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Author Topic: "Israel Is In Denial"
Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"In the collective Israeli Jewish memory," says Pappe, "very few people remember or want to remember this less pleasant side of this story."
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sheep
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posted 27 January 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All lies! Isreal returned Egypt's land and signed a peace treaty. They're nowhere near the Nile!
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Michelle
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posted 27 January 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

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ronb
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posted 27 January 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
nice one, sheep.
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 08:45 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ethnic cleansing attended the birth of Israel but, more than 50 years later, the country is still in denial about its bloody past. Those who speak out risk their jobs.
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Polunatic
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posted 28 January 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't the other myth "a land without people for a people without land"? That's the one I remember being fed as a child.
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Michelle
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posted 28 January 2003 10:02 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting childhood you had, NPP. I was deprived - my parents never discussed Israeli politics with me as a kid.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:37 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have something to add to this but I don't know how to post a link.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can someone help me out ?
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 12:42 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
press the URL button under Instant Formatting when you post a reply.
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Michelle
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posted 28 January 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure. First, when you're writing the message, hit the "URL" button beneath the "Add Reply" button.

A window will open, requesting that you paste or type the address into it. Let's say you want to link to google.ca. So you would type, or paste "http://www.google.ca" into the box. Hit "OK".

Then a new window will pop up and it will ask you to put the name of the page in. You can type whatever you want the link to say - in this case, let's say you just want it to say "Google". So you type "Google" into the box, hit okay, and then the link should look like this:

Google


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skdadl
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posted 28 January 2003 01:14 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some people may have the problem I do -- for some reason, when I hit the URL button, it disables my Edit/Paste function, so I can't proceed.

However, there's a way 'round that. Instead of hitting the URL button, type:

{URL=thenpasteinyoururl}Then type the title you want to show{/URL}

EXCEPT: where I have above typed curly brackets, use square brackets. I didn't use them there, or it would have turned into a (false) link.

You must open and close the brackets exactly as I have, and do not insert extra spaces.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
web page LGF
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 02:45 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it worked. Thanks to all who helped me.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Any comments ?
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The article shows that Arab states had some responsilbility in creating the Nakba. Its sadly true. No one can deny that Arab states have very badly abused Palestinians throughout their history.

But that doesn't remove any culpability from Israel. The Palestinians fled their homes hoping to return in several days. And when they did they where refused. Hundreds of thousands of people don't just up and leave their homeland and forget about it. Call it whatever you want. It's still a violation of human rights. The Zionist state is based on this violation. Its very founding is morally indefensible.

I have met members of one family who told me their story. They lived in Jaffa, and when the news came that "the Jews" were on a rampage they feared for their lives. They were told the Arab armies would defend them. They were told the fighting would be over quickly and in two weeks they would all be able to go home safely. So the family packed some clothes and food, their father locked his book store, and their house and made their way to a nearby town where they had relatives. Two weeks later they returned to Jaffa. The bookstore and everything in it was burned out. And when they came to their house they found foreigners with guns. Everything they had was gone. The Arab armies were revealed to be cowardly traitors. And the Jews of Israel were revealed as monsters indeed.

The family lives now in Jordan. But they are still refugees, denied the right to return to their own home. There father is dead, but his children still have the keys to the bookstore and house in Jaffa, their homeland.

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 03:38 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And the Jews of Israel were revealed as monsters indeed. Wow. Is your head shaved, by the way ?
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 03:50 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm telling the story from the refugees point of view. And, yes, I would also call denying someone from their home monstrous. Although I wouldn't generalize is with "the Jews", rather the I would call the Jewish state a moster. Wouldn't you?
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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 03:50 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, just that invading armies are cruel and ruthless. Nothing at all to do with their religion or nationality.

My mum knew a fellow from her town who was decorated as a hero in the Second World War for killing a lot of German troops. Back home, the guy enjoyed shooting farm animals, pets, wild birds...

That didn't make the fight against the Nazis any less necessary, but war brutalises people and rewards brutal behaviour.


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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I meant the cruel and brutal Zionist state of Israel, which continues to deny the Palestinian right of return. What am I supposed to call it?

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't find it offensive in the context of your story, it is a kind of paraphrase quote. Of course the Palestinians who were expelled could well refer to "the Jews", just as other invadees might refer to the nationality of the invader and not the political leadership behind the agression.

I just fear that there are stil a lot of anti-semites (one encounters these doing web research on historical subjects...). I think it is essential to look at Israel as a state like any other state (as a Jewish-French friend of mine would always say...).


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The topic is about Israel and ethnic cleasning. The link I put up explains that they didn't. Thats my point. Do you think all jews are monsters, or just the one's in Israel ?
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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is like the famous question: "Do you still beat your wife?"

Ridiculous.


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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CJ, I'm sorry if you misunderstood. Personally, I don't think of any Jews as monsters. If it makes you feel better, I can tell you I love the Israeli culture Jews have created. But you can't deny that the country they have built is created from land and lives stolen from the Palestinian people.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok santana, I guess i did misunderstand. You were quoting others. It's hard for me to agree with your last statement though.
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can understand it would be difficult for many Jews to accept the "other side of the story". Not because there isn't enough evidence (Palestinian rights to the land are well documented) but because of the implications. It means so much of what they learned about Israel was false, and it means making it right will take major changes in Israel's image of itself.

[ changed "you" to "they" to avoid confusion ]

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What do you think is false that I learned about Israel. Also, I'm not Jewish.
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CJ, I meant my last post "in general" as to why "Israel is in denial".

As for why you find it hard to accept Palestinian rights, I don't know. Tell me.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 28 January 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe Palestinians do have rights. But I see things a bit differently. I think they have to stop the suicide bombings before anything were to happen. I believe that Arab leaders (dictators) are the one's that are truly responsible for this mess. I believe they brainwash their people and have them blame the jews or america for their woes, when it really is these dictators. I feel bad for alot of the arab population, but I don't think Israel will disappear anytime soon and the arab leaders use this to inflamme the masses.
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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 05:48 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is Israel dealing with these Arab leaders? What is Israel offering that is better than the lies and misery they are offering? Do you think Palestinians enjoy the killing and destruction? Do you really think they will have justice if they just stop fighting and shut up? Who will fight for them, then?
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 08:21 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The topic is about Israel and ethnic cleasning. The link I put up explains that they didn't. Thats my point. Do you think all jews are monsters, or just the one's in Israel ?

Little Green Footballs....

You are offering "Charles" to match my Dr. Ilan Pappe, senior lecturer of Political Science at Haifa University and the Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat?

Very well then, on the 'voluntary' exodus and Plan D:

quote:
The official version, reiterated lately by mainstream historians in Israel in their debate with the new historians, is that the Palestinian leadership called upon its community to leave so that they would not impede the invading Arab armies. No recognition of atrocities beyond Deir Yassin is given in this version, and even this atrocity is attributed to renegade right wing terrorists, not to the Haganah, the main military force of the Jewish community. The new historians, on the other hand, attribute other massacres to the Haganah and some have even discovered a link between the Haganah and the Deir Yassin massacre.

“If I plan to throw someone out of his flat, the fact that he had left before I had a chance to expel him in no way alters the fact of my intention."


From Pappe's: Israeli historians ask: What really happened fifty yeras ago?

Charles's grab bag of quotes, hardly amount to an analysis of history. Here are some alternate readings:

quote:
The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state.

So? This says that the Arabs opposed the will-nilly partitioning of Arab land. Partition was determined largely without the cosultation with the Arab who would be Affected.

quote:
On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead.

But wait, there is fighting already, how did it start? The Arabs are coming to the aid of a besieged Palestinian population. Possibly?

quote:
Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor?

More or less the same, they are invited after they have lost their honour. What could that say?

The term 'invited' may also have some other culturally specific meanings. Here is a possibility: To suggest that the Palestinians got their asses kicked ane were driven out, might be considered rubbing their noses in it. 'Invited,' could be a term used euphemistically to alay the sense of wounded honour, and at the same time reinforce the idea that they are welcome 'guests' not refuggees that should be "suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders..."

quote:
For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ...

Note the italics. This is a general discussion taken from a larger context. He is talking about other villages, there are other incidents that are being dicussed as well, but are not presented in the quote provided.

My guess is that this Jordanian journalist is reffering to his good fortune at not being Deir Yassim on the morning of April 9th, 1948: A final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried. Or perhaps this pundit is simply wrong?

Exagerations? Certainly. No attrocities? A historical falacy. I doubt you will find a single Israeli Historian of weight, even those opposed to Pappe, who deny the events at April 9th, 1948 at Deir Yassim. The question in Israel, among scholars, is if Deir Yassim was an expression of official policy, or the work of rogue elements.

Please note too, that this is a Jordanian newspaper, a monarchal dictatorship, the only other country to benefit territorially from the war of 1948 by its occupation of the West Bank. Pappe estalishes that their was a tacit agreement between Israel and Jordan in this regard. In fact the Jordanian Arab legion, one of the only significantly armed and trained Arab armies of the time hardly set foot outside of the territory now defined as the West Bank, they did not press an offensive against the Israelis in the slightest.

They were happy with what they got, the Palestinians evidently are not.

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 08:44 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way, Israel is not in Denial. That is neighbouring Egypt. Israel is in de Mediterranean and de Dead Sea
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 09:12 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't it the US that is in De Nile?


About 1,000 demonstrators protested in central Cairo, Egypt, against any U.S.-led strike on Iraq. The demonstrators called on the Egyptian government to prevent U.S. and British warships from using the Suez Canal en route for a possible assault on Iraq.

But enough of that...


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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 10:21 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look at this:

quote:
"For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.

I brought this up already, but I am now pretty sure that this quote is extracted from a memorial article about Deir Yassim. It is dated 5 years to the day of the massacre.

This quote that Charles has provided could very well be a perfect example of the selective use of evidence that Pappe is pointing to when he talks about Israel being in denial.

Either Charles, or the source he used, has almost certainly taken this qoute out of its context and used it to purify Israeli history, and blame the Arabs solely for their woes. Any mention of the massacre at Deir Yassim, on April 9th, 1948, seems to have been safely extracted.

quote:
Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of "Irgun butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.

-- Menachem Begin

But did these 'tales' have basis in fact? Yes they did.

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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