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Author Topic: Activist killed by IDF bulldozer
xrcrguy
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posted 16 March 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz
quote:
"Rachel was alone in front of the house as we were trying to get them to stop," he said. "She waved for bulldozer to stop and waved. She fell down and the bulldozer kept going. We yelled 'stop, stop,' and the bulldozer didn't stop at all. It had completely run over her and then it reversed and ran back over her."


This is horrible.

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 March 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That page shows up blank, but Ha'aretz Daily's headline PAGE still shows the headline.

(Edit for braindead noninsertion of word the first time)

[ 16 March 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 March 2003 02:57 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0316-01.htm
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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posted 16 March 2003 03:01 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz comes through now, though, perhaps a little lighter.
From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
rbil
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posted 16 March 2003 04:33 PM      Profile for rbil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's the difference between a despotic state like China and a democratic ally of the US like Israel?

The Chinese tank STOPPED and didn't run over the protester - the Israeli one didn't.

What's the difference between a news channel like the CBC, BBC, Guardian and CNN?

The self-proclaimed best news channel in the world - CNN - hasn't reported on this incident at all (as of this writing).


From: IRC: irc.bcwireless.net JOIN: #linuxtalk | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 March 2003 04:43 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Lord bless thee and keep thee.
The Lord make his face shine upon thee,
And be gracious unto thee.
The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee,
And give thee peace.


For Rachel, and for everyone else who has died in this obscene conflict that could be stopped at any moment by an effective international army used, for once, for humane purposes.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 16 March 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
this obscene conflict that could be stopped at any moment by an effective international army

Blessed are the believers ...

Dream on, ma'am, dream on.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 16 March 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For Rachel, and for everyone else who has died in this obscene conflict that could be stopped at any moment by an effective international army used, for once, for humane purposes.

Could you be more specific about what you see as an 'effective international army'. It would necessarily exclude the U.S., and any of the Arab or Muslim states, and probably could not include Britain, France, Germany or Russia. Would the Swiss Guard from the Vatican suffice?


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 16 March 2003 09:36 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahh yes the good old IDF, the moral standard for the modern military operations, restraint, intelligence and above all discipline.

I see that a shot a few more Palestinians, later the same day, just to ensure that everyone got the message.

Didn't the Salvadoran death squads prepare just such a clear message to 'interfering outsiders' by raping and killing four nuns in 83.

[ 16 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 March 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aha. Another drive-by posting by agent 007/CyberNomad, and another utterly incoherent but clearly bitter spew from radio/mandrake/schizm.

I have just cut the paragraph I started to write about the various methods I have learned for removing dried feces from the short and curlies of the nether regions (although, I gotta tell you, I am exercising superhuman restraint here, after seeing CN and shizm shit upon the most beautiful benediction in the language).

Instead, I think we should try to start all over again to pray with full hearts and minds:

quote:

1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 16 March 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amen to that skdadl. How many prayers, for how many dead, this year? Too many, too much senseless death in the air. And the world could stop it, if only we would. My prayer is "to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness.... How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who announces peace."
From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 March 2003 01:16 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
STATEMENT ON THE MURDER OF RACHEL CORRIE


In Rafah, Gaza Strip today Rachel Corrie, a 23-year old American woman from Olympia, Washington, who was a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement, was killed by the Israeli Army. Rachel was standing in the path of the bulldozer as it advanced towards her. When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it wearing a fluorescent jacket to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing. The bulldozer continued to advance so that she was pulled under the pile of dirt and rubble. After she had disappeared from view the driver kept advancing until the bulldozer was completely on top of her. The driver did not lift the bulldozer blade and so she was crushed beneath it. Then the driver backed up - effectively running over her again.

The Israeli Army consistently bulldozes Palestinian homes, particularly in Rafah, where over 100 homes have been demolished in the last two years. The International Solidarity Movement - both Palestinian and international citizens - calls upon the international community to break the silence around Israel's grotesque human rights abuses. International civilians are in the Occupied Palestinian Territories attempting to protect Palestinian human rights and lives precisely because formal international bodies have refused to take action to do so. Dozens of Palestinian civilians are being systematically murdered weekly, and today, a beautiful, conscientious American defender of human rights was killed trying to protect the home of a Palestinian family.

This murder, along with Israel's continued destruction of Palestinian homes must be strongly condemned by the United States and the United Nations and they must insist that Israel abide by international law and UN Resolutions. The International Solidarity Movement also calls upon the United States government to conduct its own independent investigation into this incident and to take responsibility for the manner in which the Israeli government is using the $2.2 billion in military aid that we grant to Israel per year.This money and US-made weaponry is daily being used by the Israeli military to harm innocent civilians.The bulldozer that killed Rachel Corrie was an American-made Caterpillar D-9 bulldozer.

The murder of Rachel Corrie was clearly NOT an accident.Eyewitnesses report that the bulldozer driver was able to see Rachel, and that they were shouting to the driver to stop.The Israeli government and army continue to blame the victims of violence carried out by the Israeli Army for their own suffering.Israel must be accountable for this criminal act and all criminal acts it is carrying out on a daily basis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.


The International Solidarity Movement greatly mourns the loss of Rachel Corrie and extends its heartfelt condolences to her family and friends. We pledge to continue actively working for the ideals of freedom and justice that Rachel died for.

For photos of the incident, please visit

www.palsolidarity.org.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 17 March 2003 02:06 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fighting terrorism.

quote:
The unfortunate reality is that Israel will not give an inch until the terrorist attacks stop.

-- Schizm

... not even if that inch, is the inch that it take to depress the brake pedal on a bulldozer.

Rachel Corey, just before being murdered.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 17 March 2003 03:02 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More photos and information. Not all of it is nice to look at.

Photo story: Israeli bulldozer driver murders American peace activist


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 12:53 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
I feel sorry for young Rachel, but it is foolish, in the extreme, to dart in front of an extremely heavy piece of moving equipment like a huge bulldozer. What purpose is served by extinguishing your life this way. What a waste --I feel so sorry for her family and friends.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 March 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I feel sorry for young Rachel, but it is foolish, in the extreme, to dart in front of an extremely heavy piece of moving equipment like a huge bulldozer.

Weight, in this case, doesn't equate to momentum. Because it doesn't move on wheels, and doesn't normally move more than about a mile or so an hour, a bulldozer can stop practically in an instant.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 17 March 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blessed are the peacemakers...

A waste? What kind of waste is dedicating your life to the service of peace and justice?

Would we call the sacrifice of our WWII soldiers a waste? I think not.

Rachel will always have a special place reserved in my heart. Along side of the vets, Martin Luther King, and others who have laid down their lives to a cause greater than themselves.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: xrcrguy ]


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 17 March 2003 01:07 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Lord bless thee and keep thee.
The Lord make his face shine upon thee,
And be gracious unto thee.
The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee,
And give thee peace.

Amen. May her family and find friends find peace and strength at a time of terrible tragedy.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
I saw a picture of Rachel in today's newspaper -- she had adopted a Palestine manner of dress, indicating she identified with these oppressed people. So far so good. But I also think she must have identified with the "suicide" gambit (sans dynamite) with predictably tragic results.

How can you work for peace if you kill yourself?


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 17 March 2003 01:12 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rachel Corrie, peacemaker, leads the children.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Whazzup? ]


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 17 March 2003 01:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all the "adopting a Palestinian style of dress" is not accurate. In most photos of Rachel she is in Western dress.

Rachel was blonde. You don't even have to reach the southern shores of the Mediterranean basin to have every male in sight to hit on you if you are a blonde traveller, also happens in Southern Italy and Greece. Wearing a headscarf and modest dress means less harassment, and can be seen as a sign of respect for the prevailing culture. People who come from other cultures don't usually go around exposing body parts that we don't while here.

Second, Rachel was involved in peaceful, non-violent resistance to oppression, not suicide bombing. It is disgusting to insult her memory.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
You obviously have never had children, or have had the horrible experience of losing a child. I wonder whether Rachel's parents are happy about her choice (and yes, it was a choice). I'm not doubting the integrity of her intentions (working for peace); I do question her futile gesture.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 17 March 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why on earth is that obvious from my posting?

No, I haven't actually. I have lost friends and comrades in countries with repressive regimes however.

Remember the Madres de Plaza de Mayo.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 March 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How can you work for peace if you kill yourself?

If we can believe her colleague and fellow American Greg Schnabel, quoted in the Ha'aretz story, she didn't kill herself. She was killed.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 17 March 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do question her futile gesture.
I expect Himmler had a similiar thought as Nazi tanks were crushing resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto.

I think you have darted in front of the bulldozer of history. Imperialism, colonialism, globalization and hatred are impediments to human progress, they are not our destiny.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wish evil things on the driver of that bulldozer and the men who gave him his orders. A plague on them all.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 March 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I saw a picture of Rachel in today's newspaper -- she had adopted a Palestine manner of dress, indicating she identified with these oppressed people. So far so good. But I also think she must have identified with the "suicide" gambit (sans dynamite) with predictably tragic results.
How can you work for peace if you kill yourself?


Have you even looked at the photos on this thread? She was clearly wearing western-style clothing, head uncovered, and armed only with a megaphone at the time of her murder. Even if she were wearing a headscarf or traditional garb, she was clearly unarmed. If the IDF had actually considered her a threat, they would have shot her instead of crushing her...the perceived danger to the bulldozer driver would have demanded such action. The manner of her murder clearly indicates that she was not considered a threat by the IDF.

The photos also make it clear that she was standing in plain view of the driver, yelling at him through the megaphone. Claiming that she darted in front of the machine and killed herself is a despicable lie, fatcalf.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 03:22 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
This game of chicken has happened out here on the West Coast. Protestors against logging have jumped in front of fully loaded logging trucks. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt, and I suppose people who engage in this tactic accept possible death or injury as the prize one pays for civil disobedience.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 March 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Again, fatcalf: a logging truck has momentum. A bulldozer, for all practical purposes, does not. You're attempting to shift all responsibility to the woman who was killed. It won't wash. I won't be convinced this was an accident, particularly if it's true that the driver reversed and drove over her again.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 17 March 2003 03:28 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I feel sorry for young Rachel, but it is foolish, in the extreme, to dart in front of an extremely heavy piece of moving equipment like a huge bulldozer. What purpose is served by extinguishing your life this way. What a waste --I feel so sorry for her family and friends.

You strrike me as the type to say things like 'guns don't kill people, people kill people.' Would you say the same of bulldozers.

PS, the photo show that she was clearly visible to the driver, therefore he is repsonsible. Secondly I'm glad you brought up the point about manner of dress, other than the fact it is irrelvant and untrue, are you suggesting that people who do dress like 'locals,' such as the actual 'locals' might also be selected for arbitrary execution in just such a manner. Doesn't this ring 'Jenin' bells.

Whazzup, You are totaly disgusting.

Are you suggesting that shouting, wearing a Hejab and burning a US flags deserves death|? In the context, and for one who feigns 'oh so much concern' for the human rights of Kurds' (some also known for shouting, wearing Hejab's and buring flags,) it is completely inappropriate to say things that suggest that she deserved to die in this way, based on photograph from a newswire story.

What a hypocrite.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 03:29 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does the fact that she knew the risks make it o.k.? Just because she had the courage to put her life on the line for what she believed in doesn't change the fact that this was murder, plan and simple.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
A well known protestor in California, not long ago, lived in a tree as a form of protest. One windy night she fell out, and died. We are all responsible for our own personal safety.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A well known protestor in California, not long ago, lived in a tree as a form of protest. One windy night she fell out, and died. We are all responsible for our own personal safety.

Apples....oranges.
Your example would only have merit if the tree she was in was cut down underneath her. Otherwise, there's no equivilancy.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
What if I lived next to a highway, and I objected to the speed limit. After petitioning my government, writing letters, etc. etc., I was at the end of my tether, because I thought the speed limit was too fast. So as a form of direct action, I walked out into the middle of the highway, whereupon I was struck down by a car, despite my brightly coloured clothing.

Am I not partially responsible for my own demise?


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 March 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why are you insisting that she is responsible for her own murder? Blaming the victim is a tried-and-true tactic of rapists and wife beaters, ya know.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 17 March 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What if I lived next to a highway... etc.

Well, if all of the cars moved as fast as bulldozers then I would conclude that driver reaction times were even slower than your wit, or that they harboured ill will toward you because of the latter.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look, just because this woman accepted the risks inherent in standing in front of a bulldozer, RUNNING SOMEONE OVER REPEATEDLY WITH A FUCKING BULLDOZER ISN'T RIGHT! This is especially true when said buldozer is being used to perpatrate illegal methods of colective punishment.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 March 2003 03:45 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So as a form of direct action, I walked out into the middle of the highway, whereupon I was struck down by a car, despite my brightly coloured clothing.

You're. Not. Listening.

A bulldozer, in effect, has no momentum. It typically moves so slowly, and against such internal resistance -- because of its tracks -- that you need only close the throttle, or touch the brake pedal, to stop it.

Nor have you addressed the report that the driver reversed his machine and ran over her again. Was this, too, an accident? Or is it a lie?

If you walked onto the highway and were struck by a car, the driver would not likely have time to stop, and therefore would not be responsible. That's not the case here. The driver must have made the decision to run over her.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 03:53 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Have you ever run a big piece of equipment similar to these really large bulldozers? The noise is deafening, and your field of vision immediately in front of you (where the blade is) is not the same as driving a car etc.

Lots of people get hit by fork lifts in warehouses etc. It can happen. And it does. And it isn't always a case of mayhem/malice.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 March 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More political hay-making. Would we be as outraged at her death if it were due to a nail-bomb in a Jerusalem market? Who could we vilify then??
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 March 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I joined this thread late, not to make political hay, but to dispute the claim that Rachel is somehow responsible for her own murder. I am far too angry about this incident to post my personal reaction. The fact that you think I (and others saddened by this death) are simply using it to make "political hay" is insensitive, to say the least Magoo. I've written several times in this forum that the suicide bombings have to stop, both because they target innocent civilians, and because they are just plain stupid (feeding the Likud agenda). Don't tell me when I'm making political hay.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 17 March 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Have you ever run a big piece of equipment similar to these really large bulldozers?

I have. I think you're making excuses.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 17 March 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whazzup, You are totaly disgusting.

Are you suggesting that shouting, wearing a Hejab and burning a US flags deserves death|? In the context, and for one who feigns 'oh so much concern' for the human rights of Kurds' (some also known for shouting, wearing Hejab's and buring flags,) it is completely inappropriate to say things that suggest that she deserved to die in this way, based on photograph from a newswire story.

What a hypocrite.


Moredreads, one need not turn Rachel Corrie into a secular saint (blessed peacemaker) to deplore her death, and demand justice for her. This is really a very simple point -- one I'm sure even your limited intellect can grasp.

Your feverish imagination has led you to some pretty despicable conclusions in the past, but accusing me of suggesting Corrie "deserved to die" is a new low.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 17 March 2003 04:41 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We are all responsible for our own personal safety.

You are a piece of work fatcalf! Serves those firefighters right who got killed on 9/11, right?

Women who defend their children from abusive husbands are asking for what they get, eh?

You must get all goose-pimply with righteous vindication thinking about those Kent State protesters who got their just desserts, hmm?


Do you get a warm and fuzzy feeling, when you think of the students massacred... sorry, given what they deserved by the Chinese military in Tiananmen Square.

Here's an idea. Maybe the bulldozer driver could have got a couple of brawny IDF men to pick up Rachel Corrie and restrain her until the bulldozing was over.

Of course then we would all have been spared the satisfaction of retributive justice, eh?

Edited to ask:

quote:
Would we be as outraged at her death if it were due to a nail-bomb in a Jerusalem market?

Do you have a point in vposting this, or are you just trying to score rhetorical points off the death of a defenceless, idealistic 23-year-old-woman?

I'd love to hear what point this could possibly be.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 March 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't tell me when I'm making political hay.

Fair enough. I wasn't pointing specifically at you of course; this thread is just starting to get that smell of "See? Proof handed down by God that Israel is evil and corrupt!" to it.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Serves those firefighters right who got killed on 9/11, right?

A new low.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 17 March 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
fatcalf, you have desecrated the smiley. Stop that.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fair enough. I wasn't pointing specifically at you of course; this thread is just starting to get that smell of "See? Proof handed down by God that Israel is evil and corrupt!" to it.

I think it's more along the lines of "What kind of sick motherfucker repeatedly runs over an unarmed person with a bulldozer?"
Or maybe that was just me.
Now that you mention it thoguh, this incident does highlight the moral equivilancy of the IDF's actions to those of its so-called terrorist foes.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 17 March 2003 05:07 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 March 2003 05:40 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you have a point in vposting this, or are you just trying to score rhetorical points off the death of a defenceless, idealistic 23-year-old-woman?

I believe that her death is being used by many people to score points against Israel. Many of the same people who are "outraged" at her death will pay momentary lip service to the evils of suicide bombing while on their way to blame Israel for that too.

My point? I guess I'm just tired of all of the sensationalistic photos, the dead bodies, the "propaganda porn" as it's been called, and the pointing to the latest victim for "proof" that "the other guy" is morally bankrupt, evil, eats babies, etc.

And for the record: she wasn't "defenseless". Her defense was to step aside for her own safety (but that's just a technicality to those who want to believe that the bulldozer operator was the only person who could have affected the outcome of this tragedy).


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 05:46 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My point? I guess I'm just tired of all of the sensationalistic photos, the dead bodies, the "propaganda porn" as it's been called, and the pointing to the latest victim for "proof" that "the other guy" is morally bankrupt, evil, eats babies, etc.

I'm pretty fucking sick of it too. Wouldn't it be great if people would stop blowing themselves and others to bits, or stop running people down with tanks and bulldozers?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 March 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 17 March 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The driver must have made the decision to run over her.

'lance: Unless you were there, you should add IMHO.


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 March 2003 06:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A lesson in basic physics for fatcalf.

Momentum is defined as mass times velocity. As 'lance said, it doesn't matter how heavy the damned thing is if it's crawling along at a speed so slow as to make its momentum relatively small compared to other vehicles.

In a more general vein, I note that the act which makes the driver culpable is that he did not stop the bulldozer immediately upon seeing Rachel. Furthermore, he backed up after running over her.

Now, you could argue that MAYBE he realized too late he ran her over and backed up as an instinctive reaction, but given the wording of the article it sounds like he went almost completely over her and then reversed back over, instead of immediately throwing it into neutral, braking, and then reversing and seeking medical assistance.`


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 17 March 2003 06:12 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
..this incident does highlight the moral equivilancy of the IDF's actions to those of its so-called terrorist foes.

Since when is there a category "suicide bombing accident" that is equivalent to "construction equipment accident"??


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 17 March 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now, you could argue that MAYBE he realized too late he ran her over and backed up as an instinctive reaction, but given the wording of the article it sounds like he went almost completely over her and then reversed back over, instead of immediately throwing it into neutral, braking, and then reversing and seeking medical assistance.`

Or perhaps he thought she was still in front of that huge 'dozer blade, and backed off so that the situation could be resolved. Any of us can read the news reports and put our particular spin on it. Shall we do something almost unheard of here, and actually wait for some facts?


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
A lesson in reality for Doctor Conway:

Have you ever worked on a construction site involving heavy machinery? I have. It is not a tidy mathematical equation and, yes, while Newtonian physics, quantum physics... you name it...have their place, the situation in which Rachel unwitttingly found herself was anything BUT calm, neat and rational. There would be an element of chaos present.

People DO get run over by heavy equipment in "regular" situations (talk to Workmen's Compensation for background). That's why on all work sites in the world, you are advised to stay well away from heavy equipment. It can be dangerous (here is one of many links re. safety rules/accidents around heavy equipment).

http://equipmentaccidents.com/basic.htm

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 17 March 2003 06:29 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that her death is being used by many people to score points against Israel. Many of the same people who are "outraged" at her death will pay momentary lip service to the evils of suicide bombing while on their way to blame Israel for that too.

No argument here.

What really pissed me off about the excerpt of yours I cited was what I perceived (mistakenly, I guess) to be an attempt to equate non-violent protest with suicide bombings.

Does Rachel Corrie bear some resposibility for her own death? Of course. Heroic actions are heroic precisely because they are risky.

What the obtuse fatcalf missed in my previous post was the fact, that in each case I described, the victims were all peforming acts of more or less heroism which led to their deaths.

In each case, the dead bear more or less responsibility for their own deaths.

Does this mean that they were all, finally, the cause (read: responsible) for their own deaths?

I leave the answer up to you. I know where I stand on this.

Cowardice is cowardice because it values personal safety above all else.

Recklessness is recklessness because it fails to recognize that a dead person cannot be of practical assisstance to the living.

Ironically, the sacred cow that so offended fatcalf represents the only example of recklessness in the tragedies I listed. The firefighters who rushed into the WTF to rescue people did so in contravention of Basic Rules of Emergency Response:

quote:
APPROACH CAUTIOUSLY FROM UPWIND. Resist the urge to rush in; others cannot be helped until the situation has been fully assessed

quote:
RESPOND. Respond in an appropriate manner. Establish a command post and lines of communication. Rescue casualties where possible and evacuate if necessary. Maintain control of the site. Continually reassess the situation and modify the response accordingly. The first duty is to consider the safety of people in the immediate area, including your own.

These quotes come from here. I was at an emergency response conference at which the two keynote speakers were responsible for co-ordinating responses to the WTC terrorist attacks. Both of them emphasized the unnecessary tragedy that occurred because people forgot their training and allowed heroism to trump practicality. This resulted in the deaths of hundreds of firefighters.

The evil was gone here, it had incinerated itself with 3000 innocent people. The enemy was not human evil after the crashes were over, but insensate, implacable fire, gravity and hazardous material. There is no moral victory to be won in confronting Nature.

At Kent State, in Tiananmen Square and countless strikes, people are putting themselves in confrontation with greed, violence and oppression: in short, human evil.

You cannot do this without accepting the risks, true. But the other side show their true nature when they shoot, beat, hose or drive over you. This is a human choice. This is what Ghandi was about. This is what the Civil Rights movement was attempting.

If you don't understand why driving a bulldozer over someone by design or indifference puts one on the side of evil, then you're part of the fucking problem, people. It doesn't get simpler than that.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 06:50 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since when is there a category "suicide bombing accident" that is equivalent to "construction equipment accident"??

So now this is a construction accident?!
Wow, I guess there's really no corner you won't attempt to wiggle into to justify your own chronic moral relevatism.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Letting yourself get squashed by a bulldozer, to bring about world peace, is about as intelligent as teaching the world to sing (in perfect harmony)whilst holding a bottle of coca cola, all to bring peace.

http://www.purplelion.com/christmas/carol78.shtml

In other words, there are probably better ways to achieve this worthwhile goal.

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Letting yourself get squashed by a bulldozer, to bring about world peace, is about as intelligent as teaching the world to sing (in perfect harmony)whilst holding a bottle of coca cola, all to bring about peace. In other words, there are probably better ways to achieve this worthwhile goal.

I find it interesting that you keep belittling the victim here. (Actually I meant "nauseating")
I may not agree with her methods, but that certainly doesn't mean she deserved to be murdered.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 17 March 2003 07:11 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Boy, I need some cheap red wine after that one, fatcalf.

*plonk*


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 07:12 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
I'm certainly not belittling the victim, but as victims go she was certainly privileged. She had the resources to travel half-way around the world to protest, but probably not the savvy of the residents in the region. I am surprised that people (the resident Palestinians) didn't have the sense to rush out and whisk her out of harm's way.

Syph: try Royal Red (an old Okanagan Special T.M.)

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: fatcalf ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 March 2003 07:13 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pass me a glass of that plonk, Sis. This thread has left a bad taste in my mouth.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 17 March 2003 07:15 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Happy to share a glass of red with you, comrades.
From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 17 March 2003 07:21 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
no thanks
*plonk*

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 17 March 2003 09:56 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
More political hay-making. Would we be as outraged at her death if it were due to a nail-bomb in a Jerusalem market? Who could we vilify then??

Come on Magoo, point to one thread where people have openly come out and said such and such a person should have been more careful and that they personally had sole resonsibility for their own deaths as a result of a suicide attack.

Even I, who support militant Palestinian resistance am not as foolish as to suggest that the individuals killed are soley to blame becasue they live in Israel.

Whazzup, why did you post your snide sarcasm if not to vilify the dead? Was their nothing else that might have been appropriate? Besides who said she was a saint, as you say? But then again how does your photograph prove that she was not -- all it shows is a young woman in front of children with her mouth open (shouting? singing?), wearing a Hejab burning the flag of the country of her birth.

Which of these things, the Hejab, the burning flag, her youth, the mouth open or the children cast doubt upon the purity of her intentions?

Please clarify, so that I can better understand your commentary: "Rachel Corrie, peacemaker, leads the children."


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 17 March 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
schizm

You are funny:

"construction equipment accident"??

What did it construct?


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 17 March 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Come on Magoo, point to one thread where people have openly come out and said such and such
a person should have been more careful and that they personally had sole resonsibility for their
own deaths as a result of a suicide attack.
Even I, who support militant Palestinian resistance am not as foolish as to suggest that the
individuals killed are soley to blame becasue they live in Israel.
Moredreads

Here's an interesting response to the above quote:

MOREDREADS


quote:
If you're stupid enough to live in Israel in the face of suicide attacks, coupled with a
warnings to return to your original home, what do you expect?
Moredreads

[ 17 March 2003: Message edited by: schizm ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 17 March 2003 11:34 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seeing the attitudes of several posters on this thread, I can't help but think back to December 1980, to another incident in which American citizens were murdered by agents of a US client state -- namely, four American nuns savagely raped and killed by the Salvadoran military. The reaction of officials like Alexander Haig and Jeanne Kirkpatrick at the time was to spread cowardly lies about "pistol-packing nuns" who brought upon their own deaths by "trying to run a roadblock."

The lesson for Americans is, if you're going to be killed by a foreign government, make sure you're killed by an enemy. Otherwise, you can expect to have your memory smeared by grovelling commissars who claim that you somehow "asked for it."

Sick. Very, very sick.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 18 March 2003 12:01 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rachel's parents:

quote:
"We've tried to bring up our children to have a sense of community, a sense of community that everybody in the world belonged to.

"Rachel believed that - with her life, now."

"Rachel was proud, and we are proud of Rachel that she was able to live with her convictions.

"Rachel was filled with a love and sense of duty to our fellow man, wherever they lived, and she gave her life trying to protect those that could not protect themselves."


couldn't keep myself out of this one, though i'm drinking a glass of pre-emptive plonk juice for sure. sickening is right.


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 12:52 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't take this anymore.

Yes people are using this sad incdent to dehumanize israel and the IDF and it makes me sick.

Yes the sitaution is bad yes the IDF isn't perfect but it holds itself accountable more then anyother self righteous army I know. There is an ivestegation being done and wether or not it was an accident doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure the driver will go to Jail anyways because he is fully or partly responsible just as someone is always held accountable in car accident. No other army would even bother doing an investegation and holding somebody accountable for this.

And please stop comparing this to Nuns being raped and Murdered it doesn't even come close to that.

You want to talk about horrible crimes that can compare to Nuns being Rapped how about how the palistinians lynch of 2 Jewish reservist who lost there way home. It would be one thing to simple kill them but to butcher in that manor and tear the bodies apart is clearly inhumane. I could send pics but I don't want to make people too sick.

I don't support Propaganda on either side but I suggest people take a look at themselves before they through around crazy comparisons and accusations that aren't crediable. I don't assume to know what happend. And I'm not saying its horrible but there are things much worse and it doesn't compare to rape and butchering.

I know your going to put up more pictures of the evil israel has done. I know you can show many grusome pictures of what israel has done but believe me an equally grusome and even worse stuff can be shown.


So please stop the dehumanzation on both sides it doesn't help. EVERBODY IS A VICTIM


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 18 March 2003 12:56 AM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Until the bulldozer operator is found guilty in a court of law, democracy is ill-served by hasty pronouncements speculating about his culpability.

In Israel, as in Canada, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Period.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 12:58 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, and we can expect thorough investigation, given that military authorities pronounced it an accident within hours, without any investigation.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 18 March 2003 01:02 AM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
No, it wasn't exactly an accident, that's true. Play chicken with heavy equipment (that weighs tons), amidst swirling clouds of dust that obscure vision, with the high-pitched whine of diesel engines going flat out and, yes ..... something will happen. And it's not exactly accident, because you could predict it would happen.

Rachel seemed like a lovely, committed, and somewhat naive young woman. And she didn't deserve to die, and someone on her side should have been looking out for her.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 01:03 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see you got the point Schizm! Excellent! The irony is fully intended, I can assure you.

Of course you left out the part where my post was a lampoon (thanks Moses, nice way to put it) of yet another attempt by you to blame the Palestinian casualty of yet another fatal Israeli 'operation:'

quote:
If you're stupid enough to fight back in the face of overwhelming firepower, coupled with a warning to give up for the sake of the children, what do you expect?

Schizm

Self serving straw man argumentation, preverication and blaming the victim may not be high art but you have a certain amount of skilled craftsmanship in this area.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 18 March 2003 01:28 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Re: Salvadoran nuns rapes & murdered

Justice: My point is not to "compare" these two horrible incidents themselves, but merely to note the seemingly uncontrollable instinct some people seem to have to lay responsibility on the victim (at least when the act in question is committed by a friendly state).

I am certain that if this exact same incident had taken place in an enemy state, there would be mass Rachel Corey memorials all over the United States. Instead, since her death is not politically useful, it'll become a mere footnote, quickly forgotten.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug M.
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posted 18 March 2003 01:35 AM      Profile for Doug M.        Edit/Delete Post
This is very sad. However, the pictures in this link, (already linked earlier in the thread) in my opinion, actually support the case that this was an accident.

In particular, look at the picture about halfway down the page, that shows a side view of the activist standing in front of the bulldozer. It's obvious that she is dwarfed by the bulldozer blade.

Additionally, anyone who has operated large machinery will attest to the poor visibility directly in front of the machine. I have operated several types of tractors, trucks and the like, none of which was even CLOSE to the size of this bulldozer, and can attest that people/things in close proximity to the machine often disappeared from view.

Given that by all accounts this woman was playing chicken with the bulldozer, and before going under was very close to the front of the machine, I have no doubt that the bulldozer operator didn't know she was trapped.

Very sad, but that doesn't change the fact that, given my line of reasoning, this woman's own naivete with respect to the machine was the primary cause of this accident.


From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 01:45 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Additionally, anyone who has operated large machinery will attest to the poor visibility directly in front of the machine. I have operated several types of tractors, trucks and the like, none of which was even CLOSE to the size of this bulldozer, and can attest that people/things in close proximity to the machine often disappeared from view.

Then, if you are licenced to drive heavy equipment, you know that it is SOP (and in some cases law) that the operator, when not sure that it is safe to proceed, exist the vehicle and walk around it to ensure that there are no bystanders.

Also, it is safe to assume that the bulldozer approached from the distance, and that given her bright jacket at some point would have seen her as he approached. You will also notice that witnesses say that she was outside of the house, waiting presumably, and didn't suddenly appear in front of the machine. Also, you will notice that ISM has done exactly this form of protest before, so the operator would have known that it was likely that unarmed protestors might place themselves in front of the machine, and so should have checked anyway, as per the procedure above.

He was pissed off and he ran her down 99.9%.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 01:53 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads what do you want them to pronunce that that it was the intentions of the army to let a mad man lose on bulldozer??? or say he's guilty before the trial even begings???

Wait a minute this is the way a "just society" works. Some one is accused of being a collabrator we just shoot him in the end no need to investagate or waste tax money in a trial. President Arafat could use the money for new Mercedes

Anyways I geuss everybody here is an expert but me. I don't care. The real problem is the use of this incedent to dehumanize Israel and the IDF I already showed how we can so easily dehumanize eachother and gets us no where.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug M.
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posted 18 March 2003 02:01 AM      Profile for Doug M.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
you know that it is SOP etc...

Suggesting that SOP is the same in Canada and the territories is absurd and you know it. SOP there is that it's bystander beware. The suggestion that he climb down and walk around, as if the activist that he discovers two feet in front of his machine was just waiting for him to ask her to move is ludicrous.

quote:
...at some point would have seen her as he approached...Also, you will notice that ISM has done exactly this form of protest before, so the operator would have known that it was likely that unarmed protestors might place themselves in front of the machine, and so should have checked anyway.

I agree with these assumptions, both now and in my original post. This doesn't contradict my points. I acknowledge that the driver probably knew she was in the vicinity of the front of the machine. However, given that, as others have pointed out, the dozer would be moving very slowly, and given that he couldn't see the area where she had placed herself, it was reasonable that he would think she would take the ample opportunity to have moved out of the way.

Once again, the fact that she did not is a function of her naivete about the machine, not the driver's alleged murderous intentions.

Additionally, I would like to comment on the picture of her burning the mock flag from the previous page. While I agree with the many others who have stated there is nothing wrong with this action, it is enlightening nonetheless, to the extent that it suggests she was a much more radical activist than the "candlelight vigil" school of activist, which lends credence to the argument that she would be behaving recklessly around the bulldozer.


From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 02:02 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whose dehumanizing the IDF? I'm just not idealizing them. Soldiers commit crimes. It happens all the time.

I said, "He was pissed off and he ran her down 99.9%."

All too human really.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 02:18 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Suggesting that SOP is the same in Canada and the territories is absurd and you know it.

This is very problematic. The last week has shown that the IDf can be very lax in terms of its application of its procedures, but its rules, whether applied or not, are based on rules very simllar to those of the US, British and Canadian armies. To assume that a 'western style' democracy like Israel does not have a highly regimented system of rules and safety procedures, in each and every department of the army, for the safety of the soldiers if nothing else is hard to believe.

There is very little difference in operation between a tank an APC and bulldozer, and one knows that infantry casualties caused by accident are a serious concern for all armies. The IDF uses bulldozers, as all armies do, in a variety of combat and non-combat roles. It actually stands to reason that a modern army like that of Israel would have far more rigourous standards of safety procedures and training for all of its heavy equipment operators, than those applied to civilians in the UK or Canada.

quote:
The suggestion that he climb down and walk around, as if the activist that he discovers two feet in front of his machine was just waiting for him to ask her to move is ludicrous.

It is usual for cases of civil disobediance for the army or police to remove such persons blocking traffic etc. There were soldiers on hand whom would remove her. That is one of their jobs.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 02:24 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Moredreads the dehuminzation comment wasn't meant to be personal.

But it's true about that comment "see proof Israel is evil coment" people really are trying to twist things that way

Especially beluga2's comparison to Nuns being raped. Before he/she opens his/her mouth again I think the person has to take a better look at bothsides like I said especially the incedent of 2 reservists being torn apart by an angry mob.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 02:30 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also made this association.

Beluga2's comment was softer than mine. At first it was asserted by the Salvadoran military that they were killed by FMLN guerillas and then later that the nuns ran a roadblock and that there was a running gunfight with the van the nuns were in. A great deal of the western press reported both of these accounts about the nuns as if they were actually credible. Later investigation proved that they were murdered by off duty soldiers to set an example for other foreigners.

No one is saying Israel is evil. I am saying that IDF is not the paragon of virtue that many are trying to make it out to be.

It was this incident and another where a soldier made a US network TV journalist lay down at a roadblock and then shot him in the head, on camera, that many people realized that the Salvadoran military was also not a paragon of virtue.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Performance Anxiety
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posted 18 March 2003 03:03 AM      Profile for Performance Anxiety        Edit/Delete Post
I say "SHAME" to this whole situation!


From: Outside of the box | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 18 March 2003 03:19 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trying hard not to think of that poor girl being crushed to death.

There's little discussion here of what the bulldozer was doing and what she was trying to prevent. People's houses were being demolished by the Israeli military. This is a common occurence, and yeah, it's evil. I don't particularly blame the driver as he was just following orders, though they may have been evil orders. I don't excuse him either, but I recognise that few people in general have the courage to defy authority for moral reasons. He may not be a bad person, just a weak one.

Even fewer people have the courage to confront evil actions like these head-on as this girl did. Probably the driver didn't intend to run her down but he definitely knew she was there and didn't make her safety a priority. Why? Because he had orders to carry out. He had been instructed to destroy people's homes and protesters were making it hard to carry out his job. No doubt it wasn't the first time, either. Made him look bad to his superiors, who, I'm sure, met his complaints with a reminder to "do his job".

This is our real problem, all over the world and all through history. Human life becomes worthless in the face of the chain of command. The people who give the orders don't have to carry them out, and the ones who carry them out are unable to disobey. Humanity is precluded by authority.

Rachel died because she put herself in the way of that chain of command. She dared to defy it, deciding human life was more important, knowing that the driver had decided otherwise. The result was inevitable, if not this time, then later. Which just makes her actions and those of her compatriots all the more heroic.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 03:31 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great comment. Exuant the Dred forces.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Subotai
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posted 18 March 2003 03:54 AM      Profile for Subotai     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Guardian has posted some e-mails Rachel Corrie sent to her friends and family while she was in the Gaza Strip. In them, she describes the things she sees and tries to explain why she is there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,916246,00.html

Her death saddens me like all the senseless deaths in this conflict have saddened me. Reading the pejorative judgements of her character and actions that have been posted here and elsewhere makes me feel even worse.

No, she wasn't a saint or a martyr. She was an individual with compassionate ideals - and the will to act on them.

While we sit here in cyberspace and trade rhetoric. And turn her death into yet another game of message board one-upmanship.

I think I should stop coming here for a while.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 10:53 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jacob two-two Following orders is a Nazi is bad excuse an excuse like that would never hold up in an Israeli court.

Let me tell you about the Israeli army chain of Command there are 3 kinds of orders. Legal orders illegal orders and completely illegal orders.

Legal orders you must obey.

illegal orders you obey and then complain about.

completely illegal orders you must never obey.(Like being ordered to kill someone when it is not neccessary).

Soldiers in Israel are taught to think Morally not even learns but the Majority apparently otherwise believe me with fire power they have it could be even worse.

If there is anything that kills people it's not decpline it's anarchy.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 18 March 2003 10:53 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Justice

Something like 1900 Palestinians, and 800 Israelis have been killed since the second intifada started. Why not investigate how many Israelis got punished for the death of those Palestinians and visa versa. Then you can judge about fairness.

Another thing you could check out is how the water supply is shared. Check out about the equality of the schooling between Israeli Jews and Muslims. Etc, then tell us your opinion.

Injustices occure on both sides, I agree with you there, But if you do some searching and reading then it is hard not to come to the conclusion that justice is hugely biased.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 11:01 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know what the situation unfair on the palistinains but but here is the big but. Its not the israelis fault it's not the Israelis that walked out on a peace deal it's not the israelis that were so un compromisable.

It's not the israelis that till there chillderen that it's good to kill Arabs. It's not the Israelis that force there children to be used as human shields and through stones.

Basically israelies are suffering too from Arafts and the terorrists evil. Saddly the palistinians are suffering more for it.

and anotherthing to MoreHead I'm sorry as I showed to Jacob two-two. The Israeli army has more mroal high ground then anybody. I'l be giving alot about myself away but I don't know this just from surffing around on the IDF web-site which perhaps you should do some time look up "Doctorine" and "Humanitarian Aid" and then we'll I know this from the inside.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 18 March 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Its not the israelis fault it's not the Israelis that walked out on a peace deal it's not the israelis that were so un compromisable.

This lie is becoming tiresome. Israel was not prepared to bargain away illegal settlements or compensate displaced Palestinians for those settlements in any meaningful way. Compromise involves movement from both sides, and requires that both sides start with reasonable negotiating starting points.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 18 March 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, I don't know. If you look at the pictures in the links, there seems to be a lot of people milling about. With cameras pointed to some space in front of the bulldozer. I've also operated heavy machinery, and even with front vision obscured, there is no way to miss people all over the place. Maybe it was just a game of chicken gone bad - maybe he was expecting her to move at the last minute. But anyone worth their salt knows that you turn off your heavy machinery when there are people too close so that you don't kill them. Also, I don't see any dust flying around in the pictures, as someone used as an excuse for poor visibility.

These pictures are sick and sad. The one of her right after she was run over is haunting me. It's making me sick. There's some bad mojo in the world this week. I'm going to bury my face in my work and pull it out next week.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 18 March 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eyewitness account:

"Many of you will of heard varying accounts of the death of Rachel Corrie, maybe others will have heard nothing of it. Regardless, I was 10 metres
away when it happened 2 days ago, and this is the way it went.

We'd been monitoring and occasionally obstructing the 2 bulldozers for about 2 hours when 1 of them turned toward a house we knew to be threatened
with demolition. Rachel knelt down in its way. She was 10-20 metres in front of the bulldozer, clearly visible, the only object for many metres,
directly in it's view. They were in radio contact with a tank that had a profile view of the situation. There is no way she could not have been seen by them in their elevated cabin. They knew where she was, there is no doubt.

The bulldozer drove toward Rachel slowly, gathering earth in its scoop as it went. She knelt there, she did not move. The bulldozer reached her and she began to stand up, climbing onto the mound of earth. She appeared to be
looking into the cockpit. The bulldozer continued to push Rachel, so she slipped down the mound of earth, turning as she went. Her faced showed
she was panicking and it was clear she was in danger of being overwhelmed.

All the activists were screaming at the bulldozer to stop and gesturing to the crew about Rachel's presence. We were in clear view as Rachel had been, they continued. They pushed Rachel, first beneath the scoop, then beneath the blade, then continued till her body was beneath the cockpit. They waited over her for a few seconds, before reversing. They reversed with the blade pressed down, so it scraped over her body a second time.
Every second I believed they would stop but they never did.

I ran for an ambulance, she was gasping and her face was covered in blood from a gash cutting her face from lip to cheek. She was showing signs
of brain hemorrhaging. She died in the ambulance a few minutes later of massive internal injuries. She was a brilliant, bright and amazing person,
immensely brave and committed. She is gone and I cannot believe it.

The group here in Rafah has decided that we will stay here and continue to oppose human rights abuses as best we can. I want to add that more than 10 palestinians have died in the Gaza strip since Rachel.

Please: forward this message.

If you're wandering about Rachel: her writings, photos of her and statements on her death are available on the below website. More photos: go to
yahoo news section, search for photos by 'rachel'.

If you're wandering about the International Solidarity Movement:
www.palsolidarity.org

If you're wandering about the bulldozers: They're American, Caterpillar made armoured D9 Bulldozers. I estimate the blade is maybe 8 ft high, 15 ft
wide and more than 9 tons. They're purchased from America using the $12billion per annum military aid package that America gives to Israel. For a
report on their previous usage: go to

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html

(well worth reading - especially if you didn't believe anyone would be crazy enough to do this).

If you're wandering about Rafah: in the southern Gaza strip, next to the Egyptian border. Apart from suffering in excess from the problems all
over Palestine: Israeli manipulation of the water supply, economic strangulation, regular shootings and army operations, Rafah is afflicted by the
building of an extra border wall. It has caused hundreds of homes to be destroyed.

The house in question, that of a doctor, like dozens of others in the area is not set to be demolished because of any supposed link to militants. Only because it lies within 100 metres of the new border wall, currently in construction. Families receive no compensation from Israel, and are frequently given just a few minutes warning in the form of live ammunition being shot through the walls of their house.

tom


++ 972 (0)52 694 380
++ 972 (0)59 887 363"
-----------

Edited because some folks find boycotts more offensive than homicide by heavy equipment.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 18 March 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please: forward this message.
Boycott caterpillar
Take direct action against the Caterpillar Corporation - please do not let this be without cost to them

Uhhh ... this is kind of histrionic. I very much doubt the Caterpillar Coporation exports bulldozers to any country, thinking: "hmmmm.. our data shows our clients will eagerly buy these to run over people." Not part of the real world.

Why should Caterpillar pay any costs associated with this? It would be like the US government demanding that Stanley Tools pay costs because the 9-11 terrorists used the box-cutters they manufacture.


From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug M.
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posted 18 March 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for Doug M.        Edit/Delete Post

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Doug M. ]


From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 18 March 2003 02:22 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, what do you think he's lying about? Because if he isn't, then what happened seems clear, and worse than I thought.

What kind of order is the order to destroy people's homes, Justice? Legal, illegal, or completely illegal? Or maybe just totally immoral? Should the driver not have obeyed? Are you saying he has full culpability and not his superiors? I don't see what point you're making. In any case nobody ordered this person to run her down (which it seems he obviously did with foresight and malice). That was his own initiative.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
fatcalf
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posted 18 March 2003 02:26 PM      Profile for fatcalf        Edit/Delete Post
Behold the efficiency of Judge and Jury, all rolled into one:

quote:
(which it seems he obviously did with foresight and malice).

From: vancouver | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 18 March 2003 02:56 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
fatcalf - You obviously have never had children, or have had the horrible experience of losing a child.

fatcalf, as you obviously say this in reference to Rachel's parents, I find it troubling that you have no mention of the Mothers of Palestinian children who lose lives as a direct result of IDF terrorism (Israeli's).

I have become a firm beleiver in Palestinian resistance and effective activism. Rachel died for a cause. I think there shouldn't even be a debate about who's fault it is, when it's not the first time people have been bulldozed in and out of their homes. They bulldoze homes that militants shoot from. They have every right in the world to fire at IDF while in occupied territories. Rachel has ever right to fight for what she believes in, as I believe the same, I feel very close to her and very sad for her families and all of those victims of Israeli terrorism.

BTW, you mentioned a for lift killing people. You must be drinking. DO you know that those things can instantly change direction on a dime. They are quick and agile pieces of machinery. No Comparision to a bulldozer.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
LionKeeper
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posted 18 March 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for LionKeeper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't we let Rachel share her opinion! She is why this thread is going!




Sun Mar 16, 5:32 PM ET

U.S. citizen Rachel Corey (C), 23, bleeding from her nose and her mouth, is helped by colleagues in Rafah, Southern Gaza Strip March 16, 2003. An Israeli military bulldozer killed Corey on Sunday as she was protesting the demolition of a house in the southern Gaza Strip on Sunday, Palestinian medical officials and witnesses said. 'The bulldozer put sand on her and kept crushing her,' said Nicholas Dure, a fellow member of the International Solidarity Campaign to Protect the Palestinian People protest group. (Reuters - Handout)

Excerpts from an e-mail from Rachel Corrie to her family on February 7, 2003.

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States--something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons.

I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me, “Ali”--or point at the posters of him on the walls.

The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say "Bush Majnoon" "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited Arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: Bush mish Majnoon... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago--at least regarding Israel.

Nevertheless, I think about the fact that no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it, and even then you are always well aware that your experience is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli Army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and, of course, the fact that I have the option of leaving.

Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. Ostensibly it is still quite difficult for me to be held for months or years on end without a trial (this because I am a white US citizen, as opposed to so many others). When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting half way between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint—a soldier with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. So, if I feel outrage at arriving and entering briefly and incompletely into the world in which these children exist, I wonder conversely about how it would be for them to arrive in my world.


They know that children in the United States don't usually have their parents shot and they know they sometimes get to see the ocean. But once you have seen the ocean and lived in a silent place, where water is taken for granted and not stolen in the night by bulldozers, and once you have spent an evening when you haven’t wondered if the walls of your home might suddenly fall inward waking you from your sleep, and once you’ve met people who have never lost anyone-- once you have experienced the reality of a world that isn't surrounded by murderous towers, tanks, armed "settlements" and now a giant metal wall, I wonder if you can forgive the world for all the years of your childhood spent existing--just existing--in resistance to the constant stranglehold of the world’s fourth largest military--backed by the world’s only superpower--in it’s attempt to erase you from your home. That is something I wonder about these children. I wonder what would happen if they really knew.


As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah, a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60 percent of whom are refugees--many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Rafah existed prior to 1948, but most of the people here are themselves or are descendants of people who were relocated here from their homes in historic Palestine--now Israel. Rafah was split in half when the Sinai returned to Egypt. Currently, the Israeli army is building a fourteen-meter-high wall between Rafah in Palestine and the border, carving a no-mans land from the houses along the border. Six hundred and two homes have been completely bulldozed according to the Rafah Popular Refugee Committee. The number of homes that have been partially destroyed is greater.


Today as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. Followed by waving and "what's your name?". There is something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids: Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously, occasionally shouting-- and also occasionally waving--many forced to be here, many just aggressive, shooting into the houses as we wander away.


In addition to the constant presence of tanks along the border and in the western region between Rafah and settlements along the coast, there are more IDF towers here than I can count--along the horizon,at the end of streets. Some just army green metal. Others these strange spiral staircases draped in some kind of netting to make the activity within anonymous. Some hidden,just beneath the horizon of buildings. A new one went up the other day in the time it took us to do laundry and to cross town twice to hang banners. Despite the fact that some of the areas nearest the border are the original Rafah with families who have lived on this land for at least a century, only the 1948 camps in the center of the city are Palestinian controlled areas under Oslo. But as far as I can tell, there are few if any places that are not within the sights of some tower or another. Certainly there is no place invulnerable to apache helicopters or to the cameras of invisible drones we hear buzzing over the city for hours at a time.


I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza." Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents, but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here, instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope they will start.


I also hope you'll come here. We've been wavering between five and six internationals. The neighborhoods that have asked us for some form of presence are Yibna, Tel El Sultan, Hi Salam, Brazil, Block J, Zorob, and Block O. There is also need for constant night-time presence at a well on the outskirts of Rafah since the Israeli army destroyed the two largest wells. According to the municipal water office the wells destroyed last week provided half of Rafah’s water supply. Many of the communities have requested internationals to be present at night to attempt to shield houses from further demolition. After about ten p.m. it is very difficult to move at night because the Israeli army treats anyone in the streets as resistance and shoots at them. So clearly we are too few.


I continue to believe that my home, Olympia, could gain a lot and offer a lot by deciding to make a commitment to Rafah in the form of a sister-community relationship. Some teachers and children's groups have expressed interest in e-mail exchanges, but this is only the tip of the iceberg of solidarity work that might be done. Many people want their voices to be heard, and I think we need to use some of our privilege as internationals to get those voices heard directly in the US, rather than through the filter of well-meaning internationals such as myself. I am just beginning to learn, from what I expect to be a very intense tutelage, about the ability of people to organize against all odds, and to resist against all odds.


Thanks for the news I've been getting from friends in the US. I just read a report back from a friend who organized a peace group in Shelton, Washington, and was able to be part of a delegation to the large January 18th protest in Washington DC. People here watch the media, and they told me again today that there have been large protests in the United States and "problems for the government" in the UK. So thanks for allowing me to not feel like a complete polyanna when I tentatively tell people here that many people in the United States do not support the policies of our government, and that we are learning from global examples how to resist.

Edited to enable piture reference.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: LionKeeper ]


From: The Lion's Den | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 18 March 2003 04:43 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sarcasmobri


So you justify the use of violence. What were the palistinians willing to offer in return aside fromt the end of violence nothing. And they didn't end the violence so I didn't see why at the moment the israelis have to compensate for anything.

Personaly I would perfer the Israelies to immedately with draw the military and settelments. I think the 67 border would make sence but then I suggest putting a fence around so the Israelis can keep themselves safe.

But thats no good they'll starve to death because Arafat need more fancy cars and big swiss bank acount. It's all the Israelis fault untill there gone they'll never be peace right??!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 18 March 2003 06:11 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jaacob two-two the most likely conclusion would be that he did it with malice but I think thats for a court to decide.

I see nothing immoral about destroying a house that has been used to hide weapons or by terorrist to organize. It's not collective it's more like preventative action.

Once again I feel it would be more fair if there was a clear border.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 18 March 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You already have a whole bunch of threads about how you feel that Arafat is to blame for everything, this is thread about the death of young woman who is now dead because she has an alternate view of the world. Perhaps, you could continue your commentray elsewhere, and recognize that some of the people here are trying to mourn her death, not have a political polemic that can happen, anytime, anywhere else.

That would be nice, I think.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 March 2003 06:30 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They are not morning her death they're using her as pawn to blame Israel for everything and to show Israel is evil.

They don't out right say but they wether you awhere or not stuff like this can easily affect peoples sub-concious and all it takes is one Mad man.

I don't excuse anybody everybody has responsiblity to take.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 18 March 2003 06:39 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I ask you to repsect the tenor of the last few posts, in regard to someones death and all you can say is that people are insincere liars.

One word for that: Rude.

I truly hope that when your mother dies that people come to her funeral and stand in the audience and say that all of those eulogizing her are liars.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 March 2003 06:55 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jaacob two-two the most likely conclusion would be that he did it with malice but I think thats for a court to decide.

Well, considering the whole affairs been dismissed as an "accident", it's not like the driver or anyone else involved on the IDF side will ever stand up in court to explain themselves.

I think it's safe to say that someone charged with levelling civilian dwellings isn't going to be too concerned with the safety of whomever is in front of his blade. The IDF is not exactly well-known for their commitment to the safety of civilians in the OT.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 18 March 2003 07:07 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Furthemore, Justice, up until know I have openly, and respectfuly answered your question and responded to your commentary. Even when you were so completely ill informed about the Middle East and Israel as to actually put forward the belief that there were more Jews than there were Muslims in the Palestine Mandate in 1890.

Someone who shows clearly that they don't even have a grasp of fudamental factual knowledge can hardly be treated as an authority on whom is to 'blame' for the destruction of Palestinian society.

Frankly, you don't know anything about it, and your posts are simply vast repositories of ignorance, nothing more. That is what I should have said the first time I read what you had to say.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 18 March 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They are not morning her death they're using her as pawn to blame Israel for everything and to show Israel is evil.
Duh! They are evil, and there's nothing wrong with showing that. Israel would do the same.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 18 March 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MoreDread's


I do feel sorry and upset from what happened it should have happened but it did. My heart does go out to her and even more so her family. I know they would have never wanted this. And I don't think many Israelie's are happy about this at all. It just hurts to see people squeezing the Juice out of it to show how evil Israel is. I don't know what kind of Aid she gave to people for that she might be a saint

There is no glory in dying the only Glory is the legacy left of life well lived. It's better to live for a country and cause then to dies for it your contribution ends when you die and as long as you live you can continue to contribute. It's a real shame her life was so short I'm sure she could have helped alot of people. But I don't think getting involved like that helped. It would be better to work in a hospital or school, giving out food or something like that. She probably did and for that I think she must be great but not for risking her life no matter how guilty the Driver was.

I didn't call anybody a Liar they called me a Liar.

I don't see Israelie's dancing in the streets over this or any other death of anyone in side Palistine.I think the Israeli's have alot more respect for life and care alot more then the palistinians I do feel sorry realy sorry for them. I've had enough too. Believe me I have respect and I know the lisons are hard on everybody but both sides have alot to learn especially the Palistinains.

Blind_Patriot

I geuss thats exactly what you are a blind paitrot. I geuss your the kind of person that thinks Israel has no right to exsist. I geuss you think they are worse then Saddam and Arafat and Hitler right is that what your saying? is it?

If so I think enough has been said.

At least I can admit the Palistinains deserve a state to identify with like anyone else and the israelis are partialy responsible for their troubles but there is more then one even more then 2 sides to every story and aparently every war.

When are they really going to take responsiblity too. Never had I seen them say we were wrong but I've seen the Israeli's to thier faults many times.

If the israeli's are evil then the Arab nations around Israel and the palistinians created that evil. I do belive Evil begets Evil and Good Begets Good.

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 18 March 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 18 March 2003 09:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No matter how long you are away from Babble it alwyas seems to be the case that literally, no matter what else goes on in the world, Israel gets an inordinate amount of attention paid to it.

This was a terrible tragedy in anyone's books . Death, accidental or otherwise, is always heartbreaking.

In the Middle East it seems that death is an unwelcome guest on both sides of the conflict and we should all mourn the losses.

But does this one sad and tragic incident (and I do not mean in any way to belittle it) deserve the ongoing reverberations we see here? I know there are many other topics on Babble but it seems to me that whenever Israel commits a "sin" in the eyes of some here it is magnified thousands of times out of proportion.

Will the deaths of one American soldier or the thousands of innocent Iraquis that may die in the months to come be as readily discussed ?? Will the continuing horrors in the Ivory Coast get similar attention paid to it? Hope so.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 March 2003 10:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all, this thread was political right from the first few posts. Nobody complained when rbil made it political by comparing the IDF to despotic regimes, or when a call was made for an international peacekeeping army as a result of her death. Sorry folks, but you can't have it both ways. This thread has been political from almost the very start. No sense criticizing Justice for continuing.

I mean, come on Moredreads:

quote:
Perhaps, you could continue your commentray elsewhere, and recognize that some of the people here are trying to mourn her death, not have a political polemic that can happen, anytime, anywhere else.

This whole thread has been political. Maybe you would like to change that midstream, but that doesn't mean people have to follow along. So start a new thread called "Mourning the death of Rachel" - and see how long you can keep politics from both sides from entering into it.

Oh, and this thread is long enough. I'm closing it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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