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Author Topic: Yves Engler's article "Is the left antisemitic?"
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 24 February 2003 01:35 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The last thread on this article had no discussion about the article itself. Since the numerous articles accusing "the left" of antisemitism have received discussion, it seems only fair that this article, aimed at rebutting those accusations, should get some response on its own merits.

quote:
Left-wing political parties and their supporters around the world have become increasingly vocal in their criticisms of Israel. Zionists on the right, and even some on the left, claim antipathy to Israel can only be understood as anti-Semitism. It’s an ideological and political minefield, and it’s obscuring the real root of the growing criticism of Israel among progressives: the perception that Israel is Imperial America’s attack dog.

http://www.rabble.ca/everyones_a_critic.shtml?x=19186


Engler thinks that the left is being consistent in its anti-imperialism, not betraying its traditioanl anti-racist stance or targetting Jews. What do people think about that argument?


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 26 February 2003 07:46 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found the article disappointing. Engler doesn't bring up the issue of Israel's racist and undemocratic nature or mention anything concerning the Palestinian plight. His explanation of the US-Isreal relationship isn't satisfying. Stephen Zune's analysis gives a much clearer explanation.

Just being anti-imperialist for the sake of anti-Imperialism is ignorant. In a way being anti-Israel is inconsistent with American imperialism. American imperialism is keeping the Palestine/Israel conflict alive. But Engler seems to blame it all on the Jewish lobby.

Instead of addressing the real source of the Israel problem, he ends up looking superficial.

[ 26 February 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 February 2003 08:11 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel's racist and undemocratic nature

Once again Satan(a) finds a way to continue "demonizing" Israel.

Hey Satan(a) perhaps you can tell us of the democratic and racist nature of Israel's neighbours including the PA, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan,Egypt,Lebanon,Saudi Arabia,Yemen....No your singular fetish is Israel and you wonder why some here question the efficacy of those who constantly centre out only Israel for approbation.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 February 2003 08:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stop calling Satana Satan. It's extremely offensive, especially after you have been corrected several times.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 February 2003 10:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When people demonize the state of Israel I can and will certainly express my feelings even in ways that you may not like. In this case demonization and satan go hand in hand.

Frankly, I am pretty sick of those on Babble who consistantly center out Israel for the worst form of abuse. Those who refer to the Jewish state as racist, undemocratic etc while ignoring the rascist murderous states surrounding the ONLY DEMOCRATIC nation in the area deserve all the critisism they get.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 26 February 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can and will certainly express my feelings even in ways that you may not like. In this case demonization and satan go hand in hand.

I'm sorry, didn't someone just ask you ( again )to play by the rules that everyone else is expected to adhere to? I must call a foul and ask that a moderator take a moment to review your continued personal attacks on this user satana. This is not what I signed up on rabble.ca for.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 26 February 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When people demonize the state of Israel I can and will certainly express my feelings even in ways that you may not like. In this case demonization and satan go hand in hand.

Calling somebody Satan because they absolutely disagree with you is unacceptable. I have a serious issue with the labeling of another poster with a religious name, such as Satan. Where do you get off? Can’t find a way to call them an anti-Semite so attack them with the equivalent of a religious slander?

What would be the equivalent in your religion? Because apparently I can call you that now with out being anti-Semite. You have made mocking a religion is fair game.

Come on? Who’s the big bad in your religion? Is it Satan as well? Can I refer to you as 666 from now on?

I am sorry but I am sick of Mishei being free to insult as he pleases and get a slap on the wrist. This was offensive and if he was on the receiving end we would never hear the end of it and how anti-Semitic we all are for not screaming for someone head and someone would get banned. This is unfair.

And changing it by adding brackets isn’t any less offensive, it still lends itself to what he intend in the first place. More blatantly than ever. If possible even less respectfully of the rules we are all supposed to play by and the moderators.

quote:
Frankly, I am pretty sick of those on Babble who consistantly center out Israel for the worst form of abuse.

Grab a clue Mishei, it isn’t abuse, except to you because you disagree. If you are so sick of it, leave, spare us your bitching.

quote:
Those who refer to the Jewish state as racist, undemocratic etc while ignoring the rascist murderous states surrounding the ONLY DEMOCRATIC nation in the area deserve all the critisism they get.

What pisses you off is that we don’t devote enough time agreeing with each other about how really bad Israel’s neighbors are. Some how you think that would make Israel look better but I only compare them to what I expect from my nation.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 February 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Folks, I have been called all kinds of names here and complaints got me nowhere.

Israel is continually demonized without perspective and all this is OK? God forbid I do a play on words on a psedonym and peoples bloodpressure goes throuh the roof. Touchy touchy.

Now since I do want to play by the "rules" and since some of you have your noses so out of joint far be it from me to continue. I will no longer refer to satana as satan. I would ask the same respect and consideration for the manner in which you deal both with me and my spiritual homeland as well.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 26 February 2003 11:48 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is continually demonized without perspective and all this is OK?

If you object to satana's description of Israel as "racist and undemocratic", then why not ask him to support his position instead of going off on a tangent about his nickname?

Just a thought.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 February 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slim I only ask that people post in perspective. Surely there are issues within Israeli polity that need addressing. But God almighty in comparision to the entire region and much of the rest of the world and given what Israel must face day in and day out, the continual focus on it alone is inexplicable. That to me is a form of demonization.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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Babbler # 2440

posted 26 February 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Slim I only ask that people post in perspective.

But other people's perspectives differ from yours. That's why we have discussions in the first place

quote:
Surely there are issues within Israeli polity that need addressing. But God almighty in comparision to the entire region and much of the rest of the world and given what Israel must face day in and day out, the continual focus on it alone is inexplicable. That to me is a form of demonization.

This is a variation on the old theme: why is so much attention paid to Isreal? There have been volumes written on it here and elsewhere. In other words, the question has been asked and answered.

Personally I reject the idea that any criticism of Isreal must be prefaced by a review of all the other states in the world with a less than perfect record. And I would add that a lot of the threads on the middle east have been started by you. If you don't want us to talk about Israel, why do you keep bringing it up?

In the interests of allowing this thread to get back on topic, I'll end here. (Besides, I have to go out and see a customer.)


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 26 February 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear Mishei, your thoughts on the content of the article would be extremely valuable.
From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 February 2003 12:52 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Personally I reject the idea that any criticism of Isreal must be prefaced by a review of all the other states in the world with a less than perfect record.
"less than a perfect record"...that's a joke right? State sponsored supression, murder, ...govenmnet by totalitarimanism, jailing without charges and trial to name a few in your "less than perfect record"...honest to God..and you wonder why I get frustrated!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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Babbler # 2440

posted 26 February 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, what swallow said. Everything else is a distraction.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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posted 26 February 2003 01:21 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you find Mishei's play on satana's pseudonym offensive, wouldn't you say that satana is, in itself, offensive and insulting to a lot of babblers? (And I will not comment on satana's obvious hatred toward Israel. Please note, I am not labelling satana an anti-semite.)
From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 26 February 2003 01:23 PM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I have to agree with Mishei on this. I think its perfectly legitimate to compare Isreal with its neighbours.

I know the argument that Isreal and its defenders claim its a democracy so the direct comparson would be to other democracies. However to ignore its geopolitical and geographical context is misguided.

In answer to

quote:
What pisses you off is that we don’t devote enough time agreeing with each other about how really bad Israel’s neighbors are. Some how you think that would make Israel look better but I only compare them to what I expect from my nation.

I would suggest its perfectly legitimate to ask why arn't other nations in the Middle East moving toward "democratic" models. Compare and contrast afterall.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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Babbler # 2798

posted 26 February 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just like Mishei to derail another potentially interesting thread.

Mishei, if you have read any of my posts before you would know that I love Israeli culture and believe Jews have a right to live in peace anywhere in the world including Palestine and all of the middle-east. I criticize Israel because I want to see it become a better country for all people who call that region home.

As for Arab states, again if you had read my previous posts you would know I have always opposed their oppressive, corrupt regimes, including the PA, by the way. I am just as critical of their legitimacy as I am to Israel's. And I am especially opposed to the European and American forces that created and continue to support them. I think I have been consistent in criticizing all these states. And I think you should pay more attention.

And get back on topic.

[ 26 February 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 26 February 2003 01:57 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll probably hate myself in the morning for daring to wade in here, but it seems to me that a nation that is always reminding everyone that it is the "only democracy in the Middle East", has an obligation to live up to those claims, or to cease making them. This is true of the United States and Canada as well, of course.

Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman UAE, etc. do not claim to be democratic and it is purely idiotic to whine that nominally undemocratic states are not democratic. No shit, Sherlock.

The point of a democratic system is that it is open to criticism and modification in accordance with the will of the polity.

If criticizing a democracy is a crime (call it anti-Americanism or anti-semitism if you like) then that so-called democracy is not what it purports to be.


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 26 February 2003 02:02 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sisyphus: well said.

quote:
Sorry, I have to agree with Mishei on this. I think its perfectly legitimate to compare Isreal with its neighbours.

In every single thread? And just how much time would be sufficient to devote to reaffirming our issues with these other countries before Mishei is satisfied that we have the right to express our disbelief at the behavior of a self-proclaimed democracy.

How many sentences must be typed before we can defend the left against charges of anti-Semitism, because Israel’s neighbors have so much to do with that particular accusation?

I think it matters more who Israel compares itself to, who it proclaims to be like, don’t you think that makes more sense. Why compare oneself to underachievers? Except to make yourself feel better for failing.

CyberNomad: As usually no much value to offer, yet again.

quote:
If you find Mishei's play on satana's pseudonym offensive, wouldn't you say that satana is, in itself, offensive and insulting to a lot of babblers?

How so and why? And really, by now I think the mod’s would have sorted it out if it indeed had offended many babblers.

quote:
And I will not comment on satana's obvious hatred toward Israel.

Except that you just did by posting that sentence, what did you think? Everybody would be too slow to catch on? And you threw in a backhanded insinuation that Satana might be an anti-Semite.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 26 February 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just like Mishei to derail another potentially interesting thread.
Me!!! Puhllllease. It was others here defending your good name that derailed this thread. I was but responding to you on your demonizing of Israel.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishie
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3798

posted 26 February 2003 05:46 PM      Profile for Mishie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Me!!! Puhllllease
Then Who? You managed to have several people kicked from babble everytime you go crying to "Audra", because they were being objective or debateful (Skills that you lack), and instead make every thread a pissing fest for you. You always get the last word Mishei thanks to Audra. I think that Audra is not doing the job that a true moderator, should be doing. But as long as you keep your sense of humour. Why was Darkhorse ban? Who made made rubble boil over? Who will be next? There was absolutely nothing wrong about anything Darkhorse said. I declare my self critical of Israel, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-semetic. I was critical about South Africa's apatheid, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-semetic either. You think there in every closet and every rug and every corner. Meshei has made this website into a farce and I think Meshei should be the one banned from babble. Derailment of this thread is an under estimate !

From: Sidelines | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 26 February 2003 06:16 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here ya go Mishie!
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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Babbler # 1064

posted 26 February 2003 06:18 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Debateful"?

Oh, Mishei? Remember where I said on the other thread that it could be worse? Scratch that, would you. My sincere apologies, and condolences.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 26 February 2003 07:07 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
O. Good. Lord.

Mishei, your comments in response to Yves Engler's articles would be invaluable.

Those who have nothing better to do than throw unfair accusations at Mishei: do you have any comments on the article?


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 26 February 2003 07:30 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Two posts on a Middle East thread dealing with Israel and antisemitism. Sisyphus, you are truly beyond help .

Swallow, I learned two things from the article. I always thought that the "special relationship" between Israel and the US was a combination of a strong, moneyed Jewish lobby analogous to the Irish lobby that supported the IRA and the role of Israel in helping to prevent a pan-Arab community.

I was unaware that Israel trained American-backed paramilitaries, but then if there is a country with better counter-insurgency and quick strike troops, I don't know what it is. Also, I'm surprised at the extent of Israel's arms exports. I had no idea that their economy was so dependent on this. Certainly, Israel is also a leader in interrogation and other intelligence-gathering techniques.

I still don't see how this article adds anything to the Left and anti-semitism debate, though, since I believe that people who use Leftist anti-Imperialism as a cover for anti-semitism know exactly what they are doing and are as implacable as David Horrowitz and Alan Dershowitz in their respective crusades.

[ 26 February 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 February 2003 08:53 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When people demonize the state of Israel I can and will certainly express my feelings even in ways that you may not like. In this case demonization and satan go hand in hand.

Saying a state is racist or undemocratic is not "demonizing" it, it's criticizing it.

Calling someone "satan" is demonizing them. We are free to criticize countries on babble. We are not free to call people "satan".

So don't do it again.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 26 February 2003 11:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So don't do it again.



quote:
Now since I do want to play by the "rules" and since some of you have your noses so out of joint far be it from me to continue. I will no longer refer to satana as satan

If you would have read my earlier post (above) you would have seen I already stated I wouldnt do it. However you didnt and then chose wrongheadedly to get into this "I will order you around" business.

You made your point earlier. This post of yours was unecessary, inappropriate and an attempt to intimidate me. If you have something personal to say after i already acknowledged I would no longer do something then do it in an PM. I do not react well to intimidation.


quote:
Saying a state is racist or undemocratic is not "demonizing" it, it's criticizing it.

Calling someone "satan" is demonizing them. We are free to criticize countries on babble. We are not free to call people "satan".


Now for the record referring to a State as racist when it is not is demonizing the state and its people. That is my honest opinion.

Inappropriately using a person's FAKE NAME on a chat board as a means by which to suggest that he/she is engaging in demonizing a people may not be nice but please give me a break. I have been called all kinds of names here from a racist to an idiot I dont recall seeing any admonitions from you or many others. . Michelle either be consistant or drop the "heavy" routine.

[ 26 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 26 February 2003 11:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forgive my double post and possible scizophrenia but Mishie's last post clearly proves my point. What's with that?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 27 February 2003 12:47 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you find Mishei's play on satana's pseudonym offensive, wouldn't you say that satana is, in itself, offensive and insulting to a lot of babblers?

I'm certainly not offended. Hell, I'm an atheist!

For all I know "satana" is the brand of fruitcake mix that that person likes to flog door-to-door when not on Babble.

"Getcher satana! Only $5.95, payable in ten easy installments!"


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 27 February 2003 01:33 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
On the whole I agree with Englers article. Although the words ‘left’, 'anti-semitic’, ‘democracy’, ‘imperialism’ are rather over used words that add little clarity to the topic.
Especially the word ‘anti-semitic’ has become a bit of a boogyman to scare little kids into submission. Although if you see it objectively it is no worse or better then being pro-semitic.

From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 08:27 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Getcher satana! Only $5.95, payable in ten easy installments!"


Careful Doc, Babble rules tell us you cannot poke fun at pseudonyms on the Board.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 February 2003 08:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Mishei, I missed that latter post of yours. I appreciate your co-operation. Thanks.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 08:49 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now as for my feelings on Engler's article, frankly I don't believe it in any way adds much to the issue.

The question as posed "Is the left antisemitic?" must be answered with a NO. However if you were to ask, "are there elements within the left that are antisemitic OR are certain members (leaders and others) making common cause with or giving support to individuals who espouse antisemitism? ..then you have an entirely different debate. And those are the questions that many here either sluff off as irrelevant or being so miniscule in numbers as to be unworthy of discussion.

I have always held that being critical of Israeli policy as one is critical of Canadian policy is no more antisemitic than the latter is being anti-Canadian.

That stated, I have posted here on numerous threads where I believe the antisemitic line is crossed. I have done so on this thread as well. When I have, I have also been excoriated for making mountains out of mole-hills.

However, antisemitism remains the longest standing and most redoubtable of racist viruses. Jews are particularly attuned to its malevolence simply because when it has been allowed to spread unchecked it resulted in the murder of innocent Jewish people over the millenium. It's called self-preservation.

The Jewish state was in part created as a sanctuary for Jews mutilated in the Holocaust and for those in Arab lands who were, post war, suffering from bigotry and degradation. The Jewish people were almost wiped off the face of the earth only 60 short years ago. Israel has become viewed since that time as its sole defender.

I don't know if many non-Jews can appreciate the way the MAJORITY of Jews feel about their survival as a people. Jews make up only a very small number (13 milliom) world wide. There remains those who continue to call for the destruction of either Jews, Judaism or the Jewish state. All three, to the vast majority of Jews, are seen as intertwined. It is seen as a fight for life a fight for survival.

Israel therefore becomes the epitomy of that struggle for survival.

Engler's piece does little to address these historical issues or to give perspective. And ultimately the question itselfe as posed is wrong in premise.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 27 February 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei

"I have always held that being critical of Israeli policy as one is critical of Canadian policy is no more antisemitic than the latter is being anti-Canadian." (Mishei)


You got me confused on this one. Are you not mixing up religion and nationality? On the one hand Israelys tell me that it is a secular country and on the otherhand all too often being critical of Israel with respect to the aboriginal people of Israel gets one labeled as being anti-semitic. It always leaves the impression that opinion, input is not wanted. Who is then the real anti-Israeli?


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 27 February 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Mishei, for the response. It appears that most people can agree, then, that there is antisemitism on the left but that the left is not antisemitic and that criticism of the policies of the Israeli government is not antisemitic.

There have been a number of articles you have linked to, which make claims like "Israel is the new Jew." Engler's point is that the rising chorus of criticism of Israel is entirely unrelated to feelings, positive or negative, about Jewish people. It is entirely the result of a belief that Israel is serving as the agent for American efforts to control the region and Israel's occupation of another country. He is thus making a direct rebuttal to the points made by people like Berger & co. And i think, within the limits of what he is trying to say, he makes a good case. What he fails to look at it how some antisemites can use the case against Israeli government actions to spread their own prejudices. (Some of what has happened on the threads related to his article have brought that home.)

The major flaw in his case is that it is so limited. As you've pointed out, it ignores the history which is so central. The trouble is that all articles posted ignore the history in its fullest sense. There are two clashing narratives of the history of Israel/Palestine. One sees Israel as the sole and necessary refuge for the Jewish people. The other sees the establishment of Israel as an disaster and displacement for the Palestinian Arab people. Neither is wrong, both are deeply held and draw on deep wells of pain and suffering. But until they are brought into dialogue with each other, until each ackowledges the truth that lies in the other, how can there be any resolution?


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 27 February 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
swallow


Maybe a bit of a case can also be made for labeling people, that are critical of Israeli policies with respect to the aboriginals, as lefties. For some that would make clear and easy lines. It would also introduce an obstacle for righties to be critical of Israel.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 27 February 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There have been a number of articles you have linked to, which make claims like "Israel is the new Jew." Engler's point is that the rising chorus of criticism of Israel is entirely unrelated to feelings, positive or negative, about Jewish people. It is entirely the result of a belief that Israel is serving as the agent for American efforts to control the region and Israel's occupation of another country. He is thus making a direct rebuttal to the points made by people like Berger & co. And i think, within the limits of what he is trying to say, he makes a good case. What he fails to look at it how some antisemites can use the case against Israeli government actions to spread their own prejudices. (Some of what has happened on the threads related to his article have brought that home.)


This is essentially the same argument that I (and others on this board) have put forward to counter the sweeping overgeneralizations of Berger and pals. Left-wing activists tend to criticize oppressive regimes, especially democratic governments that are oppressing portions of their (or other) populations. It's natural that Sharon's repeated incursions (non-stop incursions?) into the occupied territories, and his notion that collective punishment is a good way to quell militants, are going to get a negative response. It's also natural that his land-grab (via the fence) is going to be criticized. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism, and everything to do with a desire for peace and justice in the lands Israel controls.

And to several people, may I add:


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
LionKeeper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3728

posted 27 February 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for LionKeeper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yves Engler’s Article… who cares!

My comment addresses Zionist Israel, and in no way refers to the Jews of the Middle East… From my keyboard, a keyboard of a Semite.

Mishei said

quote:
perhaps you can tell us of the democratic and racist nature of Israel's neighbours including the PA, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan,Egypt,Lebanon,Saudi Arabia,Yemen....No your singular fetish is Israel and you wonder why some here question the efficacy of those who constantly centre out only Israel for approbation.

The fact of the matter is that you are right there is no freedom or democracy in the Middle East except apparently in Israel!

Let us look at the non Arab democracies in the Middle East. How about we start off with the one you refer to as the “PA” or Palestinian Authority, not to suggest that “PA” can be identified as Palestinians (we wouldn’t want the world to think Palestine actually ever existed now would we?) The democratic State of Israel has annexed and occupied their land for over 50 years, Palestinians no longer have a home land, forced to be scattered across the world as unwanted refugees… sound familiar?…all this through means of State sponsored terror, assassinations, economic brutality.

The “PA” and the rest of the Palestinians are very much part of an apartheid system that exists today in Israel. From my understanding apartheid doesn’t exist in “democracies”, and don’t give me the argument that it is not apartheid; just because it doesn’t mirror the apartheid that existed in South Africa doesn’t mean it isn’t. The truth is that is even a more vicious form of Apartheid than the system that fell with De Clerk a decade ago, because now they can point the finger at a powerless leader Arafat when things go wrong as per the so called peace accords. They have successfully removed the responsibly from themselves and put it on a powerless leader so that they can justify the atrocities, which was not the case in South Africa. But the cheap labour and control of the monetary flow into the territories is very much controlled by the Israeli as was the case in South Africa. And are you suggesting that the “Butcher of Beirut” Ariel Sharon is less of a tyrant that anyone of the puppet Arab regimes that exist today? Surely you jest! I challenge you… If Israel is a democracy why is it that the original inhabitants along with the Palestinians in the territories are not allowed to vote in their rightful land? ONE MAN ONE VOTE… the only explanation that is valid is that the Israeli state is a state that practices racism towards the Palestinians.

You’re probably thinking how you want to counter me with remarks about Hamas (terrorist or freedom fighters) which ever way you view them. It is a know fact that this organization was funded and facilitated logistically by Mosad (Israeli intelligence) to counter the effects of Arafat.

quote:
“Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,"”
(UPI) Israel breeds fundamentalism… as the motto of the Mosad goes “BY WAY OF DECEPTION WE SHALL WAGE WAR” And you ask why Israel is being identified in multiple threads as Anti-Semitic, Anti-Human, and Anti-Peace because it is.

As for the rest well I suggest you take very good note of this next point. One thing the Arabs dream of is Freedom, democracy and Sovereignty, and if that were ever to happen I assure you not even the greatest power in the world would keep Israel on the map of the Middle East not because they would be defeated in war but because the U.S. would have no need for Israel as is the case today and as was the case when they were the first country to recognize Israel in 1948. Once Israel looses its aid packages that now exceed the 10 billion mark Israel’s days will be numbered. If there is peace and stability in the Middle East between the West and the Arabs, as a whole, there would be no need for Israel’s strategic existence. After all it is all about power! (Regardless of how you want to look at it power = wealth or vise versa) If you doubt that just ask Saddam Hussein or Immanuel Noriega.

First if Arabs had democracy that would dangerously challenge the Foreign Policy of the United States of America. Imagine that the Saudi’s, Kuwaiti’s, or the Iraqis citizens telling their governments to raise oil prices in order for them to raise their standards of living of create a middle class. Dear God, what would that do… the Arabs with a democratic voice that control vast natural resources. The U.S. would never allow them to control their resources freely and democratically, they would rather wage a war every ten years in a different Middle Eastern country to maintain the status quo.
All of these countries you have mentioned have had a U.S. backing in one form or the other, democracy is not allowed in the Middle East. It is easier to deal with one tyrant who will abuse his people for the purpose of wealth, than it is to deal with a democratically elected Parliament or President that represents the will of the people as a whole.

Just some quick remarks on the others.

In Egypt, another joke! That doesn’t represent the people. For example when they demonstrate they are confined to the campuses of their Universities, or in one special occasion this week a football stadium only because there was over 100 000 participants. That is by executive order of the President.

Iran (ha ha ha) must I go into detail how the U.S. financed and backed the Khomeini while he was in France in order to weaken the Shaw at the time and it completely backfired. Creating a new threat to the region, forcing the secular Arabs to deal with a Fundamentalist Regime to the East along with Israel to the West. Oh yeah can’t for get the Iran-Contra. Hey Oliver North are you hearing me on this one!!!!!?

Or Jordan… lets see, how about the Palestinians(Refugee camps) uprising in the 70’s where they secretly asked Briton to request Israel participate in surgical strikes in Jordan to take out the Palestinian uprisings, or the vast amount of intelligence they provide to the west on Arabs all across the Middle East it’s like Langley M.E. not VA. Does we in the west believe that these regimes mean anything to the Arab People? These regimes suppress their people through a direct relationship with Israel or the U.S.

Lebanon, I’m surprised you mentioned Lebanon, considering Israel rapped, pillaged and plundered it for nearly two decades. Killed over 250 000 civilians and laid the same amount in land mines in the South of that country witch has resulted in the destruction and suffering of so many innocent people. Not that I’m suggesting that there are not innocence lost in Israel but the scale is definitely lop sided.

Really, I can go on… but I’ll wait until you respond Mishei only because I would rather pick apart your fallacies and expose you for what you are. A true anti-Semite in true meaning of the word, not the one that was made up by German racialist Wilhelm Marrih, which refers specifically to Jews. But as an Arab hater, that finds justifications for the atrocities that Israel commits against defenseless civilians. (btw Israel has the most U.N. resolutions passed against for as long as the U.N. has existed) and you ask why it's Demonized... It is the MOTHER OF ALL DEMONS!

There are two ways to deal with me… One, base what you say on facts that root from an intellectual perspective, not bullshit. Two, you can cry to the Mediator who has a bias in favor of you (obviously from reading the thread over the past month), and has unfairly dismissed those whom you cried to her about. I on the other hand challenge you to do the same to me, not because I want to pick it with you but because if you want to participate like I and the rest of these people seem to want, then use your brain not your fake tears and wining to achieve your point. Common now “by way of deception” is for Mosad covert operations only…. This is a message board, put your civilian clothes on and act like one.

And for everyone out there that needs clarification on why things are unfolding the way they are in the Middle East and around the world in terms of fanaticism as it relates to religion. As a human when you have been imprisoned for your entire life (refugee camp, occupied territories etc.) and cannot even fathom the meaning of life, let alone freedom, when all you can look towards as many of us do in a position of weakness, is faith in God. What would you expect of yourself? Then you are told that you will enter paradise if you commit yourself to martyrdom. These people's faith tells them that they will enter paradise when combating their oppressors therefore they feel like they have nothing to lose, rather gain and create a perceived opportunity for their fellow freedom fighters. Even those who are not Islamic carry out suicide attacks there are many, many Christian Palestinians that have strapped themselves in search of Martyrdom. I am not saying that this is right or wrong, nor am I saying that the Palestinians are terrorists or the Zionists that created the State of Israel through the same process are terrorists, rather I am saying that as humans on the individual level you can only hold them down for so long. And if Israeli policy which is backed by the U.S. and vise versa is not changed to reflect realism, than the Israeli’s, Arabs and to a certain extent the Americans are headed for disaster!

Those are some of the real issues... stop crying and start talking!


From: The Lion's Den | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Really, I can go on… but I’ll wait until you respond Mishei only because I would rather pick apart your fallacies and expose you for what you are. A true anti-Semite in true meaning of the word, not the one that was made up by German racialist Wilhelm Marrih, which refers specifically to Jews. But as an Arab hater, that finds justifications for the atrocities that Israel commits against defenseless civilians. (btw Israel has the most U.N. resolutions passed against for as long as the U.N. has existed) and you ask why it's Demonized... It is the MOTHER OF ALL DEMONS!


It seems to me that such epithets are not permitted on Babble. Your admonition that I am a racist that defends murdering innocent people is sick, and deserves to be brought to the attention of the moderator.

What, you think that just because you exhort me not to complain I will be afraid to do so? Uh uh ..this type of a post is so inappropriate and offensive it pales in comparision to my reference to Satana. So Michelle/ Audra how consistant will we be here?

[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 27 February 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your still here aren't you Mishei and you actually called another poster Satan, repeatedly.

And what about the rest of that post? Is that the best you can do?

As for calling you an anti-Semite, well you haven't been banned for that slander either.

I think you should have addressed the salient parts of Lion Keepers post, instead of calling for the mods, you might have earned some respect.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 27 February 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lionkeeper: Given how often I have torn out my hair regarding Mishei's posts on babble, I take great amusement in hearing that I favour him.

If you'd kept your post civil, the resulting discussion would not have been so easily derailed. It would seem it is in your best interests to do so, then, since clearly we all just want to share ideas, right? So how about we keep the discussion heavy on facts, and light on name calling. Great.

Mishei: When you say things like "how consistent will we be here?" it reads as patronizing and puts the moderators on the defensive.

[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 February 2003 08:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My word, but this has been an edifying discussion.

I find that I've been misreading satana's name for quite some time.

For some reason I thought his/her name was santana.

Oye Como Vey.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Audra, thank you for your explanation. I did not mean in any way to be patronizing. It is at times difficult to keep the eye on the ball.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 09:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think you should have addressed the salient parts of Lion Keepers post, instead of calling for the mods, you might have earned some respect.


I gave a full response to my position of Englers article. OK you disagree or did not like it...does that mean I ave to answer the question the way you demand?

As for "calling for the mods" I expect to be confronted, argued with and even heavily and unduly critisized. I can live with all of that. I will not stand for racist slurs and innuendos against me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
orpheus
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3513

posted 27 February 2003 10:33 PM      Profile for orpheus        Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps the best response to Engler's article is this one by Michael Hoffman II:

[edited by audra to remove anti-semetic content]

[ 02 March 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: Seoul | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 10:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michae Hoffman is a Holocaust denier and well known neo nazi. Why would you post this shit?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
orpheus
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3513

posted 27 February 2003 10:41 PM      Profile for orpheus        Edit/Delete Post
Here's one that poses the question CNN Talkback Live will never ask its live audience: "Is Judaism Evil?" (Last year CNN Talkback Live posed the question "Is Islam Evil" to its audience and panel of debaters. (Aug.14th/02)
quote:
Times of India Hits Israeli Racism

Outside of America, fury at the Israelis continues to build. The following is from yesterday's edition of the leading newspaper on the Indian sub-continent, the Times of India:

"The horrors of the Nazi holocaust suffered by the Jewish community over 50 years ago have been politically appropriated by Israel to position itself as a perennial potential victim surrounded by implacable foes. But, over the years Israel has, by its own actions, undermined all this goodwill.

"From being the oppressed, it has turned oppressor with a vengeance. It is no one's contention that the Israelis stand by and be attacked by armed Palestinian youth. But does any civilized nation respond to stones by opening up with heavy artillery and helicopter gunships? Israel does so and believes it is right to do so. It has adopted a position that it is willing to inflict awesome damage on the adversary in order to minimize its own casualties. This attitude suggests that it does not accept that the Palestinian it confronts on the streets of the occupied territories is even of the same species as the Jewish people."

Talk about hitting the Talmudic nail on the head! The Indian editor makes the two main debating points we need to articulate repeatedly: 1. Though it is claimed to be an indispensable enhancement of human rights, the ""Holocaust" industry is the main prop justifying and excusing the Israeli slaughter of civilians. 2. Israeli atrocity, apartheid and expulsion are predicated on the principle that Palestinians are not human beings like Jews are (something tacitly seconded by the American media). This principle is straight out of the Jewish religion. For example, Maimonides ruled that non-Jews are not human (Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11).

With these two points we create an unbeatable equation: opposition to the religion of Judaism and the cult of "The Holcaust" --rather being racist or hateful -- actually combats racism, diminshes hate and saves lives.


What do you think of this article?

From: Seoul | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 27 February 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Despite our differences we must all work together to ensure that posters like Orpheus who are clearly neo-nazis be thrown off any progressive Chat boards especially when they engage in this vile antisemitic GARBAGE. Orpheus is a racist pig.

[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 February 2003 10:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy Jebus.

Orpheus, sorry, but "Is Judaism Evil" is not an acceptable question to ask. I don't give a damn whether you make the excuse that it's a religious philosophy and should be questioned. When you start posting stuff like

quote:
opposition to the religion of Judaism and the cult of "The Holcaust" --rather being racist or hateful -- actually combats racism, diminshes hate and saves lives.

then that's crossing the line as far as I'm concerned. Enough. You can disagree with Israeli policy without slandering the Jewish religion (and its adherents) as a whole.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 27 February 2003 10:53 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What do you think of this article?

First of all, I think you should provide links so we can check out your sources.

Secondly, this paragraph alone is disturbing:

quote:
With these two points we create an unbeatable equation: opposition to the religion of Judaism and the cult of "The Holcaust" --rather being racist or hateful -- actually combats racism, diminshes hate and saves lives.

It gives every indication of someone with a specific and unpleasant agenda who is quite prepared to cherry pick his facts, and embellish them as necessary, to further it. In other words, I don't think much of it at all.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 12:01 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:

Orpheus is posting well known antisemitic and neo nazi tracts from a recognized Holocaust denier and antisemite. Michael Hoffman 11 was a supporter of Ernst Zundel's during his trials and is well known in white supremacist circles. When you post anything form this man you HAVE to know who he is

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 28 February 2003 12:48 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Talmudicized?"

I don't get it. Fundamentalism is frightening no matter who practises it, but...feh, I suppose I'd best consider the source and be glad I don't get it.

quote:
Hey Satan(a) perhaps you can tell us of the democratic and racist nature of Israel's neighbours including the PA, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan,Egypt,Lebanon,Saudi Arabia,Yemen....No your singular fetish is Israel and you wonder why some here question the efficacy of those who constantly centre out only Israel for approbation.

I'll tell you what, Mishei. How about you pick another regime to support. Let's say Iran. Theocracy is necessary to preserve Shi'a Islam, or something. The moral fibre of the people is under threat. Or that's what you'll say. In the meantime, let's get the USA to spend a third to a fifth of its annual aid budget on Iran for oh, 35 years. Point out that the Iranian government is so much better than, say, the Taliban or the Khmer Rouge or Nazi Germany.

When you've done all that, if we still focus "exclusively" on Israel, you can call us any name you want. Won't you like that, Mishei?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
LionKeeper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3728

posted 28 February 2003 12:58 AM      Profile for LionKeeper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mz. Mediator, and others on this message board. I as a contributor do not ever have the intention of directly or indirectly offending anyone of you. I do intend to engage in meaningful dialogue and exchange views and ideas, to help stimulate my interest and yours.

I am not flawless in content or in styles of writing in this medium we are using to engage in opinioned dialogue, I may at times step beyond acceptable boarders as have some of my fellow rabbleites, but it is never my intention to insult any Religion, Race or Cree. I would never harm the essence of humanity with my words. In some cases I may even leave unanswered questions or perceived innuendoes. However, it is my position as a human of this planet to think universally when addressing the issues of concern while displaying firmness in my comments. My participation here (at Rabble) is to present factual information that I can back up, to help us in the search for Truth, and proliferate these Truths.

I in fact am a Semite myself and I am disappointed how much abuse the term “anti-Semite” has taken. It is too broad of a term to use with those who have detailed understanding of the term itself and the meaning implied by it. Which can easily vary from person to person? I think if anyone is explicitly talking about a Jew, Muslim, or Christian to refer to them as such. To help distinguished exactly what it is that the writer is trying to communicate.

I have a wealth of Jew’s that are family, friends, and neighbors and many of them are non-Zionist. For me to suggest that I am anti-Jewish would be to suggest I am opposed to everything I believe in. To suggest that I am Anti-Zionism means I firmly stand behind everything that I and many Jews in my community stand for. But it doesn’t make me or anyone who opposes the State of Israel’s action by any means anti-Semitic.

Mishei

“What, you think that just because you exhort me not to complain I will be afraid to do so? Uh uh ..this type of a post is so inappropriate and offensive it pales in comparision to my reference to Satana. So Michelle/ Audra how consistant will we be here?”

No it is not my intent to scare you so that you won’t complain, rather I’m putting you on notice that I will be on top of what you negatively propagate and back it up with convincing evidence, to prove you wrong! I am certain that I can come across with all my points in an acceptable, logical, and intellectual manner. All I ask is that you deal with me on the same level, I have read how you created distress among the contributors even encouraging their dismissal, I believe that knowledge is superior to ignorance and though this mechanism I will prevail in this forum.

Scout

“I think you should have addressed the salient parts of Lion Keepers post, instead of calling for the mods, you might have earned some respect.”

Thank you for that comment, which is precisely why I’m here. I encourage Mishei and others to address what I have written because this is what this place is about.

Now Mishei about you position when you stated the following in relation to the LionKeeper:

“As for "calling for the mods" I expect to be confronted, argued with and even heavily and unduly critisized. I can live with all of that. I will not stand for racist slurs and innuendos against me.”

Nice… but then you go on to say….

“Despite our differences we must all work together to ensure that posters like Orpheus who are clearly neo-nazis be thrown off any progressive Chat boards especially when they engage in this vile antisemitic GARBAGE. Orpheus is a racist pig.”

He posted an article and asked “What do you think of this article?”

And that is the response that you gave him. Now if he is a racist I agree. However, I haven’t read much of Orpheus, although, maybe he is bringing to light that this stuff circulates out there. Simply present fact to counter what he says instead of engaging in name calling.

Michelle I am not in anyways suggesting that I agree with what that article says and I can disprove many of the points made in it. So I don’t want you to get offended by what I just wrote above, I was driving another point home. So what's the deal with Hoffman? He’s a Jew but where exactly is he going with all of this?

On the question of Evil

The fact is that it is unacceptable to ask the question “Is (Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism or any great religion) Evil?” It is simply not acceptable; as the earlier comment by Orpheus displayed, How CNN the most powerful information media proliferators would even contemplate asking such a racist question, is beyond me. Is Ossama Bin Laden Evil? Yes, O.K. I agree with that approach but to suggest that the oldest religion Judaism, or the largest religion Christianity, or the fastest growing religion Islam is Evil. Is in itself Evil.


From: The Lion's Den | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 February 2003 02:42 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what's the deal with Hoffman? He’s a Jew but where exactly is he going with all of this?

Well, frankly, I think he's a nut. I punched in Hoffman's full name into the google search page and got back his homepage as the first returned entry, which is a "revisionist history page" which is usually code for "Holocaust denial and World War Two revisionism".

Such deniers usually carefully claim that they do not "deny holocausts" by choosing to call almost anything else a holocaust, even though by the standards of modern history the closest that such an appellation applies other than to the Holocaust visited on Jews in World War 2 would be the Turkish genocidal acts against Armenians and the deliberate actions taken against Indians in North and South America ranging from the lack of concern when it was discovered that they had caught a smallpox epidemic, to systematic armed battles designed to force them off their land and appropriate it for the US's "Manifest Destiny", or the British "White Man's Burden".

But I digress.

I wouldn't use Hoffman as a source for anything except an example of nuttiness.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orpheus
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3513

posted 28 February 2003 04:33 AM      Profile for orpheus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Orpheus, sorry, but "Is Judaism Evil" is not an acceptable question to ask.
Well, dinky brains, I never asked that question. I posted an article and asked what you thought about it. CNN, however, really did ask "Is Islam evil?" so perhaps you could direct your outrage there. I was just pointing out how the Islamic religion and culture is abused in the mainstream without much protest, while you can't even talk about any negative apsects of Judaism without getting your head blown off.

Is the left anti-semitic? Hell yes, if 'semitic' includes Arabs and Muslims.

Didn't know Michael Hoffman was a freak. But anyways, you should refute the article instead of slinging shit around.

quote:
even though by the standards of modern history the closest that such an appellation applies other than to the Holocaust visited on Jews in World War 2 would be the Turkish genocidal acts against Armenians and the deliberate actions taken against Indians in North and South America
You forgot the Indo-chinese holocaust.

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: orpheus ]


From: Seoul | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 09:04 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Micahel Hoffmann is not Jewish he is a neo nazi racist. I would have had a second look at Orpheus had he acknowledged his "mistake" in posting from a Holocaust denier/antisemite...instead he wished us to "refute" ugly and evil hatemongering. No more doubt in my mind.

quote:
I have a wealth of Jew’s that are family, friends, and neighbors
Of course you do.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 10:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unlike Orpheus I will not post Hoffmanns garbage verbatim on this site because in my opinion it violates Canada's hate laws and would put Rabble in legal jeopardy.

However for those who are still not convinced that Hoffmann is an out and out antisemite please feel free to send me a PM and I will forward to you a website of his that will make you vomit.

In that light it behooves Rabble authorities to remove the posts from Orpheus ASAP as they IMHO constitute hate propaganda against Jews. This could be a serious violation of Section 319 of the criminal code which makes it a criminally indictable offence to knowingly and wilfully promote hatred against an identifaible group identified by race, creed colour nationality...

Please Babble doesn't need this shit, nevermind the fact that it is clearly contrary to Babble policy.

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 28 February 2003 11:18 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei - PM Audra...she may not have been on since the latest spew hit this thread.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Mishei, lighten up! The guy said he didn't know what Hoffman stood for. Are you trying to turn Babble into a neo-Stalinist site where threads are "airbrushed."
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, "lighten up:??? Orpheus had to know simply by reading this bilge. How stupid do you think he is?

Secondly, unlike the USA Canada does have hatye laws which it takes very seriously. Sitting in the comfort of your American home you do not have to concern yourself with it. Babble on the other hand must.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know how stupid he is. Do you?

And frankly, I'm sick of you waving around the hate speech law every time you see something you consider offensive. Just confirms my belief that such laws have a total chilling effect on free speech.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh frankly, you can hate me for waving it around, it still does nothing to deal with the fact that this material is vile hatemongering that has no place on a progressive board. I cannot fathom why you would defend its placement here.

I understand your dismay over our hate laws but that too is a bit patronizing. They are Canadian laws upheld by our Supreme Court. Perhaps the American view of hate laws is wrong ever think of that? Ever consider that the USA is virtually the only western democracy that does not protect its vulnerable minorities from hatemongers like Hoffmann?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your not talking about protecting them from Hoffman. You're talking about protecting them from Orpheus.

Would you really file a criminal complaint against babble? Don't you feel confident in your ability to debunk such assertions?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would never file such a complaint. But you just dont seem to get it. Babble is a public board. Anyone coming on to this Board reading the postings from Orpheus/Hoffmann can file a complaint. So I am suggesting that we not only adhere to babble policy but at the same time not place babble in a position that it could be seen in violation of the law.

Secondly you also dont get it. Why should anyone engage vile hatemongers in debate? Why give them that kind of legitimacy? Would you honestly engage Holocaust deniers in a debate as to whether 6 million Jews were murderered? I hope not. So when a hatemonger like Hofmann gets posted on babble, a progressive board that eschews racism and antisemitism, why would we want to enage such bigots and why would we leave this garbage here? It stinks.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you're objecting to the fact that he posted something from Hoffman, not to the excerpt he actually posted, which has nothing to do with Holocaust denial? So your objection is ad homenim, not substantive?
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 12:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, I am objecting to the fact that he posted TWO vile antisemitic tracts that should not be tolerated by any decent person . I am objecting to the fact that antisemitism such as the posts in question have no place on a progressive board.

I am objecting to the fact that babble would maintain these racist posts on the board. And I object to the fact that you would in any way defend these loony, racist posts.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not defending the views. The "worse than Hitler" comment is vile, despicable and blatantly untrue. But Orpheus intention in posting, I think, was to point out the hypocrisy between the media's treatment of Islam and Judaism. I may or may not agree with that sentiment, but I don't consider it "hate speech." To take one example, I think Jews have too often used the Holocaust to justify control over the occupied territories. I find that to be despicable. And pointing out that fact is certainly less despicable than an government which includes racists such as Lieberman and Eitam.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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Babbler # 2926

posted 28 February 2003 01:00 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think Jews have too often used the Holocaust to justify control over the occupied territories.

Careful, counsellor ... you're at the edge of the abyss.
josh, you are not being fair to Mishei. We (Canadians) do have anti-hate laws, whether anyone likes it or not. orpheus' postings are, imo, in violation of those laws.

As a side comment ... it seems that you are not immune from applying the racist label whenever it suits your argument.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cyber I agree with you so why are the posts still here??
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 28 February 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I disagree that the above statement by Josh is racist - perhaps he should have specified which Jews he was referring to - uncritical defenders of Israeli policy and actions - but I think the intent is clear. Namely that the worst racism and human rights violations and history must not be invoked in support of any other denials of human rights. Many prominent Jews - not only Chomsky or Finkelstein but in 1982, Primo Levi, Natalia Ginzburg and Jacobo Timerman - all of whom suffered unspeakable antisemitic horrors at the hands of the Nazis and the Argentine dictatorship - in their statements against the Sabra and Chatila massacres and the Israeli role in that atrocity.

We are getting a bit off-topic here with the neo-Nazis and holocaust deniers, I think. I'll have some questions about Zündel and his ilk (glad to be able to use that word...) but I'll look up the thread about that.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 01:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CN, I don't object if someone decides to state he or she belives that another's views are racist. Although I do believe the term is overused. What I object to is censorship, and self-appointed censors. But you have a point, racist may not be the best description for the likes of Lieberman and Eitam. Perhaps "ethnicists" is a better term, since those two are Israeli versions of Milosevic.

Of course, I won't hold my breath waiting for you or Mishei to address the question of what they are doing in an Israeli government. To me, that is a far bigger obscenity than anything Orpheus posted.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Subotai
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Babbler # 3435

posted 28 February 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Subotai     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm all for reasonable discussion unclouded by personal attacks and knee-jerk reactions.

But Mishei is right. Michael A. Hoffman II is the real deal: a blazing anti-Semite. He is a staunch Holocaust revisionist and a proud supporter of the likes of Ernst Zundel and David Duke. He's been billed as a guest speaker at white supremacist gatherings. In his writing, he casually refers to homosexuals as "degenerates." There's nothing to redeem him.

Hoffman's work, like that of a lot of extreme right "intellectuals," promotes anti-Semitism under the guise of credible argument. But their arguments are guided by hatred rather than reason.

In one paragraph, they will dismiss the Holocaust as a Jewish public relations conspiracy. In another paragraph, they will praise the Holocaust for its efficiency. How they can simultaneously reject and revel in a historical event defies logic. You can't debate with someone who isn't being rational. To even engage them on that level gives them too much legitimacy.

I would hope that the writing of Hoffman and his ilk have no place on babble. I would seriously question the motives of anyone who would post excerpts of such writing in this context.

I support freedom of speech. But there are definitely people on the extreme right who see the Israeli / Palestinian debate as an opportunity for greater exposure of virulent anti-Semitism. We on the left have to be vigilant about this sort of thing. It discredits our legitimate criticsm of Israeli policy. When we're quoting the work of known neo-Nazi sympathizers, there's something amiss.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 28 February 2003 02:32 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
It is not that uncommen that we have had to revise history. People that question history should not be deleted, sure often they end up being mistaken. But why not keep an open mind that things are not always as they seem to be?

All we have to do is look at some of our history here in Canada, to realise that perseption does not always reflect reality.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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Babbler # 2926

posted 28 February 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
josh, I will not argue with your image of Avigdor Lieberman and Effie Eitam; suffice it to say that, to a lot of Israeli voters, they are worthy of elective office. They are patriots, in much the same way that Americans hold theirs. If you see a problem with them wanting to place the safety and security of their country above all else, hey, be my guest; not that I'll agree with you.

As to what they are doing in government, you've got to ask Prime Minister Sharon who appointed them. Not to appear facetious, I would add that Israeli politics has its own unique complexity which is beyond my own capability to understand, seeing that I live as I do -- like you -- in a tranquil and peaceful country void of suicide-bombers and other such fanatics.

A final cautionary note ... equating Israeli elected parliamentarians with Nazis is beyond rationality.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 28 February 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never equated that with Nazis and you know it. I equated it with comments made by some nut-job. Objectively speaking, what is important, the ravings of some lunatic or advocates of ethnic cleansing in positions of importance.

And I was not challenging their election. I don't believe in banning political parties. As you point out, I was challenging Sharon's decision to include them in government. As for them being "patriots," I'm sure many Serbs considered Milosevic to be a patriot as well.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 03:05 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is not that uncommen that we have had to revise history. People that question history should not be deleted, sure often they end up being mistaken. But why not keep an open mind that things are not always as they seem to be?
All we have to do is look at some of our history here in Canada, to realise that perseption does not always reflect reality.


Holocaust deniers are engaged in antisemitism. Historical revisionism occurs all the time but historians do not start by DENYING the event altogether. For example no one denies that the USA dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. However the interpretation and analysis of that tragedy is evaluated and revised all the time.


And what do you mean by "keep an open mind". Deniers want your open mind to the fact that 6 million Jews were not killed , that there was no Holocaust. Surely Bubbles you are not telling Babblers that we should keep an open mind to that?


Deniers have no interest in history their interest is in poisoning peoples attitudes towards Jews. So let us not give them one inch. They are bigots and hatemongers.

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 28 February 2003 03:22 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei


"Deniers have no interest in history their interest is in poisoning peoples attitudes towards Jews. So let us not give them one inch. They are bigots and hatemongers" (Mishei)


What would prevent me from saying that you could be poisoning my mind? Mishei, I do not mean to be offensive, but I prefer to make up my own mind. I do not wish to be shielded from others.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bubbles, are you saying that you have an "open mind" as to what Holocaust deniers say? Do you believe the Holocaust happened? Simple question bubbles. I await your response.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 28 February 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei


Blood sacrifices have nodoubt been many, too many. I have little doubt that many people were killed in the second world war, someone told me 120,000,000 plus or minus alltogether, 6,000,000 plus or minus were Jews, the number of Christians, Buddist, Hinduists and Muslims that were killed I would have to check, it is knowledge that is not so readily available. I wonder why?


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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Babbler # 2926

posted 28 February 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
josh, challenging Sharon from here, when the very best in Israeli politics have failed, is quite quixotic, don't you think?

If I may suggest, Milosovic's world is vastly different than Israel's. It's an unfair comparison.


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1471

posted 28 February 2003 04:23 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
6,000,000 plus or minus were Jews, the number of Christians, Buddist, Hinduists and Muslims that were killed I would have to check, it is knowledge that is not so readily available. I wonder why?

You wonder, do you? I doubt that you're so ignorant about the nature of the Holocaust, so there's no need to respond.

One thing is clear here. The answer to the question "Is the left antisemitic?" must be NO. The Left's recent focus on Israel, nevertheless, has attracted various hangers-on with anti-Semitic motivations -- some of them have already been banned from this website, and I suspect another one might soon be.

But I would also like to see a more careful examination (and critique) of the Left's anti-imperialism, which raises problems different from anti-Semitism. Anti-imperialist rhetoric can have racist implications of its own -- that only Western political actors are morally culpable for their actions, for instance.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bubbles nice dodge. Look, many millions were kileed during WW2 as a result of the trasgic fallout of war. However SIX million jews and thousands of Roma were specifically chosen by Hitker for annihalation. They were to be eradicated like vermin.

Jews specifically were on Hitler's list and everyone from babies to the elderly were to murdered. And they were by firing squad, starvation and gas chambers. That is what was known as the Final Solution of the Jewish question and only the Jews were so targetted. So once again do you accept the fact that there was a Holocaust? Please, a Yes or no will suffice.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 February 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hate it when people ask for a "yes or no answer only". What the hell is this, a murder trial?

quote:
Careful, counsellor ... you're at the edge of the abyss.

Please. What edge of what abyss are you claiming josh is at? Spell it out.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 28 February 2003 04:49 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei: I. work. part. time. So maybe stop being all "why hasn't this been fixed yet?", okay?

Orpheus: Posting hateful material is a violation of babble policy. Keep it up, and you'll find yourself banned.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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Babbler # 2798

posted 28 February 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, do you believe in Jesus Christ?
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 February 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What the hell...?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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Babbler # 1471

posted 28 February 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems fair for Mishei to ask Bubbles whether he believes that a Holocaust occurred -- especially given Bubbles' "wonder" over the subject. Especially given the fact that this thread is about the issue of whether the left is antisemitic, and Holocaust denial is often an integral part of anti-Semitism.

Satana's question --

quote:
Mishei, do you believe in Jesus Christ?

is clearly and simply race- (or rather, religious) baiting.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 February 2003 05:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure it's a rhetorical gambit since satana presumably knows as well as the rest of us that Mishei is Jewish. I just wish satana would lay out whatever it is s/he wants to say straight instead of the theatrics.

BTW, Satana, you have about 10 posts to flesh out whatever your point is going to be, because by then (thank GOD) this thread is going to be CLOSED.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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Babbler # 2798

posted 28 February 2003 05:12 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry. I wasn't serious. I just felt that baiting anyone is somehow wrong, no matter what you believe. I don't know. Forget it. Sorry.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 28 February 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However SIX million jews and thousands of Roma were specifically chosen by Hitker for annihalation. They were to be eradicated like vermin.
Jews specifically were on Hitler's list and everyone from babies to the elderly were to murdered. And they were by firing squad, starvation and gas chambers. That is what was known as the Final Solution of the Jewish question and only the Jews were so targetted.

See Mishei, this is what gets my goat about you. Leaving aside the fact that the last sentence you wrote is not true, you seem to think that the horror of Hitler's Final Solution offers you the justification to yell "Anti-semitism" whenever someone dares to suggest that other events in human history (or in the future, I would speculate) can be discussed as equally repellent.

Is this because you believe that the Holocaust was only a Jewish event? It wasn't. Millions of non-Jews died in the death camps. Instead of seeing the Holocaust outside of its specific historic context and Hitler's specific, but not exclusive, desire to eliminate Jews, you instead appear to hold it up as a mark of some sort of weird "victim elitism". It was an obscenity and outrage to all people.

The Holocaust should be a clarion call to all of us, whatever nationality or culture we identify with, to fight all state-sponsored mass murder. "Never again!". Never again? Cambodia and Rwanda cry out that we have learned nothing. As long as any people can be considered "other" or unimportant, it will happen again.

As long as the United states has the torture camp in Guantanamo Bay, filled with the now all-but forgotten "illegal combatants", that warlords are allowed to regain control of Afghani lives, that Hindus can slaughter Muslims in Gujarat, that indigenous Colombians are murdered, tortured and forced into destitution and that the most powerful propaganda machine in the world is printimg lies to gain support for cruise missiles to rain down on a defenceless population at a rate of almost 1 every 30 seconds for TWO DAYS, the Holocaust serves as nothing but a grim footnote in history to which many more will be added.

That we don't recall it as being a loss to all of us, that it becomes a weapon of entitlement and a defence for the murderous actions of those who would pervert the power of two nation-states to oppress a destitute, landless people seems to me far more tragic than the pitiful attempts of few hate-filled morons to attempt to expunge from history the most-documented period of human evil.

My heritage is polish, mishei. My uncle Stanislaw was an inmate of Aushwitz and one of my godfathers spent much of the War in Buchenwald.
Neither of them was Jewish. Here is a quote by Hitler from a speech made at Berchtesgaden on August 22, 1939. The emphasis at the end is mine:


quote:
Our strength is in our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children killed by his own will and with a gay heart. History sees only in him a great state builder .... Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my "Death's Head Units" with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish race or language. Only in such a way will we win the vital space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?

I think you dishonour those who died in the camps by bringing it up as a debating ploy.

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2926

posted 28 February 2003 05:37 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think you dishonour those who died in the camps by bringing it up as a debating ploy.

What a disgusting thing to say to Mishei. You do it because you know that Mishei is a gentle soul and will never stoop to gutter-depths to answer you as you should be answered.
Sysyphus, here's my Trudeau-finger.

[edited for typo]

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: CyberNomad ]


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 28 February 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CN, I have no intention of challenging Sharon. Although I'm flattered that you would think of me. If I did, I'd kick his fat ass around the block.

In what way is the Milosviec comparison unfair, other than the fact that you obviously do not wish to acknowledge it?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 28 February 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One thing is clear here. The answer to the question "Is the left antisemitic?" must be NO. The Left's recent focus on Israel, nevertheless, has attracted various hangers-on with anti-Semitic motivations -- some of them have already been banned from this website, and I suspect another one might soon be.

But I would also like to see a more careful examination (and critique) of the Left's anti-imperialism, which raises problems different from anti-Semitism. Anti-imperialist rhetoric can have racist implications of its own -- that only Western political actors are morally culpable for their actions, for instance.


One thing this thread and the last have convinced me of is that there are a great number more people with antisemitic motives taking advantage of legitimate critiques of Israel than i'd thought.

Whazzup, that suggestion of a discusion of anti-imperialist rhetoric might be a useful one, i'd love to see a thread on it somewhere. Not here though, since given what's become of the thread i rather regret having started it.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 28 February 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CN, right back at you. I stand by my opinion and it was considered. I have seen many thoughtful, legitimately questioning posts left unanswered and unrebutted all through recourse to name-calling, specifically "anti-semite", which is especially cheap in this discussion forum since racism is almost unanimously abhorred here. I don't think mishei is any more "gentle' than most of the rest of us and I have seen him/her sling more than his/her share of ad hominem attacks around. Certainly it's a rare contributor to the Middle East/Israel threads who has not been labelled an anti-semite implicitly if they dare to question mishei's sources and posts.

To paraphrase someone on this group, CN, maybe you should look within yourself to find out why you found that line of my post so offensive.


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
orpheus
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3513

posted 28 February 2003 07:49 PM      Profile for orpheus        Edit/Delete Post
I think Sisyphus has eloquently put all this into perspective. Many many people suffered under the Nazis. Mishei's attitude of 'victim elitism' is low and contemptible especially when it is used to justify and silence criticism of the horrendous crimes carried out by the Israeli government. It shows only a racist contempt for Arab suffering. Mishei, your racism runs pretty deep and shameless. I'm tired of your ethno-centric attitude. Try looking at the human costs and try seeing that we are all one big family of humanity and that the crimes of Hitler, Kissinger, Sharon and others are crimes against all humanity.
From: Seoul | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 28 February 2003 07:53 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Holocaust should be a clarion call to all of us, whatever nationality or culture we identify with, to fight all state-sponsored mass murder. "Never again!". Never again? Cambodia and Rwanda cry out that we have learned nothing. As long as any people can be considered "other" or unimportant, it will happen again.

Indeed.

As for denying that it happened, well, I've seen many people entirely denying that purges and other atrocities have happened to Arabs in what is now Israel, with nary a peep from Mishei. I have been told that there were virtually no Arabs there before 1948, or that they were only there to get in the way, or that they did not deserve to be on the land because they did not "make the desert bloom," or whatever else. And somehow this justified, or erases, acts of terrorism performed against them. And that is what happens and has happened on both sides - terrorism. And we are told not to see it, for if we do, we may be "crossing the line."

I am opposed to denial in all its forms. I do not think it is ever acceptable to deny or denigrate another people's loss. But that is what we are asked to do, day in and day out, by Mishei and his supporters. The Holocaust is unmatched in history; it is unique, there is nothing worse. Not yet.

That does not excuse other, smaller-scale injustices. The Holocaust did not start with death camps; it started with small injustices and it grew. We must be vigilant - and not only on the behalf of the Jews; on behalf of all disenfranchised and vulnerable peoples.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 February 2003 09:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If we may bring the thread back to the subject of the Left and antisemitism or Anti-Semitism or however it is hyphenated or not, I would like to note that nobody I know states that Israel and Israel alone should cease to exist as a nation-state.

Those that do state that nation-states should cease to exist apply the logic with equal vigor to all nation-states that they see in the world, as they are the truest internationalists.

Furthermore, it is extremely unlikely to me that Holocaust denial could in any way filter out beyond the fringe of the extreme Right, since it is simply an established fact.

We may quibble as to whether there are 6 million Jews that got killed or 6 and a half, but the end result is clear. At least six million Jews were killed through forced labor, disease, and the gas chambers. On top of that, at least four or five million more people of various nationalities and classifications died in the camps as well.

But to deny that this happened at all is so breathtaking a disavowal of the nature of the camps that it strains the mind to wonder how people could believe such a thing.

Further on the left and antisemitism - it is also clear that people on here and those on the left generally oppose the bullying tactics the Israeli government uses and criticizes those actions rather than criticizing Israel on the basis that it is a "fundamentally Jewish" state.

Now, as an atheist, governments founded as theocracies or as democracies but with a strong pro-religious bias give me hives, but my criticism of those is based on the (as I see it) unhealthiness of the absolutist nature of religious dogma when it is shot into politics. Politics is all about being able to broker compromises and take into account the interests of a wide variety of people and/or groups.

So I doubt that many leftists claim that Jews are born murderers or whatever the hell kind of idiotic claims get made about them.

I cannot say the same for the right, and in fact when I was younger - as recently as the early 1990s, in point of fact - I often felt concerns that the right wing of North American politics had an understated anti-Judaic, anti-any-religion-except-Christianity bias.

It is to be recalled that Christianity is an evangelical religion, or at least some of the major sects are, and politicians who have been steeped in this tend to forget that Judaism is fundamentally not evangelical. A simple proof will suffice: You are required to ask a rabbi three times before you are permitted to convert.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 28 February 2003 09:37 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not here though, since given what's become of the thread i rather regret having started it.

swallow, this is a pity. What were you after in terms of discussion on this topic?

I'm not convinced that there isn't an undercurrent of anti-Semitism in the Left, possibly hidden within criticism of Israel or attacks upon Orthodox religions and their treatment of women for example.

I've seen a little taste of it in the anti-circumcision crowd as well.

Lefties tend to be "politically correct" and so often self-censor unless they are in a group whose sympathies they can rely on.

Supposing it's there and is endemic, do you think the Left should change the tone of its criticism of the state of Israel? If so, how?

As I said in a previous post, I don't believe that ideological arguments can sway the committed anti-semite and I agree that Holocaust deniers are anti-historians who are trying to beef up their rhetoric of hatred to sway the ignorant.

What was it about the article that impressed you, swallow?


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 11:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The tone and sad nature of some of these posts takes my breath away. I have been on Babble now for almost 8 months and have never seen it stoop so low. I honestly believed that while some on the left may be using antisemitism in their hatred of Israel, the left in general remained solid. I still beleive that but what is clear, if this is any indication, is that there are more on the left than I cared to believe who have no conception of the Jewish tragedy of the Holocaust and would use antisemitism as a means to attack people like me who are pro-Israel. Orpheus is only the most obvious example.

Holocaust questioning by some, posting of antisemitc material by others and attacking babblers unjustly.

quote:
Mishei, your racism runs pretty deep and shameless.
I repeat, that such baseless attacks are, I thought, against babble policy. I was reemed out for misusing satana's name. But calling me a racist without any justification is OK??

Sad and deplorable


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 11:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei: I. work. part. time. So maybe stop being all "why hasn't this been fixed yet?", okay?
Orpheus: Posting hateful material is a violation of babble policy. Keep it up, and you'll find yourself banned.

Audra, apologies but antisemitism and racist posts anger me to no end. Is it Babble policy to leave Hofmann's racist and hatemongering rants on this thread? I for one find them vile and hate-filled and believe that they should be removed. IMHO are in violation of the Section 319 (2) of the criminal code and Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 February 2003 11:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You got thumped at least twice for "misusing satana's name", while we're at it.

quote:
I honestly believed that while some on the left may be using antisemitism in their hatred of Israel, the left in general remained solid.

If my memory may be trusted, you have, on occasion, questioned my "credentials" as a non-anti-semite without ever actually calling me an anti-semite.

I respectfully submit that your perception of the "solidity" of the left on being not antisemitic is a bit shakier than the "solidity" actually is.

quote:
I still beleive that but what is clear, if this is any indication, is that there are more on the left than I cared to believe who have no conception of the Jewish tragedy of the Holocaust and would use antisemitism as a means to attack people like me who are pro-Israel.

If you are referring to Sisyphus, it is clear that Sisyphus has at least as much "cred" as you do on the subject of the Holocaust, since Sisyphus's relatives, as yours did, went into the camps and not all survived.

Upon re-reading Sisyphus's post, it is clear to me anyhow that Sisyphus was not in any way engaging in Holocaust denial nor was Sisyphus engaging in antisemitism. It is clear that Sisyphus is stating forcefully that the Holocaust of World War 2 is a clear warning that even the most advanced of nations can, under the right (or wrong, as it were) circumstances, fall victim to racism and discriminatory nationalism and search out phantom "enemies" to destroy in the name of national purity.

It is thus clear that Sisyphus was stating that (and I agree here) the Holocaust is a reminder to all of us that any genocide, whether attempted or successful, should be condemned and nipped in the bud.

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Evil One
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3788

posted 28 February 2003 11:49 PM      Profile for The Evil One     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

I feel Dh has now crossed the line into genuine antisemitism. It is beyond creepy and anyone who now supports him must understand they are supporting an antisemite.

Folks, I have been called all kinds of names here and complaints got me nowhere.

IMHO, there are elements within the left that has degenerated into antisemitism. Darkhorse (if he is indeed a "leftie") is a prime example of what I mean.

have been called all kinds of names here from a racist to an idiot I dont recall seeing any admonitions from you or many others. .

DH your post was virulent in its antisemitism. Indeed it could even promote hatred against Jews. I have lodged a complaint with Rabble.

It seems to me that such epithets are not permitted on Babble. Your admonition that I am a racist that defends murdering innocent people is sick, and deserves to be brought to the attention of the moderator.

I have been the only one to have recognized and called Darkhorse's comments exactly what they are...antisemitism.

But calling me a racist without any justification is OK??
Sad and deplorable



From: Tillsonburg | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 28 February 2003 11:55 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Holocaust or as Jews now refer to it as the Shoah was a Jewish tragedy. I in no way wish to diminish the suffering of others during this terrible period in our history but to generalize the Shaoh into a European tragedy minimizes the extent of the impact it had on European Jewry. Two out of every three jews in Europe were mudered by the Nazis. Sad as it is that many others suffered cruel fates no one suffered such grievous loss as did the Jews of Europe. If you were a Jew in occupied Europe duting WW2 you were slated for death. As Elie Wiesel once put it while it is true that all the victims of the nazis were not Jews it is equally true that all JEWS were victims.

I grieve with Sisyphis for all our family who were so brutally put to death as I grieve for other innocence who die as a resilt of war, greed an hubrus. Let it indeed be the clarion call for all humanity.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 28 February 2003 11:57 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't edit other people's posts for content.

Closing this, because it is too long.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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