babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Arabs are like mice

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Arabs are like mice
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 18 February 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not my title, that's Robert Fisk, darling of the Independent.


quote:
Could anything be more pathetic than the Arab demonstration against war? A million Britons marched in London, more than half a million Spaniards in Madrid; 200,000 in Paris and New York. And Cairo? Well, just 600 Egyptians turned up in their capital to protest at America's forthcoming invasion of brotherly Iraq – surrounded by 3,000 security police. By way of contrast – brave contrast – 2,000 Israelis protested in Tel Aviv against the war.

quote:
For in Arab capital cities, there is a special problem. Repeatedly, Arab opposition to war is trammelled up with Arab support for the Iraqi dictator.

In Cairo two weeks ago, pictures of the Iraqi leader detracted from anti-war protests. In Beirut on Saturday, men who had fought each other in Lebanon's 15-year civil war came together to oppose America's invasion of Iraq, but were then demeaned by far greater numbers of Lebanese who supported Saddam Hussein and carried pictures of the wretched man to prove it.


I know I'll be called a troll for posting any contrary opinions. You can't get by on this board unless you agree with the delusional few who attempt to shout down the rational many.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 February 2003 10:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No; you're a troll for setting us up as "the delusional few" and yourself as one of the "rational many".

You remind me of that old fairy tale about the girl who, every time she opened her mouth, a toad popped out.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 18 February 2003 10:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can't get by on this board unless you agree with the delusional few who attempt to shout down the rational many.

One of your delusions is being many?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1527

posted 18 February 2003 10:55 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I recently saw video of a young Iraqi man in a crowd asked why there were no similar protests in the Arab states. He said (roughly), that in the West the government had to listen to the people, but in the Arab World, government was imposed upon him. He walked away angry, saying that he was now ‘in trouble’.

I don’t understand Fisk’s gripe. Even he could figure this out.


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 18 February 2003 11:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You should actually read the article.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 18 February 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One of your delusions is being many?

Just as one of yours is being 'rational'.

When I use the epithet 'delusional', I refer to the propensity of certain posters for taking certain sources as gospel, in the face of many other legitimate ones that contradict their left-wing ravings. I refer to their insistence that we must allow unlimited and unending suffering and death among certain populaces, in order to avoid a short-term war that would end their oppression in short order. I refer to the "Peace in our time" proponents, who would not have lifted a finger to save 6 million Jews in WWII, but instead would have insisted that we give diplomacy a chance.

Whatever happens, it looks like it'll shake down in the next few weeks. We can only hope that nobody's worst fears are realized.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 18 February 2003 11:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I fear you are racist swine mandrake. And I believe you are one of those who would never have lifted a finger to fight Nazism. You would have left that to those on the left who recognized the horror of the regime long before a single Jew had to die. And for us Arab lives are just as valuable as Jewsih lives. I know that is a hard pill for you to swallow but in your empty, hate filled mind, any independent thought is a miracle.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 19 February 2003 12:57 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pseudofelinoids Anonymous notes that Arabs, far from being mice, are larger than us entities and therefore deserve the appellation "humans without rocking chairs".
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2956

posted 19 February 2003 02:39 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You present us with a non-sequitor, Mandrake. It does not follow that a war in Iraq will emancipate the Iraqi people.

Please present the evidence that makes you believe this might be so.


quote:
I refer to the "Peace in our time" proponents, who would not have lifted a finger to save 6 million Jews in WWII, but instead would have insisted that we give diplomacy a chance.

And how did the "Peace in Our Time" proponents know about the hollocaust before the Nazi's even concieved of it themselves?

Oh, I'm objecting to this thread title also. I don't-- and won't-- complain to the moderators, but I will leave it to you to deciede about what it says about you who use the hollocaust for debating points on one hand, but dehumanize a group of people on another.

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: TommyPaineatWork ]


From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 19 February 2003 03:28 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After reading the article I don't understand the title of the thread. I'm not sure if the author is critisizing Arab leaders or Arab people or both.

Arab leaders would never encourage the idea of removing one of their collegues. If the US can talk about removing Arafat and Saddaam, they can expect they'll start talking about leaders in the Gulf, Syria, or Jordan next.

There are many naive Arabs who like in the previous Gulf war support Saddaam. They see, or hope to see an Arab standing up against colonialist powers. But the majority of people who know something about history or what it's like to live in the middle-east would very much like to get rid of Saddaam and all current Arab leaders. Saying this out loud would get them beaten up and thrown into prison for a long time. Despite these threats many people still try to talk, we just don't hear about them.

And since any gathering of people in the middle-east is illegal without official government approval, supervision, and strict regulation. No one should expect demonstrations in that region as there are in other parts of the world.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Man With No Name
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3771

posted 19 February 2003 08:31 AM      Profile for Man With No Name     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read the article. This is news? 'Arab States Are Backwards Little Pissholes' ranks right up there with 'water is wet' and 'grass is green'.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3674

posted 19 February 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
just 600 Egyptians turned up in their capital to protest at America's forthcoming invasion of brotherly Iraq – surrounded by 3,000 security police.

it's an odd article. fisk was on the ball with a dispatch in the last week on the gulf between anti and pro war factions in the USA,

here, fisk is asking and answering his own question with regards to egypt,

when you have an authoritiarian state deploy 3000 police to a demo, (imagine that many on hand in toronto), well, they don't want public dissent, public dissent means no more US foreign aid and military sales gravy train for their leaders.

that's got nothing to do with grassroots arabs being "mice", why imply that people throughout the middle east are cowardly?

as for you, man with no name, grow up and get a vocabulary, we don't need language like "Backwards Little Pissholes" on babble.


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 19 February 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fisk let me down with this one.

I think if I lived in a repressive Arab state where making oneself stand out to the authorities is very risky at the best of times, I would choose very carefully the occasions upon which I was going to do so.

Does anyone really think Bush and his junta are going to be deterred by a few million pinko, Saddam-lovin' hippie, ivory-tower, pseudo-intellectual throwbacks to the heady era of the "Flower Children"?

Especially since most of them were irrelevant, "Old-Europe" pantywaists who are only enjoying freedom because the brave fighting men of the good old US of A, stared the Furher down until he blinked. While they were cowering in the rubble of their bombed out cities, America was single-handedly showing Hirohito that the wrath of the usually-benign Sleeping Giant was awful and terrible to behold when freedom was at stake.

So, now Fisk thinks that protests of a few brown folks in the "Axis of Evil" or the "Axis of Pretty Evil" or in the" Axis of What the Hell, You're Next Anyway" are going to have any effect whatsoever ?

C'mon Robert.

By the way, did you see a neurologist after that dust-up near Quetta?


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I fear you are racist swine mandrake. And I believe you are one of those who would never have lifted a finger to fight Nazism.

I'm a Jew, Wingnutcase, and some of my relatives died in the Holocaust. Had I been old enough, I would have attempted to go to their rescue, unlike your kind (or unkind, as the case happens to be). People like you sit on their overstuffed duffs, enjoying their comfortable lives, and reciting the mantra, "Don't worry, be happy", while thousands and millions of people suffer under the thumb of mad dictators. "Leave them alone, and it'll all sort itself out in a generation or two" is a common refrain on this board. Well, you have to get off your asses and take action (which doesn't include going out into the streets, reciting "Peace in our time."). I'd go out marching in favour of putting an end to Saddam's regime, but you lefties would just accuse me of being 'a racist swine'.

If it were left to people like you, there wouldn't be any Jews left in the world, and probably not any Somalis, Hutus, Tsutsis, Tibetans, Sri Lankans, and a host of other endangered peoples. People like you make me sick. You're all talk and no action. You're willing to sacrifice untold numbers of innocent, oppressed people, just so you can be perceived as 'peaceful', whatever the hell that means these days.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Man With No Name
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3771

posted 19 February 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for Man With No Name     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoops for the language! I saw the F-bomb dropped elsewhere...oh well...

Arabs cowardly? I don't think so, in terms of staging a coup or whatever. The divisions and conflicts that lay within individual Arab societies are huge. Failure to unite against a common enemy has always been the Arab worlds problem.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 19 February 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Calling a group of people "backward" is not okay Man With No Name. I got lots of complaints about this. Watch yourself, in the future.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 12:01 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You present us with a non-sequitor, Mandrake. It does not follow that a war in Iraq will emancipate the Iraqi people.
Please present the evidence that makes you believe this might be so.

Please present evidence that makes you believe that it might not be so.

quote:

And how did the "Peace in Our Time" proponents know about the hollocaust before the Nazi's even concieved of it themselves?


That's just so moronic and ignorant that it deserves only a minimal response. If the "Peace in our time"-ers had anything but their own self-interest in mind (i.e. avoiding a just war), they would have tried to stop the Nazis early on, instead of taking the course of appeasement, as many are doing today. The oppression of the Jews was well known before the war even began, but that didn't even figure in to the equation of what would keep the rest of the world from having to actually help oppressed peoples, instead of turning a blind eye to their plight, as many are doing now.

We get from the lefties the feeble excuse that 'millions will die' if there is a war. With the overwhelming superiority of the Allied forces, the war will be quickly over, and most of the dead will be the Iraqi military. Granted, there will likely be hundreds of civilian casualties, but are those the same civilians that I see marching in the streets, waving guns, and vowing to fight 'to the last drop of blood'?

quote:
Oh, I'm objecting to this thread title also.

Object away. It's not my title; it's Fiskes. If you had a modicum of literacy skills, you would have seen that when you read the article (you did read the article, didn't you?).


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 February 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, you are simply a racist, fanatic. You can play on your Judaism all you want but past wrongs to a people, not you, a people, is no excuse for your blind hatred toward Arabs.

Oh, so in the Second World war you would have "attempted" to go. Coward. I would have went. And I am not Jewish. I wuold have went because it was the right thing to do. It was Canadian leftists who went to fight, as volunteers, against fascism in Spain. The right wing you suckle up to was happy to let fascism rule in Europe and hopefully here too.

The mad dictators you refer to are mostly in place because of, not in spite of, the murderous and failed policies you are so happy to support. But what do you care? The people being oppressed, repressed, tortured, murdered are Arabs. Just like the Palestinians you are so pleased to see suffering.

If it were up to people like me there would be no war. It is the snivelling cowards hiding behind their TV sets and crying for more innocent blood, like yourself, who are truly complicit in genocide and bloodshed throughout this world.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
when you have an authoritiarian state deploy 3000 police to a demo, (imagine that many on hand in toronto), well, they don't want public dissent, public dissent means no more US foreign aid and military sales gravy train for their leaders.

Wasn't there a demonstration in Toronto just last year, where the police outnumbered the demonstrators two or three to one? I think it was either an anti-globalization demo or one in support of the poor.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 19 February 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hate to pee on your parade, mandrake (or at least your runaway hyperbole), but how exactly is it possible to equate Saddam Hussein with Hitler? I've seen enough posters scolded by certain nameless parties for throwing out Nazi/Hitler comparisons to wonder if it's one of those things that can be dusted off whenever it suits your own purposes, but woe to those who would use it against you. To create any comparisons between the two despots demonstrates either an ignorance of history or your willingness to stoop to whatever outlandish claim you need to make a point.

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Man With No Name
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3771

posted 19 February 2003 12:38 PM      Profile for Man With No Name     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
audra:

With all respect, I made reference to Arab states i.e. their governments, not the people. Most of the people are probably like you and I and share common goals and aspirations.

The fact is, the people, especially the women, are severely oppressed in many of these countries. Speculation on why protests aren't more prevalent can be summed by government oppression. Government oppression is a bad thing.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3134

posted 19 February 2003 12:51 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If the US can talk about removing Arafat and Saddaam, they can expect they'll start talking
about leaders in the Gulf, Syria, or Jordan next.

I have to agree with this........ in fact, that whole you're with us or against us speach seemed to imply, after I'm [referring to Bush] done with Afganistan and Saddam, there are a few other places I plan to trample over. Didn't it?


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 19 February 2003 01:00 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As far as Bush is concerned, the more the merrier. He is incapable of functioning as a peace time president. He knows it and so does everyone else in his little cabal. So, what better way to distract the masses and keep the opposition cowed than by picking fights with every piss-pot, dirt-poor nation on the globe? It's a tried and true tactic, one that will be effective for Dubya as long as he continues to spew war on terror slogans. Or until the opposition grows some balls.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can play on your Judaism all you want but past wrongs to a people, not you, a people, is no excuse for your blind hatred toward Arabs.

Where do you see evidence that I have a 'blind hatred' for Arabs? If this were so, then why would I be calling for freeing those who are being oppressed by dictators and tyrants? Why would I care? As for 'playing on my Judaism', I would expect aa phrase like that to come from a virulent anti-Semite! Just because I, as a Jew, feel sadness and anger over the Holocaust, and resentment because people like you refused to acknowledge what was happening in Germany in the 1930s, doesn't mean that I'm using my heritage to bash other groups. I'll leave that to you and your ilk.

quote:
Oh, so in the Second World war you would have "attempted" to go. Coward. I would have went. And I am not Jewish. I wuold have went because it was the right thing to do.

And why, then, is it not the 'right thing to do' today, in Iraq. You wouldn't raise so much as a finger to save oppressed peoples.

quote:
It was Canadian leftists who went to fight, as volunteers, against fascism in Spain. The right wing you suckle up to was happy to let fascism rule in Europe and hopefully here too.

How, then, do you explain that I'm trying to get people to actually take action, as opposed to appeasing dictatorships? Are you even basically literate? Are you comprehensionally challenged?

quote:
The mad dictators you refer to are mostly in place because of, not in spite of, the murderous and failed policies you are so happy to support. But what do you care? The people being oppressed, repressed, tortured, murdered are Arabs. Just like the Palestinians you are so pleased to see suffering.

And Arabs are the very people I'm trying to defend and liberate, unlike you, who would be content to see them under the thumb of the dictator in perpetuity. No, I'm not pleased to see Palestinians suffering. I would prefer that they sit down with their Israeli counterparts (as they are beginning to do) and negotiate a mutually satisfactory and beneficial peace. Unlike you, I don't forsee a future where the Palestinians will achieve all of their objectives. The real world just doesn't work that way. Their corrupt and incompetent leadership has let them down, and the terrorists who live among them thrive on and perpetuate their misery.

Best to characterize this part of your rant as idiotic, at the risk of offending idiots, who might object to having you lumped into their category.

quote:
If it were up to people like me there would be no war. It is the snivelling cowards hiding behind their TV sets and crying for more innocent blood, like yourself, who are truly complicit in genocide and bloodshed throughout this world.

If it were up to people like you, there would be no peace. Instead there would be unending conflict and ceaseless oppression of peoples who you don't deem worthy of anyone's efforts to liberate. It was people like you who allowed the genocide in Rwanda, in Tibet, in Nazi Germany. You are truly a craven coward, hiding behind mealy-mouthed platitudes and weasel words.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 19 February 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is not about International Peace March Reports. I'll move this, I guess, to "the Middle East" forum.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To create any comparisons between the two despots demonstrates either an ignorance of history or your willingness to stoop to whatever outlandish claim you need to make a point.

Hitler had territorial ambitions, as does Saddam. Hitler oppressed his own people, as does Saddam. Hitler massacred minorities, as does Saddam. Is it becoming clear to you, or are you a denier of history? The two differ only in scale, not in character. Saddam needs only opportunity, which the leftists are only too happy to provide him with.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 February 2003 02:24 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You would compare a tinpot dictator to the man who brought us the holocaust? You should be ashamed. But then you know no shame.

You will never be able to wash the blood from your hands. But then you probably wouldn't want to. You say, laughably, you want Arabs to live in freedom while making a mockery of their deaths, wishing for war, and praising the power that places them under the thumbs of repressive regimes.

You are a hypocrite. A filthy hypocrite, mandrake.

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 February 2003 02:30 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was people like you who allowed the genocide in Rwanda, in Tibet, in Nazi Germany. You are truly a craven coward, hiding behind mealy-mouthed platitudes and weasel words.

Actually it was people like you, right wing fascists who couldn't give a shit about anyone but themselves. I am not surprised you are familiar with the word weasel. But even that is too respectful a word for turds such as yourself. Cowardly, smelly, turds. Flushed into the slime of human waste where you belong.

-- Sorry everyone. I will not continue this. It is just that immoral war mongers pretending to care about anything but there own miserable self-interest really piss me off. And then when their comments are tinged with the poison of racism, well, ...

Again I apologize. The slimy turd can continue.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 19 February 2003 02:38 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hitler had territorial ambitions, as does Bush. Hitler oppressed his own people, as does Bush. Hitler massacred minorities, as does Bush.

From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 19 February 2003 02:39 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hitler had territorial ambitions, as does Saddam. Hitler oppressed his own people, as does Saddam. Hitler massacred minorities, as does Saddam. Is it becoming clear to you, or are you a denier of history? The two differ only in scale, not in character. Saddam needs only opportunity, which the leftists are only too happy to provide him with.

Puh-fucking-leeze! I would have thought someone with a personal connection to the Holocaust would be a little more cautious about throwing Hitler comparisons about, but your requirements are a little thin. Hell, the case could be made, using your logic, that Ariel Sharon is just like Hitler.

Oh and I'm dying to know just what the "left" is doing that is allowing Saddam hussein to become Hhistory's next great monster. Your constant repetition of this point does not make it true. What it does accomplish is it makes you look foolish.

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 February 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ye gods. I've only just finished reading mandrake's charges against Wingy. Ye gods.

quote:
people like you refused to acknowledge what was happening in Germany in the 1930s

mandrake, it was first of all people like Wallis Simpson and Lady Eaton who "refused to acknowledge" what was going on in Germany in the 1930s. Or people like Mackenzie King. Or ... you take your pick of the elites. Ordinary citizens hardly had a choice.

Except some of them did, mandrake, and they took it. The Mac-Paps didn't go to Spain bearing any white man's burden, mandrake. They didn't go to impose any self-serving government of their own.

They went to defend a legitimate government against a fascist military insurgency, in the context of a time of the rise of fascist militarism.

mandrake, I am willing to believe that you are in pain. And I think that your personal pain has maddened you; seriously, I do.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 19 February 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but how exactly is it possible to equate Saddam Hussein with Hitler?

If you need help in comparing people you don't like to Nazis, may I suggest the following old threads?:

Why Bush is still a Nazi

Why Mark Steyn is a Nazi


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 19 February 2003 02:56 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or this one:

Let's Play Spot the Nazi


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 05:54 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You will never be able to wash the blood from your hands. But then you probably wouldn't want to. You say, laughably, you want Arabs to live in freedom while making a mockery of their deaths, wishing for war, and praising the power that places them under the thumbs of repressive regimes.

You are a hypocrite. A filthy hypocrite, mandrake.


Could you be more delusional? A few dozen visits with a good shrink would not go amiss for you. You have constantly put words in my mouth and deliberately misinterpreted not only my meaning, but the events of history. You have even less credibility than Jean Chretien's 'ethics commissioner'. Your degree of logic and rationality do not come up to the minimum standards for you to qualify as a doorstop.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 06:03 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh and I'm dying to know just what the "left" is doing that is allowing Saddam hussein to become Hhistory's next great monster. Your constant repetition of this point does not make it true. What it does accomplish is it makes you look foolish.

Read some of the posts by Moredreads, and especially by Wingnut. One can but try to image what's going on in their delusional little minds, where they (especially Wingnutcase) take ones words and reverse them for their own perverted and irrational causes.

In any case, if it comforts you to think that Saddam is not one of the great monsters of history, so be it. I can't help it if you choose to ignore history.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 06:06 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually it was people like you, right wing fascists who couldn't give a shit about anyone but themselves. I am not surprised you are familiar with the word weasel. But even that is too respectful a word for turds such as yourself. Cowardly, smelly, turds. Flushed into the slime of human waste where you belong.

See what I mean, Black_Dog? Res ipsa loquitor!


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
-- Sorry everyone. I will not continue this. It is just that immoral war mongers pretending to care about anything but there own miserable self-interest really piss me off. And then when their comments are tinged with the poison of racism, well, ...

Again I apologize. The slimy turd can continue.


Glory, glory, hallelujah. and His Truth goes marching on.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
mandrake, it was first of all people like Wallis Simpson and Lady Eaton who "refused to acknowledge" what was going on in Germany in the 1930s. Or people like Mackenzie King. Or ... you take your pick of the elites. Ordinary citizens hardly had a choice.

So you're saying that ordinary citizens have no say in what issues are brought forth for public debate, and no control over the public agenda? Sorry, man, but that's pure bullshit. If it were true, then why did 20 million people bother leaving their houses last weekend?

quote:
mandrake, I am willing to believe that you are in pain. And I think that your personal pain has maddened you; seriously, I do.

I'm not the least bit 'maddened'. I just feel that somebody should be advocating for the innocents, not supporting the idea of leaving them in permanent bonded servitude to mad dictators, just because they don't have the balls to take action.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 February 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm not the least bit 'maddened'. I just feel that somebody should be advocating for the innocents, not supporting the idea of leaving them in permanent bonded servitude to mad dictators, just because they don't have the balls to take action.

Actually, you incomprhensible idiot, being a woman she doesn't have balls.

The innocents are the ones you want to drop bembs on. The dictators are in power because of people like Cheney and Rumsfeld who could care less when Saddam gassed the Kurds in the first place. Of course, you would know that if you took your empty head out of your ass to shake it for a second.

You are so fucking sick there are no words to describe it.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 19 February 2003 07:24 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wait, isn't Qaddafi the greatest monster in history? Oh no wait it's Noriega. No Saddam. No Milosevic. No Osama. No it's Hussein again. When are you shills for the international arms industry going to make up your frickin' minds?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, you incomprhensible idiot, being a woman she doesn't have balls.

Actually, you comprehensionally challenged jackass, 'they' is a gender neutral plural collective pronoun. Did you actually get beyond grade 3.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 19 February 2003 09:20 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The innocents are the ones you want to drop bembs on.

Where did I post that I wanted to drop bombs on any innocents? I specifically posted that the Iraqi military were the ones who deserved bombing.

quote:
The dictators are in power because of people like Cheney and Rumsfeld who could care less when Saddam gassed the Kurds in the first place.

Talk about contorted and irrational reasoning. What else can one expect from the mentally ill?

quote:
Of course, you would know that if you took your empty head out of your ass to shake it for a second.

You are so fucking sick there are no words to describe it.


I wonder if Wingnutcase is capable of reasonable and rational and civil discourse. There's even less evidence of that than there is of Saddam's WMD.


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Subotai
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3435

posted 19 February 2003 09:23 PM      Profile for Subotai     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry if this post is off-topic. But I just have to say something here.

I don't understand this.

It's obvious several of you devote a great deal of time to arguing on this messageboard. Which would be great if those arguments were constructive - i.e. both sides of the debate tempered and refined their perspectives by taking into consideration the points raised by the opposition.

But at this point I think it's clear to everyone involved that neither side is budging the other one iota. This thread - perhaps this entire debate - has left the realm of reasonable discourse and degenerated into the exchange of personal attacks.

Accusations of bigotry, cowardice, unstable mental health and the like are counter-productive to both sides. They are also groundless, as what we post on an internet messageboard is not an adequate representation of who we are as people. What we post is a far cry from the totality of our individual characters, histories and identities. We can make judgements about what others have written - but we know next to nothing about who they really are.

To the pro-war posters - if you dislike the tenor of this web-site and the majority of the people who frequent this messageboard, why do you continue to post here? What satisfaction does it give you? What purpose does it serve? I have a strong antipathy towards the hard right. But I'm not going to waste my time getting into grudge matches on hard right messageboards. I dislike golf, too. So why would I want to frequent a golf web-site?

To the anti-war posters - surely our own time could be devoted to better things than internet squabbling. It should be apparent to all by now that the pro-war posters here will not be dissuaded no matter what arguments are presented to them. The more energy we expend on locking horns with anonymous online ciphers, the less energy we have to accomplish our real goals. We should be trying to reach the people around us: our friends, our families, our colleagues - people we deal with every day. What is to be gained in convincing cyber-entities? What is to be gained in engaging in bitter personal battles with them?


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1527

posted 19 February 2003 10:24 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Subotai: I sympathize with your general gist. I don’t understand why some are allowed to constantly violate policy. But to answer one of your queries, re: Golf. I might go to a golf site in an effort to figure out why so many people love golf. I wouldn’t necessarily condemn golf lovers for their passion but I might challenge them by pointing out that cricket is…or football is…or chess is…[better], for whatever reason. In other words, I’d be testing my own beliefs as an academic exercise and trying to understand people that hold a different view. To keep me honest and true. (Check that: To keep me from being a complete moron). Why else debate? That’s the fun of it eh?

I think you underestimate the power of argument as to ‘dissuading’ minds. People are reluctant to fess up, but they can be swayed. I have been many times. (But I’ll never admit it!)


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 February 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are of course correct, subtotai.
But I cannot persuade mandrake. He is filled with bloodlust. He thinks he can deny this if he is insulting. He can't help being stupid, I don't think. But he says he believes war will help the innocents. He says he doesn't want the innocents to die and he cheers war. In the meantime, it is predicted the civilian dead will be ar leats 10,000 with half of them children. He is either lying to everyone or himself.

SSH, favors a war. And as much as I disagree with him I have never been left with the impression that he relishes war, that he savors it, that he lusts for it.

mandrakle, on the other hand, I seriously believe is aroused by the thought of it.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2956

posted 20 February 2003 02:10 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NAW.

Fun as it may be, I'm not starting at the bottom of the heap.

[ 20 February 2003: Message edited by: TommyPaineatWork ]


From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3508

posted 20 February 2003 02:30 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Getting back to Fisk, it's a fine article. And his critique is pretty accurate. The Arabs are like mice - as in the expression - 'quiet as mice.' He rails against the rulers who won't allow protests on an issue that they all agree on. Where is their solidarity in this crucial time?
From: in transit | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 20 February 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You are of course correct, subtotai.
But I cannot persuade mandrake. He is filled with bloodlust. He thinks he can deny this if he is insulting. He can't help being stupid, I don't think. But he says he believes war will help the innocents. He says he doesn't want the innocents to die and he cheers war. In the meantime, it is predicted the civilian dead will be ar leats 10,000 with half of them children. He is either lying to everyone or himself.

There's no point in attempting to reason with Wingnutcase. He interprets things in his own bizzare way, almost invariably inaccurately. For example, "He is filled with bloodlust." My posts make it clear to anyone with minimal intelligence that I am in favour of saving lives. I would prefer to avoid war altogether, but if the lefties insist on drawing out the suffering of ordinary Iraqis, and are prepared to tolerate the oppressive policies of Saddam Hussein, then I see no alternative. Obviously, Saddam is unmoved by diplomacy, (and is encouraged by the perceived support from the West) but the anti-war types are prepared to negotiate until he dies of old age.

Wingnut's puerile little brain is incapable of doing the math; a few hundred dead now, in exchange for tens of thousands of dead over the long term (we're never given the source of the lefties' hallucinatory statistics). It would be refreshing if Wingy would put forward factual and verifiable information, but he seems incapable of doing such. The one thing I can agree with him on is in the middle of his post:......"I don't think"


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 February 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I forgot to mention mandrake is insane. This is evident in his insistence that he wants to end suffering by dropping bombs on people. Poor guy. You really have to pity him.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 February 2003 11:39 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
a few hundred dead now

Source?

Not that I've got links to hand, but I've read many American admin estimates, and boy, they are many times that.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 20 February 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
600 cruise misiles in 48 hours to produce 200 casualties? Doesn't sound very Shock and Awe, does it?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 20 February 2003 12:52 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It sounds more like Shuck and Jive.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3508

posted 20 February 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
we're never given the source of the lefties' hallucinatory statistics
Why are you here, Mandrake? This is a left-wing discussion board. If you've looked at the Rabble site there are no pro-war editorials. You only serve to irritate with your ludicrous misquotings and outlandish spin. What are you doing here? You make as much sense as a meat-eater in a vegetarian chat room.

From: in transit | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322

posted 20 February 2003 03:05 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandrake, maybe this site is more your style.

There you can slavishly agree with like-minds such as Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 20 February 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why are you here, Mandrake? This is a left-wing discussion board.

Wow, didn't know that the left wing wasn't allowed to express opinions different from the flock. Where can I go to take an "are you left wing enough for babble" test.

This site calls itself "News for the Rest of Us", not, "Die-hard Lefties Only"


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 February 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This site calls itself "News for the Rest of Us",

You're one of us sheep? I feel so snuggly and warm.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3127

posted 20 February 2003 03:22 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why are you here, Mandrake? This is a left-wing discussion board.

And the left hates contrary opinions and opposition, because they're incapable of rational debate and of positing intelligent arguments. Just keep repeating the same old slogans and anti-war epithets to each other, and everything will work out fine in the end. The reason the left has not become more popular in this country is that the majority of people see the delusional and unrealistic nature of the leftist philosophy. There's a lot to like in left-wing idealism, but you have to live in the real world. While I am very much in favour of progressive humanism (shut up Wingnutcase. You post like a five year old), I am pragmatic and I can also see the reality of the world situation.

It would be ideal if military pressure could force Saddam to go into exile, but he, too, is a realist, and knows that there is no place on Earth where he will be safe. His only hope lies in hiding behind the innocent dupes that he has oppressed for so long. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands, even millions of them. It won't come to that.

The U.S. will soften up the Iraqi troops in the desert with a sustained bombing campaign, just as in the first Gulf War. Infrastructure outside the cities (power plants, roads, military installations) will be targetted. Just before the ground troops go in, EMP and jamming technology will be employed to disrupt Iraqi communications, and troops and artillary will be parachuted in behind enemy lines. The ground war will be very short, with a minimum of casualties, even to the military on both sides. Once the Iraqi military is neutralized, Baghdad will be surrounded, and those who wish to leave will be permitted to do so. Those who wish to stay and fight for Saddam will be the authors of their own misfortune. Does that sound at all realistic? Does it satisfy those who are speculating about tens of thousands of civilian casualties. Of course it doesn't! Lefties love nothing better than to bash America and it's corporate-loving, people-hating agenda, and to speculate on worst-case scenarios that will support their delusions.

So you see, if people like me stayed out of this site, you guys would be left with nothing to do all day but to jerk each other off!


From: erehwon | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2119

posted 20 February 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Better check your tempature Wingy...could be a fever

Besides, I like mandrake. You think he's wrong, then engage him, talk to him, try to change his mind. Don't shut him out. His behaviour is no worse than many on this board and you just know Audra is waiting with her finger on the trigger, waiting for him to slip up.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 February 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon, mandrake, admit it. You wrote that last sentence because you were jerking off while you wrote that post. Weren't you? You can admit it. We know it anyway.

I told you he gets aroused with the thought of drop tens of thousands of tons of bombs on people.

Engage him, sheep? He is jerking off thinking about it!

[ 20 February 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 20 February 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut, Mandrake, you're both in the bad-babbler-box until further notice. This is ridiculous.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
LionKeeper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3728

posted 20 February 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for LionKeeper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So this is a porn site all of a sudden... Hilarious. Continue the discussion on a cool headed level. No pun intended!
From: The Lion's Den | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 February 2003 06:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
audra, does this mean that you have banned WingNut from babble?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 20 February 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shit. audra has said it a million times. Do not feed the trolls. shit.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 February 2003 06:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I should have said it a few more times: "moral equivalency" is an idiot liberal notion, and if that's what's going on here, I am on strike.

For pity's sake. Has anyone actually bothered to read, thread by thread, what has been going on for the last two days???

What is this? Disneyland???



From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 20 February 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000119

I started this thread to discuss an aspect of these Moral Equivalency accusations.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 20 February 2003 11:55 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bombs make my brain hurt.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca