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Author Topic: Israeli Killing Spree in Gaza - 12 Dead
darkhorse
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posted 25 January 2003 11:27 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israeli Forces Move Deep Into Gaza City, Killing 12
GAZA (Reuters) - Israel killed at least 12 Palestinians on Sunday in its deepest thrust into Gaza City in two years of fighting, adding ammunition to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's security pledges two days before a general election. see article

[ 25 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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josh
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posted 26 January 2003 09:26 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone keeping count?

As I said in another thread, scores of Palestinians will die as part of the Likud election campaign.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 09:44 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am. It is in the thirites already, which was my base prediction. Last night there was a lot more, mostly scattered.
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Smith
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posted 26 January 2003 09:46 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel's Religious Parties See Battle for Government's Soul

quote:
The Shas rabbis have traditionally favored exchanging land for peace, arguing that Jewish lives matter more than territory. But now, the ultra-Orthodox parties, or at least their members, appear to be turning more supportive of the settlements and Israel's hold on the West Bank and Gaza Strip, experts said.

"They started moving to the right on the national issue," said Shmuel Sandler, who holds the Lainer chair in democracy at Bar-Ilan University and is an expert on the religious. "They say, `We are the real Zionists.'

There is also growing competition for religious voters from settler-oriented parties, like Herut, that explicitly connect nationalism and religion. A member of Parliament from Herut, Michael Kleiner, has advocated bombing Palestinian cities and killing 1,000 Palestinians for every Jew killed in the conflict.


Can you think of any other "liberal democracy" where an MP (or equivalent) could make such a statement in public and not be eliminated from government?

(Serious question. Maybe there are such places.)

[ 26 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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darkhorse
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posted 26 January 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can you think of any other "liberal democracy" where an MP (or equivalent) could make such a statement in public and not be eliminated from government?
None come immediately to mind. As for the Israeli MP, I wouldn't be surprised if he's invited to Canada by the Jewish Student Federation to give a speech.
It's not a far cry from Pipes suggestion that Palestinian villages from which attacks are launched, be "razed." This and other expert advice he proudly posts on his web-site.
quote:
Re-occupy areas from which gunfire or mortars are shot. Raze the PA's illegal offices in Jerusalem, its security infrastructure and villages from which attacks are launched. Capture or otherwise dispose of the PA leadership. Destroy the PA. read article

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skdadl
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posted 26 January 2003 12:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, Kleiner sent my eyebrows up this a.m. Not great breakfast reading.

Send in the UN.


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Michelle
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posted 26 January 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ditto.
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josh
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posted 26 January 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's clear that there are those like Kleiner, Lieberman and Effiam who are just chomping at the bit to engage in full-fledged ethnic cleansing. As for other liberal democracies, while not currently, the French in Algerian, the British in India and the U.S. in the Phillipenes(sp) are examples that come to mind. You also have anti-immigrant parties currently throughout Europe.

But the point is less than pointing to such examples, than in preventing it from happening.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 26 January 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like how you titled it. Israeli killing spree. No bias.
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darkhorse
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posted 26 January 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How would you title it? "12 Die in the Cross-fire." ?
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Smith
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posted 26 January 2003 12:53 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No matter how you name it, this is tragic and disgusting. How does one write to the UN?
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Cracker Jack
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posted 26 January 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The artice that you've posted doesn't even use that headline. Why didn't you title it like they did ?
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Cracker Jack
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posted 26 January 2003 12:59 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After reading the article, you could have titled it "Israelis respond to rocket attacks, kill 12."
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darkhorse
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posted 26 January 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was a killing spree, designed to boost Likud in the polls. Even Reuters implies as much.

And this puts Israel in grievous and blatant violation of UN Resolution 1451, the most recent one on the issue. The UN should be taking action. This is much more clear cut than any speculative breach Iraq has made against Resolution 1441. We should all write to the UN.

[ 26 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Cracker Jack
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posted 26 January 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course reuters implies that. It's reuters.
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Smith
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posted 26 January 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Huh? Reuters?
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darkhorse
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posted 26 January 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Of course reuters implies that. It's reuters.
What do you mean? Should they over-look what is glaringly obvious? They're pretty fair, from my experience.
quote:
We do not take sides and attempt to reflect in our stories, pictures and video the views of all sides. We are not in the business of glorifying one side or another or of disseminating propaganda. Reuters journalists do not offer their own opinions or views.

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Cracker Jack
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posted 26 January 2003 02:20 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You just said Reuters implies that. Then you go on to quote reuters just presents the facts, no opinions. Well, why would they imply that then ? Why didn't they imply it was because of the rocket attacks ? Also, if reuters is fair, so is Arab news.
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darkhorse
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posted 26 January 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The implication is in the nature of the events that took place in Gaza and their context. It would be a gross oversight not to mention that the election is in two days, that Sharon is campaigning on his usual platform of "tough measures" and that the Gaza incursion is one of them. It would take a certain amount of spin and dishonesty to avoid the implication.
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mandrake
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posted 26 January 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard this morning on the CBC news that 12 Palestinians were killed in gun battles with the IDF.

quote:
An Israeli military source said troops came under fire from gunmen with assault rifles, explosives and anti-tank missiles.

Seems to me there's some difference between 'indiscriminate slaughter', as some would characterize it, and 'gun battles'.

quote:
"We will shed Jewish blood in Jaffa and Tel Aviv," Abdel-Aziz al-Rantisi, a top Hamas official, said in response to the Israeli raid.

An on and on it goes. There was a Palestinian spokesman on the CBC the other day who said that they cannot stop fighting and negotiate with the Israelis because then they would be admitting defeat. Well, duh! The Palestinians can't possibly win with their present strategy. They have few viable options. Suihom bombings is not one of them.


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darkhorse
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posted 26 January 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
An Israeli military source said troops came under fire from gunmen with assault rifles, explosives and anti-tank missiles.
Note that the source remains unnamed. Note also that the source is from the Israeli military - the perpetrator of the killings.
And when you invade a city, don't expect them to welcome you with flowers and a parade.
quote:
Israeli soldiers later shot dead a 13th Gazan, a boy, 7, who was playing in Rafah camp, medics and relatives said.

[ 26 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was a killing spree, designed to boost Likud in the polls. Even Reuters implies as much.

It is more than that.


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Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestine Media Center

quote:
Reports

Occupation Chronicle - Events in Palestine

25/01/2003
Palestine Media Center- (PMC)

Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) killed five Palestinian civilians over the past twenty-four hours, launching a massive military assault in the Gaza Strip. IDF also demolished at least ten houses in Rafah town, south of the Gaza Strip.

IDF Invade Beit Hanoun, Kill 16 year-old Boy

Israeli occupation forces (IOF) killed Hassan Yousef Fayad, 16, as Israeli tanks and armored vehicles, backed by helicopters gunship, opened heavy machine gunfire at citizens of Beit Hanoun town, to the north of Gaza Strip.
Palestinian medical sources said several civilians were injured during the assault.
Israeli tanks opened their machine gunfire randomly and intensively on Palestinians' houses, causing the destruction of a number of water and power networks and spreading fear and panic among Palestinian men, women and children.
Israeli bulldozers, backed by tanks, also destroyed completely four bridges used by Palestinian residents and vehicles, paralyzing movement throughout the city.

Mentally Ill Man Killed in al-Maghazi

Hospital officials in the Deir al-balah city, declared that Mohammad Almosadar, 24, of the Maghazi refugee camp, was shot dead by Israeli soldiers as he was walking, east of the refugee camp.
Palestinian security sources said Israeli occupation forces incurred tens of meters into the eastern part of Maghazi refugee camp and opened fire randomly on Palestinians' houses, causing the fatal death of the mentally ill young man and the injury of four other civilians.

Israeli Apaches Target Palestinian Hospital

A woman in her 30s died when a helicopter missile slammed a Gaza City hospital, heavily damaging a chapel in one of the hospital compounds as well as several other buildings, security sources said.
The woman, who was a patient at al-Ahli hospital, died of a heart attack when the missile struck a chapel in the compound and caused heavy
damage, Palestinian sources said.

IDF Kill Two Civilians Near Nablus

Two Palestinian civilians, including a 47-year-old woman, were killed by IDF troops near the northern West Bank town of Nablus.
Israeli military sources claimed the two civilians were attempting to attack Israeli soldiers. They were identified as Su'ad Jodallah andAyman al-Hanawi.
Palestinian officials however dismissed the Israeli claims adding IDF soldiers killed the two victims in cold blood.

IDF Bulldozers Demolish Houses in Rafah

Israeli military bulldozers demolished at least ten Palestinian houses in the Gaza Strip city of Rafah, belonging to the families of Abu Taha, Awad and Abu Libda.
Israeli tanks and bulldozers incurred into the Palestinian residential neighborhood of Block O, which is located on the Palestinian-Egyptian border, just south of Rafah city.


Perhaps, Darkhorse you should not have put the spin you did on the original thread title, Instead you could have just called the thread:

Totals for January 25th: Number of Palestinian Civilians Killed By IDF: 2053, Number of Palestinians Wounded by IDF: 21,473

Just the facts, after all, sometimes speak for themselves.


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skdadl
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posted 26 January 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe we should discuss the reasons why the UN is NOT going in to stop the carnage ... why those of us who lodge symbolic calls for the kind of mercy we were promised, post-Rwanda, would flow freely anywhere on earth know that our pleas are sheerly symbolic, and that that mercy is not, in fact, ever going to flow for Palestine.
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Apples
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posted 26 January 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Note that the source remains unnamed. Note also that the source is from the Israeli military - the perpetrator of the killings.
And when you invade a city, don't expect them to welcome you with flowers and a parade.

Let me make sure I understand. The Israeli military is lying about the Palestinians being gunmen, and even if they were gunmen, it's okay that they were because the Israelis weren't supposed to be in Gaza City anyway.


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skdadl
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posted 26 January 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, first of all, some of those dead bodies would appear not to be "men," so how can they all be "gunmen"?

Second: what is a gunman? Anyone in Gaza or the West Bank who has a gun, and comes out of his home to defend it? Are all "gunmen" also "terrorists"? Is anyone in the OT who owns/is caught holding a gun immediately subject to capital punishment?

These are troubling confusions.


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skdadl
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posted 26 January 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In other words, Apples, your assumption that the IDF should be able to barge in to anyone's home at any time and meet with no resistance at all (all resistance becoming at once a capital crime, and the IDF judge, jury, and executioner) simply takes my breath away.
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josh
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posted 26 January 2003 06:01 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, the reason the UN isn't going in is the same reason they've never been allowed into Northern Ireland. The Israeli governments won't let them in either because they don't have the political will or they believe the "territories" are part of "greater Israel."
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Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
15 killed on Friday and Saturday
Sunday, January 26, 2003

In an Israeli pre-election battle, 13 were killed in Gaza on Saturday, and another two were killed in Nablus.

Saturday
According to information gathered by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza (PCHR), at around 10:20pm on Saturday, Israeli forces covered by helicopters, entered Hayy al-Zaytoun, south of Gaza City. Heavy indiscriminate firing took place, particularly from the helicopters. After taking complete control of the area, Israeli forces spread out into the streets and began to place explosives inside seventeen workshops. They were imploded this morning, Sunday January 26, completely destroying the workshops and two homes. Another 25 other homes
were also severely damaged.

When Israeli forces entered the area, Ashraf Samih Kahil (22) was killed by indiscriminate fire in the chest and legs. Tank shells were also fired in the direction of three Palestinian combatants, who were killed instantly.

During indiscriminate heavy firing in the area, another eight people were killed. Around another 40 people were injured, six of them critically.

The killed are Ahmad Hassan al-Fayoumi (24), combatant; Mohammad Rashad Abid (28), combatant; Ahmad Shadeh Aabid (23), combatant; Ashraf Samih Kahil (23); Mohammad Akram al-Nakhaleh (21); Alaa Zuhair Khalifeh (23); Rami Fathi Issa (27); Marwan Zuhair Rahmi (25); Iyyad Bader Jibril Akkawi (20); Wissam Fayez Yusef Hassan (24); Khaled Ali Hassan Shalouf (17); Amjad al-Hattab (16).

Friday, January 24: Punitive home demolition On Friday morning, Israeli forces demolished the family home of Masoud Ayyad, who was extra judicially assassinated some time ago.

According to information gathered by LAW, on Friday morning Israeli forces accompanied by tanks from the illegal Israeli settlement Netzarim, south Gaza city, and entered Hayy al-Zaytoun. The forces surrounded the home, arrested two of his sons, Khader (35) and Hasaan (30), his brother, Said (52) and grandson, Masoud (14). Israeli troops demolished their five-floor home, where five families lived.

During the day, Masoud (14) and Said (52) were released. However Khader (35) and Hasaan (30) are still in detention.

Friday, January 24: Church inside hospital bombed in Gaza According to information gathered by the PCHR in Gaza, at around 2:30am, Israeli helicopters fired five missiles, hitting a metal workshop near a school in the middle of crowded Gaza city. The Anglican St. Philip Church was also hit, destroying the roof and extensively damaging the interior. A woman and child health clinic was also extensively damaged. Both are within the grounds of the al-Ahali hospital in Gaza.

Friday, January 24: Israeli forces throw hand grenades at Mom, claim she is armed

According to information gathered by LAW, at around 9am Friday, Suad Snoubar Jawdallah (46), her son Abdallah (19), Ayman Hinawi (20) and another Palestinian whose identity remains unknown, were walking in the direction of al-Naqoura village from Nablus. They were taking a route often used by Palestinians to get to Nablus by foot.

The route reaches between an Israeli military barracks and a settlement, Shami Shomron. Israeli forces threw hand grenades at the four. Suad and Ayman were killed instantly by shrapnel. Abdallah was injured. However the extent of his injuries is unclear. He was arrested and taken to an unknown destination. The fourth person fled.

The Israeli newspaper, Yediot Ahronot, on its Arabic website noted a military source who said Israeli forces killed armed Palestinians, one of them a woman, who attempted to plant explosives near Shami Shomron, west of Nablus.

However, LAW's field researcher in Nablus threw doubt on the Israeli version of events. The area where they were killed is 4kms from the settlement, and also around 4kms from the military barracks. The area where they killed is also considered to be an alternative route for Palestinians seeking to enter Nablus on foot. The route is not used by soldiers, noted the field researcher, thus questioning why Palestinians would want to plant explosives there. Settlers also, do not use this area.

Israeli forces are visibly present in the area, and usually stop and search Palestinians, causing lengthy delays.


[ 26 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 07:33 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian joke:

Palestinians are the highest exporters of international news per capita. Yet we don't get any returns from such exports, not even intellectual copyright royalties.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 27 January 2003 09:08 AM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what you're saying is that Israeli is simply opening fire on any and all Palestinians, just for the sake of killing them ?
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WingNut
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posted 27 January 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That would seem a fair analysis.
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Cracker Jack
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posted 27 January 2003 01:12 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, I don't whther to laugh or cry at such a pathetic comment.
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WingNut
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posted 27 January 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Try both. Cry for the victims on both sides and then laugh at the hilarious justifications for continued violence.
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Moredreads
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posted 27 January 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what you're saying is that Israeli is simply opening fire on any and all Palestinians, just for the sake of killing them ?

I guess you missed the fact that LAW report specifically identified some of the dead as combatants, but contested that description in the cases of others.

I am saying that Israel is not defending the the territorial sanctity of what is internationally recognized as Israel, but that the present campaign is intended to pacify a billegrent population in territories that do not belong to it. There is nothing irrational about it.

Even during the election campaign, Sharon on has gone on record as saying he is opposed to building a wall around the WB, because it will stabalize the border and could be construde as defining 'a border.' His objective is to Annex as much as possible of WB.

You have yet to provide evidence that he intend anything less. Do you have any?

[ 27 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]

[ 27 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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Cracker Jack
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posted 27 January 2003 05:31 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No I don't. But that doesn't that there isn't any. Also, do you agree with what WingNut replied ?
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WingNut
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posted 27 January 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You mean this?

quote:
Try both. Cry for the victims on both sides and then laugh at the hilarious justifications for continued violence.

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Moredreads
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posted 27 January 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Certainly, I do. Cry forever people, but I am more concerned with the political apsects of what is going on and how to resolve the situation.

Attrocity is a fact of this situation, I am more interested in where justice lies in the larger political environment, the individual tragedies are just that.

quote:
No I don't. But that doesn't that there isn't any. Also, do you agree with what WingNut replied ?

If you don't have any evidence, how can you defend the onging attacks against Palestinians, in the light of the fact that there is tons of very concrete evidence that Sharon intends to annex the WB for Israel.

It would seem that in that light resistance is a perfectly logical course for Palestinians.

[ 27 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


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darkhorse
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posted 27 January 2003 07:42 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am more concerned with the political apsects of what is going on and how to resolve the situation
Me too, but as to the resolution, hasn't it always been in the hands of Israel to implement? As long as they continue the Occupation and the settlements, it is they who stand in the way of any resolution. Isn't that the case? Palestinian violence is intermittent, but the occupation is an ongoing act of violence. The difficulty has never been in finding a solution, since the solution has been clear from the start. A preliminary resolution would involve compliance with UN Resolutions 242, 338, withdrawal to the internationaly recognized borders, and then and only then, can a process of conciliation, negotiation, land swaps etc.. commence. Am I missing something, or is that not the obvious first step?

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DrConway
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posted 27 January 2003 08:14 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My eyes started glazing over as I read about the latest case of carnage and destruction in Israel/Palestine.

I'm simply at a loss for words; I think I've lost the facility to do more than just read the Middle East threads and shake my head.


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Daoine
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posted 27 January 2003 08:32 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suspect that this is the statement Cracker Jack was referring to:
quote:
Cracker Jack -- "So what you're saying is that Israeli is simply opening fire on any and all Palestinians, just for the sake of killing them ?"
WingNut -- "That would seem a fair analysis."

Contrary to what seems to be popular opinion, you don't have to hate israelis to demand human consideration for palestinians.

It's very easy to justify killing "armed palestinians" (gunmen, women with guns, children with stones/rocks), because in all likelihood the vast majority of us are accustomed to a world in which it simply isn't acceptable to bear arms against "authority".

But what if policemen sometimes bulldozed the homes of suspected drug-dealers (particularly if those individuals lived in multi-family dwellings), or sometimes shot small schoolchildren? If an external enemy deployed an equivalent force here, we would call up our own military, and one way or another things would be resolved pretty quickly.

We say that it's useless to try to understand why madmen do what they do (because they're madmen, after all). Then again, criminal profilers, who do try to understand, and who use that understanding to good effect.

We say that terrorists must be simply denounced; that to look for causes is tantamount to blaming the victims for their attacks. But if you apply that logic to other situations which aren't so emotionally charged, it becomes obvious lunacy. Try to bake cookies from half a recipe, you may get bad cookies; but on your second attempt, would you do the exact same thing again? Even a random change would be better, because you know that your first attempt didn't work.

Rational people learn from their mistakes, and they assess their actions and the consequences of those actions to try to minimize and correct for mistakes. It's not a question of blame, but of simple prudence. Is current Israeli policy regarding palestine effective? And is it acceptable?

I would ask the same questions of the palestinians, except that they don't have a recognized military or other governing authority (the PA is denounced as a terrorist organization, and targeted by the IDF, remember), and "policy" arises chaotically when and where it arises at all.


Poking around on the web for facts on this subject, I ran across this site, listing Yitzhak Rabin's last speech, just before his assassination. The following observation is sadly reminiscent of many discussions we've had here in recent months on this topic:

quote:
Rabbis in the West bank gave sermons in which they proclaimed that Rabin was a traitor and a persecutor of the Jewish people, worthy of death. This agitation was aided and abetted by members of the opposition Likud party and other right-wing politicians. The Likud and the right had long since replaced themselves in the national consciousness of Israelis as the true "fathers" of the Jewish state, rather than the Zionist movement. They called themselves "The National Camp" (Mahaneh Leumi) as opposed to "The Other Camp." The implication that the opposition was composed of traitors and supporters of terror - "Ashafistim" was made either implicitly or explicitly at countless rallies. Likud leader Benjamin Nethanyahu presided over a right wing rally at which posters were carried showing Yitzhak Rabin in the uniform of a Nazi SS officer.

Demonizing rhetoric serves short-term political goals well, but has this attitude served Israel's interests in any larger sense?

If the headline were "12 Palestinians killed in Gaza", that would not changed the real questions that we should be asking: Why? What purpose was served by these 12 deaths, or by the other 2,041? And are those deaths an acceptable trade-off?

I propose that there isn't any acceptable trade-off for two thousand deaths. There are circumstances in which the lesser of evils must be chosen; but in this case, a marked change of direction in policy, pushed by those who so sharpened their rhetoric that it was appropriated by Amir, led us away from that path to peace. Whether or not peace is possible from here, the policy that has brought us to this point has been chosen, in many cases consciously.

Peace isn't an evil, and it wasn't an evil; but it was and is still being painted as such.


From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
mandrake
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posted 27 January 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
During indiscriminate heavy firing in the area, another eight people were killed. Around another 40 people were injured, six of them critically.

Not just from the IDF, I'm guessing. It's quite possible that some of the Palestinian gunmen killed their own people.


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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 06:19 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quite possibly.

Thing is Palestinians have a greater right to be 'gunmen,' in their hometown, the IDF does not. These 'gunmen,' were nowhere near any Israeli settelments.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 09:32 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hello,
Dear Tilo, Riad,

Greetings, I wish that you are doing fine..

Today, there is a big demonstration and the schools are closed in Rafah camp, because of that situation, two people were killed this night and now there demonstration will began, in addition that the IDF, didn't stoop shooting till this moment, in addition that IDF demolished two orange tree half houses and cleaned the area which demolished in the last Saturday..

It's two picture to show how they demolished markets and shopping places in Rafah, as you see in that attached picture they force people to close there markets an offices..

In addition to the shooting towards the biggest daily market in Rafah, now there is shooting towards the people who is come to buy from the market・

That's all till that moment..

Best wishes.

Mohammed.



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 31 January 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dear Friends,
We are focusing our work on the Gaza/Rafah area due to the hardship and the extensive home demolitions by the Israeli army. One of these families is that of Naji Abaas the man who was burried to his waist by the Israelis and is now very sick and can not work.

PCWF is refurnishing his house nad taking care of ALL his needs. Please find below the email that we received from Dr. Elfarra as we asked her to check him and his children and give them all the medical attention that they need...thanks to you for buying Palestinian made goods and donating to the children we can do these things.

Thanks for your patience and support..
Salamat
Riad Hamad


quote:
Dear mr. Hamad
salammat

yesterday Naji abbas and his family came to my
clinic at AlAwda Hospital -jabalia refujee camp, as i told you earlier on, uhwc is committed to give medical care to Naji and his family as well as all the sponsored children through pcw programme, we also are committed to thousands of children who canot aqfford qualitative health care,it is our work philosophy,health services according to need.

i interviwed the family and reassured them about the money arrival ,and how we are going to spend it ,they were happy to learn about the fridge ,and the cloths ,the children need warm cloth and good fresh food ,i told you earlier that both kids are suffering from malnutrition(this has become prevelant in Gaza)35%of under 5 kids complains of one or another malnutrition disease,i referred the two kids to our eye clinic,the ophthalmoligist recommended a pair of eye glasses for the boy, he complains of some degree of eye refraction, i shall guarantee its prescription through the alAwda hospital what broke my heart most, although i daily meet with these impoverished patients,i asked the little boy if he wants to get a toy? he said no what i need and like to get is a cone of icecream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Riad please tell every body who is part of this
programme, they are doing great job for the children of Palestine who are now lacking so many things incuding their own safety.

all my love and salammat
Mona Elfarra



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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posted 31 January 2003 06:57 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian Gunman, Bystander Killed in West Bank Fri January 31, 2003 11:15 AM ET
By Wael al-Ahmad

JENIN, West Bank (Reuters) - Israeli soldiers searching for West Bank militants killed a Palestinian gunman on Friday in an exchange of fire that also killed a bystander.--ARTICLE--


When Palestinian bystanders are killed, why is it always "in an exchange of fire"? Are there never any witnesses?

[ 31 January 2003: Message edited by: darkhorse ]


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Moredreads
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posted 31 January 2003 09:17 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps it is the fact that they are witnesses that is the problem.
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darkhorse
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posted 31 January 2003 11:26 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I think you're on to something...
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darkhorse
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posted 03 February 2003 12:03 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
John Pilger - recent article
quote:
While the Iraq pantomime plays, America's proxy, Israel, has begun the next stage of its historic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. On 21 January, the town of Nazlat 'Iza in the northern West Bank was invaded by a force of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and 60-ton, American-made Israeli bulldozers. Sixty-three shops were demolished, along with countless homes and olive groves. Little of this was reported outside the Arab world. Some parts of the West Bank have been under curfew for a total of 214 days. Whole villages are under house arrest. People cannot get medical care; ambulances have been prevented from reaching hospitals; women have lost their newborn babies in agony and pools of blood at military checkpoints. Fresh water is permanently scarce, and food; in some areas, more than half the children are seriously undernourished. One image unforgettable to me is the sight of children's kites flying from the windows and yards of their prison-homes.

Then there is the slaughter. During the month of November, more than 50 Palestinian civilians were killed by the Israelis - a record by one calculation. These included a 95-year-old woman, 14 young children and a British UN worker, shot in the back by an Israeli sniper. Human rights groups say the deaths occurred mostly in circumstances in which there was no exchange of gunfire. "The Israelis have killed 16 Palestinians within 48 hours," said Dr Mustafa Barghouti in Ramallah on 27 January. "That's an average of one Palestinian every three hours. The silence about this is simply unconscionable."

While Blair damns Iraq for the chemical weapons that a swarm of inspectors cannot find, he has quietly approved the sale of chemical weapons to Israel, a terrorist and rogue state by any dictionary meaning of those words. While he accuses Iraq of defying the United Nations, he is silent about the 64 UN resolutions Israel has ignored - a world record.

The Israeli terrorists, who subjugate and brutalise a whole nation, demolishing homes and shops, expelling and killing and "systematically torturing" (Amnesty) day after day, are not mentioned in the Observer editorial. No "decisive action" (the Observer's words) is required against the prima facie war criminals Ariel Sharon and General Shaul Mofaz, who, along with their predecessors, have caused a degree of suffering of which Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda can only dream. There is no suggestion that the British force heading for the Middle East should "intervene" in the "republic of fear" that Israel has created in Palestine in defiance of the world, and "displace" them. There is not a word about the weapons of mass destruction that Sharon repeatedly flaunts ("the Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches").



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Daoine
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posted 03 February 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for Daoine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it would be interesting to post pictures of everyone killed in the conflict, along with depictions of what they had been typically doing and experiencing up until their death.

Sadly, of course, some would see only what they wanted to see: palestinians would see differences in living conditions, and would stoke the fires of resentment; israelis and their supporters would see muslim fundamentalism, and anti-israeli speech and activity, and would reinforce their convictions that palestinians all seek the destruction of Israel and the jewish people, feeling all the more justified in their own and the IDF's actions.

However, I believe we'd find that they were all human beings, who had lived human lives, and that many of the palestinian dead were living their lives as many of the israeli dead had (different surroundings, perhaps; but within their contexts, they eat, drink, and sleep, care for their children), and that the children played. And we'd get, perhaps for the first time, a real sense of context for these lost lives; a backdrop against which we could more clearly see why, rather than just what and when, these killings took place. And we'd see more concretely how many lives, on both sides, on all sides, are being lost.

And maybe enough people would not be too blind to see the insanity of it all.


From: Gulag Alabamadze | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 03 February 2003 05:53 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Cracker Jack. This thread should have been titled, "Evil, Heavily Armed Palestinian Terrorist Monsters Brought to Justice by Saintly Israeli Peace Troops - Heroes Who Should be Nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize"
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 03 February 2003 11:03 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Voice of America

quote:
Israeli military units have started demolishing a group of Palestinian-owned homes in the divided West Bank city of Hebron.

Bulldozers guarded by Israeli soldiers began knocking down the 22 homes Sunday as Palestinians looked on.



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 05 February 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hello,

Good greetings, I wish that you are doing fine..

It is a terrible disappointment. It is quite dramatically unbelievable setback that has been mixed with long lasting lack of justice.

We are displaced at a time when humanity vanished, we are killed at a time when charity disappeared, and the house destroyed down to the ground, bricks are turned into ruin, materials are changed into debris and all the furniture is changed into tiny pieces. Our shelter is wiped out..

For more details about that story of the man who loss his brother, sister, and his house also , you can visit the Rafah web site and see what happened with that man and his family..

http://rafah.vze.com

http://rafah.virtualactivism.org

Salamat.

Mohammed.



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Moredreads
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posted 17 February 2003 03:36 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Hello,
Dear Riad,
Greetings,

News from Rafah camp:

A group of Israeli bulldozers and tanks attacked Rafah camp in Block O and demolished other 2 houses and more than 5 people were killed in that attack. That time they demolished a swage station, and now Rafah suffer from medical problem,

Now there is a massive shooting and explosion, in that time a group of Internationals people came her to ask the Israeli solders to get tow bodes under the ground of tow people who killed yesterday while the Israeli solders pumped tow houses yesterday in the evening, unfortunately the solders didn’t allowed to tack the Martyrs bodes and buried it. Most of the people in Rafah don’t know what to do and after there house demolished , in that hard time as the wither is very chilly and raining today..

Best regards.
Mohammed.



From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
darkhorse
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posted 17 February 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for darkhorse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israeli Troops Kill Militant Amid Vows of Vengeance
Mon February 17, 2003 05:33 PM ET

By Nidal al-Mughrabi
GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli forces killed a leader of the military wing of Hamas on Monday, drawing threats of revenge at a massive Palestinian funeral in the Gaza Strip.

Riyad Abu Zeid died while being evacuated by a military helicopter to an Israeli hospital with wounds the Israeli army said had been sustained in an exchange of fire with soldiers trying to arrest him.

The killing, which Palestinians called an assassination of Abu Zeid, appeared to be part of an Israeli offensive against Hamas in Gaza after the death of a four-man tank crew in a weekend attack claimed by the organization.

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz promised on Sunday "to strike hard at our enemy Hamas," a faction that has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide attacks during a 28-month-old Palestinian uprising for statehood.

The pledge was followed by the killing of six Hamas militants in a Gaza blast blamed on Israel.

"There will be more martyrdom operations inside the Zionist entity," senior Hamas leader Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi said at the huge Gaza funeral for the six men.

100,000 AT FUNERAL

Around 100,000 people, including hundreds of militants firing automatic rifles in the air, marched at the funeral for the six Hamas followers killed on Sunday. Residents called it the largest funeral ever held in the Gaza Strip.



From: in transit | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 28 February 2003 01:42 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Moredreads


Just had a look at the Rafah web-side you provided a link to.

It is just plain barbaric what is going on there. Cannot think of another word to describe it. Such misuse of power. Not good advertizing for democracy. One day democracy , then years of terror, till next voting day.


Thanks for the link.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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