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Author Topic: Terror attack kills 15, wounds dozens in Israel
Apples
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posted 05 March 2003 03:14 PM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Read all about it.


Oh well. I guess it's really the Israelis fault for the Palestinians "defend" themselves, right?


From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 05 March 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the US is trying to send Israel a message. I just don't understand how they get their people in there.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 05 March 2003 09:10 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The president stands strongly with the people of Israel in fighting terrorism," he said. "His message to terrorists is their efforts will not be successful. We will continue to pursue the path of peace in the Middle East."

Why do the terrorists continue to do these things? They know, without a shadow of a doubt, that Israel will retaliate in force, and that 30, 40, 50 Palestinians will pay the ultimate price, and many more will be rendered homeless. Both sides need to step back and take a reality check, but the terrorists are totally insane.


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 March 2003 11:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't understand what you mean, satana.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 06 March 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course they're insane. That's why they want to be "martyrs" and make "martyrs" of others. But they are not an organized army.

What's sad is the ordinary people who support them because they don't know what other tools they have.

Apples, there is no need to be so nasty about it. Israel just retaliated in Gaza and killed 11 people.

[ 06 March 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apples
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posted 08 March 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How many of the 11 were shooting at the Israelis? How many didn't have to be there, but came to try and kill the soldiers? Do you think the 15 people on the bus got that choice?
From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 08 March 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know, and you know what? Ultimately, I don't give a crap. We could argue about it all day long and huge numbers of innocent people would still be dying on both sides.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
LionKeeper
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posted 08 March 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for LionKeeper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apples
quote:
Oh well. I guess it's really the Israelis fault for the Palestinians "defend" themselves, right?


Well I guess .... it’s how we perceive the facts, we can keep posting crap from CNN(only because it's CNN) and continue to cloud the truth or we can talk about the real issues and the roots of this problem to help understand what is going on there.

The first truth is that there are innocent civilians being killed on both sides regardless the method of the terror. Terror not only comes in the form of an explosive belt strapped to a Palestinian boy. It also comes in the form of Apache attack helicopters, F-16, F-15, M1-A Abraham tanks dropping bombs and missiles on densely populated areas etc.

The Second truth is that the State of Israel was itself created through means of terrorism and crimes against humanity, and to this day is actively participating in state sponsored terrorism and targeted killings.

The Third truth, we need not only leaders but people who are truly interested in forming a lasting peace; a real peace, with transparent intentions on both sides.

Any decent human being knows that the atrocities have gone on long enough, for more than 50 years on both sides; they won’t stop regardless of what you post or claim. Addressing the real issues at the root level is the only solution; if you think otherwise refer back to this post in 50 years, if the world still exists!


From: The Lion's Den | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 08 March 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am new to this board but cannot help but feel a terrible sadness for both the Palestinains and Israelis.

On one side you have a poor destitute Palestinian people yearning for their own land . They seemed to have had plenty of opportunities but their corrupt leadership continues to sell them down the river while they line their own pockets with the misfortune they wrought.

On the other you have a strong-willed nation forged in blood and near annihalation. Now that they have a piece of land (and I mean a piece) they are doing what they believe necessary to maintain their saftey and existance. Tragically some of their leaders have engaged in "solutions" that are patently ridiculous leading to death and condemnation.

Some posts I have seen here are too quick to blame one side or the other. I prefer to work on the positives, look for moderates on both sides who can engage in the dialogue of peace,

Those who write about a secular Isarel are misguided at best. It cannot happen. Israel will not allow it. So we would all be better discussing ways in which we can advocate for peace on both sides.

Am I an idealist ? Maybe, but from some of the posts I have read here (everything from antisemitism to anti-Islamism/Palestinian) I prefer the high road.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 March 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
from some of the posts I have read here (everything from antisemitism to anti-Islamism/Palestinian) I prefer the high road.

Zisel, those are serious charges. Please support them with evidence.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 08 March 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bombings like this raise a lot of questions. They aren't random. Weapons are being smuggled in from somewhere. People organize and time these attacks, taking advantage of desperate youth who know no better, and training them for a purpose. These bombs don't just kill people and its over. They effect Israel's economy for weeks. They put a lot of pressure on the government to act.

The US has a "peace" plan for the middle-east. The new Israeli government has said it won't cooperate with those plans.
The usual way the US responds when things don't go the way they want them to, is by applying "pressure".

The US provides intelligence, weapons, and logistics for violent organizations all over the world. It isn't beyond them to be involved somehow in Israel.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 08 March 2003 06:24 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, I saw (and a friend told me about it...that is one of the reasons I joined) a post that is no longer on this board from a white supremacist. It was on another thread but it was posted by someone from here. The person he/she posted was Michael Hoffmann a rather well known Holocaust denier here in the USA. The offending piece was removed thank goodness.

I have also seen those who purport to be pro-Israeli treat Palestinian issues with terrible disdain. That is what I am referring to. I am sorry I did not mean to offend anyone.

[ 08 March 2003: Message edited by: Zisel ]


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
bellows
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posted 08 March 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for bellows     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know why a mile wide buffer zone can't be established between the two parties, And a UN force put there until some kind of peace treaty is worked out.
From: Corner Brook | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 08 March 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, that's what they're supposedly trying to do with their "apartheid wall."

Frankly, I would love to see more UN peacekeepers in there. I really think it's the only way. Israel is obviously not willing to do the right thing on its own. And Palestine...well, I don't know; it's hard to form a working government when you're under occupation by a foreign army.

As for opportunities...well, I don't know. Michael Lerner compared the 2000 offer at Camp David to "You can have all the rooms in your house, but Israel will keep the hallways." It effectively cut the Palestinian state into pieces.

Welcome, Zisel, by the way.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 08 March 2003 08:26 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Terror begets terror:

http://tinyurl.com/748q

Not sure that criminally negligent homicide and murder are the same, but it goes to the point that Israelis, and most Jews around the world, are living in denial. Denial as to what is being done to those Palestinians under occupation.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 08 March 2003 09:39 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Smith for the warm welcome.
From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 08 March 2003 10:38 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for opportunities...well, I don't know. Michael Lerner compared the 2000 offer at Camp David to "You can have all the rooms in your house, but Israel will keep the hallways." It effectively cut the Palestinian state into pieces.

Which is exactly what the map of Israel looked like in 1948. Each time the Arabs go to war against Israel, they wind up complaining about losing yet more territory. Israel was perfectly willing to give back the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace.

If the Palestinians didn't allow the terrorists to control the agenda in their name, the whole situation could eventually be resolved. As things stand now, perpetual warfare and mutual destruction are all they have to look forward to.
The terrorist have vowed to destroy Israel. If I were on the receiving end of such proclamations, I too would be doing everything I could to control and to destroy these self-serving lunatics.


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 08 March 2003 11:31 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If the Palestinians didn't allow the terrorists to control the agenda in their name, the whole situation could eventually be resolved.

Oh, yeah, I wonder why they haven't done that! I mean, they had plenty of time during waits at checkpoints, and refugee camps are such great places to hold press conferences...hey, while we're at it, the lower classes really should show more initiative in general...

quote:

The terrorist have vowed to destroy Israel. If I were on the receiving end of such proclamations, I too would be doing everything I could to control and to destroy these self-serving lunatics.

Yeah, and Israeli government officials have at various times vowed to force (oh, I'm sorry, "transfer") the Arab population entirely out of "their" territory. But hey, that's completely sane and not selfish at all, right?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apples
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posted 09 March 2003 12:04 AM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, and Israeli government officials have at various times vowed to force (oh, I'm sorry, "transfer") the Arab population entirely out of "their" territory. But hey, that's completely sane and not selfish at all, right?

Where are those "Israeli government officials" now? In power? Doesn't seem like it.

The Palestinian Authority, on the other hand, seems to be run by the same people who want to destroy Israel.


From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 09 March 2003 12:30 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I beg to differ.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 09 March 2003 01:05 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why does the IDF continue to do these things? They know, without a shadow of a doubt, that Hamas will retaliate in force, and that 30, 40, 50 Israelis will pay the ultimate price, and many more will be rendered homeless. Both sides need to step back and take a reality check, but the Sharon is totally insane.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 09 March 2003 02:57 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why? This is the consequence of Zionism, as shizm has said, "perpetual warfare and mutual destruction".
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 09 March 2003 07:56 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perpetual war for perpetual peace.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 09 March 2003 08:04 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To me the ultimate evil is the very notion that anyone is willing to purposely die for a cause. I just find the whole concept of sacrificing ones own life for politics to be incomprehensibly evil. That goes for Japanese kamikazes in WW2, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka (who actually do it more than anyone), those loonies from the IRA who starved themselves to death and Arab suicide bombers. Don't these people realize that when they kill themselves all they are doing is dehumanizing their own people in the eyes of the world. When the kamikazes started doing there thing towards the end of WW2, it just reinforced the idea among the Allies that the Japanese were fanatical machines that were barely part of the human race and that the only way to beat them is to drop an atom bomb.

Similarly, when Arabs commit suicide/homocide bombings it just send a message to the world that these are totally irrational people who place no value whatsoever on human life ergo: what is the point of even talking to them.

I just think the world would be a far better place if no one was ever willing to sacrifice their own life for anything.

I think that those suicidal nuts among the kamikazes, Tamils, IRA and palestinians and Sept. 11 bombers are probably all incredibly self-indulgent people with severe personality disorders and have a narcissistic need to be worshipped as martyrs after their death.

Gandhi managed to liberate all of India with barely a shot being fired! Why can't any of these people take a page from his book.

"What if they called a war and no one showed up? Oh what a wonderful world!"


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 09 March 2003 10:36 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Gandhi didn't do what he did in a vacuum...

There are fanatics on both sides. Margaret Wente wrote a column recently in which she quoted an Israeli woman saying "It is an honour to give our blood for this land." And really, why else would a person volunteer to be a settler - something they must know is both dangerous and against international law? Some do it for economic reasons, but I'd bet a lot are fanatics who are willing to take the risks for religious reasons.

I don't understand the reasoning behind sacrificing one's self for a piece of land, but clearly a lot of people do.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 09 March 2003 11:51 AM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is the consequence of Zionism , as shizm has said, "perpetual warfare and mutual destruction".

No. This is the consequence of nationalism gone mad, on both sides. To blame it only on Zionism is naked racism. It's not as if this hasn't happened in the world before. We know it will be just a matter of time before the dispute is resolved, one way or another. Projecting from the way the dispute is going right now, there won't be enough Palestinians around to enjoy the resolution.


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 09 March 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
you're right schizm, both sides are at fault. I was pulling a mishei. sorry.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 09 March 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of mishei, where is the little bugger? Haven't heard from him for a while. He hasn't been tossed, has he?
From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 09 March 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why? This is the consequence of Zionism, as shizm has said, "perpetual warfare and mutual destruction
I do not agree. While Im have concerns with some of Sharon's nastier policies, Zionism is the national dream of the Jewish people. Surely you know that almost all Jews are Zionists. Some of us however believe in the original leftist vision of Zionism and we defend the concept as a legitimate realization of the Jewish people.

From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 March 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
schizm, mishei would be unlikely to be tossed.

Your rhetoric is beginning to interest me strangely, though.

Why would you call mishei a bugger?

Further, in answer to this:

quote:
We know it will be just a matter of time before the dispute is resolved, one way or another. Projecting from the way the dispute is going right now, there won't be enough Palestinians around to enjoy the resolution.

I must react to the First-World condescension implicit in those lines. Real people are really dying -- and you feel that far above the fray? How comfortable for you.

And furthermost: You can believe if you want to that the struggle is equally balanced, that it is just to leave the resolution of this confrontation to one obviously more powerful side, backed by the only remaining superpower ... And, apparently, you can take some pleasure in contemplating the utter abasement of a dispossessed people.

As I say, your rhetoric interests me strangely.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 09 March 2003 06:56 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"national dreams" at the expense of others have caused so much destruction throughout history.

I think I'll avoid violence threads like this from now on. What is there to say? Such news can only make me sick with anger.

[ edited to remove nastiness ]

[ 09 March 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 09 March 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Its sad that so many Jews today have such disdain for other people.

That reads like a nasty slur, satana. I think it crosses the line between legitimate criticism and bigotry.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 09 March 2003 07:17 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're right, 'lance. Sorry. Again. It really hurts when people say that injustice should be accepted just because so many people support it.

I really need to take a break from this.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 09 March 2003 07:22 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Understood. I rarely take part in these discussions myself, for the same reason you articulated above, i.e., lack of things to say.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 10 March 2003 12:40 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Some of us however believe in the original leftist vision of Zionism and we defend the concept as a legitimate realization of the Jewish people.

Okay, then maybe you can tell me what that entails. Would the original leftist vision have included the transfer or subjection of non-Jews in the area?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 10 March 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I must react to the First-World condescension implicit in those lines. Real people are really dying -- and you feel that far above the fray? How comfortable for you.

No condescension intended. I was merely pointing out the reality of the situation, as opposed to the rosy idealism of the opponents of Zionism.

quote:
And furthermost: You can believe if you want to that the struggle is equally balanced, that it is just to leave the resolution of this confrontation to one obviously more powerful side, backed by the only remaining superpower ... And, apparently, you can take some pleasure in contemplating the utter abasement of a dispossessed people.

"...you can take some pleasure in contemplating the utter abasement of a dispossessed people."
Why would you even bother posting such an absurd conclusion. There was nothing in my post that could possibly lead any rational person to that verdict. I posted, sadly, that should any equitable settlement be reached in the future, there would not be many Palestinians around to enjoy it. Given their current self-destructive tactics, their numbers will be insignificant due to attrition alone. They've aligned themselves with gangs of fanatical, greedy, and self-serving thugs who do little or nothing to further their national aspirations. Any lucid person can see that. Unfortunately, the people most affected cannot see how badly they are being used by their own people, by the very people they are relying on to save them.


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 10 March 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Okay, then maybe you can tell me what that entails. Would the original leftist vision have included the transfer or subjection of non-Jews in the area?


No it would not. But it also could never have forseen events as they have turned out.

There have been too many deaths and too little understanding. The Rabin direction is one that many of us prayed for but in the end iit seems that the Palestinian leadership rejected it more for selfish pocket-lining reasons. I believe that most Palestinains would ahve lived quite well with the Rabin/Barak compromise.

The Palestinaians I have known and lived amongst in various places in Israel and the Middle East were decent people who like their Israeli neighbors wanted a pplace to call their own. They were ready to accept and live with the Barak offer. They have told me how deeply disappointed they were in their leaderships rejection of what they felt would have for the first time given them their dream, their national aspirations.

Clearly the Palestinian people are far ahead of their leadership.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 11 March 2003 02:00 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There have been too many deaths and too little understanding. The Rabin direction is one that many of us prayed for but in the end iit seems that the Palestinian leadership rejected it more for selfish pocket-lining reasons. I believe that most Palestinains would ahve lived quite well with the Rabin/Barak compromise.

An interesting re-telling of history, when it was Arafat who forced Olso down the throats of a reticent PLO. Perhaps Palestinians were not as convinced by Israel's good intentions, when they saw all the new settlements that Barak was putting up, while talking of a peace deal.

Whatever you think of that, the lopsided approach of pinning all Palestinian problems on the Palestinians or the Palestinian leadership just doesn't wash. Any marriage counsellor will tell you that pinning the failure of a marriage on one partner exclusively is just bad psychology.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 11 March 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whatever you think of that, the lopsided approach of pinning all Palestinian problems on the Palestinians or the Palestinian leadership just doesn't wash. Any marriage counsellor will tell you that pinning the failure of a marriage on one partner exclusively is just bad psychology.

Quite right, Moredreads. There is plenty of blame to go around. But, to carry your analogy further, how well would the marriage counsellor do if one partner was constantly making attempts on the life of the other, and had the stated purpose of wiping out the other, as the terrorists have done?
Just this week, Hamas stated that "No Israeli is safe" (as if they ever were). Counsel that!


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 March 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith:
quote:
Okay, then maybe you can tell me what that entails. Would the original leftist vision have included the transfer or subjection of non-Jews in the area?

That's always been the plan, from Theodor Herzl, through to Ben-Gurion and the Likud. Leftwing/rightwing, it makes no difference. Zionists want Palestine for themselves only.

quote:
With regard to the landowners, Herzl wrote in his diary: "When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently, the private property on the estates assigned to us." For the remainder of the population, he wrote in his diary on the same day: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries whilst denying it any employment in our own country."

here


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 11 March 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whatever you think of that, the lopsided approach of pinning all Palestinian problems on the Palestinians or the Palestinian leadership just doesn't wash. Any marriage counsellor will tell you that pinning the failure of a marriage on one partner exclusively is just bad psychology.


Firstly I never did say that all the problems of the Middle Eaast rests solely with the Palestinains. I would urge you Moredreads to please not put words in my mouth.

I wrote of my PERSONAL experiences based on the many years I lived in the Middle East.

Also, I do believe that Arafat is corrupt and did his people a terrible disservice. BTW, I believe that Sharon has a vision that is not consonant with Zionism as well.

That said, There are moderates on both sides, Yossi beillin. Sarieh Nussiebah and others who genuinely wish to make peace.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 11 March 2003 04:18 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Quite right, Moredreads. There is plenty of blame to go around. But, to carry your analogy further, how well would the marriage counsellor do if one partner was constantly making attempts on the life of the other, and had the stated purpose of wiping out the other, as the terrorists have done?

If you were a police investigator and you determined that in a family fight, both sides were involved in the physical dispute and yet one person had three times as many bruises and contusions as the other? Who would you determine was the most abused? The one with the least bruises, suggesting that the one with the most bruises and contusions was 'asking for it?'

I doubt it, you would conclude that the one with most bruises and contusions was likely to be the one under attack, and that the other party had not limited themsleves to purely defensive measures to ward of an attack.

I will now draw you attention to the fact that Israeli's have killed over 2000 Palestinians (with may more permanently injured) while Israeli casualties are still well under a thousand, over the last two years.

You can draw your own conclusions, but if you choose to stick with the 'bitch deserved it' crowd, then I think it is clear what side of the political line you sit on.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 11 March 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Firstly I never did say that all the problems of the Middle Eaast rests solely with the Palestinains. I would urge you Moredreads to please not put words in my mouth.

If so, then where have you mentioned such things, except when pressed. Your statements spoke glowingly of Israeli leadership (Barak/Rabin) and negatively of Palestinians leadership, while ignoring that it was Arafat who signed Oslo, against the opposition of the majority of other Palestinian leaders. In fact the process that Arafat used to affect the peace process you are so fond of was exteremly undemocratic and a perfect exmaple of the 'corrupt' means you are trashing him for. If he had not used those 'corrupt' means, the first Intifada would not have ended with the Oslo signing.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 11 March 2003 08:23 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I will now draw you attention to the fact that Israeli's have killed over 2000 Palestinians (with may more permanently injured) while Israeli casualties are still well under a thousand, over the last two years.

You can't blame Israel for doing a better job of defending themselves. BTW: How many of those Palestinian casualties were suicides? I suppose that's Israel's fault too.

and also BTW: If I were a police investigator, I'd be scrutinizing your counselling credentials verrrry carefully.


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 11 March 2003 08:58 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am begining to doubt the veracity of your statement that you have lived in the Middle East ever. Stating that the number of people who are actual suicide bombers count in any significant numbers among the Palestinians dead, show extreme lack of specific knowledge. It sounds more like CNN inspired poppycock.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 11 March 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It sounds more like CNN inspired poppycock.

Balderdash! Don't you think I can initiate my own poppycock? What malarkey!


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 12 March 2003 10:22 AM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If so, then where have you mentioned such things, except when pressed. Your statements spoke glowingly of Israeli leadership (Barak/Rabin) and negatively of Palestinians leadership,
Exactly my point there happens to be , IMO, an immense difference between the Palestinian leadership and the Palestinian people. As I said I never attributed blame to the Palestinian people and your claimm that I did concerned me because it wasnt fair.

From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 13 March 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it is very convenient to try and establish that Arafat does not represent the Palestinian people. The evidence, polls mostly, show that Palestinians still support Arafat against Israel, even if they my have problems with the way that his clique runs the PA. To them it seems the principal that "he may be a bastard, but he is 'our' bastard," may be in operation.

The fact that support for Arafat among Palestinians continues unabated, is yet more evidence that Sharon 'run and gun' policies are a failure. Israelis, by again electing Sharon, have shown that there are no real compromises being put forward by the Israel as a whole, and as a consequence they can expect more attacks.

Given that the essential inflamatory aspects of the situation, the occupation and the continued settlement of Arab land by 'new' Israelis are results of Israeli political decisions, the solution lies within Israel, not the Palestinians. An end to settlement and the occupation will go a long way to calming Arab ire, yet there seems to be no 'will' to change these policies.

The primary locus of responsibility lies with Israel, sorry.

[ 13 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
schizm
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posted 13 March 2003 08:16 PM      Profile for schizm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fact that support for Arafat among Palestinians continues unabated, is yet more evidence that Sharon 'run and gun' policies are a failure. Israelis, by again electing Sharon, have shown that there are no real compromises being put forward by the Israel as a whole, and as a consequence they can expect more attacks.

Hamas made sure that an extreme right-wing government was reelected in Israel. A more conciliatory government would compromise their aims and objectives (which do NOT coincide with the best interests of the Palestinian people).

quote:
Given that the essential inflamatory aspects of the situation, the occupation and the continued settlement of Arab land by 'new' Israelis are results of Israeli political decisions, the solution lies within Israel, not the Palestinians. An end to settlement and the occupation will go a long way to calming Arab ire, yet there seems to be no 'will' to change these policies.

Not likely to happen unless the terrorist butchery ceases and the Palestinians approach the bargaining table with a more conciliatory attitide.

quote:
The primary locus of responsibility lies with Israel, sorry.

Utter claptrap and bushwah!! Both sides must give!


From: Ontario | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 13 March 2003 08:33 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not likely to happen unless the terrorist butchery ceases and the Palestinians approach the bargaining table with a more conciliatory attitide.

The Palestinians tried this with Oslo. What did they get? More settlement.

A consistent theme in defence of the continued illegal and immoral process of settlement is the idea that it is only a 'threat' used by Israel to enforce compliance. It is not. The settlement policy is justified by the attacks, as you have just done, however the settlement policy is independent of the attacks and continues no matter what the Palestinian position is, or how they act.

Suggesting that policy of settelment is somehow linked to the attacks is a moral fig leaf used to justify land expropriation. Up until 1987, suicide bombing was non-existent but did Israel withdraw from the occupied territories and let Palestinians geovern themselves? No. After Oslo, when hostilities were at there lowest ebb, did Israel stop building settlements? No, they increased settlement construction.

The settlments only increase the need for IDF presence in Arab territories and expose Israeli's to more risk. In no way shape or form can it be considered to contribute to the 'peace' process, in fact it does exactly the opposite. If you think it does, explain to me how it does?

The Palestinians, under Arafat have given. They have given up their historic claim to full participation in all of the lands of the former Palestine Mandate, this is what Arafat gave up when he recognized Israels right to exist in letters to Rabin, and in the the Oslo accords.

[ 13 March 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 14 March 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh well. I guess it's really the Israelis fault for the Palestinians "defend" themselves, right?
Right!

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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