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Author Topic: Mourning the death of Rachel
cynic
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Babbler # 2857

posted 19 March 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some tried, but the IDF had other ideas

Mishei and others have complained at the inordinate amount of attention this incident has generated. I guess when Rosa Parks wouldn't give up her seat everyone should have just let it pass. Then again, even the evil purveyors of segregation didn't run Rosa over with a fucking bulldozer.


From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 19 March 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it is horrible to interrupt a memorial service.

However, Cynic, don't forget your history. Rosa Parks wasn't killed, but a lot of black people were lynched by the KKK and several freedom riders were tortured and/or murdered, whites (mostly Jewish, by the way) as well as blacks.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 19 March 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just when I think humanity has reached its lowest point, something comes along to show me that things can, in fact, get worse.
quote:
"People were laying carnations at the spot where Rachel was killed when a tank came and fired teargas right on them. Then a core group of the peace activists took an ISM cloth banner to the fence and pinned it up.

"The tank chased after them trying to stop them with teargas but the wind was against the army," she said.

Tensions rose further when a convoy of vehicles, including the bulldozer that killed Ms Corrie, passed the area.


Fucking thugs. A pox on them.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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Babbler # 2946

posted 19 March 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, they're not really doing much to aid in the story that it was an accident.
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 March 2003 06:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just when I think humanity has reached its lowest point, something comes along to show me that things can, in fact, get worse.

I'll say.

College kids having some fun

[ 19 March 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 19 March 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Time to start bombarding that particular little shit-rag with hate mail.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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Babbler # 3012

posted 19 March 2003 08:18 PM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They are already being bombarded.
From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 March 2003 08:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They have a point about the first amendment. Too bad mainstream media are not so fastidious about the first amendment when it comes to publishing alternative viewpoints.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 March 2003 09:31 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's never too late. Continue to bombard the nazi fuckers until they shut down their hate site.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Natalie Anne Lanoville
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posted 19 March 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for Natalie Anne Lanoville     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
lagatta, to whom are you referring?

Natalie.


From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 19 March 2003 09:57 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
You can't just defend free speech when it's pleasant or to your liking. Is this cartoon insensitive? Yes. Would most editors send this cartoon back to the drawing board? Yes.

Is the act of extinguishing your young, promising life in an act of civil disobedience stupid (ie. unwise)? In my opinion, yes. She would have served her cause better by staying alive.

Calling this cartoon a nazi hate crime is a little over-the-top.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 March 2003 10:28 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
.... plonk!!!!.....

Oh, Natalie, I meant the nazoid cartoonist and the idiot who published him.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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Babbler # 3859

posted 19 March 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Plonk yourself, La Gatt!
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 19 March 2003 10:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is the act of extinguishing your young, promising life in an act of civil disobedience stupid (ie. unwise)? In my opinion, yes. She would have served her cause better by staying alive.

Hmmmm. And when that lone chinese man stood before the tank in Tiannamen square no doubt he was unwise also, eh?

Too bad you will never understand true courage.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 19 March 2003 10:42 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Too bad you will never understand true courage.

Wingnut, I suppose you're one of those guys who marvels over Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire, or people jumping off buildings for the cause, whatever it is. I don't call it courage -- I call it futility, misguided futility.

But, oh great one, why don't you illuminate the rest of us cowards vis a vis the heroic highlights of your existence. Do these events fill a great book somewhere?


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 March 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to mention a good friend of mine, now very old, who was a Resistance fighter in France in the Second World War, as a very young man. He showed me the rather overblown, romantic poetry he wrote back then. Rather painful stuff. The parents of a young woman comrade of his reminisced, after he had saved them all (they were Jewish) from the SS, calling him "oh, that young man who laughed all the time".

I have no patience for vicious right-wing trolls. Rachel is the same age as the son of my sweetie - and he is planning to be a peaceful observer there or elsewhere. He was taught well, NEVER to assent to oppression, as was she.

Don't mourn, ORGANISE!!!!


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 19 March 2003 11:28 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hmmmm. And when that lone chinese man stood before the tank in Tiannamen square no doubt he was unwise also, eh?

Wingnut, I asked the same question and others in the Protester Killed by IDF thread. I notice it still hasn't been answered.

Edited to add:

quote:
Not to mention a good friend of mine, now very old, who was a Resistance fighter in France in the Second World War

Interesting that these are concidered heroes by so many of the vicious right-wing trolls, when people fighting non-violently against equally dismal odds with equally dismal penalties for capture all over the world are considered with contempt by these same moral defectives.

[ 19 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Wizard of Socialism
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Babbler # 2912

posted 19 March 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for The Wizard of Socialism   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The cartoon is disgusting. I may be a churl, but I would never make fun of the fallen.
From: A Proud Canadian! | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 March 2003 11:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, I wouldn't either. I think it was pretty tasteless as well.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 19 March 2003 11:38 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found the cartoon mean-spirited and tasteless in the extreme, but no more so than some of the posts in the threads that recognize this courageous and (from her writings) intelligent young woman.

Unfortunately, this is when those of us who believe in freedom of expression have re-examine yet again how we find ourselves defending people who place so little value on a human life.


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 19 March 2003 11:56 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Pir-o-Murshid `Inayat Khan:

In the spirit of the thread title,

quote:

O Thou,
the Cause and Effect of the Whole universe
the Source from whence we have come
and the Goal toward which all are bound:
receive this soul, who is coming to Thee,
into Thy parental arms.

May Thy forgiving Glance heal her heart.
Lift her from the denseness of the earth.
Surround her with the Light of Thy Spirit.
Raise her up to heaven,
which is her true dwelling place.

We pray Thee, grant her the blessing
of Thy most exalted Presence.
May her life upon earth become as a dream
to her waking soul,
And let her thirsting eyes behold
the glorious vision of Thy Sunshine

Amen



From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 20 March 2003 12:20 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fathead, in case you didn't notice the title of this thread is "Mourning the death of Rachel". If you really feel the need to pollute the board with your vile hatred, start a new thread. I'm not going to suggest a title, but I suspect your tiny brain combined with your black heart can come up with something sufficiently offensive.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 20 March 2003 12:27 AM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Bite me, Scaramouche Baby -- I wasn't the one who introduced an off-colour cartoon into this thread -- get your facts right. And I'm sorry if you're ready to ditch freedom of expression, when that particular expression doesn't meet with your approval. You have no concept of democracy. Too bad for you.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 March 2003 12:37 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can read, fatcalf. The cartoon was introduced to show us how low some people have gone in blaming Rachel for her own murder. It was incredibly offensive, as the mail sent to the publisher indicates. You have been no less offensive in your posts on the subject. You still have the right to post your vile thoughts. If you can't take people shouting you down as you dance on her grave, perhaps you shouldn't play here.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 20 March 2003 01:27 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bite me, Scaramouche Baby

Your language continues to deteriorate. If this does not cure itself soon I shall be forced to request that the moderator assist in the surgical poor-language removal procedure.

*calls to his assistant in the distance for a scalpel*


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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Babbler # 3859

posted 20 March 2003 01:39 AM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
You think "bite me" is bad language? Scroll up the thread and you'll find expletives far worse than this!

Example from above:

quote:
Fucking thugs. A pox on them.

[ 20 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 20 March 2003 01:58 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What part of the words "ad hominem" do you not understand?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 March 2003 02:30 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, enough. As much as I disagree with fatcalf, first of all, this thread was NOT just started to mourn her death. A political statement was made from the beginning in the first post, and is therefore open to debate, as this is a political discussion board.

Then a political cartoon was posted by someone, with the intent that people should express their opinions about it. Fatcalf expressed his/her opinion about it, just like everyone else did. In fact, I was the one who brought up the issue of free speech, which was a response to a link someone posted about the reaction to the cartoon. Then fatcalf posted his opinion on free speech and on Rachel's action. It is perfectly valid for him to do so, whether you like his opinion or not.

In fact, as far as I can tell, fatcalf was attacked first in this thread. He was told that he could not understand real courage, to which he responded somewhat sardonically - so what? Who hasn't been sarcastic on babble on occasion? It has been the regulars who started the name-calling in this thread, not fatcalf. He was called "fathead", and "troll", among other things, for disagreeing with the majority view on this thread. And so yeah, he got a little sarcastic. Big deal.

So no, this thread is NOT simply a mourning thread. It has been political from the start just as the last thread on Rachel was. It sucks that people have different points of view, but it's something you'll have to live with. If you don't want the thread to get ugly, then don't dish out what you don't want to take.

[ 20 March 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug M.
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posted 20 March 2003 03:26 AM      Profile for Doug M.        Edit/Delete Post
Well said.
From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 March 2003 05:06 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing stands in front of Zionist aspirations.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 20 March 2003 09:26 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I could be indulged long enough to be permitted one ever so respectful correction to fatcalf's logic above -- for fatcalf, as we know and, I hasten to assure all (the esteemed moderators in particular) I deeply believe, is an honourable man: the examples, colourful as they were, that he summoned in this post

quote:
Wingnut, I suppose you're one of those guys who marvels over Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire, or people jumping off buildings for the cause, whatever it is. I don't call it courage -- I call it futility, misguided futility.

and in his immediately preceding were all examples of people who knew they were certain to die from those actions. From the eyewitness accounts of what happened to Rachel, she did not believe she would die; she was clearly astonished that the bulldozer kept coming, and was described as trying to escape at the last minute.

Privilege though it is to have these discussions with fatcalf -- who, I emphasize again, is an honourable man, he and his allies, all, all honourable men indeed -- I felt compelled to make this one teensy intervention and hope that he will take it in the spirit in which it was intended.

sk "read for comprehension, and never rule out irony" dadl


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 20 March 2003 10:54 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ms Corrie - obviously a passionate opponent of oppression - didn't learn her lesson about choosing battles. To throw away your life in the protection of property, regardless of what it symbolizes, is foolhardy. But I do mourn her death and am deeply disgusted by those responsible or ending her young life and desecrating her memorial service.

The editorial cartoon is callous, beyond insensitive, and fundamentally racist. It shows a complete disregard for fundamental decency and reveals the contemptible position - that all Palestinian people are terrorists - of its creator.

This is not a freedom of speech issue, and I'm so bloody sick and tired of that tired old Amendment being trotted out every time there's some controversy. No one is being censored. Wildly divergent opinions are being freely expressed. Even if the spineless editor of this rag had chosen not to publish this tasteless editorial cartoon crap, it still wouldn't have been a freedom of speech issue, because newspapers have editors or very clear reasons, and not publishing shit in no way violates an individual's right to freedom of expression.

If that were the case, alot of frustrated, unpublished writers of dubious talent would be launching lawsuits against publishers.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 March 2003 11:14 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nothing stands in front of Zionist aspirations.
Without a doubt this was a terrible tragedy. However, this kind of intolerant rhetoric does more harm than good.

I have said it many times, most Jews are Zionists from the left like Rabbi Michael Lerner to many in the middle and on the right. So when you resort to this kind of name-calling you are actually condemmning even the many Jews on the left, who while they may be vociferously against Sharon and his tactics, are nonetheless proud and longtime Zionists.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 11:48 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wingnut, I suppose you're one of those guys who marvels over Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire, or people jumping off buildings for the cause, whatever it is. I don't call it courage -- I call it futility, misguided futility.

But, oh great one, why don't you illuminate the rest of us cowards vis a vis the heroic highlights of your existence. Do these events fill a great book somewhere?



I rwepeat my assertion. You know nothing about courage. Every single graet and momentous action that has taken place on this planet, and every single great person who has, through peaceful action, changed or directed the course of change throughout human history has done so through the misguided actions of placing thier own bodies on the line in what was surely futility. From Jesus Christ to Ghandi to Martin Luther King Jr. they are united in their poor guidance and acts of futility against overwhelming and powerful odds.

These are the people whose actions and words fill the dusty history books. And not one of them would have experienced even the slightest success if it were not for ordinary people like Rachel who heard the call and engaged in their own acts of defiance. Incredible courage. To you misguided and foolish. So be it. But like I said ...


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 20 March 2003 11:57 AM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The editorial cartoon is callous, beyond insensitive, and fundamentally racist. It shows a complete disregard for fundamental decency and reveals the contemptible position - that all Palestinian people are terrorists - of its creator.

Rebecca West: I would agree that the cartoon is insensitive and callous. I would totally disagree that it is racist (?!) It does not say that all Palestinian people are terrorists -- YOU drew that inference.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No she didn't the inference is right there: "sitting in front of a bulldozer to protect a gang of terrorists." What gang? What terrorists? Oh, Palestinians. There is no doubt Israel has become a racist state where all Palestinians are terrorists. It is a shame.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3859

posted 20 March 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Once again, read the cartoon and accompanying text. It does not say that the entire Palestinian population is comprised of terrorists.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 20 March 2003 12:06 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingy, with regard to fathead's comments, I guess some folks believe its better to live on your knees than to die on your feet.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 12:08 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It doesn't have to. It is an implication. Not much different than when Sharon constantly refers not to terrorists but to Palestinian terrorists to continually draw the line that Palestinians = terrorists.

It is propaganda and demonization.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3859

posted 20 March 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Wasn't Rachel trying to prevent a building from being bulldozed? If so, she died as a result of protecting property. Mortar and bricks. This is futile, on an individual level. If she had died whilst trying to push a child away from the bulldozer blade, then you have quite a different moral situation (ie. saving the life of a person, which is different from saving a building, and certainly NOT futile).

[ 20 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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Babbler # 370

posted 20 March 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The obese offspring of some poor cow IS NOT
worth losing one's cool over, right????

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is quite the statement.

Didn't a yong black woman risk her safety and even her life for a seat on a bus? Were not so many young blacks beaten and some killed for a burger at a diner?

Is your home just property? You wouldn't defend it?
Interesting.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 20 March 2003 12:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no doubt Israel has become a racist state where all Palestinians are terrorists.
Please explain to me how one political cartoon in one Israeli newspaper translates to all of Israel being a racist state. Again ignorant and hurtful rhetoric that we have unfortunately become all to accustomed to on Babble.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 20 March 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would totally disagree that it is racist (?!) It does not say that all Palestinian people are terrorists -- YOU drew that inference.
Take another look at the cartoon - it says that Rachel Corrie died defending terrorists. Despite what your talent for mental revisionism is telling you, the inference that all Palestinians are terrorists, is most certainly racist.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 20 March 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think something a lot of the people who are calling her death senseless are overlooking is that she probably wasn't making an attempt to martyr herself. Granted, the only thing we really have to go on is the testimonials of the people present who are all biased in one way or another, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that she did not willingly get run over by the bulldozer. She was making an attempt at a peaceful protest, as people all over the world do everyday, and something went wrong. What it was, we may never know, because it takes pretty extraordinary circumstances for someone to get run over by a bulldozer. Perhaps her foot was jammed under something, or the bulldozer lurched forward, as they tend to do, and caught her thinking she still had time to move.

Regardless, to say her death was stupid and senseless is to attack this very sort of protest in which people attempt to use themselves as barriers. Which, if that is what you want to do, then do it. But don't blame her or make fun of her for attempting to use a common type of protest and getting caught in a set of bad circumstances leading to her death.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 01:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please explain to me how one political cartoon in one Israeli newspaper translates to all of Israel being a racist state. Again ignorant and hurtful rhetoric that we have unfortunately become all to accustomed to on Babble.

The cartoon is but one example, mishei.

I think what has led me to that conclusion over the past while has been Sharon's latest statements on the so-called peace plan. I have argued in the past that Israel is an apartheid state. I think Sharon's demands cement that idea in my mind.

I am sorry if you find it hurtful but it is far more than rhetoric. "Israel, he says, will retain control of the Palestinian state's external security, borders, airspace, and underground water resources, and will have a veto over treaties with other countries." src: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915690,00.html

And then there is this story: "A loudspeaker summons a group of five men or women to approach the checkpoint, where they are searched by bored Israeli soldiers. They are forbidden to carry anything, so many try to smuggle items in their bulky robes.

When Fatima Najah, 43, attempted to smuggle a bottle of varnish six weeks ago, female soldiers found it and asked the mother of 10 what it was. When she explained, they told her to drink some of it. She refused and two of the soldiers held her and opened her mouth while a third poured in some of the liquid.

Speaking in a weak voice from her home in the Swedish Village in Al Mawasi - so called because it was built by Swedish soldiers in Gaza in 1965 - she told The Observer she collapsed in agony and lay on the floor for 15 minutes until an ambulance arrived.

She spent the next month in hospital being treated for damage to her vocal chords and stomach."

src: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915238,00.html


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 March 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please explain to me how one political cartoon in one Israeli newspaper...

The cartoon was not published in an Israeli newspaper; it's a newspaper affiliated with the University of Maryland (unless I'm missing something).

Edited to add:

quote:
Haggag, the organizer of the protest, said the student body deserved an explanation and an apology because the cartoon lacked decency and was anti-American. Had it been an Israeli who died, Haggag said, The Diamondback would have had more discretion.

(from the DiamondBack itself, emphasis mine.)

[ 20 March 2003: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 March 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, tragically there will always be terrible happenings when civilians feel their lives and existance threatened. I too have problems with Sharon but this does not make Israel any more a racist/apartheid state than the USA.
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WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel's existence, Mishei, is not threatened.

And what is being proposed bu Israel is nothing less than Apartheid. They will live in a Bantu with no rights, no control of their resources, and completely at the mercy of roving Israeli settlers and armed forces.

How is that different than Apartheid?


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CyberNomad
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posted 20 March 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Mourning the death of Rachel" reads the title of this topic.

How about knocking off the politics.

Rachel's death was a tragic accident. May she rest in peace.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 03:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Everything is politics, including the circumstances of her death, and it would be a greater tragedy if more had to rest in peace.
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Black Dog
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posted 20 March 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Mourning the death of Rachel" reads the title of this topic.
How about knocking off the politics.


Actually if anyone actually bothered to read the link in the opening of this thread, it's clear that the title "Mourning the death of Rachel" refers to the memorial service for her that was disrupted by the IDF. Ergo, "politics" is entirely appropriate.
quote:
Rachel's death was a tragic accident. May she rest in peace.

Rachel's death was no more accidental than the attack on the World Trade Centre. If it was simply an accident, why would the IDF feel compelled to break up a memorial service using tanks, tear gus and gunfire?

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Mishei
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posted 20 March 2003 05:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is just that a "proposal". I really dont believe it has much support either in Israel or elsewhere .

The Barak proposal was significantly different and it initially did have support until Arafat stepped in to spoil that one.

Things will evolve and I believe once it does there will be a Palestinian nation that will be peaceful and a decent neighbor to Israel. If that can be accomplished wait and see how eagerly Israelis will support it. However if violence still remains the order of the day I fear for any potential solutions.


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Mandos
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posted 20 March 2003 05:31 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Barak proposal, as you call it, was fraudulent and deserved stomping all over. It would have perpetuated the Oslo fiasco.

Palestinian violence can be significantly reduced by the application of non-Barak justice. But it will take a lot of time and healing after any just non-Barak solution for violence to stop completely. Allowing violence to halt a peace process seems to me to defeat the point of a peace process. What's the point of a peace process if you're going to demand peace up front?


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Mishei
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posted 20 March 2003 05:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What's the point of a peace process if you're going to demand peace up front?

Oh damn, God forbid the Israelis ask for "peace" upfront or a true cessation of violence. Sheesh!!!

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Mandos
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posted 20 March 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because that means surrender. It means that there is no reason for Israel to bargain except in token things that look good for international (read US) public relations. This is close to the heart of the Barak/Oslo disaster. Palestinian rights first, Israeli security may come later. The rights of the oppressed take precedence and we can only hope they lead to security.

Otherwise security becomes an excuse to perpetuate oppression--as it is in Palestine and was institutionalized during the Oslo period.


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WingNut
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posted 20 March 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or, why doesn't Israel offer peace up front? I hear from them peace, peace, peace as they walk about bulldozing homes and firing missiles into crowds.
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Justice
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posted 20 March 2003 08:10 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't understand the threat the Barak deal propose? There could have been a cessation of violence and negotations could have continued.

Not only do you expect Israel not to have demands but when it gets hit not to responde???

I don't like sharon but talk about rasicim how manyuJews are left in Arab countries??? And how brualy are the few that are left there treated?

By the way speak of apartheied I didn't see any black in south africa blowing themselves up along with innocent people to achive their goal.

And the Jews still treat the palistinians much better and give them tons of aid.

[ 20 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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DrConway
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posted 20 March 2003 08:53 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wasn't Rachel trying to prevent a building from being bulldozed? If so, she died as a result of protecting property. Mortar and bricks.

Don't you right-wingers constantly whine and piss and moan about property rights the instant someone wants to raise taxes or expropriate big corporations?

I should think you'd be hooting and hooray-ing the willingness of someone to die over property.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 20 March 2003 09:00 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Ergo, Rachel was right-wing?
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Natalie Anne Lanoville
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posted 20 March 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for Natalie Anne Lanoville     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Warning: Thread drift....

I am very much in favour of Palestinian emancipation and self-rule, whatever that looks like (I personally don't know the answer), but IMO the second an independent Palestinian state is formed it will be annexed by Jordan.

Natalie, taking shelter under her fire-retardant hemp golf umbrella


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fatcalf
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posted 20 March 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Quite true, especially if that Palestinian state has any significant water rights.
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DrConway
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posted 21 March 2003 01:39 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ergo, Rachel was right-wing?

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

Whoa, what the hell was THAT that just went over your head?!?!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 08:23 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian rights first, Israeli security may come later.
So the murder of Israeli men women and children is less important than securing political rights? Seems a sad inversion of morality to me.

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Michelle
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posted 21 March 2003 08:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Considering that Palestinians are being murdered at a rate of two or three people per Israeli murdered, that doesn't seem like a very valid argument.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 21 March 2003 08:29 AM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rights versus security is, i think, a false opposition. Real security will only come -- can only come -- when human rights, Palestinian or otherwise, are actually respected.
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satana
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posted 21 March 2003 09:02 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did the Israeli government apologize to Rachel's family and friends? Has the bulldozer operator been prosecuted?

I reply to Mishei on another thread.


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WingNut
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posted 21 March 2003 10:34 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By the way speak of apartheied I didn't see any black in south africa blowing themselves up along with innocent people to achive their goal.



That is true, But as brutally as they were treated, they were never dehumanized and brutalized and left as hopeless and desperate as are Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 21 March 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
are you insane wingnut you are a nut they were treated a thousand times worse and time dehumanied a thousand times more.

True the reporters like to show clips of palistinians dancing in the street every time one of the infdels get killed but then I geuss they shouldn't do that. But I don't see lies or stories bneing spread of how they are canibals or something like that.

You should really go and take a look back at the books.

Left as hopless??? now this is crazy thought but maybe the reason their attacking israel in not because their hoppless but because they have hope the hop of destroying Israel.

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 10:39 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Considering that Palestinians are being murdered at a rate of two or three people per Israeli murdered, that doesn't seem like a very valid argument.
This would only have validity if it were true.

I dont at all dispute that Palestinians are being killed and at times Israeli soldiers and tactics are to be blamed. However to create this moral equivalancy suggesting that all the deaths in total of Palestinians,are "murder" is ludicrous and falsely accusatory.


However it is true that all Israelis (including Christians Moslems and Jews) killed by terrorist acts in pizza parlors, resteraunts buses etc is cold blooded murder.


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WingNut
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posted 21 March 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
are you insane wingnut you are a nut they were treated a thousand times worse and time dehumanied a thousand times more.

Really, how so?

Where their children suffering the diseases associated with malnutrition? Was their drinking water taken from them to fill swimming pools? Where entire families punished for the alleged acts of one family member? Where they held in virtual house arrest within their own towns for months on end?
Where they fenced into a giant concentration camp?

No, apartheid was evil. What is happening in the West Bank and Gaza is worse.

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where they fenced into a giant concentration camp?

This is a gross misuse of terms. When people think of Concentration camps they recall the manner in which Jews were treted during the Holocaust. It is an unmistakeable image with the use of this word.

WingNut, I am sure you did not mean to create such a comparision.


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Justice
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posted 21 March 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been there I know how bad it is. It is pretty bad I must admit but it's nothing compared to what went on in south africa and other places across the world. And second of all the blame for this situations is not Israels alone!!!Billion of dollars were given to fix the problem I wonder whats been done with it was it given to build up a stronger force for arafat isn't some of it in swiss bank accounts. Have you ever seen arafats Palace in Gaza???

Who really is forcing them to live this way

I don't think anybody deserves to live like that but I'm not going to Justify it in anyway. I do think schools and hospitals and infrasture should be built I mean it from the bottom of my heart but there is only so much that can be done.When they would rather be fighting instead of trying to build something. I don't I repeat I don't blame all palistinans for it but this is the sad truth and if this isn't fixed then we'll never get anywhere.


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WingNut
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posted 21 March 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think anybody deserves to live like that but I'm not going to Justify it in anyway. I do think schools and hospitals and infrasture should be built I mean it from the bottom of my heart but there is only so much that can be done.When they would rather be fighting instead of trying to build something. I don't I repeat I don't blame all palistinans for it but this is the sad truth and if this isn't fixed then we'll never get anywhere.

The IDF systematicaly destroyed the infrastruture. The Israeli government makes no effort to distinguish between Palestinians and extremists, and, in fact, goes out if its way to associate all Palestinians with terrorism. And then engages in collective punishment.

I appreciate what you are saying. But I hear all time how Israelis do not support Sharon and how they do want change. And yet they turn around and defend Sharon and the actions of the IDF.

One simple example is provided of a woman forced to drink varnish at a checkstop (and read the entire article as the town in which she lives, while occupied, has never been a centre of violence) but she is just one example. There is the example of Israeli soldiers passing a human rights and peace activist while she knitted on her porch and returning to shoot her dead. And the process of denial, and so-called investigation drags on interminably. If it were an Israeli woman killed in such a way you know missiles would be slamming into refugee camps, homes would be bulldozed, amn and boys would be rounded up for beatings.

Who would rather be fighting? Palestinians? Israelis? Sharon and Hamas would rather be fighting. And so they are. But then Israelis are prepared to allow all Palestinians to suffer terribly for the madness of Sharon and allies in violence Hamas.

And I agree it will never get anywhere so long as denial, on both sides, is the order of the day.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 21 March 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Funny just spoke to my sister in Israel (Giving myself away here) I'm sure if there were a case of a soldier forcing a woman to drink varnish it would be in every news paper in Israel. It's not like a dictatorship everyone knows there is free press there.

As well I'd like to mention she lives in a town Called Lod there are many Arabs there she has many arab friends. She is also a nurse and treats many arabs that are victims of gang war there that has been going on bettween to Arab families for many years.

Thats Israel for you if what you were saying were ture would have been all the media in Israel and there would be people protesting in the street just like the 300 odd soldiers that refuse to serve in the teritories. But in the case since no one has herd and there is no proof they would all conclued that it's anti-semetic propoganda just like before the holocust.

And excuse me how does Israel go out of it's way to associate all palistinians with terorrisim?

Israel has nothing to hide. It's not denial yes sometimes the humanitrian workers are delayed a little form getting where they need to go but they are always there to bare witness.

I geuss the army is going to need to carry around aid workers then to show them each house before they bulldoze it down how there is a weapons cash or a whole for smuggling wepons.

I'm sure mistakes happen but I doubt if it's as often as you think.


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Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 12:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also have had a hard time trying to find some verification for the Knitting story and the varnish story. If these are as Wing describes them they would be an awful war crime and I know Israeli newspapers would jump all over it. What gives?
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Justice
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posted 21 March 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll highlight and emphasize if it were true it would be a horrible war crime, it would be in every Israeli newspaper and many people in Israel would be protesting in the street and want the people responisble currified I would be one of the protestors if I were there now.

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Michelle
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posted 21 March 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To my mind, Mishei, summary executions ARE murder.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 March 2003 03:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Point of information: I believe that "concentration camps," both the fact and the term, were invented by the British in South Africa at the time of the Boer War.

Many peoples, sadly, have been capable of creating various versions of the gulags -- and there's a term that gets used metaphorically all the time.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To my mind, Mishei, summary executions ARE murder.
And who is exactly committing "summary executions"?

quote:
Point of information: I believe that "concentration camps," both the fact and the term, were invented by the British in South Africa at the time of the Boer War.
Yes I am fully ware of the history of the term "concentration camp".

That is why I specifically said that the term is best known as the camps in which Jews were hurded during the war. I believe that is accurate.

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Michelle
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posted 21 March 2003 03:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are claiming that the people getting killed by the IDF are often terrorists. Have those terrorists been tried and convicted or are they being killed without a trial?

Isn't that the definition of a summary execution?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 21 March 2003 03:53 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Point of information: I believe that "concentration camps," both the fact and the term, were invented by the British in South Africa at the time of the Boer War.

[nitpick]I read recently that concentration camps were used in Cuba by the Spanish a few years prior to the Boer War. I believe I found that in John Keegan's recent biography of Winston Churchill.
[/nitpick]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Isn't that the definition of a summary execution?


NO, that's the definition of a war on terrorists

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WingNut
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posted 21 March 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, that is the definition of terrorism.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut only in your mind. I pray to God you never have to face the ugly spectre of terrorism. I have and it is horrible..just horrible. If you choose not to fight it so be it. I choose to oppose homicide/suicide bombings and support efforts to wage a war on those who would wantonly murder.
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skdadl
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posted 21 March 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei: You are telling us that you support the "targeted killings" in the OT? (Along with all the inevitable "collateral damage"?)

I have never heard you say that in so many words before. (I'm going to push my jaw back into position now.)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 21 March 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose the terms "criminally culpable" or "criminally stupid" wouldn't apply to those the IDF targets huh skdadl? Or is that kind of condemnation only reserved for Canadian nurses trying to make a living in the KSA?
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Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, an old friend of mine was the victim of a recent terrorist attack in Haifa. He was only 43 and a father of 3 small children. Im sorry but to me this is a war against evil. Strange how personal it becomes when reality interferes with your rational mind.

I continue to hope for peace but understand that Israel must keep its people safe.

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 March 2003 05:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sheep, where was I suggesting that any of the spoiled brats be executed?

I was suggesting that some North Americans grow up and recognize the role they have played in provoking the ordinary people of places like the KSA.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 March 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Strange how personal it becomes when you reality interferes with your rational mind.

Mishei, I mourn for your friend and his family and friends.

But that line above is even more presumptuous than usual. You know next to nothing about hundreds of people who read and post to this site. I'm sorry your grief directs you so, but I wouldn't assume that the same is true of everyone.


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Mishei
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posted 21 March 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But that line above is even more presumptuous than usual. You know next to nothing about hundreds of people who read and post to this site. I'm sorry your grief directs you so, but I wouldn't assume that the same is true of everyone.


The line you refer to is meant to be a personal observation about MYSELF no one else. It is you who I believe may have been presumptuous.

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WingNut
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posted 21 March 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, for tthe Palestinian victims of daily settler and IDF violence and brutality, they understand terrorism only too well. I pray to God maybe one day you will realize Israelis do not have a monopoly on suffering and pain. And the rational of terrorism you would use to justify terrorism is just as a good a rationale for Palestinians as it is for Israelis.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 21 March 2003 05:50 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I suppose the terms "criminally culpable" or "criminally stupid" wouldn't apply to those the IDF targets huh skdadl?

Yes, let the IDF's righteous wrath rain down on them who would live in the same apartment building as a known terrorist (and his children) or choose to be caught in the same traffic jam as a terrorist commander.

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satana
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posted 21 March 2003 06:13 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Four eyewitnesses describe the murder of Rachel Corrie

Rachel Corrie Memorial


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 21 March 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ech...not worth it.

[ 21 March 2003: Message edited by: sheep ]


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Michelle
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posted 21 March 2003 08:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, my condolences over your friend. I was wondering why you have been away for a while, and I guess that's why.

I'm really sorry to hear that.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 21 March 2003 08:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I am terribly sorry about your friend.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 21 March 2003 10:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm sure if there were a case of a soldier forcing a woman to drink varnish it would be in every news paper in Israel. It's not like a dictatorship everyone knows there is free press there.

Nuh-uh.

Ariel Sharon has substantial control over the media now in Israel. Any time he wants an interview or a news conference or whatever, people jump up and do his bidding.

Israel's press, by North American standards, is in some ways more free and in some ways less free, for this reason.

More diverse viewpoints are certainly presented, as Gush Shalom regularly takes out ads in Ha'aretz, and so on. However, Sharon's extensive intrusion into the media means that there is increasing government intervention in what the media pays attention to, and so it is less free in this respect.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 March 2003 10:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is almost a hundred posts and we're no longer talking about Rachel anyhow, so I'm going to close this.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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