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Author Topic: Pipes speaks Tuesday at York
Mishei
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posted 27 January 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With Daniel Pipes scheduled to speak at York tomorrow it seems that this thread may have closed prematurely.

There was a meeting held today at the CUPE 3093 office at York to plan strategy as well as an earlier meeting at Future Bakery in Toronto. There has been rumours of road blockages and other antics. All this over an academic ?

I am disappointed that CUPE might be involved in trying to skuttle Pipes' talk...shades of the York strike and the infamous CUPE flying squad.

Surely even CUPE would uphold Pipes right to speak..or not?


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darkhorse
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posted 27 January 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There has been rumours of road blockages and other antics. All this over an academic ?

Surprising that you should fall prey to such rumours. Lets at least give them the benefit of the doubt until tomorrow. There will likely be a minor protest, and some strategy of confrontation at his talk, but he's not Netanyahu after all.

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Mishei
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posted 27 January 2003 09:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Darkhorse, I hope you are right. It would be a shame if there was trouble. It would be a real blow to the cause of both academic freedom and free speech.
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Smith
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posted 27 January 2003 09:49 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the other hand, if Pipes ever sees his dreams realised, that will also be a great blow to academic freedom and to free speech.
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Mishei
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posted 27 January 2003 10:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And that is why he should be challenged not stopped
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Smith
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posted 27 January 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did I say he should be stopped?
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Mishei
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posted 27 January 2003 10:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did I say you said that? Why are you so touchy? This whole issue has centered around those (not on Babble necessarily) who want to stop him from speaking. Smith you should do something about this persecution complex....
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josh
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posted 27 January 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope everyone comes out and listens to the racist Pipes. It's appropriate that he will speak on a day when the Israeli public will elect a neo-fascist government.
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Smith
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posted 27 January 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Smith you should do something about this persecution complex....

Bite me, Dr. Phil.

You were just getting more than a bit repetitive and preachy, is all.


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WingNut
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posted 27 January 2003 10:49 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I hope everyone comes out and listens to the racist Pipes. It's appropriate that he will speak on a day when the Israeli public will elect a neo-fascist government.

Will you be there challenging Mishei?

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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 12:07 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh lives in New Jersey.
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WingNut
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posted 28 January 2003 12:40 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmmm. Badly worded. Let me rephrase:

Mishei, will you be there challenging Pipes?


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Flowers By Irene
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posted 28 January 2003 01:06 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, let me count the mischaracterizations

CUPE 3903 (I'm sure its just a typo)

quote:
shades of the York strike and the infamous CUPE flying squad.

Wow, so now you're an expert on York. Whatever. You didn't even know the name of the "student union" until I pointed it out to you. Were you there during the strike? Do you remember that it was admin members assaulting strikers with vehicles (at least two separate incidents where admin members tried to run down picketers), not 'union antics' as you put it. Do you not realize that the local tried to negotiate and were shut out by the admin for over six months before voting to strike? Do you realize that the admin came to the bargaining table a grand total of some 16 days of the 70+ day strike? Do you have any idea of what that strike was about? The extent of rollbacks the admin tried to impose, that the union was asking not for more (beyond inflation/cost of living increases), but rather the SAME contract they had previously? Do you know that a strike this year was avoided because the union doesn't want to stress the students, despite the admin (again) refusing to negotiate?

Oh, but I forget, they (CUPE) must be antisemites, opposing someone the likes of Daniel Pipes....
You are somehow surprised that the flying squad would be opposed to Pipes speaking - wow you must really have a hardon for this guy - CUPE 3903 being the most activist union local in Canada's public sector?

And Smith with a persecution complex? Well, I guess it would take one to know one
were that even a relevant thing to mention.

Ed to fix damn UBB code

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: Flowers By Irene ]


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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 01:51 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Flowers, exactly what drug are you on? I only made mention of CUPE as part of a whole . The antics stem from the rumours about the coalition.

I am fully aware of what the strike was about but my post had more to do with CUPE being involved in an attempt to shut down speech.
What they did during the strike is far differnt. That was a Labour issue in which they had every right to take action (except the questionable stuff that bordered on illegal). And yes, the administration acted quite despicably. So why would CUPE act like management and try to bully the JSF from holding this talk?


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Polunatic
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posted 28 January 2003 02:03 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there? Mishei, will you be there?
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Flowers By Irene
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posted 28 January 2003 02:36 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think maybe my drugs aren't as good yours... PM me, we'll swap dealers, then maybe come to an objective conclusion.

quote:
I only made mention of CUPE as part of a whole .

Oh, really, what 'whole' would that be? Those opposed to Pipes? Those opposed to blacklisting Profs who think for themselves? Those who oppose anti-Arab (or any, for that matter) racism?

quote:
The antics stem from the rumours about the coalition.

Antics? Based on rumours? The coalition? Which coalition? Oh my. So many questions, so little hope of sense being made...

quote:
they had every right to take action (except the questionable stuff that bordered on illegal).

You would be kind enough, no, to point out the specific illegal tactics employed by CUPE 3903, or even just by the flying squad during the strike, and even more how any of these allegations are even relevant to this topic?

quote:
So why would CUPE act like management and try to bully the JSF from holding this talk?

Umm, the local is opposed to Pipes, they want to picket his speech, please show me when & where they have made any attempt to prevent him from appearing? (Even if they did, I wouldn't be opposed, Pipes is anti-academic freedom - something of concern, no, to TAs RAs & GAs?)


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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 07:49 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey! Anyone who supports Israel is A-OK. Right, Mishei?
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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 08:22 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So many questions so little time. The Coalition I referred to was written about in the Globe. It was hastily set up to include members of CUPE at York, MESA (Middle Eastern Students Association) and others. It is called the "Coalition for Academic freedom" and it seems opposed to Pipes speaking at York.

That said, I have always stated here clearly that one can oppose as long as it is done peacefully.Most here agree and we will all wait and hope today that the tactics used by pro-Palestinian protestors at Concordia are not repeated at York.

And NP will you be there? Though I tried, by the time I was able to get to York yesterday to get a ticket they were sold out. I will however be in line if any become available just prior to the talk. I certainly do have some queries I would like to ask Mr. Pipes about.

About CUPE's participation in the protest, since it is a democratically based local can you tell me what the vote was to participate in the protest.


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Smith
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posted 28 January 2003 08:29 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I certainly do have some queries I would like to ask Mr. Pipes about.

Do you want his autograph?


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Michelle
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posted 28 January 2003 08:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now now.
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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith, is it just in your nature to be contrary?
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can I ask why people say that Daniel Pipes is racist ?
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darkhorse
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posted 28 January 2003 10:41 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why Daniel Pipes is a racist:
quote:
"I worry very much from the Jewish point of view that the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews." Daniel Pipes speaking before the convention of the American Jewish Congress, 10/21/2001
Daniel Pipes smears the Muslim community in Denmark:
quote:
DANISH POLITICIANS REFUTE DANIEL PIPES' "FACTS" Elisabeth Arnold and Elsebeth Gerner Nielsen, National Post, 9/6/02

As Danish politicians, we are offended by the way integration problems in Denmark were portrayed by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard and we wish to set the record straight (Muslim Extremism: Denmark's had Enough, Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, Aug. 27).

The authors claim that 40% of Danish welfare expenses are consumed by Muslim immigrants…Muslim immigrants do not receive 40% of those allocations even though they represent a substantial part of the clients. The main reason being: It is hard to compete on a job market not interested in employing immigrants.

The further assumption that more than half of all rapists in Denmark are Muslims is without any basis in fact, as criminal registers do not record religion.


Daniels Pipes suggests "razing" Palestinian villages:
quote:
Re-occupy areas from which gunfire or mortars are shot. Raze the PA's illegal offices in Jerusalem, its security infrastructure and villages from which attacks are launched. Capture or otherwise dispose of the PA leadership. Destroy the PA. Reach separate deals with each Palestinian town or village.read it on Pipe's web site

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 10:50 AM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Darkhorse, where in all that proves that he's a racist ? By the way, I read the article about the Danish politicians and Daniel Pipes responds to everything the say.
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darkhorse
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posted 28 January 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews
Now how is that not racist?

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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 11:07 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CJ, there was one questionable article that Pipes wrote for the National Review in which he refers to "brown-skinned" people in reference to newly arrived Muslim immigrants.

I finally got a copy of that 1990 article and certainly the language was not great. However, Pipes explains the reference as being one in which he is employing sarcasm. He notes that the reference was how "Europeans" view recent Muslim immigrants. He reminds people that he is quite clear that this is not his opinion rather his concern. He also notes that it is only a small proportion of Muslims, (like a small proportion of Jews) who are extremists and they do not reflect Islam in general.

I have much more reading to do on and about Pipes before i make a final judgement.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He is saying that Muslim influence in the States will be bad for the Jews because he believes there is strong anti-semitism in the Muslim community.
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skdadl
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posted 28 January 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you are a piece of work.

When challenged by the obviously knowledgeable Flowers, you said:

quote:
my post had more to do with CUPE being involved in an attempt to shut down speech.

But your opening post says:

quote:
shades of the York strike and the infamous CUPE flying squad.

-- the vague but unquestionably negative loading meant to alarm the uninformed ...

Man, oh man. This is exactly parallel to the fancy footwork you tried over Neil MacDonald's reporting -- "It isn't so much MacDonald" who had you worried ... Have you no shame, Mishei?


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darkhorse
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posted 28 January 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
he believes there is strong anti-semitism in the Muslim community.
Even if that were the case, the assumption that "the Muslim community" are Jew-haters is a racist assumption.

On the other hand there is strong anti-Arab sentiment in American culture and the media.

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think I'd skip Mr. Pipes address, I'm afraid.
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darkhorse
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posted 28 January 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims
and why particularly does Pipes single out these qualities: stature, wealth, civil and voting rights...? It seems he is afraid the Muslim community will develop a voice, empowerment, and some form of meaningful participation in decisions of policy

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God the quote about the affluence and influence of Muslims is the same kind of stuff antisemites have always said about Jews.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 January 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, for a fella who is so strident about anti-Israeli and anti-Judaic (I am using this term to differentiate from the anti-Muslim/Arab comments in the western media) rhetoric, you sure seem to be willing to excuse the egregious and poor behavior of any pro-Israeli individual who makes those kinds of comments.

"Oh, but it was only one article."

"Oh, but he didn't really mean that."

et cetera and blah de freakin' blah.

You're lucky nobody here demands a litmus test of you ever time you open yer mouth, buddy.


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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc read my reply. I did not say what you are inferring.

As for you Skdadl:

quote:
Have you no shame, Mishei?

I have as much shame as do you

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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:25 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about if I told you there is strong anti-jew sentiment in arab culture and media ?
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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Although in general I agree with the right to speak, and protests rather than bans, the question of outright racist speakers makes me very very uneasy, especially when hate speech stands a chance of leading to hate crimes, as is a danger in the post September 11th climate.

Mishei, I'm not saying this to pick on you - our strong disagreement on the Middle East is obvious and you have a right to your opinions. But I think it is a fair question - would you be so pro-active in fighting for the rights of a Holocaust denier/negationist or other active anti-Semite to speak?

In European democracies (for obvious reasons) they have strong laws against folks like Faurisson and David Irving, but the laws aren't nearly as strong in the US or even in Canada. That doesn't make those racist bastards any less of a continued threat, as skinheads and other violent racist groups continue to put their theories into practice.


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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How about if I told you there is strong anti-jew sentiment in arab culture and media ?

How about if I told you there is strong anti-Arab sentiment in Jewish culture and media?

It doesn't get you very far does it?

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 12:31 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads and Cracker Jack:

This "racism among semites" is a tragic development and a recent one.

Jews played a huge role in Arab-Muslim cultures. And though at times Jews faced discrimination as dhimmi (like Arab Christians) especially during periods of religious revivalism, they never faced the same murderous pogroms as in Christian Europe.

I can just see a racist like Jean-Marie Le Pen, who so hates all semites, rubbing his hands in glee.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about if you did tell me that ? We are straying from the topic.
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, you are the topic is Mr. Pipes racism, not racism in the Arab media.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It doesn't get me very far ? What ?
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you been reading the posts between darkhorse and I ?
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 12:36 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those kind of statements are meaningless. I can point to racism in the Arab and Jewish media all day long. My head spins with it in fact.

But to make up grand conspiracy theories, whereby we personify a 'whole' people, as being of one mind, or in collusion, is quite another thing.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads, you're not understanding. Read the posts again.
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found this:
quote:
Even if that were the case, the assumption that "the Muslim community" are Jew-haters is a racist assumption.

As I said:

quote:
But to make up grand conspiracy theories, whereby we personify a 'whole' people, as being of one mind, or in collusion, is quite another thing.

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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DrConway
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posted 28 January 2003 01:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How about if I told you there is strong anti-jew sentiment in arab culture and media ?

No! Really!? Thank you, Captain Obvious!

Now, like the other folk here, I'm gonna ask you what this does to advance the discussion.

Hell, there's anti-Jew sentiment in, well, Russia, for example. That doesn't mean we're gonna go bomb the place.

So why is it that Arabs are singled out as the agents of the "Anti-Jewish Peril"?

Seems to me it's as overblown as the "Yellow Peril" rhetoric of the 1920s and 1930s.

I betcha most Arabs probably don't think about Israel all that much. They have their lives to live, and likely a good chunk of 'em don't even like their leaders or the state-owned press.


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swallow
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posted 28 January 2003 01:38 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that the issue with Pipes is not his racism or lack of same, but also (and from the name "Coalition for Academic Freedom," more importantly) the fact that his organization Campus Watch exists to stamp out freedom of speech and create academic chill. If it was at my university, i'd be trying to keep him out of the Student Union Building, urging professors not to honour him at a special luncheon etc, but defending his right to speak on campus. I'd also be outside at the non-violent protest. Marketplace of ideas and all that.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 01:59 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The reason I said that was because he said there is anti-muslim bias in the US. How does that advance the discussion ? I was gonna call you Captain Obvious, but it's too pathetic to repeat.
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Smith
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posted 28 January 2003 01:59 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims

That is flat-out racist. He is not expressing concern over the growing anti-Semitism in American Muslim communities, or political trends therein; he is troubled by the fact that Muslims - Muslims in general, not extremist or criminal elements - are becoming wealthier and more powerful in legitimate politics.

If I said the increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Jews posed a threat to American Christians, you'd have my head for it, Mishei, and you'd be right.

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith, its the kind of crap you find on hate sites all the time. Against both Jews and Arabs and/or Muslims.
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Polunatic
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posted 28 January 2003 02:40 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So where at York and when is this event exactly?
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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just returned from the Pipes talk. He was dry and the whole event was a non-event. Maybe 100 protestors outside the building ..they were respectful if a bit vocal.

One student was escorted out after he caused a spot of trouble. As he exited he called Pipes "stupid". Thats it folks.

Congrats to York and all the others for upholding academic freedom and free speech.


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ronb
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posted 28 January 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yay. Pipes got to spread his happy message. He must've been in a good mood today. Did he take any questions, or did he just spread his peace and love and run?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 28 January 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't question! Questions are evil!
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Mishei
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posted 28 January 2003 06:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was a queston and answer period followed by a full press conference.
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ronb
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posted 28 January 2003 06:44 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent. Any serious challenges?
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The reason I said that was because he said there is anti-muslim bias in the US.

I see.


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statica
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posted 28 January 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
YORK STUDENTS OCCUPY

Students are currently occupying the ninth floor of the administration buildings at York University. They are demanding a public meeting with York University Lorna Marsden to raise the issue of academic freedom, as well as ensuring that the campus is safe for all students, especially those of middle eastern ethnicity who have faced increased racism in the aftermath of
September 11.

PLEASE CALL IN YOUR GREETINGS OF SOLIDARITY NOW:

416-804-3799

416-209-7129

647-222-2026

This occupation was in response to York University President Lorna Marsden
providing a platform for Daniel Pipes, an American academic who advocates
racial profiling, and harassment of academics who are critical of US foreign
policy.

"Muslim government employees in law enforcement, the military, and the diplomatic corps need to be watched for connections to terrorism, as do
Muslim chaplains in prisons and the armed forces. Muslim visitors and immigrants must undergo additional background checks. Mosques require a
scrutiny beyond that applied to churches, synagogues and temples." --Daniel Pipes

For more information on Pipes, please see:


http://www.campus-watch.org/apologists.php

http://www.campus-watch.org/apologists.php

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/53509.htm

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/01/23/3e2fd490a49c


From: t-oront-o | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 January 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[Globe and Mail

Ok I have tried everything I know to link to Rosie Di Manno's op-ed in the Star but for some reason neithe "Make a shorter link" nor the original URL want to work. Go to the Star site and read the column. It is an interesting take. If anyone is more skilled than I and can manage to post it please do. Thanks.

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Jimmy Brogan
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posted 29 January 2003 09:02 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the Rosie DiManno article
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, DiManno. What a beaut, eh? She can condemn those who would muzzle Pipes but forgive Pipes for muzzling others. Hmmm. How Rosie of her.

Sorry, I lost all respect for Rosie a long time ago. Twice she has written vitriolic columns about the homeless daring to protest and ruin any chance of sympathy. Yet, when they die silently out of her view as she wishes, her sympathetic pen is nowhere to be found.

She is a hypocrite and she displays it wonderfully in that column. Imagine she can spot the irony of people trying to silence Pipes, but can't see the same irony in a man claiming academic freedom while trying to muzzle academics.

Rosie is not a journalist. She is a hack. And not a very good one.

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 10:20 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Congrats to York and all the others for upholding academic freedom and free speech.

And what about you, mishei? Did you uphold academic freedom by questioning Pipe's methods of muzzling siad freedom? Did you applaud politely when he referred to Arabs and muslims as barbarians?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 January 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, early yesterday you said:

quote:
I certainly do have some queries I would like to ask Mr. Pipes about.

Were you able to follow through?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 January 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He referred to Arabs and Muslims as barbarians during his speech? Lovely.

Sure, he has a right to speak - but if that's the kind of thing the JSF sponsors, then they can't expect to be respected.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interestingly, the theme of the lecture series was "Barriers to Peace." Maybe they wanted to see one up close. Although I don;t think there is any shortage of pro-Israeli extremists.
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Briguy
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posted 29 January 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He referred to Arabs and Muslims as barbarians during his speech? Lovely.

Does that not contravene Canada's hate speech laws? Anyone have a transcript we can rush off to the RCMP while Pipes is still on our soil?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 29 January 2003 10:44 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why Daniel Pipes is a racist:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I worry very much from the Jewish point of view that the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews." Daniel Pipes speaking before the convention of the American Jewish Congress, 10/21/2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ellipses always raise red flags for me. They make me want to hunt down those missing words.

For anyone interested, here's the offending unexpurgated version:

quote:
I worry very much from the Jewish point of view that the presence and increased stature and affluence and enfranchisement of American Muslims -- because they are so much led by an Islamist leadership -- that this will present true dangers to American Jews.

Pipes's worries, in other words, stem not from race, but from politics. Many moderate Muslims have also raised concern about the radical Islamist ideology of American Muslim leaders. Pipes might be wrong, but I've seen no evidence of racism.


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skdadl
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posted 29 January 2003 10:47 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He referred to Arabs and Muslims as barbarians during his speech? Lovely.

Michelle, sorry, confused with all the reading -- but I can't figure out your source for this. Where is it said?


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WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 10:50 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, GOD, whazzup! Muslims have muslim leaders? Oh, God!!!! What about Jews? They have Gentile leaders, right? RIGHT?!!!!
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WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard it forst on CBC radio, skdadl, and it sounded worse. But here is how it is reported in today's star:

"The source of this kind of hostility against freedom of speech invariably comes from three forces: not the right but the left; not the Christian right but the Islamists; not the pro-Israel activists but the pro-Palestinian activists," Pipes told the crowd of more than 300, divided between those who applauded him loudly and handed out flyers stating "No More Concordia!" and those who had taped their mouths shut in protest.

"These are barbarians who would close down civilized discussion."


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Mandos
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posted 29 January 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl: Wingy is quoting it. Quite close to Michelle's post.

Whazzup?: Pipes goes to a great deal of effort to create an "Islamist" strawman. The reason why the leaders are the way they are is because most of the Muslim population in the US is not inclined to oppose those views, particularly not those of CAIR. It's clear to me the he is claiming that
1) so-called "Islamist" movements are barbaric.
2) the strength of "Islamist" movements are directly related to the size and affluence of Muslim populations.
3) Therefore, Muslims are barbaric.

This to me is what he is saying and it is racist. He attempting to delegitimize a perfectly legitimate political position by generating a racist strawman and then appealing to it.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 January 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the Pest, here are some snippets:

quote:
"The sources of this kind of hostility to freedom of speech are not on the right but the left, not Christian radicals but Islamists," Dr. Pipes said. "These are barbarians who would close down civil discourse."

He said Palestinians need to abandon "ugly dreams of destroying their neighbour. Until that time, their fate will be dictatorship, poverty and backwardness.

"All supporters of this ideology [Islamism] are part of this killing machine," Dr. Pipes said.


So, if you support Islam's right to exist, you are a part of the Islamic killing machine? Mr. Pipes, you are too kind.

quote:
Fearing a clash of protesters at the speech, York's administration imposed strict security, including a 24-hour lockdown on the building beforehand, metal detectors for the audience, identification checks and dozens of police officers standing by to enforce the warning that hecklers would be forcibly removed.

Only one man defied the rule, with a cry of "racist" on his way out.


I hope nobody considers this an environment where you can challenge a speaker's assertions. Sad that only one person chose to challenge this intimidation.

quote:
Although there was no violence, deviousness was apparent in the lead-up to the speech. One flyer distributed on campus earlier in the day purported to be anti-Pipes, but made such ludicrous arguments that it served to make his detractors seem ignorant.


Nice touch.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 29 January 2003 10:59 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pipes clearly makes the distinctions you claim that he collapses. Radical Islamism is a threat -- just ask the relatives of the beheaded adulterers in Muslim countries where such forces hold sway. Hell, ask the relatives of the victims of 9/11. I lean towards the view that radical Islamism is a force for barbarism, and not as you call it, a "perfectly legitimate political position."

Islam itself, however, is not the problem -- as he makes clear:


quote:
"ISLAM IS EVIL." That's the message a U.S. Secret Service agent illicitly left on an Islamic prayer calendar on July 18 as he was raiding a suspected al Qaeda operative in Dearborn, Mich.

His crude graffito sums up a point of view increasingly heard since 9/11 in the United States. It's also one that is troubling and wrong.

Here is the rub: It is a mistake to blame Islam (a religion 14 centuries old) for the evil that should be ascribed to militant Islam (a totalitarian ideology less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas, the Iranian government and other Islamists results from the ideas of such contemporary radicals as Osama bin Laden and Ayatollah Khomeini, not from the Koran.


Click.

From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 January 2003 11:00 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the very term "barbarian" is racist to its roots (bar-bar = Greek, onomatopoeic, used to describe anyone who spoke a language the Greeks couldn't understand ... as in, "It's all Greek to me." ).

I must start a thread on this subject sometime. Some people seem to have awfully primitive notions of how interesting barbarian cultures have been, and continue to be. Or of how cultural cycles play out in every tradition, producing and reproducing "barbarian" phases (relative to their contemporaries in other cultures) over and over again. Northrop Frye has a good deal to say on this topic. So does the wonderful guy who wrote The Black Sea -- sorry, name escaping me now.

Truly, we must move this discussion on to a higher level. All this backbiting is getting silly. "Barbarians" -- pfft.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 29 January 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Muslims have muslim leaders?

Pipes used the word "Islamist." It does not mean "Islamic," it does not mean "Muslim," it does not mean "Arabic." If you don't understand that distinction, then there's really no point in discussing it.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 29 January 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Pipes clearly makes the distinctions you claim that he collapses. Radical Islamism is a threat -- just ask the relatives of the beheaded adulterers in Muslim countries where such forces hold sway. Hell, ask the relatives of the victims of 9/11. I lean towards the view that radical Islamism is a force for barbarism, and not as you call it, a "perfectly legitimate political position."

No, you have missed the point. Of course, he makes these distinctions, he would be stupid not to. His intolerance is more subtle. He takes an extreme example--beheading in Saudi or something--and identifies it with political positions that have nothing to do with beheading (such as are held by groups like CAIR--I know several members of its Canadian branch quite well). Then he connects this to the very presence of Muslims.

Muslims --> CAIR, etc --> Islamism --> beheading.

Then he performs a Neat Trick. He defines his own innocuous, apolitical/spiritual entity called "Islam", and declares it OK if it has nothing to do with the real world. Muslims as Muslims are supposed to have nothing to do with the real world. Everyone else--have at it! Muslims as political creatures are barbarians, but Jews as political creatures are not. If Muslims want to prostrate and meditate, that's OK with him, but if they are interested in social justice and Muslim political issues, they are evil.

And that's racism.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 11:07 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is so much bullshit, whazzup. Non-radical Islam is an Islam that is subservient to western colonialism. Any other is extremism.

They used the same argument to persecute Jews throughout history.

And it is interesting whazzup that you take some backward practices and use it to slur all of a religion. That in itself is a racist method of steretyping. It has been used against Jews and so many others throughout history. I guess we haven't evolved so far. And keep in mind, south of the border, they inject poison into the veins of people and call it punishment.

In countries throughout the world they are attaching electrical apparatus to testicles, tearing out finger nails and raping prisoners in the name of the war against terrorism with full knowledge and support of good Christians and Jews.

Racism is either wrong or it is appropriate. You decide. But be prepared for the firestorm.

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 29 January 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Whazzup?. It is his very construction of the concept of Islamism to define away and delegitimize Muslim political aspirations that is racist. No one else has to have their aspirations vetted by anyone. Only Muslims. And even the slightest deviation from his line of thought, and fundamental criticism of Israel, slides towards beheading.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 29 January 2003 11:14 AM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And it is interesting whazzup that you take some backward practices and use it to slur all of a religion. That in itself is a racist method of steretyping.

OK, I'm out of here. Yesterday I'm called Saddam's cheerleader, today I'm a racist.

Wingy, what part of "Islam is not the problem" didn't you understand?


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wingy, what part of "Islam is not the problem" didn't you understand?

The part that says Islam is not the problem so long as the faithful reject their political leadership for the subservience of a paternalistic tutelage where they learn to be good, subservient muslims who know their proper place in society. At the bottom.

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Mishei
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posted 29 January 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have just read the full article by Pipes in the 1990 National Review.

The Nation, IMO, quoted his piece well out of context. I would urge you all to read the article, not The Nation's version.

As a friend noted to me and I concur, Pipes was DESCRIBING reactions, through surveys and research of Western Europeans to Muslims. His article was about Muslim phobia if you will.


Interestingly,one of the things Pipes noted in the article was that Muslims would probably
find greater acceptance in America because of America's better, more
positive approach to immigration.

That said, I do agree that the article was awkwardly worded and left room for the uncareful reader to misinterpret his intentions. However, I believe that this particlar article is not the racist card that it has been made out to be.

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 29 January 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Is Pipes the same guy who worked under Reagan and defended the first strike nuclear doctrine?

Not a very appealing character.

I have no idea what to make of his CampusWatch group which I had never heard of, sounds quite ominous but I have no way of knowing if he is powerful enough to truly threaten other academics.

My point is more about the expression "Islamist". I am surprised many here do not seem to know what it refers to and seem to think Islamist is the same as Muslim of Islamic.

In French anyway, "islamisme" (the doctrine) and "islamiste" (the person) quite clearly refer to the religious extreme right that follows the idea of restoring society to an idyllic Islam of the Prophet's era. I thought Islamist meant the same thing in English. The term, in French anyhow, has nothing to do with religion or ethnicity in any modern sense. What is the proper term used in English to describe Salafists, Wahhabists and other religious extremes of the Muslim world if not "Islamist"?

If Pipes is referring to Islamist in this very standard political science way, it has little to do with Muslims per se. I doubt American Muslims are under such a strong Islamist political leadership - most probably vote Democrat. So, the man just appears dumb and uninformed.

This whole debate above is confusing. In French, when people attack "les islamistes" (the movement) or "islamisme" (the ideology), the types of accusations on this thread seldom get thrown back and forth. It is understood as a fairly precise political science term.

Obviously, Pipes is not the poster child for respectful and quiet academic discussion but his attack on "islamisme" is perfectly normal in French circles, particularly progressive ones.

In the name of opposing a right winger like Mr. Pipes, I think it would be unfortunate if people ended up defending "islamistes" (in the French sense) because of confusion between Islamic, Islam and the technical term "Islamist".

I am still not sure what the whole kerfuffle was about. It seems York students are on the same wave length - only 100 or so turned up as far as I can see.

Another reason why many of us on the outside have trouble taking academia, especially in the social sciences, that seriously sometimes.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 29 January 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, if Islamism was used in the French way by Pipes, as you mention, then things would be OK. Pipes very deliberately takes the term to mean "Muslims asserting themselves on Middle East issues and are therefore terrorist accomplices." He does so in order to control discussion.

Whazzup?: I thought were were talking about Pipes, not you.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 29 January 2003 12:04 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
My puzzlement about the whole affair is related to another matter: is Mr. Pipes that well-known and influential? If an academic has to go so far as to create a Web site called CampusWatch, isn't this a sign he can't enlist real academics to support whatever he wants to defend?

After all this is not Marshall McLuhan or Robertson Davies or that Harvard Law guy from the ACLU (the one who defended Klaus von Bulow - whatshisname?)

This whole thing just feels weird, to tell the truth.

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 29 January 2003 12:07 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pipes is pretty well-known and influential. He's a regular talking head. He does have academics on his side, Campus-Watch is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Middle East Forum which has people like the influential Martin Kramer, author of "Ivory Towers on Sand." In my estimation he's a pretty dangerous guy.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 January 2003 12:08 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is weird and that's the point.
If Jewish, pro-Israeli organizations, like B'Nai Brith and the CJC, must enlist the likes of Pipes and Pat Robertson, how tenous is their grip on the morality of the occuaption?

To me it is becoming pathetic.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 29 January 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Well he certainly didn't impress Canadians if only a few showed up. He must have less influence here.
From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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posted 29 January 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Pipes used the word "Islamist." It does not mean "Islamic,"
So what does it mean then? And why are "Islamists" barbarians? Could we same say the same of "Zionists", "Capitalists", "Nudists"...? Does the - ist connote extremism and violence. What language is Pipes speaking? I'm confused.

From: in transit | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 January 2003 12:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mimi, in fact 1200 showed up last night to hear him at a local synagogue. As well,friends at York tell me the entire allotment of tickets, 250,that York admin would allow (security fears), were distributed on a first come first served basis to all York Faculty, student and staff that wanted one. I hear that they could have distributed about 500 more the demand was that high.

As for Pipes being dangerous to academics due to "campuswatch" give me a break. Exactly how many academics have lost their jobs as a result of this website? Right, I rest my case.

Pipes is, as Rosie Dimanno described him today in the Star, "a pencil-neck". He has no more power than any other expert for a cause and whether we like it or not has every right to challenge any academic he chooses for their stated positions on the Middle East or American policy.

Since when have we come to a point that a simple website can put such fear into our hearts without any cause? This is propaganda pure and simple. If Pipes scares you , well you are easily frightened. Get a back bone. Confront him challege him. I hear many have done so with one person actually putting up a counter website..."campuswatchwatch".

Also if you go to Campuswatch you will see that every article ever written on it is on site both positive and negative. Seems pretty open to me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 29 January 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, that so many came to hear him certainly gives me faith in the future.

As for no professors having lost their position, yet, that is beside the point. The chilling effect such intimidation has on academia cannot be brushed aside in such a blase manner. However, it certainly fits into your "see only the evil I want see" outlook.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 29 January 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Well, that's the puzzling part for me: it's a Web site, right? So what? This is why I don't understand the kerfuffle.

I doubt people are being fired left right and centre because someone has a Web site and disagrees with what they might have written on a topic? Academic infighting can be so weird and silly at times.

I don't get the question about "-ist". The term "islamiste", in French at least, refers to a specific brand of extreme right wing ideology. The "-ist" suffix has nothing to to do with it. It's simply the definition of "islamiste" in the literature (or a dictionary). I always thought "Islamist" in English meant the same thing.

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 29 January 2003 12:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Re Pipes in Canada: I haven't read the Notional Pest regularly for the last six months, but we used to subscribe, and he was certainly a frequent op-ed presence during the two-plus years previous.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 29 January 2003 02:02 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This discussion is starting to remind me of a humourous "headline" in the Onion:

'ACLU Defends Nazis' Right to Burn Down ACLU Headquarters'

http://www.theonion.com/onion3211/acludefends.html

(just thought I'd sneak that in since fer sure this thread is about to be locked.)


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 29 January 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Magoo, are you sure you don't live in Ottawa?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 29 January 2003 02:18 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That ACLU thing is hilarious.

Mishei, I wish you would say whether the defence of freedom of speech for all extends to neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers. I'm not asking that to bait you. I'm asking that because they make my skin crawl (when I encounter them on the net, to say nothing of bands of them on public transport...) and I'm sure you must feel the same.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 29 January 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mr. Magoo, are you sure you don't live in Ottawa?

Er.. pretty sure. {{looks out office window at College Park}}

Yup. Pourquoi?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 29 January 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forgive me, then.

I enjoy your posts very much.

It's just that you bear such a striking resemblance ... I mean, right down to the cat ...


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 January 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm interested in hearing Mishei's answer to lagatta's question too, but there isn't enough room in this thread for it. So I think I'll close it and you guys can start a new one if you'd like.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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