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Author Topic: Talking to Your Friends and Family About War in Iraq
audra trower williams
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posted 11 February 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
a good resource for those arguements
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 11 February 2003 07:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't even bother anymore. And when it gets brought up at family dinners, I do the Zen thing and ponder the sound of one hand clapping until the conversation passes.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 11 February 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've always been horrified by most of my family with respect to politics. I stopped arguing long ago, until the New York crew came up for a wedding last October. I asked them how NY is dealing with 9-11 now that a year had passed.

The shit that came out of their mouths chilled me to the bone.

'The only good muslim is a dead muslim'

'They should bomb Saudi Arabia until there isn't a soul left alive'

... were a few choice comments...

My uncle Jim and auntie Sue whom I loved so much, I now count among the most vile and ignorant people I have ever had the misfortune to know.


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 12 February 2003 10:56 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What would you say Angela, when you hear people in Middle Eastern countries saying the same thing about America and Americans? That they are vile and despicable people? No doubt that the words themselves are vile and despicable, but we're told again and again that we need to understand the roots of their rage. It's pretty easy to understand the roots of a New Yorker's rage against Arabs.

The thoughts that they are expressing are vile, but if you're willing to simply write them off as vile and despicable people because of that, well, that may be your loss, and theirs too. I've heard the same things many many times from New Yorkers, especially in the days following 9/11. I understand where the sentiment is coming from, I don't agree with it, I let them know I don't agree with it, but I don't judge them for it. I'd rather help them see the light.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 12 February 2003 01:39 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What would you say Angela, when you hear people in Middle Eastern countries saying the same thing about America and Americans?

I'd say that they have every reason to believe what they do, if they have time to think about such things between bombs dropping on their heads and their children dying in their arms for the past 12 years.

In short sheep, I would say that they were right.


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 12 February 2003 01:51 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the woman I know who's husband was incinerated in the world trade center, who now hates Arabs and Muslims because of it, is wrong?

It's hard to believe that everyone in the middle east who has a hate on for America has been ducking bombs or having their children die in their arms. That's a lot of bombs and a lot of children.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 12 February 2003 02:20 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The shit that came out of their mouths chilled me to the bone.

'The only good muslim is a dead muslim'

'They should bomb Saudi Arabia until there isn't a soul left alive'

... were a few choice comments...


I know that it's difficult to confront people when they say something like this. It hits like a hammer, especially if it's someone you know. But you really do need to confront them if you want to respect them again (and have them understand your views). There are real reasons for your aunt and uncle to feel the way they do, no matter how misguided. It will initially lead to shouting matches, more than likely, but after you understand the source of their bigotry, and can talk about it, and they understand your reasons for opposing the war, you'll all get along better. You may not agree, but you won't hate each other.

/end Dr. Phil session


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 12 February 2003 02:25 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If they have a 'hate on' for Americans it's because a million children have died as a result of the sanctions imposed on them for the past 12 years.

It's because of the fact that these sanctions have prevented them from being able to repair water treatment facilities and hospitals that have been bombed as a result of US military 'exercises' (I like that... exercises... makes it sound like a healthy lifestyle choice)

The US government is directly responsible for the horrors that have been inflicted upon these people.

Alternatively, a small group of terrorists having nothing to do with any specific government or with Iraq are responsible for bringing down the towers in NY.

Does this information register with the now Muslim hating residents of the US? It certainly doesn't with my family.

They demand their pound of flesh. Maybe when they figure out who their enemy is they will take appropriate action, until then the gruesome display of blind, misguided hate towards innocent parties will be held in contempt by those who know better than to believe that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 12 February 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is an old saying: "You can pick your friends but you can't pick your relatives."

To which I say: "But you can pick where and with whom you spend your time."

I believe I have a full-time job working on my own prejudices, biases, and other shortcomings.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 12 February 2003 02:34 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The United States has never, to my knowledge, dropped any bombs on civilians in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, or Dubai. So why do so many people in these countries hate the US?

I said the Middle East Angela, not Iraq specifically.

There's no shortage of perfectly valid reasons to hate any nationality, religion or culture. Hate Christians? There's hundreds of years of reasons to support your position. Hate muslims? Don't need to look very far to find "evidence" to back it up. Hate Americans? Come to babble! Every other day someone posts a link to a list of atrocities that will back you right up.

ah well, i'll get off my soapbox now.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
rubble
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posted 12 February 2003 02:38 PM      Profile for rubble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But the woman I know who's husband was incinerated in the world trade center, who now hates Arabs and Muslims because of it, is wrong?
It's hard to believe that everyone in the middle east who has a hate on for America has been ducking bombs or having their children die in their arms. That's a lot of bombs and a lot of children.

How does half a million dead Iraqi children sound to you ??? This is a direct result of medical sactions, you cold hearted freak !!


From: Earth | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 12 February 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What? A half million? You've convinced me rubble! Death to America!

...and just to make sure. You're upset because I don't hate America enough? Not enough hate in me for you? Keep spreading the hatred rubble. Very progressive of you.

[ 12 February 2003: Message edited by: sheep ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
rubble
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posted 12 February 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for rubble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not talking about dollars, sheep. I'm talking children!
From: Earth | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 12 February 2003 02:53 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look, I'm not saying that one kind of blind hatred is better than another. I'm saying that the US manufactures enemies to suit their economic interests, they just make it up as they go along and feed the people bullshit who in turn eat it up and regurgitate it back to whoever wants to listen.

People in Japan, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Yugoslavia etc. KNOW who is responsible for what has happened to them, their hatred would be justified. The US has no such certainty about their enemies, which surprisingly has no effect on their desire to kill them.


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wankity
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posted 12 February 2003 03:09 PM      Profile for Wankity        Edit/Delete Post
So let me get this straight Ang....
An American who says "let's kill all Muslims", (the vast majority of whom are innocent of any past attrocity) = evil, racist, despicable.

A muslim who says "let's kill all Americans" (the vast majority are totally innocent of any past attrocity) ....well, we can rationalize that.

Good Grief.


From: Saskabush | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 12 February 2003 03:19 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps we need a new term: I propose "noble hatred". Just as base, just as destructive, just as counterproductive as "regular, BAD hate", but somehow, er... justifiable.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 12 February 2003 03:21 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What wrong with good old-fashioned "righteous wrath" or "burning zeal"?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 12 February 2003 03:39 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
well, everything sounds bad when you use that tone.

Americans are told to hate, and go along without question in order to improve their economy and maintain the status quo.

Muslims get bombs dropped on them and watch their kids die and think, ya I hate the fucking US.

see how that's different?


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 12 February 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is a direct result of medical sactions, you cold hearted freak !!

It is fun to type things like this, but not helpful. Please refrain from name calling, rubble.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 12 February 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A muslim who says "let's kill all Americans" (the vast majority are totally innocent of any past attrocity) ....well, we can rationalize that.

The point your making is true but any democracy can be blamed for their leaders actions. No matter how GWB got in, to a poverty stricken nation that means nothing , we shout democracy and then blame our elected leaders whom we are supposed to hold accountable to us. Democratic leaders are a nations voice. Or that's how it's supposed to be, and if it isn't aren't we to blame for letting that right slip away?

People who live under the rule of a dictator are harder to blame for the actions of their leader or militant factions from their country.

Also, what we see on the news about Muslims or Arabs shouting death to Americans might need to be taken with a grain of salt, i mean look who provides those stories and inflames the American people with them.

Beside, not all Arabic people or Muslims live in the middle east. Death to all Arabs means death to people in my neighbourhood. And Americans have the education and resources to know better. Like access to schools, newspapers, TV and the internet which they take for granted. Ignorance breeds hatred and the US has no excuse for having ignorant, uneducated citizens, not and still claim bragging rights to be the greatest nation ever.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 12 February 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
well spoken scout
From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 12 February 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the vast majority are totally innocent of any past atrocity

Well, seeing as how America's current comfortable position is largely the result of a genocide followed by a massive campaign of enslavement... I know, I know, history is irrelevant, what have you done for me lately...

Well, right now Americans - and Canadians and Europeans too, particularly the wealthier ones - enjoy a standard of living that flows directly from the violent economic exploitation of the world's most defenseless, the powerless, the voiceless. Every barrel of oil, every ounce of chocolate, gold, coffee, beef - virtually any commodity you care to name - is purchased with the blood and agony of a vast groaning unseen world - largely unimaginable to the average walmart shoper.

Innocent, perhaps. But complicit, just the same.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 12 February 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Every barrel of oil, every ounce of chocolate, gold, coffee, beef

I only eat Alberta beef ron...can I get a free pass on that part of the explotation?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 12 February 2003 05:37 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoa. I've never heard any Moslems say "Let's kill all Americans", ever. But they do say nasty stuff like "Lets get those infidels out of our countries", or "Lets teach them Islam!" *gasp*
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 12 February 2003 05:37 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure, sheep. Ego te absolvo. It's organic, right?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
rbil
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posted 12 February 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for rbil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: IRC: irc.bcwireless.net JOIN: #linuxtalk | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 February 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A propos of whatever you want, I like this quote.

"Since the end of World War II, the Americans have spent $19 trillion on what they call defence. Which, they spell differently, and define very differently.

If you were to spend 26 million dollars every day since the birth of Christ, you'd have spent less than the Americans have spent on "defence" since the end of the Second World War."


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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