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Author Topic: How to start an uprising
Moredreads
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posted 02 February 2003 02:33 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How to start an uprising
by Jeff Halper

Jeff Halper, who is part of a group which monitors house demolitions and settlement-building by the Israeli authorities, accuses Israel of cynicism and bad faith in this summary of the stalled Middle East peace process.


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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 09:47 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I respecr Mr. Halper's commitment to this cause.

I also wish to point out that Babble is flooded with these type of articles obviously trying to make a point and create a negative image of Israel. In some cases the criticism is warranted. The only real irony is when I post a number of articles on a subject (ie the left and Israel) also trying to make a point many here interpret that as personal attacks. Just an interesting observation.


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josh
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posted 02 February 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The article is an attack on the policies of a government. What you posted yesterday was a classic "guilt by association attack," totally lacking in substance and factual support.
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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 09:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, it doesn't matter. You can have your interpretaion and it can be right or wrong. The fact is that this type of article is posted here all the time. I may agree with some of the substance , I may disagree. The "tactic" as you and others like to imply I undertake when posting my articles, is the same in anyone's book.

I frankly, have no problem with it. These articles no matter how damning give information, demonstrate where thinking is and even if I disagree with the conclusions or perspective you have every right to post them.


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Moredreads
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posted 02 February 2003 10:12 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought it was informative and funny. Interestingly, I note that when I post Arab persons speaking about their cause, and their feelings about the occupation, you have never noted your respect for their opinions, ever.

Why that?


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skdadl
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posted 02 February 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't think that article presented "a negative image of Israel." I thought it described a succession of acts committed by successive Israeli governments, which is a very different thing.

Yet another different thing is reports of sheerly rhetorical claims made by some people about some other people, often dishonestly lumped together as some kind of monolithic group. Ougie-bougie.


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Moredreads
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posted 02 February 2003 10:24 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear Mishei,

Please post often on this thread today. I think it is important for people to see you avoid discussing the actual topic at hand, and instead making vague and unsubstantiated complaints about consipiracies that seem to appear only at times when people criticize Israel. Your participation is important, as it will help keep the actual story in the public eye. At the same time they will see that you have no substantial argument.


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josh
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posted 02 February 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you're free to post what you want. But you have to be prepared for posters to take offense where offense is warranted.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 February 2003 11:14 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I also wish to point out that Babble is flooded with these type of articles obviously trying to make a point and create a negative image of Israel.

Well, if the facts in them are right, you're just going to have to suck that up. If Israel doesn't want to present a negative image, maybe it shouldn't commit so many negative acts.

quote:

The only real irony is when I post a number of articles on a subject (ie the left and Israel) also trying to make a point many here interpret that as personal attacks. Just an interesting observation.

No, a specious "observation." Apples and oranges. If you want to post a story, go ahead and do that. Post articles about the suffering of Israelis, or the UN's failure to recognise anti-Semitism, or the left's failure to offer assistance with this or that project. Something real.

The articles you post are not factual. They are interpretations and generalisations about "the left" and its motivations.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The articles you post are not factual. They are interpretations and generalisations about "the left" and its motivations.


They are feelings people have based on facts (yes as they interpret them but their interpretations are as valid as yours, no?), and their own personal experiences. You cannt deny peoples feelings. Acknowledge them, question them but you cannot deny them.

quote:
I think it is important for people to see you avoid discussing the actual topic at hand,
Another misrepresentation (or should I call it a lie). I have posted my position on this article in the second post. You of course demand MORE MORE MORE...your namesake I suppose.

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Smith
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posted 02 February 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They are feelings people have based on facts (yes as they interpret them but their interpretations are as valid as yours, no?), and their own personal experiences. You cannt deny peoples feelings. Acknowledge them, question them but you cannot deny them.

Which is exactly why they're not worthy of debate.

And what you see, Mishei, every time you post one of those articles, is questioning. Angry questioning, but questioning. I don't know what "questioning" is in your book, but in mine, it's analysis and criticism. You get lots of both of those. Quit whining.

quote:
I have posted my position on this article in the second post.

You support his commitment to his cause? Great. Guess there's nothing more for you to say, then, is there?

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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WingNut
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posted 02 February 2003 12:11 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm feeling a little bit more rational today, so I think I will jump in here.

Mishei, I would like you to pop back to a time, not long ago, when some posters equated the current Israeli administration with Nazism. Try to remember how angry you were. You expressed that such comparisons were wrong, and more than that, hurtful to you personally and many others who had suffered horribly at the hands of Nazism. Fair enough. Now ask yourself how can you then turn and inflict that very same hurt by associating the entire left with brown shirts, the political shock troops of nazism?

Further, discussion is brought about by identifying a problem, recognizing it, and then discussing it. I will refer you back, again, to Rebick's article where she discusses antisemitism and the left. It is a thought provoking article deserving of rational debate.

On the other hand, the articles you prefer to post, instead slurs the entire left. They do not look at specific instances, causes, solutions. Rather they seek to denigrate the entire left. They reek of the same type of propaganda and disinformation one would use to demonize and isolate an entire group for political purposes. In short, they are the same type of pseudo-intellectual essays once, and still often, used to develop and and propagate bigotry and hatred against Jews and other minorities.

How can a reader be tolerant and a leftist if leftists are antisemitic? How can a reader be a critic of Israeli policy if to be a critic is to be an antisemite?

Your articles, Meshei, are not intended to stoke debate but to silence criticism or better yet, divide the left and even ultimately destroy the left. And to this purpose we now find the broad left, anti-globalists and environmentalists, tree huggers, are all antisemites.

This method can only be counter productive. It cannot yield positive results. What it can do is harden feelings, inflame tensions, and further polarize the debate as we see it happening even here.

Who benefits from this, Mishei? Israel? Palestinians?

Neither, I would argue. Who benefits are those who profit from the violence. No one else.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 12:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Rather they seek to denigrate the entire left
While one or two may have done that for the most part the articles especially the one that really started it all, Rose/Berger/Ruby was careful to note that they were not writng about the entire left. In fact they stated it twice.

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skdadl
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posted 02 February 2003 12:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They stated what twice?

"We're not saying you're all anti-semites -- just that there are anti-semites among you." That's what Ruby/Rose/Berger said.

It was supported by nothing but ougie-bougie. And that's close to Tricky Dick again.


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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 12:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, so are they lieing these decent men? Are they misguided, these decent men? Or are they just so pro-Israel that they will say anything to denigrate the left?

What possible motivation do these decent, intelligent men have to lie and blaspheme some in the left who they feel engage in antisemitic actions?


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Moredreads
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posted 02 February 2003 12:38 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very good Mishei! Is this how you show your 'respect' for Mr. Halper's views. By starting fights about completely unrelated issues.

This is respect?

I think not.

What about something about Oslo, or the occupation? Or what? Is Mr. Halper correct and Israel's position so indefensible that not even you can come up with a defence?

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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skdadl
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posted 02 February 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei: I don't know why they wrote such a bad column. I'm just here to note that it was a bad column, and to say why: because it amounted to fear-mongering; it licensed political attacks by others who are more dangerous, and offered no evidence, no concrete proposals, that would help any of us go anywhere with their vague perceptions.

Other than that, I'm sure they're nice guys. They're just not writers, I guess.


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darkhorse
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posted 02 February 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei's tactic is to hijack the discussion and shift it off course into petty disputes.
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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What about Oslo? As offensive as bulldozing houses may be (and I hate the policy) it is far better than random incursions and killing that result. And for sure far more humane than Homicide bombings. As for Oslo, bulldozing houses is not even part of the agreement as far as I recall.
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Moredreads
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posted 02 February 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well it makes him, and those who defend Israel look ignorant and rude, while keeping attention on the topic. Halper looks extra-reasonable in comparison, which is a good thing.

Reasoned argument: Halper -- opposed to Israel's policy.

Off topic ranting: Mishei -- supporting Israel's policy.

What more do I have to say?

He's right to distract, Halpern's position is dead on the money and there is no way to defend Israel's policy on the West Bank.


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lagatta
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posted 02 February 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really agree with WingNut about this specific point:

Mishei, I would like you to pop back to a time, not long ago, when some posters equated the current Israeli administration with Nazism. Try to remember how angry you were. You expressed that such comparisons were wrong, and more than that, hurtful to you personally and many others who had suffered horribly at the hands of Nazism. Fair enough. Now ask yourself how can you then turn and inflict that very same hurt by associating the entire left with brown shirts, the political shock troops of nazism?

Remember, it is so hurtful for EXACTLY the same reason. The Red Triangles... (I wear one always, from Ras l'front, a French anti-fascist group).

Perhaps not the entire left, but a great many of us. Or believing that leftist criticisms (as opposed to Islamic-fundamentalist, or neo-nazi bigots' criticisms) of Israeli government policy is motivated by anti-semitism. To be accused of anti-semitism, or any form of virulent racism, is a terrible stain on the honour of a leftist.

When I was little, among the things, other than war, that made me rage against the machine were the bombing of a church in Alabama that killed four black girls, reading Anne Frank's diaries, seeing the Auschwitz tattoo on the wrist of a friend's mother, discovering the horrible discrimination faced by Native people here in Canada... The thought of being anti-semitic or otherwise racist turns my stomache.

I know Jeff Halper, he is in no way anti-Israeli. Sure, he is of US origin, but he chose to live in Israel, it is his country now.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 02 February 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Mishei, I mean an A.R.G.U.E.M.E.N.T. not recrimination and counter accusation.
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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 01:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would never call Jeff antisemitic or anti-Israel. I have not called anyone here such names. The thread I started had to do with what I thought would be of interest to people here, that being Cukierman's accusations. Doesn't mean I agree with them.

And Lagatta, the comparision of Israel etc to Nazis is far far different and more offensive ,IMHO, than allegations made about certain segments of the left engaging in antisemitic rhetoric. One may be done inadvertantly and people like Berger et al are trying as a leftists themselves to deal with it.

Nazi comparisions are done, IMHO, with malice of forethought for hurtful purposes and smacks of antisemitism.

Berger/Rose/Ruby are committed leftists who want only the best for the movement hence the introspection that many seem to abhor


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'lance
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posted 02 February 2003 01:24 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The thread I started had to do with what I thought would be of interest to people here, that being Cukierman's accusations.

An accusation that leftists and environmentalists are openly allied with anti-Semites you merely "thought would be of interest" -- to a number of leftists and environmentalists? Disingenous rubbish.


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lagatta
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posted 02 February 2003 01:31 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't agree with that, 'lance, because it is an important news story, at least in France. There is a lot of coverage of it, and the responses by the groups accused, in Le Monde, Le Nouvel Observateur, Ras l'front (anti-fascist publication) and Politis (independent left publication) as well as the organs of the groups accused (Verts, LCR, LO, Union paysanne etc.)

I do wish that the "association" had contained a question mark, to indicate that it was a controversy.

(Edited to add) Oh, I forgot. Mishei, why is associating Israel with Nazism more vile than associating leftists with anti-semitism? Many, many leftists and partisans perished in the concentration camps and were tortured to death by the Gestapo, as you know very well. I know some survivors. I have some stories that would make your hair stand on end, about one friend in particular who was holed up in a house while the SS spent all night torturing a cat to death (sounded like a human baby...). Guess they had to keep in practice.

Were Marc Bloch and Leone Ginzburg tortured to death by the Nazis because they were resistance fighters or because they were Jews? Probably a bit of both.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 February 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nazi comparisions are done, IMHO, with malice of forethought for hurtful purposes and smacks of antisemitism.

I think the point was that Cukierman explicitly made a "Nazi comparison" in the report you linked to.

It is undeniably interesting to me to learn that these things are going on in Europe -- and to learn that this sort of nonsense may be at least part of what's behind all the no-nothing anti-Europeanism some are now indulging in.


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writer
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posted 02 February 2003 01:39 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yet another thread becomes A Debate About The Story According to Mishei. Just one small tip: he needs everyone to play to make the hijacking work.

Is anyone interested in discussing the substance of what began this thread? Was there not already a thread about Cukierman? If people want to continue that discussion, is it not possible to start a new thread?

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, why is associating Israel with Nazism more vile than associating leftists with anti-semitism?
Because, while leftits suffered terribly under nazism, Only Jews and Romani were actually slated for extinction. The vileness of turning that on its head is ...well need i say?

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WingNut
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posted 02 February 2003 02:10 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jews and Romani were actually slated for extinction

I am shocked. How little your narrow mind allows you to know.
The very first victims of Nazism were socialists. Hitler hated the left as much as he hated Jews. Maybe because they were so closely intertwined.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 02 February 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh, the first victims of Nazism were the mentally and physically "unfit". Franz Stangl started out in the euthanasia program, then went to work in the death camps of Sobibor and Treblinka. See Gitta Sereny's excellent book, Into That Darkness.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: writer ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Socialists and Communists were rounded up and detained in concentration camps like Dachau and many died because of the conditions there but they were only sent to the actual death camps (ie gas chambers) if they were Jewish or Roma.

The first population slated for death were the mentally disabled via "euthanasia" in hospitals and institutions but this programme was stopped because of growing opposition from familes and the churches.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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WingNut
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posted 02 February 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is probably true as they couldn't work.
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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 03:12 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am shocked. How little your narrow mind allows you to know.
The very first victims of Nazism were socialists. Hitler hated the left as much as he hated Jews. Maybe because they were so closely intertwined.
And now it is clearly demonstrated that it is your narrow mind that is in question.

I don't suppose an apology will ever be forthcoming but any serious historian of the Nazi era will tell you as in Elie Wiesel's words;

While not all victims of Nazis were Jews all Jews were victims. Wing, many suffered and were killed for their beliefs but once again only Jews and Romani were slated for extinction.

Indeed, the Wansee Coference was called by the Nazi hierarchy of extermination specifically to deal with the "Jewish problem" and to find a "Final Solution" to the Jewish problem. No mention of anyone else in the minutes that survived or in Eichmann's testimony.

Wing it seems, in this case, that it is your narrow mind that is so concentrated on negating anything I post.


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mandrake
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posted 02 February 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The first population slated for death were the mentally disabled via "euthanasia" in hospitals and institutions but this programme was stopped because of growing opposition from familes and the churches.

Too bad the church didn't extend that concern to the Jews.


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Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, this incident can be used to argue that despite the totalitarian nature of the Nazi regime, they were suceptible to public opinion. Of course, the extermination of the Jews was an official secret but if one reads "Hitler's Pope", for example, there is evidence that the basic facts were known by many in prominent positions.

There is also the case of Jewish husbands of German wives in Berlin. These Jews were not rounded up for deportation to Auschwitz until very late in the war. When they were detained their wives occupied the streets outside the police station/detention centre to protest for several days and, ultimately, their husbands were released. So even in the case of Jews, the Nazis were suceptible to public opinion. Makes you think how things might have been different had a protest movement developed once German Jews started disappearing.


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WingNut
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posted 02 February 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will apoligize as soon as you do. Fat chance, eh?

Now that narrow mind of yours:

quote:
n 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that the Third Reich would occupy or influence during World War II. By 1945, close to two out of every three European Jews had been killed as part of the "Final Solution", the Nazi policy to murder the Jews of Europe. Although Jews were the primary victims of Nazi racism, other victims included tens of thousands of Roma (Gypsies). At least 200,000 mentally or physically disabled people were murdered in the Euthanasia Program. As Nazi tyranny spread across Europe, the Nazis persecuted and murdered millions of other people. More than three million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or maltreatment. The Germans targeted the non-Jewish Polish intelligentsia for killing, and deported millions of Polish and Soviet citizens for forced labor in Germany or in occupied Poland. From the earliest years of the Nazi regime, homosexuals and others deemed to be behaving in a socially unacceptable way were persecuted. Thousands of political dissidents (including Communists, Socialists, and trade unionists) and religious dissidents (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) were also targeted. Many of these individuals died as a result of incarceration and maltreatment.

From the Holocaust Museum:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.jsp?ModuleId=10005143



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Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is true, but only Jews and Roma were slated for the gas chambers.
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WingNut
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posted 02 February 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps. But doesn the nature of their persecution and death somehow limit they way in which we view them as victims? Does it somehow negate the harm that likening their descendants to brown shirts cause? Do we not mourn them in the same way and celebrate their bravery because while persecuted, worked to death or murdered they were not subjected to the gas chamber?

If so, do we only mourn for those Jews who were victims of the gas chambers because those who were starved or worked to death or shot on their way to the cattle cars did not die in the same manner?


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Mishei
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posted 02 February 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If so, do we only mourn for those Jews who were victims of the gas chambers because those who were starved or worked to death or shot on their way to the cattle cars did not die in the same manner?


Wing You seem to have taken your ornery pills this week-end.

All Mycroft and I have said is that HISTORICALLY, according to every reputable historian, the Final Solution pertained to Jews and Roma. It does not mean you grieve less or more for others. We were correcting your wrong understanding of history. That's all that's it. Get off your high horse you are arguing against history.

BTW, gas chambers was only one method used to murder the Jews. There was also the Einzatzgruppen (mobile murder squads) that prior to the gas chambers were used to murder more than 0ne million Jews. There was forced starvation, random killings and slave labour as well. It all made up the attempt to annihalate Jews and Roma permanantly from the earth. In fact Hitler was in the midst of establishing a museum to a "lost" people (Jews and Roma) in Prague where he was collecting religious, ethnic and Judaic artifacts etc. he would use for the exhibit at war's end. Thankfully he never got that opportunity.


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WingNut
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posted 02 February 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not debating mycroft, mishei. I do not believe he ever referred to the left as antisemites. The point you seem to be missing, on your own high horse, is that there were many victims of nazi persecution including the left. Including homosexuals who suffered as much as anyone.

My argument is your attempt to monopolize the suffering to justify willingness to smear one set of victims while demonizing the same smear when, and I agree wrongly, to another set.

My entire argument on this particular thread, mishei, is simple: Practice what you preach.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 February 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The point you seem to be missing, on your own high horse, is that there were many victims of nazi persecution including the left. Including homosexuals who suffered as much as anyone.
Let me now show the board how much of a lie this really is.

Here is what I posted about the others who suffered greatly:


quote:
While not all victims of Nazis were Jews all Jews were victims. Wing, many suffered and were killed for their beliefs but once again only Jews and Romani were slated for extinction.

Here is another quote of mine where I acknowledge the suffering of others:

quote:
Because, ]while leftits suffered terribly under nazism, Only Jews and Romani were actually slated for extinction. The vileness of turning that on its head is ...well need i say? [/QUOTE

So you see Wing, you are wrong when you claimed that I did not recognize that there were many other victims of Nazi persecution (Wing:[QUOTE] The point you seem to be missing, on your own high horse, is that there were many victims of nazi persecution


)...weren't you?

And while i have never nor would I ever diminish others who suffered under the yoke and evil of nazism, all i have ever said here is that only the Jews and the Roma were chosen for extermination.

I will put it down to the fact that you are having a bad day.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 February 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is what you said in response to Lagata, mishei:

quote:
And Lagatta, the comparision of Israel etc to Nazis is far far different and more offensive ,IMHO, than allegations made about certain segments of the left engaging in antisemitic rhetoric. One may be done inadvertantly and people like Berger et al are trying as a leftists themselves to deal with it.

Two points:

1) You would have us believe it is more offensive to denigrate one groups suffering than another. Sorry, but I don't buy that.

2) You would have us believe linking leftists to brown shirts and antisemitism was done inadvertently? Sorry, I don't buy that either.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 02 February 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Could you two take this to private messages or another thread? This one began as a discussion about Jeff Halper's critique of the state of Isreal's dealings in the Occupied Territories. Began, though was quickly - and, perhaps, permanently - diverted.

I no longer wonder why I've avoided threads about the Middle East for many months.

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Two points:

1) You would have us believe it is more offensive to denigrate one groups suffering than another. Sorry, but I don't buy that.

2) You would have us believe linking leftists to brown shirts and antisemitism was done inadvertently? Sorry, I don't buy that either.


No I would have you believe that Jews have been a persecuted minority for eons. Jews fit the definition under Canadian law of an "identifiable group" identified by race, creed colour, nationality or sexual orientation. Where in this definition does the left fit ESPECIALLY as a "persecuted" minority? And for the last time (either you are dense or you are just purposefully ignoring all my posts) I have never denigrated anyone elses suffering. I proved it beyond any doubt in my last post but you dont care...nope...you just go on your merry way lieing about me.

Secondly I never asked you to buy anything.

Thirdly my onl point has been consistant here and it was a historical one. The two points you note here have nothing whatsoever to do with your worng understanding of the Holocaust.

This will be my last post about this. I am prpared to discuss this in PMs as long as others do as well.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 February 2003 06:45 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All Mycroft and I have said is that HISTORICALLY, according to every reputable historian, the Final Solution pertained to Jews and Roma.

But, and this is often missed, one of the chief crimes of the Jews, according to Hitler, was their association with Bolshevism and socialism and the threat to Aryan-Germany. More or less in the same sweeping, unsubstantiated manner of slander that is now being used to associate 'the Left' with the 'Arab' threats to Jewish-Israel.

How sweet...

Ooops! Did I step in it again?

Writer:

Sorry part of the strategy is to keep people away from the threads that focus on Israel. I mean isn't that how this started with a clear call for Mr. Halper's piece not to be posted, respectfully of course.

quote:
I respecr Mr. Halper's commitment to this cause.

I also wish to point out that Babble is flooded with these type of articles obviously trying to make a point and create a negative image of Israel. In some cases the criticism is warranted.


So Mr. halper can be respected for his commitment, but we are not?

Perhaps you should come more often, qe had quite a good one going about violence and the Intifada. You might want to check it out. I posted the Halper piece because I thought it was astute, not that I thought it needed much commentary. He is right, and that is all.

If Mishei had any legitimate grounds to reject the article obvious truths he would have done so long ago.

What do you think?

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 07:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry part of the strategy is to keep people away from the threads that focus on Israel. I mean isn't that how this started with a clear call for Mr. Halper's piece not to be posted, respectfully of course.
A clear call huh?

No untrue, and you wonder why I have called some people here liars


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 February 2003 07:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And for the last time (either you are dense or you are just purposefully ignoring all my posts) I have never denigrated anyone elses suffering.
You denigrate the suffering of others every single time you seek to link the left with antisemitism and now brownshirts.

It is that you don't see it that is so pathetic.

Yet, I was able to see your point when you made the very same argument.

And then you play games with semantics.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 February 2003 07:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right. Either we get back to the article or I close the thread. I agree with writer - this whole thing is getting really old. If you want to have this whole he-said-no-he-said thing, take it up in rabble reactions, or start a new thread to talk about it. I'm tired of all the threads in this forum turning into meta-discussions about who posted what where and why.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 02 February 2003 07:42 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of calling people liars, I had a great post on this that went into the void when Michelle had to close the thread.

Now, Mishei, you may recall that you have been fairly free with the accuastion of lying yourself, when you attempted to slander me by alleging that my comments on LaRouche made me a LaRouchite. I then challenged you to call me a liar to my face and you obfuscated, averred, and finally chose to back down.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 February 2003 08:00 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you close the thread, the person who posted the second post to this thread will achieve the intended goal of that post.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 February 2003 08:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That goal already appears to have been reached, Moredreads.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 February 2003 08:14 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True. But I didn't actually think that there would be much debate about it, as it is so obviously on the money. Hence the digression into pointless back and forth about unrelated issues

I am pleased that it has persisted at the top of the Middle East section for the day, as Halper is a talented and funny writer. This is the case even though some who have suggested that they 'respect'Mr. Halper, has as yet to dignify his perspective with an actual response to its substance.

Oh well. Little victories.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 02 February 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, I beg you to put this thread out of its misery. And for those who feel that Mishei takes over threads and twists them to his purposes ... STOP RESPONDING. The back-and-forth mud slinging does no justice to the issues at hand, and everyone's positions and jousting tricks are now exhaustingly well established. It's too easy to blame Mishei for all of this. It wouldn't happen if you didn't play along.
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 02 February 2003 09:46 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Words of wisdom. I shall try to heed them.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 February 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes writer, but there is also the possibility of just posting around such debates, if there is something good you want to say. No need to give up and close a thread because a couple of people get out of hand. Hey! Just don't read it and don't let it upset you. It's not pretty but hopefully, if something good gets going the others will get the message and start talking about substance issues.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
rbil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 582

posted 02 February 2003 10:08 PM      Profile for rbil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you know what I feel so sad about when it comes to these arguments is the lack of recognition the left played in fighting Nazism and fascism in Europe. The assholes in the western "democracies" cuddled up to Hitler. Here in Canada the Mac-Paps were attacked by the Canadian government for wanting to go and fight the first anti-fascist battles that took place in the Spanish civil war. The communists of the USSR made the greatest sacrifices in fighting the Nazis and were responsible for bringing down the Nazi regime and liberating many of the Nazi death camps. The Communist Parties of Europe lead and organized the underground movements of the German occupied countries of Europe. If anything, there were no more heroic fighters against the Nazis than the left. That is the history folks, like it or not. I'm happy to say, I knew some of these individuals who went to fight the fascists BEFORE it was the popular thing to do in this country. These were great men. The same who built the industrial unions in this country. The same who organized things like the On To Ottawa Trek. The same who struggled all their fucking lives for a better more decent Canada and world.

Now the left is being accused of being anti-semitic. This is pure unadulterated bullshit of the right-wing. The left sees the injustices being carried out in the middle east. It sees the right-wing fascist policies of the likes of Sharon and it will, as it has always done, fight against these injustices. Just as it will fight against the imperialist drives of the right-wing war machine in the U.S. But through all these battles, it has ALWAYS differentiated between these right-wing leaders with their corporate agendas and the people of their countries. It looks upon the struggles as CLASS STRUGGLES where there is no room for racism or bigotry because that only divides the working class. To label the left as anti-semitic is plain bullshit and tries to turn history on its head.

I think if we all keep our eye on the ball and realize who our class enemy is, we will not find ourselves caught up in arguing amongst ourselves. It doesn't do us any good.

If there are agent provocateurs amongst us, looking to divide us, the best thing we can do is to try and ignore them. If we don't we witness what we see here ... a thread that goes off course and disintegrates into shallow and wasteful arguments.


From: IRC: irc.bcwireless.net JOIN: #linuxtalk | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 02 February 2003 10:20 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta has started a Stalingrad thread today, (in Ideas) as this it is the 60th Anniversary. Perhaps today we could remember all those who were gound down in that miserable wat.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 February 2003 11:03 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If there are agent provocateurs amongst us, looking to divide us, the best thing we can do is to try and ignore them. If we don't we witness what we see here ... a thread that goes off course and disintegrates into shallow and wasteful arguments.

Sometimes the provocation is too much, but I will do my best.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 02 February 2003 11:08 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But, and this is often missed, one of the chief crimes of the Jews, according to Hitler, was their association with Bolshevism and socialism and the threat to Aryan-Germany.

Indeed, Hitler's principal conflict was against "Judeo-Bolshevism" which he saw as a vast Jewish/Communist conspiracy (Jews and Communists being interchangable).

I strongly suggest people read Ian Kershaw's two volume Hitler biography.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 02 February 2003 11:11 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Back to the Middle East, I've heard it argued that Hamas was actually founded with assistance by the Israeli secret service in the hopes of splitting the Palestinian movement led by Arafat, a movement which was then largely secular. As with many plans that are too clever for their own good (eg the US helping found the Mujahadeen and Bin Laden's movement) it went horribly awry.

Anyone have any knowledge about this or anything to back it up?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 February 2003 11:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was a fellow named goodgoditsnottrue here who posted extensively on this including links and some pretty damn good evidence. I don't think anyone seriously denies it now. But if you do a babble search on his name I am sure you can find his posts.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 02 February 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought you can only do this by poster number?
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 February 2003 11:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope. You can search any six ways to Sunday.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 03 February 2003 03:55 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas history tied to Israel
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 03 February 2003 09:36 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, where are you, GGINT ?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 03 February 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Margaret Wente can't bring herself to make these people look good.

That's saying something. Feh.

[ 03 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged

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