything about about kicking people out or rearranging anything till you suggested removing settlements, which I don't think solves the root problem.
No one wants to kick anyone out. The right of return does not mean, and must not mean displacing others. (Is this some kind Zionist concept?). I think if you talked with Palestinians they would tell that they don't want Jews to leave the land. Even Moslem fundamentalists will tell you that.
quote:
I can't accepet the fact that there isn't as much Justification for a Jewish/Israeli state in the middle east as much as there is a palistinian
What is an Israeli/Jewish state and what is a Palestinian/Arab state? Do you mean these states must officially have a majority of a certain ethnic group? Do you mean that human rights may be compromised to sustain that ethnic majority? Israel's Jewish majority was created and is maintained by denying many former Arab residents in the region from returning to their homes. This is a form of ethnic cleansing. Are you saying that this is justified?

You mentioned earlier the idea of "homeland", and you seem to confuse this with "state" (Another problem with Zionism?). These concepts are very different. A homeland is the place where you come from, the place where the group of people you belong to call home.
The region from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean, has always been a Jewish homeland. There have always been Jews living in the region and has always been called a home by Jewish people. When it was ruled by Moslems, or Christians, or when the majority of people in the region were Romans or Arabs, the idea of homeland doesn't change.
A homeland is not exclusive. This entire region is also the homeland of Palestinian Arabs. When it was controlled by Turks, British, or Zionists, the land called Palestine and then Israel remains the Palestinian Arab homeland.
Jews have no right to remove non-Jews from their homeland, and Arabs have no right to remove non-Arabs from their homeland.

So how do you resolve your conflict?

First you must forget the idea of ethnicly exclusive states. This a racist concept and is the cause of your difficulty finding a fair solution.
Making up for human rights violations by violating more rights can never create peace, but would rather perpetuate the cycle of violence.

A just solution that will acheive real lasting peace once and for all will mean both people will have sacrafice any concept of exclusive claim to the land. Israeli Jews will have to accept Palestinian refugees returning and living among them as equals. And Palestinians will have to accept the equal right of all Jews to live on the land with them.


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Justice
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posted 25 March 2003 09:54 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your final statement is truly Just but do you really believe it's possible?

I talked to many Palestinians in my life and I know the majority couldn't care less about who lives where.

But also if you believe that a state shouldn't have an ethnic identity then. It wouldn't matter if Canada were a part of the states? And what is the war about in Chechnya? If this truly didn’t matter then there would be a lot less wars in the world and the Palestinians as long as they were treated as equal in places like Lebanon or Syria or Jordan etc… wouldn’t care about returning to Palestine.

I would love it to be as you said, but the reality is atheists are minority in the world, I'm secular but I still have my beliefs and Identity. I can stand here with a group of Arabs in Canada and can see them all as my equal there are all people and I treat them as I would any other person but I still feel a certain connection a special sense of security with my ethnic background and tradition as I feel even safer and more comfortable with my family. If I were meeting an Alien I might feel O.K. with being around it but I still feel better around a person no matter where that person come or who he/she was there would be something in common that defines us. It's important that everyone have an Identity and an identity is made up a lot of different things.

2 other important points

One you mentioned in another thread that many regimes need to be changed I believe this is true and it is necessary I also feel that if this occurs the Palestinian Israeli issue would greatly be advanced because the bigger human rights issues would cease to exist.

Two at the moment I wish I could believe that it didn't matter who governed the country. I hear some Palestinians see "We don't mind if you live in our land, but we don't want to live in your land" Meaning they want control. I accept that but Israelis still deserve then control over a land of their own. As well I still haven't seen in proof that they are willing really to let Israeli's live in their land as equal citizens. In no other Arab state is a Jew treated equal. Arabs in Israel are treated as equals most of the time it still needs work but at least I'm honest. In some ways they are treated more then equal because they don't all have to serve in the army, Druze and Bedouins do serve because that is their tradition to be loyal to the country that they’re in. Israel would never ask an Arab Israeli to serve because it is unjust to ask someone to fight against his own brother. And knowing the situation in the mid-east if and Arab served in the Israeli army that situation may easily arise

[ 25 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 26 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 25 March 2003 10:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As a defendant of nationalism and the nation-state, it is eminently clear to me that if there is to be a Jewish nation then there should also be an Arab nation. If there is not to be a Jewish nation then there should not be an Arab nation either.

The names for the pathways I note above are, respectively, the two-state solution and the single-state solution.

Either is acceptable in the paradigm of nationalism.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3859

posted 25 March 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
But answer this:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000241


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 27 March 2003 09:51 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Justice: Your final statement is truly Just but do you really believe it's possible?
Well, then, when you recognize justice, do you think it is acceptable to demand anything less, when you know that anything less is injustice?
Not only is the just solution possible, I believe it is innevitable. Any resolutions, peace plans, road maps, and negotiations that do not lead to peaceful coexistence on the same land will only protract the conflict.

quote:
... if you believe that a state shouldn't have an ethnic identity then ...
I didn't say a state shouldn't have an ethnic identity. I'm saying that when someone's identity is in conflict with the rights of another that identity must be changed. This is really important, and is the main idea behind starting this thread. It is a question of values. What is more important to you: the prosperity of your own people or the equal rights of all people? Both require accepting difficult consequences. It is not an easy decision. There are many people even on the so-called progressive left who still refuse to accept the real sacrafice that equality demands. Thus the title of the thread.

quote:
the reality is atheists are minority in the world
I don't understand how atheism got into this discussion. (I am not an atheist nor a secularist for that matter) Though, I find that many atheist nationalists on both sides are the among the most opposed to a just solution. The majority of Palestinians are Moslems and as you may have observed a just solution is all most them are asking for. There are also many religious and non-religious Jews who also want the same thing. I'm sure they all feel the same way you do about identity, beliefs, ethnicity and family. Identity as a sense of belonging to a group is an inextricable part of what makes us human beings. No one can dismiss its importance in any situation. Your identity is not diminished among a large group of people with a different identity. Your identity may develop as you adapt to your environment, but it remains a part of you anywhere you are.

The question is, does your identity conflict with the rights of other people? In the case of identifying with an exclusively Jewish state in Palestine/Israel, then your identity is in conflict with the right of non-Jewish people to a home in that land. Either this identity must adapt to accept non-Jews as equals or pretensions to equality and justice must be abandoned.

If Canadian nationalism meant the forced expulsion of Alliance party members to the US, then to hell with Canada. I'll burn the maple leaf flag and gladly welcome joining the US. My identity as a Canadian doesn't override my belief in equality and human rights.

quote:
...many regimes need to be changed...
You should be careful what you wish for, unless, by change you mean more oppression. The corrupt, autocratic middle-east regimes existing today are probably the only thing keeping masses of Arabs from charging Israel's borders. Real democracy for Arabs in the middle-east will be the death of Zionism one way or the other. I'd prefer justice be achieved peacefully.

As for the "bigger" human rights issues, You can't get much bigger than the right of return. It is the human rights issue for most Palestinians. And you don't have to go far to realize that. Palestinians in North America enjoy a high standard of civil rights, but they will tell you the right to return to their homeland is still a priority for them. You just explained how identity is so important to you, so must understand that the streets, hills and orchards of Israel/Palestine are a part of Palestinians', as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by "control". But if "control" is at the expense of other people's rights than that kind of control should not be allowed. The intolerance of others do not justify intolerance in return.

(and Arabs are often asked to fight against their brothers. look at the Arab states, look at the PA! But if these people had equality they wouldn't have to fight anyone.)

DrC, I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts on the thread "Nationalism".

[ 27 March 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


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