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Author Topic: Is Israel Committing a War Crime
WingNut
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posted 19 January 2003 07:22 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forcible Transfers
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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Babbler # 569

posted 19 January 2003 09:53 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Looks like it. Add it to the list...
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 January 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Firstly, this does not belong here.

Secondly, if in fact, these peolple were involved in assisting in terrorism , removal from their homes is in my opinion, absolutely fair game.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 20 January 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The problem is that if you are referring to suicide bombers, the person involved in terrorism is dead, by definition. Demolishing the house of his (or nowadays, sometimes her) family is collective punishment, which I believe is considered a war crime.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 January 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moving this to the Middle East forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apples
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posted 20 January 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all, if Israel can commit war crimes against Palestinians, Palestinians can commit war crimes against Israel. And I think that using suicide bombers against civilians is a bit worse than shipping off a couple of people who helped make it happen.

Don't you want the terrorist attacks against Israel to end? Isn't removing terrorists from their communities, their terrorist networks, the right thing to do? What happens when Intisar and Kifah sew someone else's suicide belt? Is Israel supposed to ask them not to do it again and send them back home?

Israel has two options: they could reveal their source and try Intisar and Kifah, compromising the source to jail two nobodies, or they could ship them off to the Gaza Strip. Which would you do?


From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
rubble
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posted 20 January 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for rubble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't you want the terrorist attacks against Israel to end?

Sure I do, but don't you want the Occupation to end?

Wasn't it terrorism that confiscated Palestinian lands and homes in the 40's? The way I see it is natural terrorist negotiating with a bred terrorist.


From: Earth | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 January 2003 01:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So are you arguing, mishei, two wrongs do make a right?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apples
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posted 20 January 2003 01:33 PM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wasn't it terrorism that confiscated Palestinian lands and homes in the 40's? The way I see it is natural terrorist negotiating with a bred terrorist.

Actually, it was the regular armies of five Arab nations with the declared goal of ethnically cleansing Israel of all Jews that set off the first Israeli-Arab war of modern times in 1948, leading to the expulsion of most of the Palestinian people, not some sort of terrorist campaign.

And to set the record straight, Israel has never used suicide bombers.


P.S. you might want to rethink calling either side "natural terrorists"


From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 20 January 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, it was the regular armies of five Arab nations with the declared goal of ethnically cleansing Israel of all Jews that set off the first Israeli-Arab war of modern times in 1948, leading to the expulsion of most of the Palestinian people, not some sort of terrorist campaign.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find very many historians, outside of Israel, who will go along with this rather black and white reading of events.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 January 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I'm not comfortable with this "natural terrorist" thing either. Could you explain what you meant by that, rubble?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 20 January 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Secondly, if in fact, these peolple were involved in assisting in terrorism , removal from their homes is in my opinion, absolutely fair game.

quote:
The two Palestinians, Intisar and Kifah 'Ajuri, have been in detention since 4 June and 18 July, respectively, but have never been charged and no proceedings have been initiated to bring them to trial.

I'm sorry, but holding or transferring someone without charge is not acceptable. Even if the person involved is a suspected terrorist. Human rights are for all of us.

quote:

The Israeli government claims that it cannot try them because this would expose the source of the evidence against them.

Well, that's just too darn bad, isn't it? Two "nobodies," eh? Well, if they're really "nobodies," why does Israel care enough to remove them? Everybody is a somebody, Apples, even if you don't remember them.

As for the '40s...I don't know what you've been reading. People were forced out. Other people were massacred. Other people fled. Israeli apologists like to portray the state as a perpetual innocent (or nearly innocent) victim. It just ain't so.

As for suicide bombers, is there something intrinsically worse about suicide bombers than other kinds of bombers that I don't know about? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that if you deliberately kill 20 people, it doesn't really matter how.

And the Palestinians do not have a state or a proper state government, so I really don't think you can act like they're on an equal footing with Israel. The vast majority of them don't have the power to stop the suicide bombings, or even know where they're going to happen.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 January 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm sorry, but holding or transferring someone without charge is not acceptable. Even if the person involved is a suspected terrorist. Human rights are for all of us.


Easy to say in the peaceful comfort of your home in Halifax where you don't have to worry about being blown to smithereens jsut because you decide to shop for your groceries.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 January 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Easy to say in the peaceful comfort of your home in Toronto where you don't have to worry about being forcibly removed from your home just because some neighbour or relative of yours is a fanatic.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 January 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 20 January 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, how can you simply ignore the existence of the other side? This constantly baffles me. How can you have so much sympathy for Israeli civilians - who deserve sympathy, yes - and so little sympathy for Arab civilians, who also have to worry about being killed when they go to the market - if they even get to go to the market? If Jews were being forced out of their homes and held indefinitely without charge, would you find that acceptable? Because I sure wouldn't. And don't come back at me with something about Jews not blowing themselves up in bus stations, because no, they don't, but Palestinians generally don't either (how many Palestinians are there in the West Bank? And how many suicide bombings since the beginning of the intifada? I rest my case), and Jews do commit crimes.

All anyone asks in this situation is that the people involved be charged. If they are terrorists, yes, they deserve to be punished. But be honest about it. Charge them. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

And as for the comfort of my home in Halifax, please. That is a low blow, especially coming from someone in Toronto. We're both living at low risk here, so please stop trying to shush me on those grounds.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 January 2003 04:53 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith I have sympathy (more than you will ever know) for the ordinary Palestinian family who suffers because of the acts of a few of his/her countrypeople.

I have no sympathy for anyone who would engage in terrorism.

This is not Canada quite right and yes I am as comfortable as you in Toronto. That is why I will not judge what Israelis must do (within reason) to protect themselves.

Did the Americans decide to capture the Taliban and hold criminal trials?

I dont think so. Sheesh ask all those "POWs" in Guantanamo Bay what happened to their homes.

Israel is engaged in a war against terrorism. When we both have to live there for any length of time maybe then we can be more free to complain about the right thing to do.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 January 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei: I have no sympathy for anyone who would engage in terrorism.
Then what do you have to say about Zionist terrorism at the beginning of Israel's existence? What do you have to say about Israel's victims in 1948?

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 January 2003 05:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was not a supporter of either the Irgun or Stern gang.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 20 January 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And when Begin and then Shamir were Prime Minister were you of the view that they are ex-terrorists and the world should have nothing to do with them?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 January 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I was not a supporter of either the Irgun or Stern gang.
Thats good to hear.

But you don't say anything about what is probably the principal source of the whole Israel-Palestine problem: the displacement of Palestinians from their homes since 1948, whose sole crime was not being Jewish.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 20 January 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Smith I have sympathy (more than you will ever know) for the ordinary Palestinian family who suffers because of the acts of a few of his/her countrypeople.

A tedious man sits at his keyboard,
closes his eyes and types,
dreaming of a world,
where he and his people can only ever be victims,
Non-entities they are without out power to command,
every act a reflex
never an intiate
even as they pull on the gear shift and set the bulldozer in motion, or pull the trigger.
What kind of people does he imagine these to be?
All acts are their acts, the all-powerful Palestinians, who with stones and a few onces of explosives can somehow drive into motion these weak and powerless Israelis in their helicopters and fighter aircraft, and in their tanks willess victims,
without thought,
action
or responsibilty,
mere victims,
never actors.

Or at least this is how it is if you keep your eyes tightly shut.

quote:
Smith I have sympathy (more than you will ever know) for the ordinary Palestinian family who suffers because of the acts of a few of his/her countrypeople.

Your sympathy for the Palestinians is so inevident that it is not surpiring that some think it does not exist.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 20 January 2003 05:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did the Americans decide to capture the Taliban and hold criminal trials?

*cough*

You will have missed them, Mishei, but gosh! there have been a whole lot of threads on babble addressing just this problem, and -- surprise! -- John Ashcroft doesn't have a lot of fans hereabouts either! Imagine.

I refer you back to the question WingNut asked earlier. Whatever made you think you could use U.S. wrongs as a way of convincing most babblers that Israel is no worse? Holy macaroni.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 20 January 2003 08:02 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Smith I have sympathy (more than you will ever know) for the ordinary Palestinian family who suffers because of the acts of a few of his/her countrypeople.

And yet you do not realise that the people inflicting the suffering are the very ones you defend. You defend their right to hold or kill people without charge, without trial; you defend their right to "defend" themselves even when the defence leads to "unfortunate" incidents. Which it always does. Always. Inevitably. Innocents die. Old women, old men. Women on their porches. Two thousand people, Mishei. Three hundred children. "Unfortunate."

quote:

I have no sympathy for anyone who would engage in terrorism.

And this is your justification for holding the ordinary people hostage.

quote:

This is not Canada quite right and yes I am as comfortable as you in Toronto. That is why I will not judge what Israelis must do (within reason) to protect themselves.

But you will judge Palestinians with gusto. That is easy for you.

quote:

Did the Americans decide to capture the Taliban and hold criminal trials?

I dont think so. Sheesh ask all those "POWs" in Guantanamo Bay what happened to their homes.


And most of us on Babble rightly despise the Americans for this. Punishing someone without charge is a crime.

quote:

Israel is engaged in a war against terrorism.

You cannot have a war against an "ism." Israel is engaged in a war against a people. This is why it does not hesitate to confiscate their land, to confine them in their homes for days and weeks, to shrug off their suffering and their deaths.

quote:

When we both have to live there for any length of time maybe then we can be more free to complain about the right thing to do.

When you have lived under curfew in the West Bank, perhaps you will be qualified to judge Palestinians guilty with no solid evidence and no trial. Until then, no.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 January 2003 10:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahh yes you are all so high and so omnipotent. Thank God you never have to know the pain of either Israelis or Palestinians. The rub is you think I see only one side...(shaking my head in sadness) ..but you...you see all sides don't you? Ahh yes, you are the soul of the Israeli mother who lost her infant to a suicide murderer and one at the same time you are the heart of Palestinian father whose son has been killed in an Israeli retalliatory raid.

You are wise omnicient and good...you know the way of life what is true and virtuous. You know the Path the Israeli must follow for true peace.

I on the other hand know this...I am here and they are there...we can never know...neither the Palestinian or the Israeli..we can pray and hope that reason and justice will out..

As for you judging me...please if it makes you feel better continue.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 January 2003 11:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of all the posts I have read from you, mishei, that is the one I will choose to remember.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 January 2003 12:08 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The rub is you think I see only one side...(shaking my head in sadness)

What evidence have you provided me that you don't see only one side? Only when we call you on it will you come out with even a token show of sympathy for anyone in this mess who isn't on the Israeli side.

quote:

Ahh yes, you are the soul of the Israeli mother who lost her infant to a suicide murderer and one at the same time you are the heart of Palestinian father whose son has been killed in an Israeli retalliatory raid.

I am a human being. That is all I need to be.

Gotta love the personal attacks and the convenient dodges here. I like how you didn't respond specifically to anything I said. You're a master.

quote:

You are wise omnicient and good...you know the way of life what is true and virtuous.

I'm sorry, am I usurping your soapbox? Do you not like it when other people post sermons?

quote:

I on the other hand know this...I am here and they are there...we can never know...neither the Palestinian or the Israeli..we can pray and hope that reason and justice will out..

Which is why you shouldn't be shrugging off the injustices deliberately done to one side. I'm not asking a hell of a lot here.

quote:

As for you judging me...please if it makes you feel better continue.

What do you think you have done to me in this last post?

Honestly, Mishei. The half-life of your civility can be measured in seconds.

quote:
Of all the posts I have read from you, mishei, that is the one I will choose to remember.

Why?

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 January 2003 07:22 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Becaue it is the first time he spoke sympathetically of Israelis and Palestinians in ths same sentence as though they were both human and deserving of respect.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 08:21 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith, continue to sit in your comfortable home. Continue to use me to vent your rage. This will help assuage your conscience as Palestinians and Israelis continue to die.

I have been consistant here. I have always advocated peaceful negotiaitions but I have not shirked from the right of Israel to defend itself.

I have also supported a Palestinian state but NOT through terrorism.

I pray that the Palestinian people find the courage and world support to rise up against terror and work with those Israelis truly seeking a just negotiated 2 state solution


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 January 2003 08:33 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no idea what you are talking about, Mishei. None.

If it is acceptable for Israel to "defend itself" by carrying out extrajudicial killings and transfers, why is it unacceptable for the Palestinians to do the same? And why must the Palestinians "rise up" against their leadership? Why only them? And why, when most of them are under military occupation and have no opportunity to do so?

I never suggested you were against a two-state solution, or against peace. And as for my "comfortable home" and my "rage," I find that disrespectful. I'd like you to stop speculating about my personal life.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 08:41 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And as for my "comfortable home" and my "rage," I find that disrespectful. I'd like you to stop speculating about my personal life.

It is not speculation.

No one in this country has to face the spectre of homicide bombings; no student need fear getting on a bus and wonder if some zealot will blow it up before she gets to class; no parent lives in terror that following a suicide bomb soldiers will come looking for the murderers and possibly their child will become another retalliatory casualty.

Candians from St. Johns to Victoria may have countless concerns but fearing death from terrorist war and suicide bombings on a daily basis is not one of them.That is what I mean by comfort.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 January 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I get that. I still don't like you bringing my personal life into this. You're in a comfortable home yourself. Don't be a hypocrite.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 08:53 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I get that. I still don't like you bringing my personal life into this. You're in a comfortable home yourself. Don't be a hypocrite.
Yes I do . Note I said "Canadians" . And if you are going to post making judgements on Israelis I believe it is fair game to note the differences between the way we live here and what Israelis and must deal with.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 January 2003 08:54 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, all right. You've both made your point and now it's just bickering. Move on.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 January 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Non-entities they are without out power to command,
every act a reflex
never an intiate
even as they pull on the gear shift and set the bulldozer in motion, or pull the trigger.
What kind of people does he imagine these to be?
All acts are their acts, the all-powerful Palestinians, who with stones and a few onces of explosives can somehow drive into motion these weak and powerless Israelis in their helicopters and fighter aircraft, and in their tanks willess victims,
without thought,
action
or responsibilty,
mere victims,
never actors.

I like this new trend of arguing in free verse.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 21 January 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Getting back to the topic at hand, could the persons (I'm thinking of the military commander who signed the order and perhaps Sharon and the relevant ministers) responsible be charged through the ICC?

I suppose that Palestine doesn't count as a country for ratification, or does it? If it does, then a prosecution could be argued for, since the crime would have taken place within a ratifying country.


And now a question for the Sphinx of Babble, Mishei: were the shoe on the other foot, would you still take the same position? If the situations were completely reversed, with Israeli suicide bombers attacking Palestinian military and civilian targets, and the Palestinians were responding with tanks, helicopters and home demolitions, would you still agree with the actions of the Palestinian government in the face of terrorism?

"I live in Toronto, and don't know what it's really like in Israel/Palestine, so I can't second-guess what the Israeli government has to do to protect its people." (paraphrased, from waaay back up there)

By that argument, you shouldn't be complaining about suicide bombings: from your position in Toronto you don't know what it's like in Israel/Palestine, so you can't second-guess what the Palestinians have to do to gain control of their lives.

Edited for wonky link, can't seem to get it to work. Try a google search for ICC and read the FAQ.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: aRoused ]

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 11:14 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aroused: Let me see if I could be as clear as possible;

I believe that suicide bombing/homicide bombing is mass murder PERIOD.

quote:
By that argument, you shouldn't be complaining about suicide bombings: from your position in Toronto you don't know what it's like in Israel/Palestine, so you can't second-guess what the Palestinians have to do to gain control of their lives.


To a certain extent that is correct. However I have lived in Israel and travel there frequently for extended periods of time.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 21 January 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that bombing is mass murder, including any form of so-called retaliation in which Israel has engaged this past couple of years. It is far worse to shoot fish in a barrel than to kill randomly and commit suicide thereby, not that that is good either.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 21 January 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, both are utterly wrong, so I don't see any point in arguing which is worse.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that bombing is mass murder, including any form of so-called retaliation in which Israel has engaged this past couple of years. It is far worse to shoot fish in a barrel than to kill randomly and commit suicide thereby, not that that is good either.
[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


This kind of moral equivalancy is the worst form of sophistry. Countries are permitted to defend themselves. But here on Babble, ANYTHING Israel tries to protect its citizens is condemned. Why am I not surprised?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 21 January 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You will note that on Babble, most of us oppose
1) The bombing of Afghanistan
2) The old gulf war
3) The upcoming gulf war
4) The current prosecution of the war on terror
5) The Russian war against Chechnya
etc, etc, etc.
These are all examples of things claimed to serve some self-defensive purpose that are nonetheless immoral in the extreme.

Our opposition to Israel's bombing of the West Bank and Gaza fits directly into this. It is not sophistry nor "moral equivalency" (whatever you mean by that), it is based on clear moral principles. I articulated that principle clearly in my post. That it does not suit your goals re Israel cannot possibly concern me. It is the actions of the powerful, even supposedly defending themselves, that concern me more than the desperate, if terrible aggression of the weak.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 11:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You can oppose the tctics of the IDF without putting it on par with those who commit mass murder.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 21 January 2003 11:38 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. I consider them to be mass murder. They are not merely "morally equivalent", they are the same. The settlement enterprise is only one step below, because almost always settlement enterprises result in mass murder--eventually.

Similarly, the upcoming war on Iraq is as bad or worse than the WTC disasters. Clearly.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apples
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posted 21 January 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Similarly, the upcoming war on Iraq is as bad or worse than the WTC disasters. Clearly.


So, given the choice between the worst act of terrorism in American history and overthrowing Saddam Hussein, you'd go for killing Americans? Why am I not surprised.


From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 21 January 2003 12:18 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Neither, you dolt. *plonk*
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 January 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is Saddam Hussein being mixed up with the WTC attacks here? He had nothing to do with those attacks. The only connection between the two that I've been able to detect is Chenefeld.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 21 January 2003 12:23 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They're linked because people have claimed that they are and for no other reason. I am dealing with the claims at face value, in order to say that even if the claims are true, my moral position stands.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 21 January 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
satana: But you don't say anything about what is probably the principal source of the whole Israel-Palestine problem: the displacement of Palestinians from their homes since 1948, whose sole crime was not being Jewish.

quote:
Mishei: ... peaceful negotiaitions ... 2 state solution
Nice words, Mishei, but you're still avoiding the real issue.

So, I'll answer for you and you can correct me if I'm wrong:
Any non-Jewish people displaced by Israel do not have any rights to restitution. Jewish privileges in Israel are absolutely above all human rights, international law or any claim by any non-Zionists.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 January 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for Saddam Hussein, I'm all for getting rid of him. But this war isn't about terrorism (many other states have MUCH tighter links to al-Qaeda), and it is not about getting rid of him - not without carrying off a few million innocents who are unlucky enough to live under him.

When Bush can come up with a reason for this war that doesn't make me laugh, I'll support it. Honesty. That's all I want.

quote:
This kind of moral equivalancy is the worst form of sophistry. Countries are permitted to defend themselves.

If the IDF were defending ISRAEL, I'd support its behaviour - well, much more. But if it's defending the SETTLEMENTS, which have no right to be there in the first place. (Retaliation and collective punishments are not defence. Sorry.) You claim to be against the settlements, and yet you don't seem to make a distinction between them and Israel proper...well, I see a distinction. I don't think innocent blood should be spilled in the defence of something that shouldn't exist.

quote:

But here on Babble, ANYTHING Israel tries to protect its citizens is condemned.

That is not true. Israel's cruel retaliatory policies do not protect its citizens one bit. They just fertilize the next crop of suicide bombers.

Israel has choices. The IDF has choices. The average Israeli, who is immensely richer and more mobile than the average Palestinian, has choices. You, Mishei, put the entire onus on the Palestinians to bring about peace. But even you know that the settlements and the military occupation are unjust. Why is it all right to perpetuate this injustice? How does this make Israel safer? And why is it worse to kill 700 Israelis than to kill 2000 Palestinians? Is it because the Israelis don't use suicide bombers? Why is one kind of violent death so much more unjust than all the others? Why is injustice only injustice when other people commit it?

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 21 January 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
here on Babble, ANYTHING Israel tries to protect its citizens is condemned. Why am I not surprised?

Oh. I missed this on first reading. I must call it to the moderator's attention.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 January 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah yeah, I saw it. There's a certain amount of histrionics that I've gotta let go, otherwise every other post would be "moderation" from me.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 January 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle! You cruel, heartless betrayer of my soul!!!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 January 2003 03:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha! I didn't mean YOU were being histrionic! (although that last post...hee hee)
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei and Apples, don't even bother arguing.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way, how well are Palestinian refugees living in surrounding Arab lands ?
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 21 January 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your down and out cousin sleeps in your bed, while you sleep on the couch, is that it?
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pardon ?
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How come there were no suicide bombers when Egypt and Jordan controlled the west bank and the gaza strip ?
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 January 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, obviously a Palestinian who isn't living in Palestine isn't living very well (exceptions made for those who have been able to move to, eg, the U.S.).

Or are you saying, Cracker Jack, that it doesn't matter where we put these people because an Arab is an Arab; they're all the same; and therefore we can just ship them about that vast region? Hmmmn?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 03:46 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, I would expect no less from you to try to bring up some kind of racism.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 January 2003 03:50 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I don't see what you're getting at. Or rather, I do, but it's the old equivalency argument again. Nobody's particularly nice to the Palestinians. That doesn't make it okay. And you'd think that the people who pushed and continue to push them off their land would accept a little more responsibility for that fact, really.

As for Apples, I'd love it if he actually argued. His current debating style is more cheap-shot-and-run than debate.

[ 21 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 January 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
skdadl, I would expect no less from you to try to bring up some kind of racism.

Gee, and you know me so well, too.

Beyond that, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. As anyone who's been reading babble longer than you appear to have been will know, I'm not exactly a fan of the U.S. puppet states in the region.

But I don't believe in ethnic cleansing, either.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 03:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh. I missed this on first reading. I must call it to the moderator's attention.


OOOO yes was i a baaaaaaaaad boy????

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 January 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How come there were no suicide bombers when Egypt and Jordan controlled the west bank and the gaza strip ?

Becaue they weren't imprisoning, beating, starving and firing missiles into the population, maybe?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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Babbler # 3601

posted 21 January 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh okay. So Israel just beats and tortures palestinians for the fun of it. And then the suicide bombings began. Gotcha.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 January 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But Mishei. You have misread me.

If you read that exchange over again carefully, you will see that I was distressed that what you described had been happening. Here. On babble. Which would be wrong. Clearly.

Such things shouldn't be happening. I wasn't criticizing you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 21 January 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Pardon ?

I mean that although one is obliged to comfort and help displaced persons, one is not obliged to hand over the keys to your house to them. The Palestinian refugees, were accepted by their Arab neighbours, much to the chagrin of the population, who have enough toubles of their own. It was the understanding that their presence would be temporary.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 January 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Israel just beats and tortures palestinians for the fun of it.

Sure, if you say so. I always thought it was because they had stryed down the path of oppression and most were looking for an exit. But if you say it is for the fun of it, who am I to disagree. Which of course would suggest sadism. No, I do disagree. There might be sadists within the IDF but I wouldn't think they would be representative of the typical Israeli. You, maybe ... I don't know ...

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 21 January 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Palestinian refugees, were accepted by their Arab neighbours, much to the chagrin of the population

Good old Jordan. Not only were they neighborly enough to take in their Palestinian brothers, they also carved themselves a good chunk of Palestinian territory too...obviously to keep it safe from the Israeli expansionist warmongers.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 04:13 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or maybe, just maybe, Israel decided to take these measures after being attacked time and time again.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 04:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Welcome aboard Cracker Jack...nice to have a friend of Israel around
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, don't you worry. Common sense will prevail.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 January 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Cracker Jack, the Ontario Conservative Party called - they want their lawn sign back.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 January 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh, Mishei: I was about to send the following to Cracker Jack:

Cracker Jack, meeting you has made me appreciate Mishei. Seriously.

But, I mean, now ... never mind.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You see Skdadl, that's your problem...I see crackerjack as one of the few allies on israel. Doesn't mean I agree with all he posts but atleast he has an appreciation for what Israelis go through.

I think you will agree that by and large most babblers are pro-Palestinian. When i see a potential kindred soul (even a tainted one )I glomb on as would anyone in my position.

So Skdadl, crackerjack may not always be right (for that matter either are you or I) but on some issues pertaining to Israel he is quite correct.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey is this Yuk Yuks ? You two are soooo funny
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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Babbler # 3601

posted 21 January 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, just one thing.....I am always right
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 04:47 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this Yuk Yuks ? You two are soooo funny.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 January 2003 04:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Careful Cracker Jack, don't lose whatever friends you may have here. Egos are made to be broken
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 04:53 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, twas a joke.
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 21 January 2003 04:53 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A sentiment so nice, he repeated it twice. How kind.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
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posted 21 January 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this Yuk Yuks ? You two are sooo funny.

Three times.


From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 January 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'see, Mishei, that's your problem. I don't look for allies when I write.

(Well: let me revise that: a lot of the time I am exceptionally tired, so it's really nice to be able to quote one of my more clever and fluent "allies" rather than to compose m'self. Doesn't that happen to us all?)

I'm not entirely sure what an ally for me would be on this issue, I have to tell you. There are things I really object to, so I speak about them, but I'm not sure I have a party (except for the anti-oppression-and-mass-murder party).

Now, maybe I'm being unfair to you Mishei, and you tell me if I am ... but one of my reasons for keeping an eye out for your posts has to do with my irrational hatred for ... PR. Marketing. Sheesh: the marketing department ruined my life. Man, do I have some memories about those guys and the way they work.

And then there's the realpolitik thing, all those guys of my cohort -- and gosh, Mishei, I think yours too -- who kept explaining to me how naive I was not to want to grow up to be Henry Kissinger too ...

And if, by chance, my reading of the party lines (ick!) I run into on the Middle East threads happens to coincide with that of -- my goodness! -- a whole lot of other babblers' readings -- well, amn't I lucky. But that's not what runs my writing, Mishei.

I fall on my own face, for free. In fact, that's why I do it. Freedom. Yay. One day.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 21 January 2003 06:00 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(Well, this explains why Mishei never reproached DJStealth, back in the day. An ally is hard to find, and better an explicitly racist, hatemongering ally than none at all, eh? No dissent within the ranks.)

As for common sense, well, it seems like common sense to me to stop aggravating the situation by plunking down swimming pools right by the homes of people who live on $2 a day and have barely enough water to drink, or confiscating land for reasons of "security," or blocking the way of ambulances...but hey, maybe that's just me. Common sense means waiting for all those darn poor people to rise up and stop being so mean to the nice, sweet Israelis. My mistake.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
cynic
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posted 21 January 2003 06:31 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It does seem futile to jump into any thread about Israel, but what the hell...

If I understand the arguments for the actions of the IDF in using overwhelming force in dealing with suspected suicide bombers, is that the threat is so extreme that only extreme measures can work to stop them. Arguments put forward by people such as Mishei on this thread suggest (to me, anyway) that protecting the human rights of suspected terrorists is secondary to the protection of innocents in the line of fire. It was said that the dangers Israelis face is all but unimaginable to our insulated North American minds. I would like to put forward a scenario that challenges this.

Consider a place where criminal gangs run all but unmolested through large areas of a major metropolitan region such as Detroit. These gangs deal in drugs and prostitution, enforcing their will with indiscriminate violence. Thousands of innocent civilians are trapped in this area due to poverty and the unwillingness of the authorities to deal with the situation. Like Jews in Israel, the citizens of this area are afraid to leave their homes, never knowing when the next random drive-by shooting will occur. Children are told to sleep under their beds, lest random gunfire fly through their thin walls and kill them in their sleep. These people may never see peace in their lives, so should their government begin attacking suspected gang hideouts with helicopter gunships? Should the Detroit police begin targeted killings of gang members? Is there a difference in the morality in this as compared to the actions of the IDF?

The suggestion that the threat facing the Israelis justifies illegal and immoral actions is wrong. Suicide bombings are a brutal criminal act. Meeting this threat with measured and just actions can preserve the integrity of the Israeli state. Committing equally brutal attacks on accused and the family members of the accused cannot possibly lead to peace and stability. If Israel is truly a land of justice and integrity, the criminal acts of suicide bombing should be met with dedicated police investigations, and not bulldozers.


From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apples
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posted 21 January 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for Apples     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What an apt analogy. Detroit gangs and Palestinians. You seem to forget that the gangs in Detroit do not have the popular support of the people, traffic in, as you said, drugs and prostitution (not explosive belts), and are constantly fighting amongst themselves.

The Palestinians are, for the most part, united in trying to kill as many Israelis as possible, have the popular support of the majority, and exist only to launch indiscriminate attacks against the civilian population of a neighbouring country for the sole purpose of creating as much destruction as possible.


From: no | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 21 January 2003 06:42 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Palestinians are, for the most part, united in trying to kill as many Israelis as possible, have the popular support of the majority, and exist only to launch indiscriminate attacks against the civilian population of a neighbouring country for the sole purpose of creating as much destruction as possible.

Did you just leave out the word "terrorist," or are you actually that blatant a racist?

The Palestinians don't exist to attack anything. They exist because they exist. You mean the terrorists, I presume, who, even if there are thousands of them, make up a tiny proportion of the overall population.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 January 2003 06:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

The Palestinians ... exist only to launch indiscriminate attacks against the civilian population of a neighbouring country for the sole purpose of creating as much destruction as possible.

*cough*

Moderator.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 January 2003 06:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for that well-considered post, cynic. You have lots of cred here.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 January 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For cripes sakes, I can't go to class for two frigging hours without everything going catawampus.

Apples, stop making racist generalizations about Palestinians or you will be asked to leave the Middle East forum for a while.

Everyone else, get back on the topic of whether Israel is committing a war crime rather than this meta-topic about who is whose babble Middle East Forum ally (start a thread in rabble reactions if you want to discuss it), or I'll close the thread. It's getting long anyhow.

Have a lovely evening.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 22 January 2003 04:11 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is a crime against humanity. Its continued existence as Zionist state is a crime in itself.

Mishei and friends are supremacists, and as they are suggesting, it seems there is no common ground to discuss anything with them.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3393

posted 22 January 2003 04:57 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did you just leave out the word "terrorist," or are you actually that blatant a racist?

I think we really have to look at the whole 'terrorist,' 'soldier' and 'civilian' concepts, as they are concieved in the common language. I think that by falling into these frameworks, especially the 'terrorst' moniker, we are allowing ourselves to fall into the trap inherent in the language of the ruling ideology.

It is Bushspeak.

Is there some other way to discuss these subjects?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 22 January 2003 08:21 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is a crime against humanity. Its continued existence as Zionist state is a crime in itself.
Mishei and friends are supremacists, and as they are suggesting, it seems there is no common ground to discuss anything with them.


Moderator, if Apples statement bordered on racism (failing his clarification) this quote is both libelous and racist . Satana is malignining an entire people and nation while one at the same time libeling me and others as racists.

My understanding of Babble rules clearly makes this a violation of policy.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 January 2003 08:45 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just woke up.

Satana, knock off calling Mishei and his "friends" supremacists. It's over the top, ad hominem, and against babble policy.

Regarding calling the State of Israel a war crime. I'll give Mishei that too, even though I know he was saying that Israel as a political state should not exist (which is a reasonable enough political opinion) rather than that all the people IN Israel should not exist. So technically he was not maligning an entire people, he was criticizing a political entity.

But I know damn well that if someone came along and said that "Iran is a war crime" or "Afghanistan is a war crime and shouldn't exist" that just about everyone would be up in arms hopping up and down about it, and likely a moderator would step in.

So I'm stepping in. Satana, stop personally attacking Mishei and be a little more clear about what exactly you mean when you talk about an entire nation so that it can't be mistaken for wanting them as a people not to exist, okay?

Another 6 posts and I get to close this thread. Woo hoo!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 22 January 2003 08:46 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mmm hmm. Saying that a people exists only to commit murder "borders on" racism, but saying that a state that privileges one people over another is a crime is the blackest blasphemy?

Mishei, I think you've got the two mixed up.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 22 January 2003 10:07 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Smith, like Michelle, I am reserving judgement and waiting to see if Apples clarifies his post.

While I know it is hard, you too should wait before casting any further aspersions.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 January 2003 11:04 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, I didn't reserve my judgment on Apples' post. It was out-and-out racist and I told him so quite clearly, I thought.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3601

posted 22 January 2003 11:14 AM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A poll taken shows that over 70 % of palestinians support suicide bombings. A tiny fraction ? I think not...
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 22 January 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And most Israelis support Sharon, does that mean most Israelis support butchery?

Another poll showed most Palestinians and Israelis prefer a peaceful resolution and an end to violence. Where does that leave us?

Or rather, how does that reconcile with your racist attitudes?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 22 January 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Michelle, quite right. Although I am hoping that Apples will clarify (ie he meant to refer to "terrorits" as opposed to Palestinians in general). If not I am with you on this one.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cracker Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3601

posted 22 January 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You mean how does that reconcile your anti-semitic views ?
From: South Central | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 January 2003 12:04 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To be anti-semitic I would have to have an irrational hatred of an entire people based solely on their faith. As it is, I only despise you. And not as a person as I don't know you. But rather the bile you spill over these threads trying to portray all Palestinians as terrorists in order to justify brutal treatment against them.

Anti-semites often try to portray Jews a sless than human. It allows their followers to see past the person and instead attack a thing. That is the same hatred you express against Palestinians when you portray them al as terrorists deserving of mistreatment.

And your only response is to call me anti-semetic. So be it. But I would speak in defence of Jews with the same vigor in strength I would speak in defence of Palestinians under the same circumstances. That is the difference. Unlike you, my opinions are not shaped by hate.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 January 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stop calling each other racists and anti-Semites. Now.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 22 January 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Maybe it's time once again for a game of "Spot the Nazi"? Michelle can start - a while back she wanted to be the Feminazi but my wife has claimed that title. So Michelle can be the Church Lady Nazi. I am the Book Nazi.

Next?


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 January 2003 12:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nah. The way things are going, I'm gonna have to be the Dominatrix Middle East Moderator Nazi.

Better yet, I think I'll close the thread since it's around a hundred posts now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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