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Author Topic: Honour Killings?
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find this deplorable and terribly sad if true.

Honour Killings?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geez, they're as bad as the NYT now. I used to read the JPost, but now they have a stupid login. Oh, well.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am able to access this...what's the problem?
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Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 11:18 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is demanding that I create a user name and password. I refuse to do this for the NYT and certainly won't for the JPost. I don't go to newspapers that demand that unless I can borrow a fake communal one.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 11:24 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos, all you have to do is click on the link and the article comes up. You do not need any password or registration
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pogge
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posted 07 February 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, yes you do.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 February 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not so, Mishei: I can't get in without registering either.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope, it redirects me immediately to their "Membership Centre." I suspect that you or someone else on your machine already has a username and password and your login is being stored as a cookie in your browser. This will cause the JPost server to take you immediately to the article.

I have never created one for this browser.
No cookie => Must create membership.
No thanks.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 07 February 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've had a little side window trying to load this article for the past thirty minutes. I agree that this load time is deplorable.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bizarre, OK my apologies. Here then is the text of the article.

At least 31 Palestinian women murdered in 'honor killings' in 2002
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

Advertisement

At least 31 Palestinian women have been murdered in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 2002 in what is known as "honor killings", where a female is executed by a male member of her family for perceived misuse of her sexuality.

Most of the victims were under the age of 18 and some had been sexually abused or raped by male relatives, according to statistics released by Palestinian police Thursday.

The latest murder was perpetrated earlier this week when a woman from a village near Ramallah strangled to death her 17-year-old daughter for staying away from home for a few days. The mother has been arrested, but her family is employing heavy pressure on the Palestinian Authority to release her "so she can attend to her other children."

"It's a very serious problem," said Dr. Azmi Shuaibi, member of the Legal Committee of the Palestinian Legislative Council. "The entire society bears the responsibility in combating this phenomenon. The first step should be to recognize that the problem e"

Shuaibi said he planned to hold a special session of the Legal committee to discuss the issue of "honor killings" to pave the way for a PLC meeting that would discuss violence against women.

Maisoun Wahidi, a senior official with the PA's Ministry of Social Welfare, said "honor killings' constitute a very serious threat to Palestinian society. "Most of the victims are adolescent girls who were sexually abused or raped by members of their families and later killed for bringing shame," she explained. Wahidi said the ministry was working toward opening shelters for battered women and victims of sexual abuse.

The deputy commander of the Ramallah and al Bireh police, Abdel Karim Abu Rabi, revealed that there has been a significant rise in cases of violence against women over the past few months in comparison with 2002.

In 2002, he said, his station received 31 complaints related to the use of violence against women, including one murder case. By contrast, police have dealt with 8 similar complaints since the beginning of this year.

According to figures released by women organizations, there has also been a significant rise in the number of cases of incest in Palestinian society. One of the women groups reported more than 400 cases in the West Bank during 2002.
Previous article Next article


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 07 February 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, perhaps you could cut and paste the article into babble. I'd like to read it, but I'm not going to create an account with the site its hosted on.
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
See above Evenflow. Again apologies for the confusion
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evenflow
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posted 07 February 2003 11:48 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
I agree, this is deplorable and reprehensible in every sense of the word.

The people committing these terrible crimes are displaying all the compassion and conscience of an IDF soldier.


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Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 12:01 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It should be noted that terrible phenomena like these are quite highly correlated with societies under stress. Many men exert power inside the home when they have none outside. This is due to the identification of masculinity with power and should be well-known to most babblers. It is not surprising that extreme incidents like these increase when powerlessness increases.

And yes, I am talking about Root Causes. So sue me.


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Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The people committing these terrible crimes are displaying all the compassion and conscience of an IDF soldier.


Can you not look at this terrible situation without finding a way to shit on Israel? Or is that all you know how to do?

quote:
It should be noted that terrible phenomena like these are quite highly correlated with societies under stress. Many men exert power inside the home when they have none outside. This is due to the identification of masculinity with power and should be well-known to most babblers. It is not surprising that extreme incidents like these increase when powerlessness increases.
Bullshit. This has been going on long before tha Israeli/Palestinian crisis. What a shameful rationalization!

[ 07 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is also going on right here, right now, Mishei, wherever you live. Why are you focusing on Palestinians? Why not deal with the extensive violence close to home? Are you using it as an issue to beat the Palestinians with? How shameful to use their suffering for your own chauvanistic political ends! "Look at the benighted Palestinians, aren't we Westerners so much more wonderful." I am looking for a reason for your focus on this particular incident of violence against women when such is ubiquitous the world over, and I can only see political ones whether you have even admitted them to yourself or not.

The article noted a rise in incidents over the past little while. I want to know what is different about now that causes this rise. The answer to me is pretty obvious.

Violence against women has roots that can be analysed both from the environment around us and deduced from the state of affairs between men and women as genders. But not only from there. It is utterly ridiculous that you seem to oppose this analysis.


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Michelle
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posted 07 February 2003 12:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Mandos.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Honour killings" is a politically loaded term. When it is used in this context it raises a certain red flag--that victimized women are being used for political ends that will almost certainly increase their victimization.

[ 07 February 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


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skdadl
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posted 07 February 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Women's sexuality as 1) threat; and 2) capital: libraries have been written on these topics, so it's a bit daunting to try to write sensitively about such a complicated topic in a short post here.

True, it has been a long time since honour killings were legal in most Western countries (although I think every culture has a history of them). It has certainly only been during the last twenty years, though, that a woman's sexuality, in and of itself, has been ruled out by courts here as a way of undermining her defence against violation.

It's also true that when we look at most cultures where honour killings still occur, we are looking at cultures that have been grossly distorted by contact with ours, and analysing how "essential" such traditions might be in those cultures becomes complicated, perhaps impossible.

There are many intelligent organizations learning how to work against such "traditions" wherever they have persisted/sprung up. Sanctimony tends not to be their first choice of approach.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 12:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Violence against women has roots that can be analysed both from the environment around us and deduced from the state of affairs between men and women as genders. But not only from there. It is utterly ridiculous that you seem to oppose this analysis.


The only analysis I reject is your contention that somehow Israel is to be blamed for this tragedy.

I have never EVER minmized the tragedy women face anywhere in the world. This article focuses on "honour killings" in this part of the world. I sadly believe that it goes on elsewhere but this article was one I found highlighting the tragedy in the Middle East. Shame on you for politicizing it to the extent that isarel becomes the villain in a tragedy not of their making.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
rbil
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posted 07 February 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for rbil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geez, gulp, I actually have to agree this time with Mishei. I know that he/she has a political agenda here (as we all do) and don't doubt that posting this article does highlight some backward elements within the Palestinian commmunity. But it is rather stupid to blame this on Israeli occupation.
From: IRC: irc.bcwireless.net JOIN: #linuxtalk | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 07 February 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's your point Mishei? All I see is racism coming from you.

quote:
...the tragedy in the Middle East
is Israel.

Here's a more balanced veiw of domestic abuse in Israel (1998):
In Israel, 200,000 women may be abused every year


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 01:14 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No one is blaming anything directly on the Israeli occupation. Violence there would be with or without Israel. However, we are talking about violence against women in a particular context. That context undeniably involves Israel.

It is Mishei's motives we are looking at here. Why does he, with the position he takes, choose to post something about Palestinian women? Fine: we all care about violence against women. He may not even realize it, but it was he who made this issue political.

I am very sensitive about this topic. A few weeks ago, I was hanging out with a bunch of math undergrad students, and this grad student shows up. I known this guy for a few years--he is a South African white who is still pro-apartheid, an avid supporter of Israel (no accident), and a dreadful misogynist whose divorce previously was no surprise to me.

What was his first topic of conversation? This Amazingly Funny article he had read in the Ottawa Citizen about the tragic situation of Saudi Arab women. The Citizen, in its sneering way, posted an article about how women have to ask male store clerks to shop for their underwear for them--presumably to tell us how barbaric Arabs were, nothing constructive on how to improve their plight. So this guy and his Zionist friend were laughing and sniggering away at these women, and boasting about how civilized they were and Israel is, etc, etc.

I was speechless with rage, as you can imagine. If this guy had been running Saudi Arabia, women would likely go mandatory topless or with bikinis and would probably all have to have breast implants, judging by the way he talks about women at every other time. And there he was.

This is an extreme example, but it is how I feel whenever pro-Zionist individuals such as Mishei talk about women in Muslim countries and societies. It inevitably serves the logic that because women's lives in Israel and the West may be somewhat better, it gives them an excuse to dominate the barbarians. Because the plight of women is their plight, and it is that very domination that helps to hinder attempts to free them.

I cannot, simply cannot take Mishei's (or any of his ilk) posts on the subject of women in any other way but political. It is simply unbelievable and impossible to think that it is pure concern.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 07 February 2003 01:38 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What was his first topic of conversation? This Amazingly Funny article he had read in the Ottawa Citizen about the tragic situation of Saudi Arab women. The Citizen, in its sneering way, posted an article about how women have to ask male store clerks to shop for their underwear for them--presumably to tell us how barbaric Arabs were, nothing constructive on how to improve their plight

This is a complete lie by the way. In Dharan and Al-khobar at least, I've seen fancy lingerie shops on just about every corner, and have seen, with my own eyes, women shopping for underwear by themselves.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 01:43 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Saudi Arabia is not uniform in its application of what they perceive as religious law (mostly unprecedented). It varies by geography, I believe. But whether it is true or not, the point still stands.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 February 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When I was a teenager and for at least a decade afterwards, single underage girls in Canada who became pregnant were commonly sent by their families to homes where they waited to deliver their babies, who were then almost automatically taken from them and put up for adoption.

That such a thing had happened was universally considered deeply shameful to the girl's family -- and by just about all families -- and a disgrace to be hidden. That the girl might be being victimized by these projections on to her of her family's shame was simply never considered.

Less well known are cases from a generation earlier in Canada, in which young women could actually be apprehended and jailed against their will, on the request of their fathers (!), if the father believed that his daughter's behaviour was sullying the family "honour."

There has been a thread in the Feminism Forum on such a case -- the woman victimized by her father's sense of "honour" is still alive and, I believe, has now won compensation from the province of Ontario for the state's violation of her civil liberties and security of person. Her child was also taken from her, if I remember correctly. I'll look above for the links.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I cannot, simply cannot take Mishei's (or any of his ilk) posts on the subject of women in any other way but political. It is simply unbelievable and impossible to think that it is pure concern.


I have posted on woman's issues here dealing with violence and the woman's right to choice. Did these posts also have something to do with the fact that I support Israel

No, this is simply an attempt to divert this issue away from these tragic circumstances.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 February 2003 02:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the reaction of the Palestinian authorities quoted in the article, it would appear that these killings are against the law in the OT. Is that true?

In that event, we are looking here at the kind of prejudice and superstition that, I've tried to suggest above, is not so far in the past of any culture -- women, especially young, fertile women, having been the awful problem that we are to everyone else, eh?

Wringing hands is simply not the way to address these issues, IMNSHO. We start working with people generally. Above all, though, and first of all, we make sure that women are going to school. There is overwhelming evidence that that single factor -- women's education -- drives a multitude of other positive social changes in every society. (Well, unless you're Mark Steyn.)

So: are we making sure that all those Palestinian girls are in school every day?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 07 February 2003 03:03 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is deplorable. It's good to see that the PA and the PLC is trying to bring some of the perpetrators to justice. As the PLC spokesthingy noted in the article, education is one of the keys to combatting this practice. It appears as though more is happening to combat this practice within the PA and the PLC than in some other states controlled by fundamental Islamic governments (I'm thinking of Nigeria, but I think this is going on in S. Arabia, too, is it not?).
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 03:28 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei: You took me out of context. This appears to be a habit. I cannot take threads by you titled "Honour Killings?" about Palestinian women to be politically innocent or unmotivated. Even if it is, then, objectively speaking, Israeli occupation is still profoundly relevant--as I have pointed out, and as you have not refuted except with a peculiar unsubstantiated denial and deflection.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Even if it is, then, objectively speaking, Israeli occupation is still profoundly relevant--as I have pointed out, and as you have not refuted except with a peculiar unsubstantiated denial and deflection.
Because the suggestion is as ridiculous as claiming that Canada is relevant to this tragedy. Secondly it seems that (for a change) a number here agree with me.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 07 February 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You'll find we all tend to agree on most gross abuses of humanity. Funny that.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 February 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl asked a very good question: who is making sure that Palestinian girls go to school? If they are not, what is preventing them?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 07:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahhh I get it..It's Israel's fault
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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posted 07 February 2003 08:15 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Because the suggestion is as ridiculous as claiming that Canada is relevant to this tragedy.
Instead of evasions and dismissals why not respond intelligently?
You posted the article, so what have you got against discussing it?
Sexual abuse is not something simply in the genes, afterall. I think living conditions and the environment have a lot to do with aggression. A climate of violence, curfews, educational collapse , high unemployment, certainly have an impact on sex and the family. Just give it a moment's reflection. Or do you believe certain races are innately violent and depraved?

Mishei, I'm asking your view since you posted this. I trust you are concerned.

[ 07 February 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Mishei
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posted 07 February 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My view of "honour killings" is that they are disgusting. I do not believe one culture is more prone to this than another but it cannot be denied that presently within the Middle East honour killings amongst Palestinians and Arabs is horrific. I support segments within their societies that are battling this cancer and I believe that all men and women should speak out often and hard against it.

I deplore those on this Board that would point to Israel on any issue and look for how it is to blame. I believe that speaks more to their animus against the Jewish state than their willingness to accept the evil of this phenomena.

[ 07 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 08 February 2003 12:47 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sexual crimes are always analysed on this board in terms of the social, political, economic, etc, etc contexts in which they occur. Anything else is hollow outrage, devoid of solutions. Consequently, we are analysing the increase in such crimes in Palestinian society as was mentioned in the article you posted, Mishei. We are looking at obvious aspects of Palestinian life that may produce this. What is the most obvious aspect? You answered it yourself, Mishei. Does a guilty conscience prick the mind? Will the sun rise tomorrow morning?


What you want from us, as you have clearly stated, is hollow, thoughtless moral outrage. Since, presumably, we are not focusing on the aspect of the problem that you wish us to focus on, which is Palestinian culture. I am not playing your game, Mishei.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 08 February 2003 12:48 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is an extreme example, but it is how I feel whenever pro-Zionist individuals such as Mishei talk about women in Muslim countries and societies. It inevitably serves the logic that because women's lives in Israel and the West may be somewhat better, it gives them an excuse to dominate the barbarians. Because the plight of women is their plight, and it is that very domination that helps to hinder attempts to free them.

Bingo. Why single out the Palestinians? Why does this particular article speak to you, Mishei, and not any of the hundreds of others on women's issues?

Could it be that you want to remind us that the Palestinians are, in your opinion, "backward" and inferior to your beloved Israelis?

I find it very interesting that when you start a thread on Palestinians, it is to point out the "backwardness" of Palestinian society. Because of course, backward people don't deserve to be treated like human beings and can't possibly be allowed to form their own nation or make their own decisions or have their opinions and concerns taken seriously. Right?

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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posted 08 February 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My view of "honour killings" is that they are disgusting.
Of course they are, and I don't think there is anyone on this board who would disagree with you. But it seems to me a bit absurd to point one's finger at something, says its disgusting, and leave it at that. We can all sit on our high horses and condemn injustice, but what purpose does it serve? Gape aghast at the horror, and then what?

True concern looks into the conditions that give rise to such evil. You cannot ignore the conditions. Why are you averse to putting this tragic form of domestic violence into its context?

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Mandos
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posted 08 February 2003 01:09 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Richard Perle, one of Israel's best friends in the US administration, said that "Terrorism must be decontextualized." Because by decontextualizing terrorism, we are left with the hollow outrage that allows people like Perle to advance their immoral agendas. Their perverse agendas that seek to use our decontextualized, thoughtless anger as fuel for heartless machination.


In the same vein, Mishei is telling us that in the Middle East (and, apparently, nowhere else), sexual violence must be decontextualized. Because the same useless, empty outrage will thus flow. The useful outrage. But not the outrage that will help us find a solution.


Unfortunately, there can be no solution unless those girls can go back to school. This is true everywhere, but Mishei wanted us to talk about Palestinians. And Mishei himself has admitted what that obstacle is.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 08 February 2003 01:11 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The notion of "honor killings" is, of course, reprehensible in the extreme, no matter what the culture that allows this or teaches it.

However, it is to be noted that the "backwardness" of Palestinian-Arabs is as much a function of deliberate long-term Israeli programs designed to disrupt the ability of Palestinian-Arabs to live their lives as members of a secular state with a commitment to an egalitarian education system and with sufficient economic opportunities for adults to care for their children without incurring hardship.

So to blame the Palestinian-Arabs for their "backwardness" is blaming the victim, a process not all that different from the men who rape women believed to have been "sullying their sexuality".


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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posted 08 February 2003 01:30 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Richard Perle, one of Israel's best friends in the US administration, said that "Terrorism must be decontextualized." Because by decontextualizing terrorism, we are left with the hollow outrage that allows people like Perle to advance their immoral agendas.
Exactly. 'Don't ask why.' That's the not-so-secret formula driving U.S and Israeli policy. Richard "total war" Perle is on the money. How despicable.

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skdadl
rabble-rouser
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posted 08 February 2003 10:26 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A caution: I think that North Americans, especially, because they have until recently seen so little news direct from the OT, make very broad assumptions about just how "backward" living conditions, and thus manners and morals, among the Palestinians are. Even those sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians seem to be assuming that all are living as refugees.

Obviously, they're all living under great strain, and I'm not suggesting that our concern for the most wretched among them abate.

But common sense should tell us that a culture that has produced a number of highly sophisticated spokeswomen has had a thriving middle class for some time, in which some women, anyway, have been able to take on full responsibilities of citizenship and even leadership.

I remember being startled by a photo I saw only a few months back, of three Palestinian girls, maybe 12, 13, shrinking from an IDF guard who was stopping them from continuing on their way to school. What startled me was the way they were dressed -- navy jumpers very like the ones I used to wear to school, very like some private-school uniforms ... My bad, obviously -- my prejudice. What did I expect them to be wearing? or to be like? Well, like the families described in this article.

And yet, again, even this article makes it clear that the PA is opposed to these practices and is trying to address them. Under current conditions, as many have remarked above, that can't be easy.

Get those girls to school!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 February 2003 10:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you all for proving a point I have long believed. The same point made by those who have tried to warn that there remains some on the left who will blame Israel for pratically everything. This, they have said, raises a major question as to their animus and lack of objectivity.

In the case of this issue there are many here who insist on ignoring the tragedy to focus on the culpability of Israelis. This despite the fact that "honour killings" in this part of the world are older than Israel itself. Who do you all blame for honour killings prior to Israel's existance or before 1967?

You see people like Rose/Berger/Ruby, I believe see responses on boards like this or hear commentary elsewhere similar to the BS here about how Israel (the eternal evil in the Middle East ) must be held to blame for evrything. Take your blinders off folks; while Israel is by no means perfect neither are the states that surround it and to point your accusing finger constanatly at the Jewish state will raise exactly the questions that Jews on the left have been asking as of late. Not that you seem to care...

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 10:56 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Huh? I won't presume to speak for anyone else here, Mishei, but you have really offended me. Read my posts; I am so concerned about what is happening to Palestinian women, all of them, and in a variety of different ways.

So you tell me, Mishei: what is it I've missed. After I've written all those words, what are the ones I left out, Mishei?

In what way do you "care" for these women, Mishei? What do you propose be done about their situation?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, I named no one by name. Stop taking offence simply because I claimed that "there remains some on the left who will blame Israel for pratically everything".

Unless, that is, you believe you are amongst that "some".

What am i doing you ask? As much as I can. I have written to my MP, have exposed the tragedy in many different forums; have spoken with friends who are Muslim as well as one Palestinian social worker I have known for years living in Ramallah. I cant do a hell of a lot but I try...and you Skdadl, what have you done?


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skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I still don't know WHAT YOU SAID. Listing your private contacts is not going to help me a hell of a lot in figuring out where there is a sensitivity lack among all babblers assembled here (and I think you missed the word "many" in your own post above, an intensification of that "some").

What do you say of these situations? What do you propose your MP do about them?

One of the reasons I have trouble believing there is anything specifically related to the worries of Messrs Ruby/Rose/Berger here is that you, Mishei, post and write almost word for word as Markbo was doing a year ago during the attack on Afghanistan. Overnight Markbo had turned into the defender of Afghan womanhood, whose liberation, he contended, was a priority of the noble Americans, and again and again he berated babblers, especially feminist babblers, for not caring about the women of Afghanistan as he so deeply and tirelessly did. *pause to suppress gag reflex*

He didn't seem all that interested, of course, that most of us were trying to follow the lead of RAWA, the truly heroic Afghan women's organization, whose position on the attack was not at all Markbo's ...

One thing Markbo didn't do, mind, was accuse those of us who were truly trying to think from the perspective of Afghan women of being anti-semites. I think that's the only variable we have here.

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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Babbler # 3508

posted 08 February 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rose/Berger/Ruby
Rose/Berger/Ruby
Rose/Berger/Ruby
Rose/Berger/Ruby
Rose/Berger/Ruby

Please stop that Mishei. It's scaring me.

Perhaps I was too quick to place 'Honour Killings' in the context of the cruel Occupation and its effects. It is a practice that goes back to pre-Islamic days, and is not, as the article seems to suggest, endemic only among Palestinians. Jordan, Pakistan, India also practise this atrocity. Delve into history and you find it practiced in Europe as well. Samual Richardson's novel, Clarissa, seems a remnant of that psychology.

As to why it is reported to be on the rise in Palestinian society, some of the comments you took offence to, do I feel factor in here. Secular movements and access to education would, I believe, reduce the instances of this crime.

The Koran: "In the day of judgment, Allah will ask, why do you kill innocent women?"

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One thing Markbo didn't do, mind, was accuse those of us who were truly trying to think from the perspective of Afghan women of being anti-semites.
Frankly, Skadal I am sick and tired of you and others continually lieing about me. Why do you feel the need to claim I called you an antisemite? Why? I have never done so. Why this need to say over and over again how you "mind" me accusing YOU of being an antisemite.

I challenge you once and for all to come up with ANY post where I call YOU an antisemite. If you cant then STOP DEFAMING ME. Simply put its not nice, its a lie and its grossly unfair. Sorta like being a bully on Babble. Better idea should we ask the moderator to determine if I have accused YOU of being an antisemite and see what she says?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 08 February 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Mishei. If you carefully read what I said, I quite clearly stated that Israel cannot be held to account for the mere existence of sexual violence in Palestinian society. That would be totally absurd. However, you prolonged the discussion by strenuously objecting to mere mention of the obvious role of occupation in the present situation.


And yes, in the Middle East I consider Israel to be the lynchpin of a very large number of problems, many of which are not originally its responsibility, but are instead set up by the circumstances of its creation and the power politics that surrounded it. Aside from the egregious settlers, I have little personal animosity to most of Israel's residents--but the truth is, Israel is simply the biggest negative factor in West/Muslim relations, and it has numerous deleterious effects on the region, and it was predicated on an unjust concept design to ameliorate an unjust situation, the plight of the Jews. And such solutions rarely work on the long run.


But this likely means nothing to you. You are totally focused on decontextualizing Palestinian society from the occupation. There are variables in Palestinian society quite separate from Israel, as skdadl has pointed out. But they constantly interact with variables over which Israel has control. You would separate these things; I would examine their effect on one another.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ask her rather whether it looks as though you were, in your vague and insinuating way, accusing "many" babblers of being knee-jerk opponents of Israel, a category that then seems to slide towards something else when you raise our old friends Messrs Ruby/Rose/Berger.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 08 February 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you have played a rhetorical hit-and-run game using other people's articles. I'm not sure the moderator would be sympathetic as she is likely included as a target of these hit-and-runs.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh -- but more to the point, Mishei:

Could you answer my simple question above? What did you actually say when you wrote to your MP about the honour killings, and what did you ask him/her to do?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ask her rather whether it looks as though you were, in your vague and insinuating way, accusing "many" babblers of being knee-jerk opponents of Israel, a category that then seems to slide towards something else when you raise our old friends Messrs Ruby/Rose/Berger.
This is the worst form of rumour-mongering. Ok so now you are saying I did not call you an antisemite? What is it Skadadl either I did or didnt. Allegations I supposedly insinuated you are a "knee-jerk" opponent of Israel" (which I also reject) is far far different than calling you an antisemite now isnt it?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 01:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Could you answer my simple question above? What did you actually say when you wrote to your MP about the honour killings, and what did you ask him/her to do?


I asked her to work towards the Canadian government providing needed financial and social resources to help the PA specifically deal with this problem. Now what did you do?

quote:
Mishei, you have played a rhetorical hit-and-run game using other people's articles. I'm not sure the moderator would be sympathetic as she is likely included as a target of these hit-and-runs.
You call it what you will. The articles i posted were not written by zealots or extremists. I have every right to post them and you have every right to interpret them as you want. But you have no right to put words in my mouth. You have no righht to lie about me. And if there is a modicum of fairness on this Board from the modeator it is clear I never called Skdadl an antisemite EVER. IT IS A LIE.

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I couldn't agree more!

You are never straightforward. It's so true. I often long for you to be more straightforward, but ... all we get is this kind of slippy-slidey-ness:

quote:
people like Rose/Berger/Ruby, I believe see responses on boards like this or hear commentary elsewhere similar to the BS here about how Israel (the eternal evil in the Middle East ) must be held to blame for evrything ... and to point your accusing finger constanatly at the Jewish state will raise exactly the questions that Jews on the left have been asking as of late. Not that you seem to care...

What the hell are we supposed to make of that as a broadside against babble, Mishei??? What what what???

And precisely what ARE those questions that Jews on the left have been asking of late?

That's what I mean by insinuate, Mishei. At least some of those others use the words, Mishei. You just slip and slide around, and then pretend that you didn't do nuffin' ...

ROLL. EYES.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 01:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, talkin about slippin and slidin. You lied about me didnt you? And yet you try to change the subject back to me. This tactic is typical of those who refuse to admit culpability.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 08 February 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You just used that tactic when you accused skdadl of lying.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where did I lie about you, Mishei?

I said that you insinuate all kinds of things about "many" babblers without ever quite coming out and making an honest charge. I believe that to be true.

As for me personally, two things are true:

1. You have once in the past certified me NOT an anti-semite, agreed; and

2. I have real strong feelings about babble and people who come here to police it, Mishei -- I also have real strong feelings about standing up for other people when I see they are vulnerable to operators of various kinds. You think I'm going to abandon other babblers when you make broadside charges against them? Think again, Mishei.

I meant what I said, and I said what I meant;
An elephant's faithful, one hundred per cent.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 08 February 2003 01:57 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, and it's very nice of you to write that to your MP, Mishei. Maybe one of these days there'll be a PA that is permitted to function in order to deal with such issues. Maybe more than that.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One thing Markbo didn't do, mind, was accuse those of us who were truly trying to think from the perspective of Afghan women of being anti-semites.

Skdadl,here is your quote WORD FOR WORD. "...those of us (my emphasis) demonstartes that you have lumped yourself into the group since you are one of those who "think from the perspective of Afghan women". Hence the accusation, the LIE that I called you an antisemite. Please stop lieing.

quote:
You think I'm going to abandon other babblers when you make broadside charges against them? Think again, Mishei.

OOO that's scary. Yes there are so many of me here against so few of you. Thank you Skdadl for being the Babble sherriff. What would we do without you?

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 02:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh, and it's very nice of you to write that to your MP, Mishei.
HSkdadl asked I answered. But as is the case here many times any answer I give is ridiculed. Oh well sticks and stones....

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 08 February 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was it ridicule? I wasn't ridiculing. I was pretty serious. It's a serious situation.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, on babble, I am almost always "us."

I'm a socialist, eh? I'm also proprietorial, and loyal to boot. See elephant quote above.

Attack this board with overgeneralizations, and I will fight back.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All I ask is that you stop lieing. That is no generalization that is specific. STOP LIEING!!!!
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, again: show me a lie. I have not been lying. (NB the sp.)

You are teasing an inference out of something I wrote. Fine: I had a much easier time demonstrating that you'd been implying connections that you would nevertheless not put into words.

I see no lies in what I've written. You seem determined to keep slapping labels on me, as on others (ie: that I "lie"), but you can never explain to others how your labels work. Funny, that -- but not my problem.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the third time are you suggesting in this quote that I have called you antisemitic?

quote:

One thing Markbo didn't do, mind, was accuse those of us who were truly trying to think from the perspective of Afghan women of being anti-semites.

Now are you one who "truly tries to think from the perspective of an Afghan women"? If yes, then are you not saying that I have called you an antisemite?

If all this is true then you are lieing.I have never called you an antisemite. Let's not play word games. Either you believe what you wrote or in the alternative you made a mistake. Can't whistle and suck at the same time my Mom use to tell me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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Babbler # 3393

posted 08 February 2003 05:15 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A gross attempt to slander Arab people. A person or organization that only posts negative information about a group of people, is engaging racist activity, even if some or the whole part of the inforamtion is true.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 08 February 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you keep having to ask me questions about what I said (so, patently obviously, I didn't say it in so many words) ...

... while simultaneously denying that you said something if you didn't say it in so many words (although your shorthand reference to Ruby/Rose/Berger does make the charge for you, in so many words).

No, Mishei, you can't have your cake and eat it too. No, Mishei, I have not been lying (NB: sp) on this thread. I don't lie.

And otherwise, Mishei: *plonk*


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 08 February 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stop lieing? Ok, I'll sleep in my bed sitting up next time.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 08 February 2003 06:27 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, you keep having to ask me questions about what I said (so, patently obviously, I didn't say it in so many words) ...
So it is your claim that I have directly called you an antisemite...Skdadl, the proof you offer
quote:
... while simultaneously denying that you said something if you didn't say it in so many words (although your shorthand reference to Ruby/Rose/Berger does make the charge for you, in so many words).


is no proof at all. There is no direct allegation. Why? Because I never said it. NEVER EVER. Continuing to post I did is LYING. Indeed even Ruby et al did not make an allegation of antisemitism agaist all in the left. So I know you believe you did not lie. But your claim as i have outlined four times now is that I called you an antisemite. No proof and yet you continue. I really do not know what else to call it other than a lie. And now with all you know a wilful lie.

[ 08 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 08 February 2003 07:18 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you tend to link to people who make rather feeble nods in the direction of saying that criticism of Israeli actions in the Middle East is legit, and then return to slagging large groups of leftists for "possibly crossing the line" based on rather vague criteria.

That is the beef that I and others have with you. Mmkay?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 08 February 2003 07:54 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Although it really doesn't have a great deal to do with the article you posted, that article being, in the opinion of many on this board, an attempt to smear Palestinians as "backward" and inferior.

quote:
I asked her to work towards the Canadian government providing needed financial and social resources to help the PA specifically deal with this problem. Now what did you do?

Well, that's nice, but until the PA can actually function, it's irrelevant, ridiculously so. This problem cannot be dealt with properly until Palestinians can move from town to town without being delayed and harassed constantly - i.e. until the occupation ENDS.

You're terribly concerned about the women who've been killed by their families. What about the many more who've been shot by the IDF? Oh, but wait. That's just an "unfortunate accident" that happens when a hostile foreign military is running the show. Illegally, I might add.

Sure, fine. Lobby the Canadian government to help the Palestinians fix their problems. But their BIGGEST problem, by far, is the occupation, and to suggest otherwise is dishonest.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Shenanigans
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Babbler # 2993

posted 09 February 2003 01:02 AM      Profile for Shenanigans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting point I think that could have been brought up, is that just about as many women in Ontario alone have been murdered in male "domestic" violence for last year. You can probably trace the woman's sexuality to being a prime reason for the murder in these cases.

So I don't believe that it has a ton to do with stress outside the home. The way they are killed may be more influenced externally, but the end process, the woman is still dead, often being tortured one way or the other.

I do believe it has a lot to do with many males who have the view that women are still property. To be discarded, violated, killed at will. I also believe that VAW is indeed a political issue. Women's bodies are political, whether it's on a nationality issue, race, class, it will always be a gender issue. And that said, I think that if all was smooth sailing in the middle east, there would still be as many women dead.

As horrible as the crimes abroad are, as I work day in and out with women survivors of abuse, that people could really take an interest in VAW here at home.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3508

posted 09 February 2003 02:09 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps just as poignant and shocking is what is happening in Hong Kong these days. There has been a sharp rise in cases of battered husbands:
quote:
Hong Kong women hit out
Hong Kong has seen a surge in cases of domestic violence committed by wives against their husbands.

The problem of husbands being battered by their wives is suddenly being taken seriously in Hong Kong.

Last year, 179 men said they had been battered, the territory's social welfare department said.
BBC NEWS


I for one am writing to my MP.

[ 09 February 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


From: in transit | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged

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