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Author Topic: Israeli Election
Mycroft_
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posted 16 January 2003 08:43 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The latest results of Haaretz' poll:

Likud (Sharon/centre right) 29-30 (+2-3)
Labour (Mitzna/centre left) 20 (-4)
Shinui (anti-religious/centre) 16 (-1)
Shas (religious/centre right) 12 (-1)
National Union (right) 10 (+1)
Meretz (left Zionist) 8-9 (n.c to +1)
United Torah Judaism (relgious right) 6 (+1)
National Relgious Party (religious right) 4 (nc)
Yisrael Balyiah (Russian/centre-right) 3 (nc)
United Arab List (Arab) 3 (+1)
Hadash (Communist/Arab) 3 (-1)
Balad (Arab) 2 (nc)
One Nation (centrist) 2 (nc)
Green Leaf (marijuana/left) 2 (+2)

[ 16 January 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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josh
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posted 16 January 2003 10:07 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm glad to see the pot party doing so well. If everyone around there started partaking, maybe peace and justice would break out.
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Briguy
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posted 16 January 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Shinui (anti-religious/centre) 16 (-1)

I would call this the (secular/centre) party, but that's just my atheistic bias coming through.


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Mycroft_
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posted 16 January 2003 10:18 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I was going to use the term "anti-clerical" but I thought it might be a bit obscure but they are definitely anti-clerical in the tradition of 19th and early 20th century liberal anti-clerical parties and movements (particularly in Catholic countries such as France, Italy and Spain). They aren't just secular because they take a very strong position against the religious parties and for the secularisation of Israeli society.
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josh
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posted 16 January 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mitzna's problem: The party, not him:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J6A512F13

I think Labour has been so tarnished by its role in the disgraceful "unity" government, that significant number of "swing" voters have no faith in anything it stands for. Unfortunately, Shinui, not Meretz, is filling that vacuum.

Or is the problem both leader and party:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L13621F13

[ 16 January 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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josh
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posted 17 January 2003 04:03 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An excellent article which explains why the task for the left in the upcoming election is almost impossible:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030203&c=1&s=schenker

[ 17 January 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 19 January 2003 08:52 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli Left lets slip its chance of victory from the Observer.
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josh
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posted 19 January 2003 09:33 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The end of Labor?:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R5D215523

I agree. If Labor were to finish in third, the party could split with its left joining Meretz in the new Social Democratic Party, and the right forming a center party in alliance with Sharon.


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josh
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posted 20 January 2003 09:19 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A switch to save Labor?:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2C632723

The same thing was talked about two years ago in the Sharon-Barak contest. Won't happen. Besides, Peres is a five-time loser.


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lagatta
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posted 20 January 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With respect to "anti-clerical" to describe Shinui, Judaism doesn't really have a clergy in the same sense that Catholicism does. But perhaps "secularising" - for a secularised society in that they refuse the absurd privileges granted the ultra-orthodox. A serious problem in Israel. I have Israeli friends who were spat on because they weren't decently dressed according to ultra-orthodox standards - the friends weren't walking arount in bikinis either. The pivotal role played by the religious parties creates a lot of resentment.

However, in many respects Shinui is very right wing. Wasn't its leader a kind of "shock jock"? Spouting off racism about Arabs, misogynistic jokes about battered women, etc?

It would be interesting to see whether Shinui can make inroads into the Russian community.


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vderi
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posted 20 January 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for vderi        Edit/Delete Post
January 19, 2003
Israel Waits for Godot
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


TEL AVIV =97 Maybe the most telling fact in this coming Israeli election is that at this moment of intense crisis, a tiny Israeli party, Green Leaf, which advocates the legalization of marijuana, could win one or two seats in the new parliament. Green Leaf's motto might as well be: since every other solution has been tried and failed, why not just get high?

I've covered a lot of Israeli elections, but I have never seen one like this. I've never seen the Israeli public less interested in the two major parties - indeed, in the whole event. The reasons are not hard to discern. The last two years of suicide bombings and collapsed peace have knocked the stuffing out of this place.

It is not that Israelis are about to surrender. The Palestinian fantasy that the Jews will just pick up and leave if you turn the heat up on them high enough was so wrong, so foolish. (You should see the number of concerts and theater and dance performances in Tel Aviv on any given evening.) Nevertheless, there is a deep and growing sense among Israelis of "No Exit," a sense that every idea has been tried - peace overtures, crackdowns, settlements, targeted killings, the left-wing solution and the right-wing solution, and nothing works. As an Israeli friend told me over dinner: "You look at your kids and your grandkids now and you ask yourself: What if it never ends?"

This anguish helps explain some of the bizarre politics surrounding the Jan. 28 vote - and not only the emergence of the make-dope-not-war Green Leaf party. While all the polls show Mr. Sharon's Likud Party gaining the most votes, it seems to be more out of old loyalties and a sense that Mr. Sharon is a better shield for Israelis to hide behind than out of any conviction that he has any solutions.

Meanwhile, Likud's main rival, the Labor Party under Amram Mitzna, has the plan most Israelis prefer: separation from the Palestinians. But pessimism that any plan will work anymore has limited Mr. Mitzna's appeal. "People are in fear - they are in a psychology of shock," Mr. Mitzna told me as we rode around one morning. "They have lost confidence that you are able to negotiate with the other side, so they stick to what they know - even if it is not working. What I am trying to bring is logic and the truth, but people are thinking from their guts."

Because neither Labor nor Likud will win enough parliament seats to rule alone, they will be more dependent than ever on the small parties, with their narrow primordial agendas: from the anti-religious parties to the ultrareligious parties, to the pro-Israeli Arab parties, to the Israeli Russian parties, to the pro-Sephardic Jews party.

What is amazing is that these smaller tribal parties are likely to get more than half the seats in the next parliament. So more than half of the next parliament will consist of parties that offer the wider society no answers to its deepest national concerns: the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the economy, the social divisions. It is as if America was having an election in the midst of the Civil War, and more than half the parties had no position on slavery.

This is not an accident. Israelis actually favor, by a large majority, a national unity government. They want to feel united. But in the absence of a leader or party that can offer that, many retreat into tribal dens that are built around one Israeli tribe negating the other - secular versus the religious, Sephardic Orthodox versus Ashkenazi Orthodox, Russian immigrants versus everybody else.

"Israelis are skeptical about peace right now, but they badly want a border," says Moshe Halbertal, an Israeli philosopher. "They want a border so that any Palestinian in the West Bank can't just walk over and kill an Israeli. They want an end to this war of all against all where there is no front line. They don't expect peace with the Palestinians, but they want a front for the war with Palestinians. They want a border for a Jewish democratic state. . . .

"But I think," he added, "that they would also like a leader with a serious domestic national agenda, someone who has ideas on how Israelis can live together and heal all of the internal divisions - someone who would be culturally inclusive, religiously respectful, educationally compassionate and diplomatically hardheaded. They are looking for an Israeli Third Way."

In short, the leader Israelis crave is someone who can both build a border with the Palestinians and take down the borders among the Jews. Unfortunately, the Messiah is not on the ballot in this election.

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company


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josh
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posted 20 January 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shinui tends to be neo-liberal in its economics. To me, that's why its rise is a decidedly mixed blessing.
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lagatta
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posted 20 January 2003 11:29 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, its leader (forget his name - good article in the Guardian) is an outright admirer of Thatcher. But the privileges accorded to the ultra-Orthodox are a very serious problem in Israeli society.
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josh
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posted 20 January 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tommy Lapid.
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Mycroft_
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posted 20 January 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
since every other solution has been tried and failed, why not just get high?

Could work. Israel depresses me. I know that sounds trite considering people are getting their houses demolished, shot down in the streets or blown up.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 20 January 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
According to Ha'aretz there's some pressure to replace Mitzna with Peres as Labour's candidate for PM because polls show Peres would win 29 seats compared to Mitzna's 20.

If the 78 year old Peres pulls it off perhaps this will inspire Chretien to move to Israel and enter politics. At 66 he'd still have a long career ahead of him.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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lagatta
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posted 20 January 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He'd pretty much have to convert to Judaism, which would be a bit strange in light of his family name.

[ 20 January 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 21 January 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Three Likud Activists Indicted For Bribery
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Mycroft_
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posted 22 January 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ha'aretz survey - Likud: 31, Labor: 18-19 seats By Yossi Verter and Moti Basok, Ha'aretz Correspondents, and Ha'aretz Service

Less than a week before the elections, the Likud Party and right wing block are showing their strength. A survey conducted by Dialog for Ha'aretz, under the direction of Professor Camil Fuchs, predicts 31 seats for Likud, while its rival Labor Party is projected to win between 18 and 19 seats.

The poll projects 66 seats for the right wing block, as compared to 36 seats for parties on the left and 18 seats for the center.

More than 400,000 Israelis who currently reside outside the country are registered on the voter rolls, representing a 9-percent gap between the Israeli residents and non-residents eligible to vote for the 16th Knesset, the Central Bureau of Statistics said Wednesday.

Some 4.3 million Israeli residents are eligible to vote in next Tuesday's election, as well as 420,000 others whose names appear on the registration lists but don't live in the country.

Absentee balloting is limited to diplomats and the navy, meaning Israelis who live abroad are not allowed to vote unless they make a special trip back home on election day.

Statistics bureau representatives noted, however, that not all the 420,000 non-residents are necessarily eligible to vote, saying it's likely that some of them have died without the Interior Ministry's knowledge.

According to Israeli law, all Israeli citizens with a national identity card are eligible to vote. Although the voting itself must take place inside the country, the voters are not required to be permanent residents.

But while some Israelis who have moved abroad fly into Israel to exercise their right to vote, others fly out to take advantage of the time off from work on Election Day.

More than 10,000 Israelis are expected to be out of the country on January 28, with some using the day off from work to extend a weekend vacation abroad. According to the Airports Authority, several skiing tours are scheduled to leave the country on Saturday, and 67 flights are scheduled for takeoff on Sunday.

"No one is giving up their ski holiday or a weekend vacation for these elections," a travel representative said this week. "On the contrary, there is even more travel planned for the weekend before the elections than in previous weeks."

Nineteen percent of Israeli residents eligible to vote have immigrated since 1990. Thirteen percent of Israeli residents eligible to vote are Arab. Arabs living in East Jerusalem, Druze living in the Golan Heights and former Southern Lebanese Army members are not included in the numbers because they are not eligible to vote.

The discrepancy between resident and non-resident voters is particularly sharp in Tel Aviv, where the gap is 66,000 people, or about 23 percent. Bat Yam and Jerusalem place second and third, at a 20-percent and 17-percent gap respectively.



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josh
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posted 22 January 2003 03:55 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well that's a bummer. But certainly not unexpected.

Ye shall reap what ye have sown.


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Moredreads
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posted 23 January 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Rabbis in Israel helped save a marriage by advising a woman not to vote in a general election on Jan. 28 after her husband threatened to divorce her if she voted for the center-left Labor Party.

Confirming a report in the Maariv newspaper, Rabbi Menashe Miller told Reuters that the couple had turned to a rabbinical court in the port city of Haifa for arbitration.

"I fought for this country and I will not accept my wife voting against my will," the husband, who plans to vote for the right-wing Likud party, was quoted as saying by Maariv.

It quoted the rabbis as saying they were sure "the head of any party would be happy to lose her vote in the name of marital bliss."


Excite


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josh
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posted 23 January 2003 04:30 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Theocracy or democracy?


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Michelle
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posted 23 January 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good LORD.

See, you know your marriage is over ANYHOW if it comes to that! Unbelievable!

Who'd WANT to stay married to a creep like that!


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lagatta
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posted 23 January 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's amazing what people will stay married to.

I remember, when I was a young person fired in a union organising drive, a representative of one of the Cegep (college) teachers' unions was, and remained, the wife of the creep manager who had sacked me, and subsequently rose to senior management in the firm.

Disgusting.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 23 January 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Everyone should just vote for the Pot Party. I would. If more people just smoke dope, this world would be a much better place.
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Michelle
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posted 23 January 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder why she didn't just vote, TELL him she voted for Likud, and then vote for another party? It is a secret ballot, isn't it?

That's what I'd have done.

Well, no, actually, what I would have done is tell him to go fuck himself. But hey, that's just me.

Cracker Jack, amazingly enough, we agree on something. Pot party it is!


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Moredreads
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posted 23 January 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Everyone should just vote for the Pot Party. I would. If more people just smoke dope, this world would be a much better place.

Finally your on track, now all we need is a militant pot party.


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Cracker Jack
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posted 23 January 2003 05:48 PM      Profile for Cracker Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, this is what I'm talking about. People fight and disagree on everything, but pot brings everyone together.
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Moredreads
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posted 23 January 2003 06:06 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, it gives me the 'noids.'
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Briguy
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posted 23 January 2003 09:12 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"I fought for this country and I will not accept my wife voting against my will," the husband, who plans to vote for the right-wing Likud party, was quoted as saying by Maariv.


I believe the word is patriocracy. What a creep.


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Michelle
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posted 23 January 2003 09:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know! Can you imagine?
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Mycroft_
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posted 26 January 2003 07:42 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sharon worried he might not be able to set up
stable gov't
PM concerned by Labor Party's pledge not to join unity gov't and Shinui's refusal not to sit with the ultra-Orthodox parties.
By Amnon Barzilai

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is worried that he might not be able to set up a stable government after the elections, associates of the prime minister said Saturday.

Publicly, Sharon continues to express confidence in his ability to set up a broad coalition in which either Labor or Shinui would constitute the left flank. Privately, however, he is worried that this might not be possible, given Labor's pledge not to join a unity government led by him and Shinui's consistent refusal to sit in a government with the ultra-Orthodox parties.

While a narrow right-wing government would be possible, Sharon believes that it would lead to an economic and diplomatic crisis and consequent early elections. Such a government would make it impossible for him to advance the diplomatic program he favors - acceptance of U.S. President George Bush's vision of a Palestinian state - and would therefore also probably result in the U.S. refusing Israel's request for $12 billion in special aid, his associates said. And without this assistance - $4 billion in defense aid and $8 billion in loan guarantees - the economic crisis will become even more severe, they said.

The Likud has therefore decided on a new slogan for the final days of the campaign that ends this Tuesday: "A strong Mahal or yet another election," using the three-letter Hebrew word that symbolizes Likud on the ballot slips.

The Likud believes that in order to set up a stable government, it must have at least 35 to 36 seats. The latest polls published on Friday, however, showed it receiving only 32 to 33 seats. Likud Minister Roni Milo predicted Saturday that this level of support will mean new elections within 12 to 18 months.

"There is no argument that we will have a blocking majority [that would prevent Labor Chairman Amram Mitzna from forming a government]," one senior Likud official said yesterday. "It is clear that the Likud will win a technical victory. The Likud's problem is how to translate that technical victory into [victory on] the parliamentary playing field."

"The option of a [narrow] right-wing government ... is not a good one," he continued. "We see enormous dangers in it. Therefore, I am forced to say that we don't see a government [after the elections]."

"I have spoken about this with Sharon, and what I am telling you absolutely reflects his views," the official added.

The Likud has been particularly concerned by the steady flight of voters from Labor to Shinui over the past few weeks, which could even result in the latter beating out Labor for the title of the second-largest Knesset faction. Because Shinui's growing strength frightens religious voters, party sources explained, many are now switching their support from Likud to Shas, which they perceive as the best counterweight to the militantly anti-religious Shinui.

Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert met on Friday with Shinui leader Yosef (Tommy) Lapid, but denied that they discussed Shinui joining the government after the elections.

Over the next few days, Likud will be making last-ditch efforts to get voters to switch to it from other right-wing parties. On Friday, Sharon dispatched ministers and MKs to various locations to help recruit voters. He also decided to increase the party's election day budget by hundreds of thousands of shekels and to expand the telephone hotlines at campaign headquarters.

Today, he will attend two election rallies: one for immigrants in Karmiel and the other in Haifa.


[ 26 January 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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josh
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posted 26 January 2003 07:43 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon may not be able to form a stable government, but he certainly can form an unstable government.
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Moredreads
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posted 26 January 2003 07:49 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Disorder is his natural environment.
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josh
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posted 27 January 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The day before. Getting ready to step into the abyss:


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030127/wl_nm/israel_election_dc_5


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Mycroft_
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posted 27 January 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The whole thing depresses me. I'm thinking of moving to Israel just to set up a firm encouraging people to emigrate to Canada and elsewhere... except all that would do is reduce the number of secular Jews (since they are most likely to leave) and increase the strength of the religious right.

Almost makes me wish the messiah would come already and tell religious fundamentalists on all sides that they are wrong and should just get along.


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josh
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posted 27 January 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hear you! Maybe what is needed is another year or two of this mess before enough voters come to their senses. Unfortunately, there will be a lot more pain during that time.
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josh
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posted 27 January 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz poll confirms likely outcome:

http://tinyurl.com/4yk2

http://tinyurl.com/4ykf

For those keeping score:

Right Secular: 44

Religious (right): 23

Center: 16

Arab (left): 9

Left (Jewish): 28

[ 27 January 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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josh
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posted 27 January 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon benefitted from American "charity":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47143-2003Jan26.html

Why do I have the feeling that Netanyahu will be prime minister before the year is out?


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 09:29 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fall of Labor:

http://tinyurl.com/4zrn


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 09:39 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Turnout low so far. Not a good sign.

http://tinyurl.com/4zs8


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 02:26 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Latest update: Turnout 7% lower than '99, primarily among Arabs and Russians. Polls close in about 90 minutes.
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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exit polls from Israel's Channels 1 and 2:

Likud: 34-36 seats
Labor: 17-18 seats
Shinui: 14-17 seats
Shas: 9-13 seats
Meretz: 5-7 seats.

About as bad as could be expected, especially the Meretz numbers.


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The right bloc could get up to as much as 72 seats. As low as 67. Turnout might be an all-time low for a parliamentary election.

Rumblings that Sharon might offer to enter into talks with Palestinians as an inducement for Labor and Shinui to enter into a "unity" government.

Projections on the right-hand column:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/

[ 28 January 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really depressing. Thanks, Josh, for all your news coverage.

Unfortunately, Mycroft, a lot of secular, non-fanatical Israelis have or are planning to emigrate. (Ironically, even to Germany!). They are welcome here but it is true, that increases the percentage of militarists and religious nuts. I would also think a lot of Palestinians are leaving for similar reasons, if they can. One group that has emigrated en masse are Palestinian Christians, caught between the military occupation and militant Islam.

One amusing elections note - a former Montrealer is a candidate for the pro-marijuana "Green Leaf" party. Believe it or not, the fellow's name is Goldenblatt.


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Mycroft_
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posted 28 January 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the rate of Palestinian emigration is lower both due to lack of means and the stigma of abandoning the cause. A similar stigma against emigration existed among Israelis - the Hebrew word for an immigrating to Israel is alyiah or "to ascend" and an immigrant is an olim "an ascendent", the word for emigration is yordim or "to go down" - but this stigma has faded as the number of emigrants grow and includes "names" such as grandchildren of Ben Gurion and Begin and a son of Moshe Arens. There is a joke about an Israeli entering a New York elevator. Another Israeli at the elevator controls asks "going down?" (Yordim?) to which the first Israeli replies "of course not, I'm just here temporarily!"
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Polunatic
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posted 28 January 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC - Sharon's Likud wins plurality in Israel election
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posted 28 January 2003 05:15 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One projection has Herut (the furthest right of the parties) getting two seats. Ugh!
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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I hope Channel 1's prediction is wrong. The other two are not as bad. Interesting that the Arab parties remain at 10 seats in all projections. So which voters didn't turn out? Could it be left of centre Jews who have just given up, at least for now?

Mycroft, it looks like the Herut numbers would come out of National Union. Not much difference between the two. Lieberman. Kleiner. They both suck.


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Jimmy Brogan
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posted 28 January 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With Mitzna saying catagorically he will not make a deal with Sharon, what is the coalition likely to look like?

Could Labour split over this?


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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 05:34 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mycroft: I think the rate of Palestinian emigration is lower both due to lack of means and the stigma of abandoning the cause.
What's really sad is from what I've heard, if Jordan opened its borders today the west bank would probably be emptied of half its Palestinian population by tomorrow.

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Mycroft_
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posted 28 January 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha'aretz has Mitzna saying he'll resign as Labour Chairman if the poor seat projections are borne out in the results. If he does resign then he won't be in a position to implement his promise. Labour may split over joining a Sharon government unless Sharon agrees to some sort of specific agenda over a limited (say 18 month) period before new elections and perhaps they'll join Shinui in insisting on a coalition without the far right and religious parties.
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posted 28 January 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Labor could split over this. Sharon is now making noises about entering into peace talks if Labor will come one board. He desparately does not want a right-wing government because that would cause conflicts with the U.S.

Labor would be stupid it to agree. First, Sharon will be fooling them as he did before. Second, the only way they can come back is to be in opposition. Does anyone really think Sharon will agree to a true Palestinian state?


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satana
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posted 28 January 2003 05:53 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What happens if they can't create a majority government?
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posted 28 January 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New elections. Of course if we have endless new elections and the continuing down sprial of the economy in Israel we could see the "Weimarisation" of Israeli poltics. Certainly there are some parties on the right, and certainly among the religous, who doubt the merit of democracy and would prefer either a Torah state or a... well maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic. Nevertheless, do not underestimate the danger of Israel becoming ungovernable.
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posted 28 January 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't see what Labour accomplished in the last government. Sharon did exactly what he wanted to, and gained the luster of a broad coalition government to back him up. Labour got to look mushy, and compromising.

There's always talk of the Mitzna wing of Labour joining up with Maretz to form a real opposition to Sharon. I think this might be the best thing in the long run. Short term there's always hope that Sharon can be forced into compromise, but its likely more of the same for the foreseeable future.


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 06:18 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I think this might increase the likelihood of the formation of a Social Democratic party. Meretz's head, Yossi Sarid, has indicated that he will step down if the results are as predicted.

I'd be interested in hearing Mishei's view on the election since he scoffed at my pessimistic forecast months ago. But I won't hold my breath.


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Mycroft_
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posted 28 January 2003 06:21 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let it now be said that Israelis never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
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posted 28 January 2003 06:29 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you check the Haaretz site, you'll see that Mitzna reiterated that he won't join Sharon. We'll see.

Besides, I think in a few months Sharon will be indicted. I predict that by the end of the year Netanyahu will be prime minister.


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lagatta
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posted 28 January 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC says lowest turnout since 1949...

I'm very depressed about this, worried for the people I know there (Israelis and Palestinians, a lot of people I know in NGOs through Alternatives, or because they studied with me in Italy...)


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 07:17 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Again, I'll be interested in seeing who the non-voters were.

In the long run, if there is a long run, this may turn out to be the best thing if Labor holds firm and refuses to join a "unity" government. Let the people live with a neo-fascist government, and the results that will bring.


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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Any ideas as to what the next step for the left in the west should be?
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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 08:47 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With about 3/4 of the vote cast, Likud is doing even better than the exit polls indicated:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/Flash1.html

The one bright spot is that the ultra far-right National Union is doing worse than expected.

As for what the left should do next, I would wait to see what government is formed. There my be new elections before the end of the year if no stable government is formed.


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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 09:05 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think rather that the left should continue to draw attention to the issue and use whatever means necessary to make sure that there is not large scale attempt to evict any portion of Palestinians from the WB during the upcoming war in Iraq.
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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 09:10 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh to be sure. I'd be amazed if Sharon let something like that happen. At least in the near future. He's really concerned about how he is perceived in the U.S.
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mandrake
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posted 28 January 2003 09:27 PM      Profile for mandrake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope Sharon remembers to send letters of thanks to Arafat, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad. It's the polite thing to do.
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Moredreads
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posted 28 January 2003 09:27 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who knows though. things could get very hot very fast. Pappe's recent interviews ahve been disturbing, as well as the recnt incursion. What Israel is going to do with people is of critical concern.

From the committee to free Marwan Barghouti and all of the Palestinian political prisoners in Ramallah.

Dear Friends,

We don't know where imprisoned Palestinian MP Marwan Barghouti is.

Dear friends everywhere, we request your help in locating where imprisoned Palestinian MP Marwan Barghouti is. He has been missing since his last hearing on 19th of January 2003.

The Israeli occupying government kept moving him from one prison to another, always in solitary confinement, and has refused to give us any information concerning where they have detained Mr. Barghouti. Moreover, our lawyers are unable to find where he is now detained due to deceptive policies of the Israeli prison authorities.

More than 8000 Palestinian Prisoners have declared a one-day hunger strike this week in solidarity with the Palestinian MP Marwan Barghouti.

We have announced previously that the harsh actions taken again Mr. Barghouti were escalating. We cite his having been attacked and beaten in the court room in front of judges, moving him to Ber al-Sabe' prison, putting him in solitary confinement and preventing his lawyers from meeting with him as examples of such actions. His family has been prevented from visiting him since his arrest on the 15th of April, 2002.

We strongly feel that there is a real threat to his life. We are afraid that the Israeli occupying government, with its forces of right wing extremists, will take such extreme measures since the international media are occupied with the story of the War on Iraq.

We urge you to act immediately in questioning the Israeli government, forcing them to announce where they have detained Mr. Barghouti, and demanding that his lawyers be allowed to visit him. We believe that unless there is strong pressure brought to bear on the Israeli government, they will continue to endanger the life of our Palestinian MP Marwan Barghouti.

Please don't hesitate--please act now.

www.freebarghouti.org


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josh
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posted 28 January 2003 09:35 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandrake, he should also send thanks to Peres, Ben-Eliezer and Barak.

And while he's at it, he could also send one to Yigal Amir.


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Mycroft_
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posted 29 January 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sharon crushes left; says either unity gov't or
new elections

PM quoted as ruling out narrow right-wing gov't; with virtually all polling stations counted: Likud - 37 seats, Labor - 19, Shinui - 15, Shas - 11. By Ha'aretz Service
Ariel Sharon crushed Israel's left Tuesday to become the first incumbent Israeli prime minister to win re-election since the 1980's, and immediately launched an all-out bid to form a unity government with the decimated Labor Party. An aide to Sharon said that the prime minister would not form a narrow right-wing government, and that if he failed to cobble together a unity coalition he would not hesitate to call new elections.

Sharon called the results "a historic victory, a great victory." But he said that celebrations were premature, as terrorism, the Iraqi crisis, and the socio-economic plight all still threatened the nation's population.

"Today is not the time for celebrations - no celebrations. This is a time for soul-searching, for coming together in unity, for fusing all forces in order to bring about a genuine victory."

"It is time to come together," Sharon continued. "I am announcing today, that after the president assigns me the task of forming a government, I will ask all Zionist parties to join a unity government that will be as broad as possible."

With all polling stations counted aside from the votes of soldiers and diplomats abroad, official results showed Likud with 37 seats, Labor with 19, Shinui with 15, Shas with 11, the National Union with seven, Meretz with six, the National Religious Party with five, United Torah Judaism with five, Hadash with four, Balad with three, One Nation with four, Yisrael b'Aliyah with two and the United Arab List with two seats.

Television projections released immediately as polling stations closed Tuesday night showed Sharon's Likud sweeping to victory in the elections for the 16th Knesset, garnering 35 seats, with the Knesset's right-wing bloc predicted to capture up to 67 seats in the 120-seat house. The forecasts also indicated that the Labor-led left-wing bloc had been decimated.

"I do not intend to establish a narrow right-wing government under any circumstances," Channel One quoted Sharon as telling its reporter after a victory speech. "If there is no alternative, and I do not succeed in establishing a different, unity government, I will not hesitate to go to additional elections."

The results gave Sharon a much greater victory than had been predicted in recent opinion polls, which had foreseen a Likud showing of some 31 seats.

In winning re-election, Sharon overcame the electoral curse that had befallen predecessors Yitzhak Shamir, Shimon Peres, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Ehud Barak.

Likud's traditional rival Labor fared poorly, falling one seat short of the 20-seat minimum that pundits said Amram Mitzna would need just to keep his job as Labor Party chairman. Labor finished in a virtual tie with the maverick secular Shinui.

Labor's showing was the worst in the history of the once-dominant party that ruled Israel for the first 29 years of its existence. In the last Knesset elections in 1999, Labor, then the parliament's largest single faction, won 26 seats to the Likud's 19.

Particularly hard hit in the Channel One exit poll was Meretz, which was predicted to lose nearly half its current Knesset strength, to as few as six seats. Minutes after the predictions were released,
longtime Meretz leader Yossi Sarid announced that if the actual results bore out the projections, he would resign his position.

Shinui, as euphoric as Meretz activists were despondent, was projected to become the Knesset's third largest party, more than doubling their strength from six seats at present to as many as 15 in the incoming parliament - according to the Channel One exit poll - and as many as 17 according to the Channel Two and Channel 10 telephone surveys. In fact, Channel 10 had Labor and Shinui tied on 17 seats.

After the polls closed, Mitzna swiftly conceded defeat in a telephone call to Sharon. The prime minister's office said that the two had agreed to meet in the coming days.

Addressing an applauding but somber crowd of Labor activists, Mitzna then took pains to rule out in advance a unity coaltion under Sharon's aegis. "I have no intention of abandoning the path, abandoning hope, for the sake of cabinet chairs," Mitzna declared, his face alternating between a tense determination and a stiff smile.

Shinui leader Tommy Lapid, vowing to "change the face of Israeli politics," called on Mitzna to renounce his campaign pledge to resist a unity government headed by Sharon. Lapid said that Shinui sought a secular unity coalition built on three pillars: Likud, Labor and Shinui.
Our primary objective is to forge a unity government.

Likud Finance Minister Silvan Shalom said the Likud's primary objective was a unity government, but failing that, Sharon would forge a stable right-wing government. "We are prepared to establish three possible governments: a unity government with the Labor Party, second, a unity government [without Labor but incorporating] Shinui, third, a right-wing government. All these could bring about a stable government," he told Channel One.

In the past, right wing governments were stable and have led to dramatic diplomatic moves, Shalom said, pointing to the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian Camp David accords, in which the Likud's Begin signed the nation's first peace treaty with an Arab nation, and Shamir's participation in the landmark 1991 Arab-Israeli talks in Madrid. "Together with the Americans, who are working for change within the Palestinian Authority, we can reach that possibility of peace."

Twenty-seven parties competed in the elections, but particular attention was paid to the results attained by the ruling Likud, its traditional rival Labor and the upstart Shinui.

While the Channel One poll gave Shas 12 seats - down five from its present 17 - the Channel Two survey gave the ultra-Orthodox party only nine seats and the Channel 10 survey 10 seats.

The seats won by a range of hawkish parties were also a central focus of attention, as a strong showing by the right could put pressure on Sharon to form a narrow right-wing coalition.

Throughout the campaign, Sharon maintained that he sought a broad unity government anchored by his Likud and Amram Mitzna's Labor. But Mitzna has vowed to rebuff any offer to join a Sharon-led government, and has left Labor little room to backtrack on the rejection pledge.

Channel One, calling a narrow right-wing coalition government "Sharon's worst nightmare, quoted sources close to the prime minister as saying that he might offer to resume talks with the Palestinians immediately after the elections.

Mitzna, for his part, told party comrades that he would stand fast in opposition until Labor succeeded in toppling the Likud-led government.

But signs energed that Mitzna would first have to answer to critics Labor, who as late as last week had briefly hinted at a movement to replace him as the party's standard-bearer with Labor elder statesman Shimon Peres.

Asked to comment on the stresses within Labor, where a struggle to unseat Mitzna could be imminent, Peres told reporters that whether or not a power struggle ensued, "either way, he will contunue to lead it" at least until primaries are held. "Possibly even after that."

Low voter turnout had been a primary concern for the Likud, which has held a wide lead in opinion polls throughout the campaign. The final total was close to 68.5 percent, an all-time low. The previous record for low voter turnout was notched in 1949. when 75 percent of eligible voters cast their ballots.

Some sectors, however, exhibited a higher turnout than in previous elections. By Tuesday evening, more than 90 percent of IDF soldiers had voted; units in which soldiers finished voting Monday reached a 99 percent turnout. On kibbutzim, 56 percent of eligible voters had voted by 2 P.M., a higher turnout than in the last elections.

Nearly 8,000 polling stations opened at 7 A.M. on Tuesday, with 4,720,074 Israelis eligible to vote in the election. All Israeli citizens with valid Israeli identity cards were eligible to vote, regardless of their permanent residence.

Sharon cast his ballot early Tuesday at a Jerusalem polling station, shortly after Mitzna voted at a Haifa school. Sharon expressed the hope that the next elections would be carried out after the Knesset completes a full term, while Mitzna promised that he would lead Labor to victory "if not tomorrow, then the day after tomorrow."

The complete tally, including as many as 200,000 votes by soldiers, prisoners, hospital patients and overseas envoys, is expected early Friday morning, although the makeup of the next Knesset is expected to be clear by Wednesday morning.



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Mycroft_
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posted 29 January 2003 12:16 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So the turnout is the lowest since the creation of the state of Israel!
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Moredreads
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posted 29 January 2003 12:21 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A society on the brink of moral collapse?
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Smith
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posted 29 January 2003 12:21 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's depressing.
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Moredreads
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posted 29 January 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not really, I don't think a more positive labour result would have changed much.
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Smith
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posted 29 January 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe not, but I had hope...and now I don't.
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Moredreads
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posted 29 January 2003 12:34 AM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure there is hope. Marawan Barghouti is still alive.
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Mycroft_
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posted 29 January 2003 12:45 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are the people stupid?
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Moredreads
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quote:
That's the explanation, simple in its clarity, for why the lower classes supported the colonialism of yore in the Western countries, the rise of the right in Europe of the 1920s and the terrible 1930s. According to that Israeli genetic code, the control over the Palestinians is an alternative to the sense of lack of personal control and it is a membership card to the national collective.


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Mycroft_
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According to this article the Arab turnout is higher than average, though still lower than the Jewish turnout. So it seems the drop in turnout comes from Jewish voters... Russians for one if the loss of seats by Sharansky's party is any indication, and Labour voters as well I expect.
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vderi
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posted 29 January 2003 01:54 AM      Profile for vderi        Edit/Delete Post
If you look at what Ha'aretz is reporting to be the final "actual" results, there would seem to be about three rough possibilities for a coalition government:


1.BROAD CENTRIST (Sharon and Lapid's desired choice, already rejected by Mitzna):

Likud (37 seats) + Labor (19) + Shinui (15) = 71 out of 120 seats


2. NARROW RIGHT-SECULAR (because Lapid won't sit in government with the religious parties):

Likud (37) + Shinui (15) + National Union (7) + Yisrael B'Aliyah (2) = 61 out of 120, or the slimmest possible majority

3. NARROW RIGHT-"THEOCRATIC":

Likud (37) + Shas (11) + National Union (7) + [Yisrael B'Aliyah (2) and / or National Religious Party (5) and / or UTJ (5)] = between 62 and 67 out of 120 seats


If Mitzna holds out and keeps his party together, then I would guess that option 2 is more likely than option 3.

If Mitzna holds out and Labor splits over joining the government, then I would guess that there would be a narrower version of option 1 (i.e. Likud + Shinui + Labor dissidents, with maybe Yisrael B'Aliyah thrown into the mix)


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Mycroft_
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posted 29 January 2003 02:47 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hm, more people didn't vote than voted Likud.
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josh
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posted 29 January 2003 06:31 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The near final results:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/Flash1.html

The right bloc will have 67 seats, the "center" 19, and the "left" 34.

The numbers also mean that Sharon can't form a secular, non-extremist right coaltion without Labor. The most seats he could get would be 58, three short.

The possible coalitions:

http://tinyurl.com/51f1

[ 29 January 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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josh
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posted 30 January 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So much for the "refusenicks," the right gains two more seats as a result of the soldiers' vote. Guess they enjoy their work in the west bank and gaza.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/258049.html

And I think the other significant thing is that Arab representation drops from 10 to 8 seats despite an increase in population. That means there was a significantly lower Arab voter turnout.

[ 30 January 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 30 January 2003 07:12 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the Arab parties lost one seat, the other seat was lost by the centrist One Nation.
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josh
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posted 30 January 2003 07:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But they're two seats down from the last election.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 January 2003 09:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh asked me in another thread about my position on the Isareli election. I have given it much thought and felt I should also post it here:

And Josh you have asked for my take on the election, well, the Israeli public has spoken. Most significant of all, IMHO, is the fact that only 68% of the populace came out to vote - the lowest percentage in all of Israel's history. Why? Most commentators say that the total exhaustion felt in this country after having waged war against the terrorists manifested itself at the polls. The fact that Sharon won in a landslide (to put it mildly) tells me that security continues to be the most important issue on the minds of Israelis.
37 seats to 19 for Labor says, that Israelis see themselves in this for the long haul. While hoping for peace they prepare for ongoing war agaist Hamas et al that have vowed to destroy them.

I have a hope and a realistic view of what will happen in Israel in the next month. President Katzav will say to Sharon, "Go get thee a coalition." What I truly hope will happen is that Sharon (whose Likud party is traditionally kindred spirits to the religious party) will form a government with Labor (although it is quite possible unfortunately that Mitzna may get dropped next week at the Labor meeting) and Shinui. The things that will happen in this kind of government include virtually all 18 year olds will be drafted, stores will open on the Sabbath that haven't been allowed to open previously, and the corruption in the Orthodox sector of the government and municipalities will be curbed big time. The defense establishment will remain stable and the economy may take a turn for the better if more of the country becomes privatized. Oh yeah, the next elections will be in four years.
On the other hand, if the coalition is made up of the religious and far right wing splinter parties, it is only a matter of time before someone doesn't get their special interest looked after, and will work to topple the government, and probably succeed. That is why Sharon has stated that if he can't form a unity government with Labor and Shinui, he may opt for another election soon. Expensive? You bet. Strategically sound? Very much so.


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josh
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posted 30 January 2003 09:36 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the vote breakdown by religious and ethnic groups:

http://tinyurl.com/54o7

I appreciate your response Mishei. However, I fail to see what Labor would gain by joining a unity government. A large part of the reason for Labor's showing because they were discredited by the continued participation in the previous "unity" government long after it was clear they were being jerked around by Sharon. Should they enter government again, Sharon will do the same thing. Labor would have done no worse, and might have done better, had they never joined the unity government and stuck to their guns. Unfortunately, like Barak, they stabbed themselves in the back and hid behind Sharon. Continued privatization, as you suggests, would only complete Labor sullying of its own legacy.

And what does Sharon have to gain by new elections? He can't do much better. And there's a good chance he'll be under indictment before he gets that chance.

The big news in the turnout was the decline in Arab, Russian and young left of centre voting. Haaretz has a good article on Meretz's fall as well as the failure of Labor and Shinui to reach an agreement.


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Briguy
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posted 30 January 2003 10:40 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was going to say the same thing...too slow with the late-night logging on, obviously. Coalition with Likud gained absolutely nothing for Labour, either politically (as evidenced by this election) or on their platforms. It has decreased the security of the average Israeli citizen. Why would they want to dance twice with the same club-footed partner? Better to let Likud form a partnership with some of the more extreme parties, or force a new election, from Labour's standpoint.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moredreads
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posted 30 January 2003 11:02 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where is Mycroft? He's always good on the moral and spirtual collapse of Israel.

Listing with water coming over the deck, this boat has no direction. Even if the captain wanted to change course he couldn't, so instead he contents himself with whipping the coolies to remind everyone that he is in charge, even as the best parts of his crew, disgusted, make for the lifeboats and set course for other lands.


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DrConway
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posted 31 January 2003 03:33 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Incidentally, Mishei, I am surprised to see you advocate privatization in Israel. Their government, by our standards, is remarkably interventionist and has marginal tax rates that would make rich people here scream blue murder.

Examples of interventionism include the heavy degree to which settlements are subsidized, as well as the high level of military spending, which means the government becomes the major employer, especially for young people.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 31 January 2003 03:37 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel needs to dismantle the settlements for more than just moral and political reasons, it seems to me.

They cost a fortune.


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josh
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posted 31 January 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Likud needs Labor:

http://tinyurl.com/5625

But Labor doesn't need Likud:

http://tinyurl.com/5628


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josh
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posted 31 January 2003 06:11 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What now for the Israeli left?:

http://tinyurl.com/5693


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Mycroft_
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posted 01 February 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But they're two seats down from the last election.

I wasn't referring to the changes in seats between last election and this one, I was referring to the change in the count for this election once the soldiers' vote was counted.


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Mycroft_
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posted 01 February 2003 01:03 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where is Mycroft? He's always good on the moral and spirtual collapse of Israel.

You're thinking of Moshe Menuhin (Yedudi's father) or Yeshayahu Leibowitz.


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Moredreads
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posted 01 February 2003 10:02 PM      Profile for Moredreads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can I see some background on that?
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Mycroft_
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posted 01 February 2003 11:05 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moshe Menuhin was born in Russia in 1893, his family moved to Palestine where he was raised, he moved to the US in 1913 and decided in 1917 not to return to Palestine as he had concluded that Zionism had a degenerating effect on Judaism and Jewish values, particularly because of the attitude of Zionism towards the Palestinians.

According to the "about the author" notes from Menuhin's "The Decadence of Judaism in our Time", Menuhin maintained an interest in the Mideast throughout his life and "was particularly concerned about the fate of the uprooted Arab inhabitants of Palestine and the bitter dispute between the Arab countries and the 'Jewish' nationalists." He formed an organisation, Jewish Alternatives to Zionism (JAZ) whose purpose was "to conduct an educational program applying Jewish values of justice and knowledge to the Arab-Israeli conflict thereby attempting to advance the cause of peace in the Middle East through a rejection of Zionist Israel's 'Jewish people' group natioanlist claimes which automatically relate Jews to the state of Israel." Moshe Menuhin's son, Yehudi, the late world-famous violinist, shared his father's views.

You can read more about the Menuhins here and here

As for Leibowitz, I suggest reading his book "Judaism, Human Values and the Jewish State" a very readable collection of articles articulating his views on how Zionism, the Israeli state and the oppression of Palestinians degrade Judaism.

Leibowitz, Yeshayahu (1903-1994)
Scientist, Philosopher, and Man of Letters

Born in Riga, Yeshayahu Leibowitz (brother of Nechama) was educated in Germany and Switzerland and immigrated to Eretz Yisrael in 1935. He joined the faculty of Hebrew University and taught chemistry, physiology, and history and philosophy of science. He authored many books and articles, lectured publicly, and was an editor of several volumes of the Encyclopedia Hebraica. Outspoken in his views on Judaism and Israel, he aroused a great deal of debate and antagonism among religious and non-religious circles. The decision in 1992 to award him the Israel Prize sparked much controversy, and Leibowitz declined to receive it. He died in Jerusalem in 1994.

Leibowitz's notion of Judaism focused entirely on the importance of Halacha. He held that the obligation to observe the commandments was an end in itself, and that religion therefore was not a means to a greater personal or social good. Because of his belief in the overriding value of the Law, Leibowitz advocated fresh Halachic deliberations that deal with situations and challenges of the modern world. He stressed nationalism's religious importance, but following the establishment of the State of Israel and its independence of Halachic norms, Leibowitz argued fiercely for the separation of religion from the state. He insisted that the state was not an ideal with an intrinsic significance, but was there to serve its citizens.

Leibowitz was also uncompromising in his political views. Although he had been active in various political groups, he disapproved of the system of party rule and the numerous political parties, including the religious parties. He labored publicly against government corruption and the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Following the Six Day War, he objected staunchly to retaining any Arab territory, arguing that occupation morally destroys the conqueror. He supported military conscientious objection to serving in the territories and in Lebanon, and it was largely his vociferous left-wing views that made him such a controversial figure.

[ 01 February 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This cartoon, based on Goya's Saturn Devouring One of His Sons, appeared in the Independent last week and has elicited a debate in Britain over whether it is satire or anti-Semitism. For a discussion on the topic see here. (if you go to that page and click on the cartoon you can get an enlargement of the image below. Loudspeakers from the helicopters are broadcasting "Vote Sharon, Vote Sharon", the "fig leaf" in the form of a party rosette says "Vote Likud" and Sharon himself is saying "What's the matter, haven't you ever seen a politician kiss a baby before?)

[ 02 February 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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Michelle
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posted 02 February 2003 07:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is long - I think I'll close it now. Feel free to start a new thread to discuss the election results.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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