babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » brown-green-red alliance

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: brown-green-red alliance
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 09:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know how difficult it is for many to read these articles and I know some feel I post these for reasons other than discussion and debate.

However when an intellectual such as Alain Finkielkraut claims that "anti-Semitic discourse was taking root in the anti-globalization movement and within left-wing intellectual circles.", I for one believe it is worth noting.


JTA


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a bunch of crap. A total smear job. Again with the opposition to Israel's policies equals anti-semitism garbage, now with anti-war and anti-globalization thrown into the pot. Joe McCarthy would be proud. And I guess that means I'm Adolf Hitler.

And how do they know that the clown's views are "widely held in the Jewish community." Any scientific evidence to back that up.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 10:28 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't we speak about the real alliance taking shape. The alliance between capitalists, zionists, and imperilaists? The new Egyptians.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Mishei, this is utter bullshit. The LCR was long just about as "Jewish" an organisation as Hadassah - there was a long-standing joke about the only reason the Central Committee meetings weren't in Yiddish was that Daniel Bensaïd is Sephardic. And you must remember "We are all German Jews" in May 1968 and Daniel Cohn-Bendit, now a leader of the French Greens!

Finkelkraut, along with the obnoxiously preening Bernard-Henri Lévy, were former Maoists who pompously referred to themselves as "New Philosophers" when they turned their coats.

It is a hideous insult to anti-fascists of long-standing, many of them Jewish, to insinuate that they are in any way anti-semitic because they disagree with the actions of the Israeli government. Cukierman did nothing to speak out against the violent actions of the Jewish Defence League and Betar, who have issued death threats against people who disagree with them, including the above political parties and the leader of the French Jewish Peace Union, and have roughed people up at demonstrations.

Some people (though no proof of this so far) think the Kahanites could also be behind the stabbing of the young rabbi who had been instrumental in advocating a peaceful and just solution in the Middle East and dialogue among all faith and ethnic communities. (I posted that story a while back with details for babblers to extend their sympathy and well-wishes).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 01 February 2003 10:56 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To claim the existence of a "brown-red-green alliance" requires showing more than similarity in political views. (Of course, the only real similarity, even of view, has to do with Israeli policies, and there the "browns", ie. fascists come to their conclusions on unacceptable, and enitely different bases than do the others.)

But what about the word "alliance"?? If I claim that Israel is "allied" with North Korea, may I simply rest that on the idea that they both have nuclear weapons programmes? Or does intellectual coherence require that I establish, further, that they are in communication and are trying to co-ordinate their strategies?

This, of course, cannot be demonstrated, since it is false. Same in the case of the "brown-red-green "alliance". This actually reminds me of Stalin's willingness to toss in Trotsky as a co-conspirator with Hitler. Didn't they both oppose Stalin's policies?

This is the same kind of thinking which equates George Bush and Hitler. "They both want to invade countries, therefore they are the same."


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, there is another thread linking the Bush family with Nazi Germany and in particular, IG Farben. The Bush family was convicted of trading with the enemy. Imagine that. And Shaeon is a close ally of Bush. And so is Blair. And the labour party, we will remember, were appeasers.

So therefore, Israel, Britain and the US are led by the political descendents of Nazi Germany. I always suspected.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Linking the Bushies with Nazi Germany, and remembering the strong sympathies by many in the ruling class in the US, Great Britain and elsewhere with Hitler, is not the same as saying they are "Hitlerite".

Certain far-right dictatorships, especially in Paraguay and Argentina, did have direct filiations with Nazism and Nazi exiles. Barbie acted as a "torture adviser" to several Latin American regimes before he was tried in France by those "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" (GRRRRR).

Cukierman, meanwhile, deserves a good kick in the tuchis.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 February 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you seem to have a habit of posting news articles that make some rather strong accusations.

I'm starting to think that, like Sarcasmobri, you're crying wolf too often and as a result, if one day you warn of a real threat, you'll be brushed off because you misused the natural tendency of people on the left to want to be nonprejudiced.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 February 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, Mishei, I read the article, and frankly, no I DON'T have to respect what it says because of who wrote it. I agree with most of the responses above - this article is the worst kind of guilt-by-association.

What a load.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cukierman did nothing to speak out against the violent actions of the Jewish Defence League and Betar, who have issued death threats against people who disagree with them, including the above political parties and the leader of the French Jewish Peace Union, and have roughed people up at demonstrations.

On this we agree. He should speak out forcefully.

I believe that Cukierman went overbaord in some of his criticisms, however, it remains part of a mindset and pattern where some Jewish Leftists in every part of the globe, has a dark brooding sense that there is a thread of antisemitism amongst the left.

We should not simply poo-poo it or ridicule those who risk much by opening this issue up. They are verbalizing their concerns and deserve to be listened to and engaged respectfully. Those who immediatley dismiss their concerns with namecalling only add to this problem.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then Farakhan, et al, should also have their concerns treated with the same respect.

As someone who opposes the actions of the Israeli, government, opposes the war against Iraq, and opposes "globalization," I take the comments personally.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 February 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come on, Mishei. How can you say we're just namecalling? That's baloney. We read the article and we disagree with it, for the reasons we're giving. You're making it so that everyone who responds has to respond positively or else you claim they're "dismissing" it.

Yeah, we're dismissing it. After having read it, found flaws in the argument, stated those flaws as we see them, and justified our dismissal of the argument.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then Farakhan, et al, should also have their concerns treated with the same respect.
Comparing mainstream Jewish leaders with ugly racists like Farakhan is NAMECALLING.

quote:
Why don't we speak about the real alliance taking shape. The alliance between capitalists, zionists, and imperilaists? The new Egyptians.
This too is a type of namecalling.

quote:
Joe McCarthy would be proud
more namecalling

-------------------------------------------------

quote:
Mishei, you seem to have a habit of posting news articles that make some rather strong accusations.

Look, as I stated I know that many of you here get you backs up when I post these articles. But you cannot live in a bubble. This is what is being felt in many parts of the Jewish community right around the world. If you dont want to know about it tell me so but at least give me a good reason other than you just want to wear blinders.

The world is a real thing and Jews are reacting all over the world. Ignore it if you will, better IMHO to deal with it respectfully. Disagree, comment critisize but do so in a manner that shows you at least understand what is going on in parts of the Jewish world outside of babble.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 01 February 2003 02:34 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Speaking of a “brown-green-red alliance,” Cukierman warned of the danger faced by Jews from the alliance, which he described as “anti-globalization, anti-capitalist, anti-American and anti-Zionist.”


That's pretty much all I need to read to know that Cukierman is full of it (or of himself). anti-globalization does not even necessarily equate with anti-capitalist, let alone anti-American or anti-Zionist. And news flash here folks, people who don't agree with the warped Zionist vision of Sharon aren't automatically anti-semites.

quote:
The Green Party candidate in last year’s presidential election, Noel Mamère, criticized Cukierman’s remarks, saying that “just because one attacks Ariel Sharon’s settlement and humiliation policies does not mean that one is anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli.”


What does Cukierman hope to acheive? We already know the views of Le Pen and his pals. Does Cukierman want to outrage the entire political spectrum of France and turn them against Israel? Not a smart speech, by any stretch of the imagination. Someone should slip him a copy of Dale Carnegie's book.

quote:
However, Cukierman’s views are widely held in the Jewish community, which believes that the left has not done enough to deal with anti-Semitism.

Leading Jewish intellectual Alain Finkielkraut wrote recently that anti-Semitic discourse was taking root in the anti-globalization movement and within left-wing intellectual circles.


Bullshit. Two people does not make this a widely-held view. I'd like to see a poll before I believe this assertion.

This is just another shameless attempt (this time by Cukierman) to shut down legitimate criticism of Israel by painting all critics with the same anti-semitic brush. *wolf*


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is particularly serious in that there is a REAL anti-Jewish threat in France - first of all Jean-Marie Le Pen and associated boneheads, revisionists and the rest of that poisonous stew (they hate Arabs just as much) and a much sadder threat from marginalised Maghrebian youth in housing estates who haven't got a hell of a lot of political sophistication and associate "the Jews" (often their neighbours, and often from the same towns in Algeria) with Israel.

One of my best friends, who is Jewish, was threatened by a group of the latter in the métro this past summer. Do you think I am unconcerned about him?

Anti-racists have been fighting these attacks, Holocaust revisionism, and the downplaying of the role played by French collaborators, not just for years but for decades.

Hence it is essential to have an intelligent strategy - fight fascists head-on, but also fight all forms of racism and break down the poisonous two-scorpions-in-a-jar bickering between Arabs and Jews in France while Le Pen and his ilk look on in glee.

Cukierman is indeed a mainstream community leader and not a fanatic like Farrakhan. For that reason he should be ashamed of himself. I wrote him a letter - sure wouldn't bother writing to Farrakhan or Jean-Marie Le Pen.

I'm still trying to imagine Daniel Cohn-Bendit (Green) and Alain Krivine (LCR) as anti-semites...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Comparing mainstream Jewish leaders with ugly racists like Farakhan is NAMECALLING
Many of the Zionists you place here are reacists like FARAKHAN. They are resorting to NAMECALLING in order to avoid addressing the very real ctriticism of racist Israeli policy. Yes, RACIST. That is what Israeli policy in the West Bank is. That is the way the west and the zionist lobby treats the problem.

And maybe if the ZIONISTS don't like the NAMECALLING, maybe they ought to stop it.

The left isn't racist. The Zionists are. No more or less than the Boers.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 01 February 2003 04:00 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However when an intellectual such as Alain Finkielkraut claims...

Appeal to Authority. This argument has already been discredited a hundred times over. You're not listening.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well Mishei, for someone to equate certain positions that I hold with a "brown shirt" is name calling in my book. It is as if someone called me a "kike." Just because the person who said it happens to be Jewish doesn't make it right or make the impact any less.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 February 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is revolting. And the Trots are right. This is "intellectual terrorism that hides state terrorism." Bang. On.

Mishei, if you are endorsing this filthy slur -- "brown-green-red" -- then you have attacked me personally.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The left isn't racist. The Zionists are. No more or less than the Boers.


Josh, and the BS above from Wing is not namecalling? The left (at least parts of it) is racist and antisemitic just as some Zionists can be racist. But to label the Zionist movement racist is to expose an ignorance of history and politics so vast as to be inexplicable. Wing, go back to school!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 04:30 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How is it name-calling on my part to describe something accurately? Was it not a smear? If not, defend the assertions.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 February 2003 04:33 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The title of this thread is making me physically ill.

What's next? Oh, hell, I can't even type what I think would be the equivalents -- but this has to stop. The article is not that terrible, because it includes some real reporting -- but the expression is sickening, vile, evil.

Mishei, if you have an ounce of decency, you will revise the title of this thread. If you don't, you appear to be endorsing that kind of smeary thought, and I shall protest the defilement of the board.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It should at least contain a question mark.

I have read other things by the Greens, the LCR and the UJFP (Union juive française pour la paix), and reports from www.politis.fr and the anti-fascist organisation www.raslfront.org (or is it raslfront.fr ?) as well as Le Monde and Le Nouvel observateur. I won't post them here, any other francophone babblers can do a google search or look up the sites.

Nothing against transmitting the article, but Cukierman's position is untenable, and back-stabbing against people who have, whatever their other disagreements with him and each other, been militant anti-fascists and anti-racists for decades.

And Finkielkraut is a pompous ass, an intellectual prima donna. Not the first time he has proven it.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, if you are endorsing this filthy slur -- "brown-green-red" -- then you have attacked me personally.


Skdadl, i was clear as to why I posted this and noted that I felt Cukierman went overboard. That notwithstanding please read the thread in future so as to not imply my motives.

And please stop with "well you have posted this before etc etc...". I told you before, there is a prevailing feeling out there (you all disagree so be it...you can be wrong you know)amongst many Jews and they have been named here (and you have all basically attacked them for their feelings)that some of the rhetoric emenating from parts of the left touches on antisemitism.

Here Alain Finkielraut (and he was my main reason for posting this piece) another person associated with the left and a Jewish intellectual has made the same charge. So as usual you just blatantly dismiss him as you have:

Elie Wiesel
Jeff Rose
Philip Berger
Bob Rae
Thomas Friedman
Clay Ruby
Ken Stern
Ernie Lightman
Dennis McDermott
Todd Gitlin
Oriana Fallaci
Lawrence Summers
Vivienne Porzsolt

Amongst many others:

And speaking of Ms. Porzsolt, while I do not agree with all of her conclusions, many of you may find this article of interst. It comes from a decidedly leftist perspective but puts a focus on the issue of antisemitism and anti-zionism which I have frankly not yet seen;


Greenleft


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 February 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Mishei, I can tell you that "there is a prevailing feeling" in here that you waltz about pretending that you're not slandering everyone on the left ... while slandering everyone on the left!

So isn't that great! We now have competing "prevailing feelings."

This is such shit. "Prevailing feelings" is a way to destroy people for sheerly political reasons. It is a way to stir up superstition and irrational paranoia.

Shame, Mishei. Shame.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you remind me of Tricky Dick Nixon who used to say, "Some may call my opponent a Communist, but not me." This was not some general claim, but a specific accusation. Do you agree with it or not? And don't throw Todd Gitlin's name in there. He would revolt at the smear made by the authour of your original post.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, really? Perhaps then you missed this interesting piece in MotherJones by Gitlin:

MotherJones


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read that when it came out. And I generally don't have a problem with it. He was condemning specific instances which I condemn as well. But he didn't lump all opponents of Israel's policies and anti-globalization supporters with "brown shirts." Nor, I am confident, would he support such an obvious smear, as has occurred here.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 February 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't want to hurt josh's feelings, as I once before hurt the feelings of my good friend Whazzup?, by remarking immediately after his post that I thought Todd Gitlin was a limp American liberal ...

But I've changed my mind. I think Todd Gitlin is a limp American liberal. Worse, he's one of those male U.S. journalists who took from the New Journalism of the sixties the worst and misread the best. He is an American type, in my view. Sorry, josh.

Mind you, Gitlin obviously has to deal with a culture that has long since passed the baroque and is heading straight for rococo.

I live in Canada. I feel for intelligent Americans, I feel for them a lot. They are a tragic people. But I have another battle I must be getting on with.

And Mishei: what josh said about Tricky Dick.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tricky Dick huh? And that's not namecalling? Over and over you insist that you don't namecall...and yet you do? I don't mind..sorta use to it here. Just admit you do so and stop pretending you dont.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 05:15 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know what, Mishei? No one is simply dismissing these people. If we were simply dismissing them, we wouldn't bother to read and comment on their articles.

But even intellectuals can commit this sort of emotional blackmail and intellectual dishonesty. And many do.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, if you don't want to be described accurately, stop engaging in smear tactics.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 February 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is a moot point, and completely unrefuted, that Richard Nixon was a slime of the highest order.

It's not namecalling when it's true. It's just stating a fact bluntly.

Mishei, the notion of a "red-green-brown" alliance doesn't make me sick like skdadl; rather, it makes me laugh uproariously at the notion.

I laugh uproariously because the only functioning "red-brown" alliance are the whacko groups in Russia that manage to combine the worst of Naziism with the worst of Communism - they bash Jews and they hold up Stalin as an idol.

Everywhere else I think you will find that as much as you try to search and dig and prod and poke, that no leftist out there worth his or her salt takes any aspect of anti-Semitic "doctrine" seriously.

*walks off, guffawing again*


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Porzsolt article is very interesting. Of course there can be anti-semitism on the left - remember the thread some time back about the NDP being racist? Wanting to be anti-racist and fighting racism actively don't necessarily extirpate all racist feelings; the same applies far more to sexism.

A couple of quote from her article (I'll try to keep them short - hate posts full of quotes)

---------------

"First, Jews are said to be a mere persecuted religious community. This view is so prevalent amongst anti-Zionists that I have heard surprise expressed that someone who was not religious should identify as Jewish! We are told there is no such thing as a Jewish people. I am not going to get into the minefield of the definition of a Jew -- only orthodox Jews and anti-Semites have no problem with this! Suffice it is to say that through whatever amalgam of race, religion, class and ethnicity, there has been historically formed a group which through whatever divisions of nation and culture, race and language, shares a sense of identity. Anti-Semitism has been a major factor in this development."

----------------------

I don't know WHO, of the people Cukierman took to task in France, would have any quibble with the above. I know both Cohn-Bendit and Krivine (not intimitely, but have met both several times at conferences). Both are atheists, non-kosher, and yet certainly consider themselves to be Jews - and I would agree, precisely because of anti-Semitism.
Remember, Cohn-Bendit is the fellow De Gaulle attacked at a "German Jew" during May 1968 - after which there was an outcry of "We are all German Jews"! And Krivine (and his twin) were born in occupied France in 1941.

I don't know many other people, Zionist, anti-Zionist or in-between who share her position on who is Jewish. It is clear that for a Nazi anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent is a Jew, whatever the person's cultural or religious allegiances. Not even sure most orthodox would call non-practising or converted Jews non-Jews either, but rather folks who have strayed from the fold. Some ultra-orthodox including the Lubavitch make a point of trying to welcome them back...

-------------------------

"Secondly, the ferociousness and specificity of the Holocaust together with its precedents in the 19th and early 20th centuries is denied, diminished or trivialised as well as the failure of so many countries to provide a refuge. While this was a European phenomenon, as Malloy and Lorimer point out, had Hitler realised his ambitions, Jews worldwide would have been implicated. It cannot be denied that the existence of a nation state would have provided a better, while not absolute, protection than none. Of course, worldwide mobilisation by Jews and non-Jews alike would have been better still and a good deal more reliable a protection than an enclave operating as an expanded ghetto."

---------------------

Thorougly agree. For that reason the analogy with the Boers is inadequate - virtually nobody in the Netherlands or other Dutch people supported Botha. The horror of the Holocaust makes it hard for many otherwise progressive Jews to criticise Sharon, out of fear, and empathy for Israelis. It also is the reason accusations of "anti-semitism" are so searing and hurtful for committed leftists, whatever their background.

I still think the only way to fight racism is militant internationalism, but we can only agree to disagree about that.

As for Finkielkraut and ESPECIALLY Fallaci, they used to be leftists - Fallaci especially has been a potty-mouth of racist hatred against Muslim immigrants in recent years, in terms that would not be out of line in Mein Kampf or "The International Jew".

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 February 2003 05:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Tricky Dick huh? And that's not namecalling?

Ridiculous! Josh wasn't "calling" you Tricky Dick - he was comparing your debating tactics to those of Nixon, and he even explained fully how your tactic compares. Perfectly valid.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 February 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even intellectuals can be dishonest???

American lefty intellectuals for the last several generations have had two choices: become an outlaw, or turn evangelical.

No, the outlaws didn't all go to jail -- although some did, for no other reason than their refusal of sentimental overgeneralizing bigoted nonsense.

But the Great Awakenings! Man oh man, is it not difficult for some Americans to resist Seeing the Light! To resist all the confessions, conversions, recantations; to resist joining up with the great big Disney road-show? Of course it is difficult! It takes discipline and courage to resist the Greatest Show on Earth!

If it weren't so infuriating, it would be boring. If it didn't threaten the lives of so many other human beings, it would be laughable. It is absurd.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Even intellectuals can be dishonest???

Yeah, I know. But Mishei was holding up these people's credentials as "intellectuals" as evidence that they are right...


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 February 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly, Smith. And that's what really makes me nuts. "It's true because these authorities on the subject say it's true." Bullshit. I don't accept knowledge based on authority. You want to convince me, then you'd better have a good argument - I don't care if you're Jesus Herbert Walker Christ.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 February 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Och, this has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

It has to do with who can get the press in bleeding North America, and how.

It is so disgusting. So so disgusting.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 05:37 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But to label the Zionist movement racist is to expose an ignorance of history and politics so vast as to be inexplicable. Wing, go back to school!!

School would be preferable to your propagation of the big lie.

You have been posting these zionist lobby articles for far too long Mishei. You say you are not smearing the entire left when you are. And even now the environmentalists. And attempting to lump us all in with some of the most despicable people on earth. In the mean time, you support and defend a government engaged, daily, in atrocities. And after smearing everyone here as a brown shirt you moan about name calling.

If you can't take it, don't dish it. Personally, I have had as mush of your smear tactics as I can take. I don't know a lot about zionism. But I know racism when I see it and Israel is a racist state.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I, too, am sick of the argument that boils down to "Horrible things were done to us, so now we can do whatever we want."

No. All Zionism is not racist. But some of it sure as hell is. If you don't want to make a distinction between different forms of Zionism, fine. But I do. And I think most of the original Jewish Zionists would be horrified at what Israel has become.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 05:53 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said, smith, I really don't know a whole lot about zionism. But what I do know is mishei is on a campaign to smear the entire left including the anti-globalization movement and even environmentalists as antisemetic racists.

Gee, whose agenda does this fit? Oh, global capitalism maybe? Zionism, from what I can tell, has sold its soul for US arms and cash. Israel is an apartheid state. A racist state.

And if mishei can smear an entire movement, so can I.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think the origins of Zionism are racist either. I'd be inclined to think its weak point lies in the identification of the Jewish people, or nation, with a State. Herzl was an Austro-Hungarian, from one of the most multicultural societies ever. Zionism has a certain striving for purity that I am very suspicious of, even among the oppressed - and I live in Québec, we have a huge dose of ethnic nationalism based on oppression here. One can say conversely that extreme internationalist socialists such as Rosa L played down the importance of the national question and the SPECIFIC response to national oppression (be it Polish or Jewish). The Bund had a most original response to this question. Needless to say, all of the above currents were pretty much murdered by the Nazis.

And I think Anglo-American imperialism preferred to send the Jews in DP camps to Palestine, where there were just third-world people to push out, rather than take them in. Despite the Holocaust, there was still a lot of anti-semitic sentiment even among the Allies. A friend born in a DP camp (not my friend in Germany, another here in Canada) remembers being put down at a DP when he was little, in Toronto too.

Many progressive, internationalist people supported Zionism because the Jews, as everyone else, had the right to a homeland and been so horribly mistreated. These included Albert Einstein, Primo Levi and Jacobo Timerman (the newspaper editor tortured in Argentina, in the book you must have read: Prisoner without a Name, cell without a number).

However, in 1982, both Primo Levi and Timerman spoke out against the Sabra and Chatila massacres and Sharon's role in them - and nobody could have been more persecuted as Jews than these two gentlemen.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, no, no, WingNut, I didn't mean you...I meant Mishei, saying objecting to Zionism is necessarily racist...

Sorry about that.

If you look at the different parties, you get an idea about the different kinds of Zionism. But only an idea. But you can see, obviously, that it exists in left-wing and right-wing, peaceful and violent, secular and religious forms.

quote:
And I think Anglo-American imperialism preferred to send the Jews in DP camps to Palestine, where there were just third-world people to push out, rather than take them in.

Yup. Which is why there were stirrings of Zionism among British politicians long before it became a Jewish movement. The book I read postulated that it was an attempt on the part of Protestant Brits to feel a connection with a land, feeling themselves lacking in ties to the ancient world, but I think it also had a fair bit to do with wanting to send the Jews elsewhere.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I apologize.

I am very angry with the despicable methods mishei uses to advance the lies he calls a cause and I don't know how to combat them other than to adopt them. But I suppose two despicable acts do not make a right.

I have tried very hard to respect mishei. But this is the last straw for me. I have no respect for him, the organizations he represents, or the state he claims to defend.

Those with true arguments and real defences and authentic causes stick to the facts because in the end all that remains is the evidence and the evidence must stand alone.

Cowards and murderers and intellectual weaklings invoke smears and boogey men for their cause as they are without truth or moral suasion. They must seek to slander their opponents as they can offer no alternative truths.

How does one defend apartheid? The South Africans smeared their opponents as communists because they could offer nothing in the way of a moral defence for their reprehensible mistreatment and denial of basic human rights for black South Africans. In the same boat, the Israelis resort to the smear of antisemitism. Because like the South Africans, they have no moral defence for the reprhensible mistreatment and denial of basic human rights to Palestininians.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 February 2003 06:16 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I quit laughing uproariously long enough to be able to post this, so consider yourself flattered, Mishei.

The whole point about the asininity of doing drive-by smear jobs against leftists who oppose Israeli actions is that by stifling debate - or at least trying to, you're just leaving yourself open for attacks by right-wing groups who would love to make hay about their "Jewish conspiracy" bit.

They always claim Jews control the media, the government, big businesses, and prevent the "true viewpoint" (whatever they think that is) from being heard, and so on. We've all heard the refrain before.

Well, the problem is, you're playing right into their hands by making all sorts of slapdash accusations and the CJC is doing it too by endorsing C-36 and by reflexively terming criticism of Israel and Zionism as anti-Semitic (although in your favor, Mishei, at least you don't blindly call every pro-Zionist a "good Jew"). So's Izzy Asper, by ham-fistedly dictating a pro-Israeli stance in his newspapers. I mean, that last bit was probably like a fucking gold mine for the idiots like Metzger and Zundel and whatnot.

You need leftists as allies and you're shooting yourself in the foot by beating up on us while domestic right-wing groups slip right by under the noses of bigwigs like Bernie Farber.

We realize you support two-state solutions. We realize you condemn the violence on both sides. Et cetera and so on. However, you manage to do yourself a disservice by blindly insisting that the IDF prosecutes its own (which is as laughable as insisting that cops seriously police their own), and that the IDF still respects the "purity of arms" doctrine.

Purity of arms would mean that probably 80% of what the IDF does to Palestinian-Arabs shouldn't happen.

We are not incapable of putting ourselves in the shoes of Israelis, contrary to an accusation once put forth. But has it ever occurred to you that when I put myself in the shoes of Israelis, I don't like what I see? Nor do I like it when I put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian-Arab.

In both cases all I can see is fear, anger and paranoia.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 01 February 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree Lagatta that the origins of Zionism are not racist at all. I have talked about this before in other threads. It was a cry of desparation, and a perfectly understandable one at that. However, in practice, Zionism has proven itself to be problematic. It was perhaps inevitable. A homeland in Europe would have been less problematic. And I think Einstein would have a different take on things if he were alive today.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 February 2003 06:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I'm reminded of an obscure article I once read wherein the Soviet Union decided to create a "Jewish Homeland" somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Russia.

I admit that the motivation was probably incredibly cynical, but Russia's such a vast country that setting up the homeland cost nothing in the way of losing land to anybody else. Apparently those Jews that DID go have made it quite the "going concern", and I'd bet my bottom dollar that if the Soviet Union had been run by anybody other than Stalin (whose policies shaped the USSR for years afterwards), the whole notion of resettling Jews into an economically viable portion of Russia would have worked.

Or hell, the biggest coup of them all that would have bought Stalin all the goodwill he wanted would have been to convert all of East Germany to a Jewish homeland, and giving it to West Germany with the quid pro quo that the place be left as is.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 06:27 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said before, I would like to reclaim the term "pro-Israel."

Like many, I despise Israel's current government. I detest the occupation and the policies that make Arabs into second-class citizens, if they are citizens at all.

That doesn't mean I despise the country itself.

I want Israel to be a light unto nations. I want it to survive, morally and practically. I want it to discontinue this illegal, immoral and financially ruinous occupation, not just for the Palestinians, but for itself. I don't believe the current administration is doing this. And I don't believe it is dealing with the atrocities in good faith.

Why does that make me "anti-Israel"?

And why, when there are still explicit hate groups in Canada, neo-Nazi groups, rock groups singing about the "final genocide," and whatever else, are people like me getting so much damn attention from the CJC and others? Because I don't like what a particular group of Jews is doing?

This is silly.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well now other than the gratuitous insults by Wing who just cannot get over that people (Jews on the left specifically) have feelings on issues and will diagree with him passionately, the rest of the comments here are interesting.

Lagatta, I sincerely appreciate your analysis of the Porzsolt article I posted. I need to do some thinking on your assessment.

Michelle you sre simply playing with words. Josh said that I remind of him of "Tricky Dick Nixon" . Either way you cut the cake that is not a compliment. I said, it doesnt bother me (I have been a lone voice of fairness here for a while so im use to your slings and arrows

) but please stop playing word games and live with the fact that certain people here criticize by using namecalling.

Smith et al, who are so sure Im just "smearing all the left" in some sort of Sharonistic Zionist plot, well what can I say? I already named many leftiists who feel as I do and you just dismiss our feelings with the argument which goes something like this:

I am right and you are wrong.

At least people like Judy Rebick and others acknowledge the feelings of those who confronted antisemitism in parts of the left without being so boorish. Perhaps you can take a page from her book.

And Doc, I doubt if farber is paid to sit around and watch for neo-nazis hate- bands. Surely if he missed it than the same can be said for you and countless other leftists who see themselves as anti-fascists.

Oh BTW Smith I do not hold the credential of "intellectual" as proof of the correctness of an argument. I use it as a descriptive term. That is how many of them are referred to as so don't go snaky on that one. Im sure you can find plenty more to go snaky on me about.

And to come back to my old "buddy" Wing i can take the heat always have here always will. It is you who seems to overreact..then it seems your true colours come out.."Israel is a racist state" huh? Your characterization is despicable and I would have thought beneath you. I was wrong. That said, I reamain civil to you and will respond to your critiques in such a manner no matter what names you choose for me or what you think of me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 01 February 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is so funny. Mishei is demanding that we put ourselves in the shoes of "mainstream Jewish intellectuals" or whatever he likes to call them so that we can see how we are Bad! Bad! and should immediately repent and applaud occupation, home-bulldozing, and smear campaigns. At the same time, Mishei is not willing to put himself in the shoes of those who wish Israel had never been created (for reasons entirely different from European anti-Semitism) because he thinks that they are "beyond the pale." Mishei lives by a rhetorical sword, and what happens to those who live by the sword? And yet he complains. He whines. And he slanders.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 February 2003 06:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle you sre simply playing with words. Josh said that I remind of him of "Tricky Dick Nixon" . Either way you cut the cake that is not a compliment.

Baloney. It doesn't have to be complimentary to be within the bounds of legitimate debate.

Josh said you reminded him ot Tricky Dick Nixon because you used the same rhetorical tactics that Nixon used. There is nothing wrong with drawing attention to that parallel. It's not name-calling or ad hominem if he's attacking the argument, and that's exactly what he was doing. It's all about your argument and your "debating" tactics, not about you personally.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 06:59 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Smith et al, who are so sure Im just "smearing all the left" in some sort of Sharonistic Zionist plot, well what can I say?

Who said anything about a plot? I just think you're being nasty and dishonest.

quote:

I already named many leftiists who feel as I do and you just dismiss our feelings with the argument which goes something like this:

I am right and you are wrong.


Well, I DO think I am a greater expert on my feelings and motivations than you are. So sue me.

quote:

At least people like Judy Rebick and others acknowledge the feelings of those who confronted antisemitism in parts of the left without being so boorish. Perhaps you can take a page from her book.

Perhaps she hasn't had to repeat it quite as often as we have, Mishei.

quote:

And Doc, I doubt if farber is paid to sit around and watch for neo-nazis hate- bands.

No, he's paid to defend racist censorship advocates and spread propaganda. Fair enough.

quote:
Oh BTW Smith I do not hold the credential of "intellectual" as proof of the correctness of an argument. I use it as a descriptive term. That is how many of them are referred to as so don't go snaky on that one. Im sure you can find plenty more to go snaky on me about.

Ah, the rattlesnake calling the cobra snaky...

quote:

"Israel is a racist state" huh?

Yeah. It is. It doesn't have to be, but it is.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 01 February 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Hi lagatta.

I shouldn't be in Middle East threads - only gets you into trouble. What the hell:

In 1982, ex-French PM Mendès-France and the president of the World Jewish Congress Nahum Goldman also opposed Sharon's invasion of Lebanon.

Mendès-France in the 1970s organized secret talks between the PLO and the Israelis.

I can't remember what this is about...Oh, yeah: this Zionism, anti-Zionism, pro-Israel, anti-Israeli stuff.

That rhetoric means nothing as lagatta and josh and others have written. Zionists and anti-Zionists are all over the map. Everyone is caliing everyone else a Nazi and a racist and it's leading nowhere.

Still, enough Jewish people on the Left feel uncomfortable as Rebick and others have written so maybe there is a problem with the rhetoric being used by various people among the Zinoist and the anti-Zionist camps. The only people I will listen to from now on are those who support the Quartet RoadMap (Quartet=UN, Russia, EU plus US which have come up with a pragmatic detailed timetable for creating a Palestinian state - the rest is just empty rhetoric from people who don't want to solve anything anyway, so screw'em)

This makes no sense. But neither does the Middle East, so like whatever, yadda yadda yadda.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 01 February 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(I have been a lone voice of fairness here for a while...

Full of ourselves, aren't we? You've just implied that no-one else on the thread is fair, yet you complain that others are being insulting. You smear everyone else and then claim victim status for yourself.

quote:
I already named many leftiists who feel as I do and you just dismiss our feelings with the argument which goes something like this:

I am right and you are wrong.


No, the argument has been dismissed as fallacious. Appeal to Authority or Appeal to Popularity - take your choice. The fact that you continue to resort to arguments that have been identified as invalid demonstrates that you're not here to discuss issues in good faith. As I said earlier, you're not listening. You stick your fingers in your ears and spout the same propaganda over and over, and then, again, you claim victim status when people become frustrated with it. It's intellectually dishonest.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 01 February 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By "wish it hadn't been created", I was referring to popular sentiment in the Muslim world, the one thing that hasn't really been grasped by Zionists (or there are a number of things they'd have done differently, IMHO).
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bit of thread-drift here, about Kafka and identity:

http://www.upenn.edu/resliv/prp/met/breckman_lecture.html

(Sorry, I'm on a real Mitteleuropa kick these days. I'll find something by Stefan Zweig too).

There are also Jews who, while not necessarily against Zionism per se, feel that agressive "recruiting" has militated against the continued existence of many embattled Jewish communities. Thinking of Yakov Rabkin at the University of Montreal (a prof of mine, orthodox and not particularly leftist). He is deeply sad about the loss of Soviet Jewry.

I have heard similar sentiments from Argentines, who feel that Sharon is taking advantage of the tragic economic circumstances of that breadbasket of the world to empty out the largest and most culturally important Jewish community in Latin America. Which would be a terrible loss.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 07:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, the argument has been dismissed as fallacious. Appeal to Authority or Appeal to Popularity - take your choice. The fact that you continue to resort to arguments that have been identified as invalid demonstrates that you're not here to discuss issues in good faith.
Invalid huh? By who? You? Others on Babble? As wrong as you think they are, they clearly think you are wrong. So who's right?

It's circular you see. You have no greater hold on the truth than do I or those I have named. Posh YOU dismiss it as INVALID so INVALID it must be...that's a laugh...you are as rigid as you claim I am. Even more so.

Michelle, I never said namecalling was outside legitimate debate. I jaut said it was namecalling. God knows it goes on here all the time. And again paint it any rosey colour you want...BTW. it was never a complaint just a statement of fact.

Mimi, yes you are quite right when you state:

quote:
Still, enough Jewish people on the Left feel uncomfortable as Rebick and others have written so maybe there is a problem with the rhetoric being used by various people among the Zinoist and the anti-Zionist camp

I have tried to say this but ofcourse got dumped on en masse. Hopefully you will not come under the same attack as have I.

And finally this "ditty"

quote:
This is so funny. Mishei is demanding that we put ourselves in the shoes of "mainstream Jewish intellectuals" or whatever he likes to call them so that we can see how we are Bad! Bad! and should immediately repent and applaud occupation, home-bulldozing, and smear campaigns. At the same time, Mishei is not willing to put himself in the shoes of those who wish Israel had never been created (for reasons entirely different from European anti-Semitism) because he thinks that they are "beyond the pale." Mishei lives by a rhetorical sword, and what happens to those who live by the sword? And yet he complains. He whines. And he slanders.
Pleras show me where I called you or anyone "BAD,BAD". Please show me where I want you or anyone to "repent...applaud the occupation..." and exactly who have I slandered?

Another device used here often to wrongly abuse my message...putting words in my mouth that I never uttered. Alas I am sure you will find yet more justifications for this action as well.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 07:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mimi, yes you are quite right when you state:

quote: Still, enough Jewish people on the Left feel uncomfortable as Rebick and others have written so maybe there is a problem with the rhetoric being used by various people among the Zinoist and the anti-Zionist camp



This is typical of the nonsense we expect from Mishei.
I read Rebick's article. She said what many have acknowledged here, that there is some antisemitism on the left as there is in every corner of human endeavour.

But she was equally critical of the hurtful games you play, mishei, which is to attempt to draw a line from valid criticism of Israel to antisemitism.

I call you a racist and you get all upset. But you call all of us racists and we are supposed to accept it. I don't think so.

Why not discuss the racism inherent in Israeli politics, mishei? Are you open to that discussion?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 07:44 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Invalid huh? By who? You? Others on Babble? As wrong as you think they are, they clearly think you are wrong. So who's right?

The person with logic - not to mention the facts - on his or her side. Duh.

quote:

You have no greater hold on the truth than do I or those I have named. Posh YOU dismiss it as INVALID so INVALID it must be...that's a laugh...you are as rigid as you claim I am. Even more so.

Well, at least he's willing to consider the arguments as arguments, not as gospel. Which I cannot say about you.

"Invalid" is a technical term in logic.

"If A then B" does not mean "if B then A."

quote:

I have tried to say this but ofcourse got dumped on en masse. Hopefully you will not come under the same attack as have I.

No, you have tried to say that their discomfort with some of the rhetoric being used indicates that all we leftists who criticise the occupation need to "look into our hearts" or whatever else and chase out the anti-Semitism therein. Mimi observes their discomfort; you expect us to blame it on ourselves. Mimi suggests that perhaps we should be careful about the rhetoric we use in criticism; you suggest that we shouldn't criticise.

quote:

Please show me where I want you or anyone to "repent...applaud the occupation..."

Isn't that basically what "pro-Israel" means in your book? When was the last time you applauded anyone who denounced the occupation? Not just who said "I don't agree with it" and moved on to more justifications, but who denounced it?

Your martyr act is getting tired again.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 February 2003 07:49 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had posted this Guardian-Observer article by Mark Leonard, that takes up many of the same points as Judy's, a few days ago but no bites.

Perhaps because I posted it in "ideas" rather than the "Middle East", as it did not concern Israel/Palestine per se so much as the ties that bind Jews, even non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews, to Israel. Ties made of the memories of genocide.

Mimichkele, I try to avoid Middle East threads too, I couldn't resist this one as it is about France and the "anti-globalisation" movement there and I actually know a lot of the players involved.

http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,877521,00.html


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 01 February 2003 07:52 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Invalid huh? By who? You? Others on Babble? As wrong as you think they are, they clearly think you are wrong. So who's right?

The Logical Fallacies: Index

It's all there, Mishei. Or are the rules of logic not applicable when you're involved?

Considering that you work so hard at using underhanded tactics to deflect criticism of Israel, it forces me to wonder if maybe the actions of the Israeli administration aren't more corrupt and morally bankrupt than I previously thought they were. You may well be shooting yourself in the foot here.

Edited for spelling.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 01 February 2003 07:57 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle you sre simply playing with words. Josh said that I remind of him of "Tricky Dick Nixon" . Either way you cut the cake that is not a compliment. I said, it doesnt bother me (I have been a lone voice of fairness here for a while so im use to your slings and arrows) but please stop playing word games and live with the fact that certain people here criticize by using namecalling.


At the risk of only using clichés in this thread:

Pot. Kettle. Black


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 February 2003 08:26 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A load that is loaded with lots of libel.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 01 February 2003 09:38 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Comparing mainstream Jewish leaders with ugly racists like Farakhan is NAMECALLING.

Twenty years ago Sharon was considered to be on the far right of Israeli politics. Now he's mainstream.

And he's not exactly an anti-racist, Mishei.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, see, Mycroft, if you like Jewish people, you're not a racist. Only anti-Semites are racists. Others are merely exercising their right to free speech.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 01 February 2003 10:30 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't I recently read a thread where the person who posted this piece of slander was warned that posing these kinds of ridiclous conspiracy theories as credible might actually undermined the left's traditional anti-racist alliance with the Jewish community, while ditracting attention away from the rise of neo-facist anti-semites?

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 February 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But isn't undermining the left, the only vocal critics of Israel, regardless of the cost or consequences, the point?

Isn't it possible there are some who would rather sleep with pigs than acknowledge the dirt on their hands?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 11:24 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you call all of us racists and we are supposed to accept it.
Let me see if I can be clear: I HAVE NEVER CALLED ANY OF YOU RACISTS. For those who continue to think I do, frankly, that is totally your problem.

However, it quite proves my point of wrongly (and maliciously?...just asking) putting words in my mouth.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 February 2003 11:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My personal opinion is that you imply it when you post newspaper-article URLs that make the claim that criticizing the actions of Israel might be construed as anti-Zionism and therefore anti-Semitic.

It also shows up every time you accuse one of any number of people of "defending suicide bombers" oh, sorry, I meant "defending homicide bombers", which is a load of hogwash. You know it, I know it and I don't know why the hell you keep trying to claim otherwise.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 February 2003 11:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My personal opinion is that you imply it when you post newspaper-article URLs that make the claim that criticizing the actions of Israel might be construed as anti-Zionism and therefore anti-Semitic.
Funny thing about "implication" it usually is in the eye of the beholder. OK you claim I make that implication, and I tell you that is not and never has been my intention. What now? Do you just call me a liar?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 01 February 2003 11:55 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3012

posted 02 February 2003 12:00 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I second that.
From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE] Yes. [/QUOTE I wasn't even asking you. However I am not surprised with your answer which I find personally offensive. You are basically claiming that i am choosing to knowingly lie. You have no proof of such a claim other than your dislike of my position.

I have never asked you to agree with me but I am as much entitled to my personally held beliefs,(even if you think they are BS) as you are to yours. I accept what you say and I believe you believe them, while i passionately disagree with you.

But I would never call you a liar. It is meanspirited, offensive and immature.

Edited to add. And that goes for you too flowers

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 02 February 2003 12:03 AM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
mishei, not only are you a liar, but i believe you are, at least covertly, a racist as well. your record, does after all, stand for itself, right?
From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 02 February 2003 12:05 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Baloney. (To borrow a term from Michelle.)

You post articles that make the same points over and over and over again, and you expect us to believe you're not endorsing those points? And in fact, you claim that you're not?

What am I supposed to call such claims? Creative writing?

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:07 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ahhhfukit, here we go disintegrating into offensive namecalling. I thought this was against Babble policy.

I have said it before and I will say it again..."sticks and stones..."

That said ahhhfukit, if you want to talk offensive the Private email you sent me was so bad and ugly I had to file a formal complaint.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:10 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What am I supposed to call such claims? Creative writing?


Strongly held views. Certainly they are not indications of me calling you or anyone racists. You see me say racist under every bed Smith.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 02 February 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Strongly held views.

Not that strongly held, if they're endorsed one hour and disavowed the next.

quote:
Certainly they are not indications of me calling you or anyone racists.

No, you get your "intellectuals" to do it for you, don't you?

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith, you are making this personal. I would be pleased to discuss this obsession of yours through PMs.

The entire Board need not be bothered with your personal animosity directed towrds me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 02 February 2003 12:15 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whatever, Mishei. *plonk*
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:17 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*plonk* ? I urged you to engage privately to discuss these issues and that is the best you can come up with?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 02 February 2003 12:17 AM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
sticks and stones eh mishei?

things which you are adept at throwing yourself, as seen in numerous thread on this board.

and what is so ugly about my pm? the fact that the truth hurts? i said nothing there that i haven't in public on this board. i believe you are a racist, and i repeat again racist. oh you are not so overt like senator lott tried so hard avoid being, but even covert racism is still racism. your contempt for anyone who holds a view even slightly different from the israeli right wing shines bright and clear, and as surely as i'd condemn the racism of sharon or netanyahu, i condemn yours.


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:20 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What was so ugly was not just the namecalling that childish behaviour I have come to expect from you. The offensive part was your demand that I leave this board because you didnt like my views. I of course would not use the colorful language you engaged to apprise me of your demand but your intolerance took my breath away.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 02 February 2003 12:30 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Smith, you are making this personal. I would be pleased to discuss this obsession of yours through PMs.

I don't think Smith has made it personal. She has reacted to your behaviour on the forum, and I agree with her. You don't have to blatantly call anyone here a racist when you can let your "authorities" do it for you.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 February 2003 12:43 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is truly prescious;

quote:
I don't think Smith has made it personal. She has reacted to your behaviour on the forum, and I agree with her. You don't have to blatantly call anyone here a racist when you can let your "authorities" do it for you.


My "authorities". Now which of my "authorities" have called you racist. You Slim, you personally. Most of these "authorities" were posting their honestly held beliefs. When I posted one (ie Thomas Firedman) well you guys responded with "that's just one lefty type".

When I posted two (Elie Wiesel, the response was "Wisel my God Whats happened to him?"

When I posted another, (Alan Dershowitz) much the same response.

So I posted a whole bunch more just to show you that it wasn't a tiny group but some prominant Jewish lefties all feeling the same way.

And you (not all of you some of you) continually refused to even acknowledge their concerns engaging in hyper-critical comment.These are not "my" authorities, they are honest jews who believe what they feel. You disagree fine but you cannot deny them their feelings or their views. Nor can you deny me mine.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 February 2003 12:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread isn't going to get any better, and it's already at 2 pages. I'm closing it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca