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Author Topic: Category 5 Hurricane Katrina-68 dead-Total NO evacuation ordered
Rob8305
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posted 28 August 2005 10:51 AM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This could potentially be the worst natural disater in North American history.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov for advisories.

And the below link explains why it is so devastating. Some estimates predict 70.000 or more people could die in New Orleans.

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/thebigone_1.html

"Filling the bowl" is the worst potential scenario for a natural disaster in the United States, emergency officials say. The Red Cross' projected death toll dwarfs estimates of 14,000 dead from a major earthquake along the New Madrid, Mo., fault, and 4,500 dead from a similar catastrophic earthquake hitting San Francisco, the next two deadliest disasters on the agency's list.

The projected death and destruction eclipse almost any other natural disaster that people paid to think about catastrophes can dream up. And the risks are significant, especially over the long term. In a given year, for example, the corps says the risk of the lakefront levees being topped is less than 1 in 300. But over the life of a 30-year mortgage, statistically that risk approaches 9 percent.

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: Rob8305 ]

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Rob8305 ]

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Rob8305 ]

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Rob8305 ]


From: Montrose | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rob, I was just remembering last night that we are approaching hurricane season. (If you look under Out and About, we have had some running discussions the last couple of years about threats as they developed, this time of year.)

Thanks for raising the alert. I recall talking about the precarious situation in New Orleans then, although the city was saved that time. Let's hope.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 11:16 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, my God. Watch this.

Pray for New Orleans.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 28 August 2005 11:40 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just saw on the news that they're clearing out New Orleans ans the Surrounding area. I wish them luck there.
From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rob8305
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posted 28 August 2005 12:06 PM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Rob, I was just remembering last night that we are approaching hurricane season. (If you look under Out and About, we have had some running discussions the last couple of years about threats as they developed, this time of year.)

Thanks for raising the alert. I recall talking about the precarious situation in New Orleans then, although the city was saved that time. Let's hope.


Yes this is the worst case nightmare scenario. I've read articles on the internet for years about just this thing and I hoped it would never happen.

This is nuts. Biblical disaster unfolding.

Winds now at 175 mph!


From: Montrose | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 12:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At the moment it is New Orleans I fear for, but I just had a look at the track predicted for that storm. It is coming right through Toronto on Wednesday night.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 28 August 2005 12:26 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
If the worst case scenario does play out (and let's all hope/pray it does not), how much will the adventures in Iraq reduce the ability of the military to assist domesticly? I'm not asking that rhetorically. Does anyone here have anything of a handle on that ?
From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 12:34 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just before I signed off on babble last night, I checked all the available data and told Roni I had a bad feeling about this. Now this morning its even worst than I imagined. They're compring this to Camille, but that storm did not draw a bead on New Orleans - it was more a Mississippi-Biloxi storm. And how many people living in NO remember 1969? So many of the people that CNN have interviewed are jaded - they say they've been through this drill so many times before, they don't believe it.

The evacuation orders coupled with emergency orders to seize private property and vehicles tells me that the mayor and governor believe this is serious. They've done exactly the right thing.

CNN is as usual, all over this. But if you want to see continuous local coverage from New Orleans, WWL has a live stream you can watch:

WWL live broadcast


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rob8305
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posted 28 August 2005 12:42 PM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by James:
If the worst case scenario does play out (and let's all hope/pray it does not), how much will the adventures in Iraq reduce the ability of the military to assist domesticly? I'm not asking that rhetorically. Does anyone here have anything of a handle on that ?

James, that is a very good question indeed. It was discussed on weather forums last night and they said most if not all of the national guard is in Iraq so this will stretch their resources considerably.

Another thing: The New Orleans Superdome had better not collapse and with 175 mph sustained it might just. That would lead to 30,000 deaths or injuries.

For once the hype the media gives a story is totally warranted.


From: Montrose | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 August 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
At the moment it is New Orleans I fear for, but I just had a look at the track predicted for that storm. It is coming right through Toronto on Wednesday night.

Where did you see that? I was looking at your link but I couldn't find the projected path of the storm.

That's really scary. I wonder what path it will take between where it is now and Toronto. Any babblers in its path?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:

Have no fear, by the time the system gets that far north it will be just rain.

The system has jogged a little to the east bringing the eyewall that much further away from NO but not far enough.

The main concerns is, of course, that 18-22 foot storm surge overwhelming the levees.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 12:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, scroll up to the series of tabs at top of page.

Under "Storm Centre," click on "Tropical." When you get there, scroll down a bit to the hurricane: under "Storm Track," click on "Available."


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 28 August 2005 12:58 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
on a more domestic note, you might want to fill up your car, and any other storage you have available. $100/bbl oil is about to hit,literally
"About one-sixth of the U.S. oil supply comes through the Port Fourchon facilities. The port accounts for about 13% of U.S. oil imports. About 27% of U.S. domestic production comes through the port's pipelines.

Even a minor disruption in production could send gasoline and natural gas prices sharply higher. See Dave Callaway's earlier column.

The region currently produces 1.5 million barrels of oil per day and 10 billion cubic feet of natural gas per day, according to the U.S. Minerals and Management Service.

The gulf produces about a fifth of U.S. natural gas and about a quarter of its crude petroleum.

In 2004, Hurricane Ivan disrupted about 10% of Gulf oil and gas production for about four months. Thirty-one oil platforms were seriously damaged as Ivan hit the Alabama coast"
http://tinyurl.com/by4oz


From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 28 August 2005 01:01 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Projected 5 day tracking.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 28 August 2005 01:19 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
Michelle: Have no fear, by the time the system gets that far north it will be just rain.

Hurricane Hazel


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 01:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
James, I was thinking of Hazel too, but we need to see a map of how she tracked inland.

It is unusual for a hurricane to retain that much force this far inland, so I am wondering whether Hazel came in fast from the east coast, rather than from so far south as Katrina, and then made a U-turn and headed for us?

Stranger things have happened. We had one hurricane in Medicine Hat, eg, in the early 1950s. And look at where Medicine Hat is.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 01:30 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by James:

Hurricane Hazel


Whoa. I didn't know about that one. I would hope that after crossing the US on the long route it wouldn't be much of a threat to Ontario but after looking at your link, can anyone be sure? I would think that Katrina would need some help to maintain TS level intensity that far north.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 28 August 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
True, skdadl. Hazel did strike land at the Georgia-South Carolina border. But then, Hazel was only a Category 4 storm, and I would think that a storm has much better potential of retaining it's power tracking up the Mississippi and Ohio river valleys than while jumping the Smokies and Pokanoes. But IANAM. (meteorologist)

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: James ]


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 28 August 2005 02:35 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Looks like New Orleans is trapped in one huge traffic jam at the moment.

Oh, and another thought. Do you think perhaps the US will take global warming seriously now?

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: Doug ]


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 28 August 2005 02:50 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes but they will argue about whether it is natural or man-made which is what the skeptics have always argued.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 02:52 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also think Blacklisted is right. Wait for the oil market to open tomorrow and watch all hell break loose.

The WWL coverage is outstanding if you haven't clicked on the link yet. They promise to be out with live remotes when the storm hits to the extent possible.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 28 August 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I sincerely hope all those people get out of there as fast as possible. This storm sure sounds like it's really picking up.

Rob8305: Are you serious about most or ALL of the National Guard being tied up in Iraq??? Holy crap.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 28 August 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am watching the WWL coverage right now. It's very good coverage. When is the touchdown time for this storm? Forgive my ignorance.. I'm in asia right now and I had no idea the storm was so big until you guys told me so.
From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 28 August 2005 03:23 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the link AE. Excellent coverage with a lot of local expertise.

The storm is making a b-line for downtown NO, and is currently expected around 8 am Monday.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
cco
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posted 28 August 2005 03:24 PM      Profile for cco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by West Coast Tiger:
Rob8305: Are you serious about most or ALL of the National Guard being tied up in Iraq??? Holy crap.

There are still plenty of NG in Louisiana; they've been deployed and are helping with the evacuation. It'd take another war or two to exhaust the entire Guard.


From: Montréal | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 28 August 2005 03:30 PM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by cco:

There are still plenty of NG in Louisiana; they've been deployed and are helping with the evacuation. It'd take another war or two to exhaust the entire Guard.


Thanks JB and cco... I have some family down there in New Orleans and I had no idea the storm was this big. TV out here just doesn't talk about it until AFTER it happens.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 28 August 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The barametric pressure continues to drop, now listed at .902. This would make it the second lowest ever recorded for a hurricane, and lower pressure equates to higher power.
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 28 August 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Would you say it's time for our
viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?"

The US National Weather Service apparently thinks it is.

quote:
MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.



From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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posted 28 August 2005 04:26 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hurricane Juan hit Halifax dead-on almost two years ago. He was a category two hurricane. I can no more imagine a category five than ... can't think of anything. And in New Orleans -- 70 per cent of which is below sea level.

On my street, we were without power for nine days -- but we didn't lose water, for example, which is expected there.

I think I heard a little earlier that it was expected to reach New Orleans around 2 p.m. tomorrow.

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: Sharon ]


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 28 August 2005 04:28 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've lived through a Cat 4 and it's not an experience I would recommend even if you're well above sea level. A Cat 5 in New Orleans, I don't want to think about.
From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 28 August 2005 04:28 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
and a little more on the oil and gas front
"The equipment located in the storm's likely path includes the bulk of the nation's oil and gas production platforms, thousands of miles of pipelines and -- perhaps most importantly for national gasoline prices -- much of the country's refinery capacity. In addition, the south Louisiana coastline serves as the entry point for around a third of the nation's imported oil.

Last year's Hurricane Ivan, which came ashore along the Alabama-Florida line moving through an area mostly devoid of rigs, caused widespread destruction both above and below water in the fields off Alabama and eastern Louisiana. Floating rigs were found drifting hundreds of miles from the wells they had been plumbing, while some rigs with legs fixed to the bottom toppled into the sea. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of pipelines were tangled and torn to pieces by sea currents and massive underwater mudslides.

The full extent of the damage wasn't known for days and the Gulf lost nearly 30 percent of production capacity for well over a month, which drove prices for oil up $12 a barrel within a few weeks. Prices for both oil and natural gas surged upward and stayed high for months."
http://tinyurl.com/9nnv4


From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 05:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
These people who are broadcasting on WWL: where are they? Where are their studios?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 28 August 2005 05:32 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
From the satelite imagery, this thing seems to be getting bigger, more intense, and moving faster by the hour. And it would seem to take a very dramatic course change now to avoid a direct hit on New Orleans. I think the National Hurricane Center is due to release another report in an hour or so, but as of now, I'm pretty much presuming that 24 hours from now, the city will no longer exist. And much as I'd dreamed to, I never got a chance to see it.
From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
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posted 28 August 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't imagine how residents feel, knowing their homes and their city is going to be destroyed. I know it's ridiculous to hope no one gets hurt, so instead I'll hope that there are as few casualties as possible and that the clean up and restoration is speedy. My thoughts are definitely with everyone in the area.

quote:
Originally posted by James:
And much as I'd dreamed to, I never got a chance to see it.

I know what you mean. My sister and I had plans to go to Mardi Gras in a few years, after she turns 21. I'm working very hard to squash the small part of me that is selfishly disappointed.

From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 06:10 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, I was wondering the same thing. According to their own website, their studios are located at 1024 N. Rampart Street New Orleans.

I tried to paste the map but it doesn't work for me. You can plot it at randmcnally.com. They're right in downtown New Orleans near the Mississippi.

I would be very worried and I think they're putting up a good face right now.

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: Américain Égalitaire ]


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 28 August 2005 06:21 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
I would be very worried and I think they're putting up a good face right now.

You would be amazed at how seldom it occurs to TV types that they could get hurt covering a story. Most of the reporters are probably perversely excited that they're going to get a 'hurricane live hit' for their resume tapes-- everybody seems to want one.

We once had a passle of tornadoes hit when I was producing in Michigan in 2000, and when one swooped our way we nearly lost our station's tower. The whole time all of us were muttering, 'this is great video... this is hot!'

It didn't occur to anyone until afterwards that we had been in danger.

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 August 2005 06:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Map of city centre

The red star marks the WWL station. See on left top the edge of Lake Pontchartrain, which is where the great spill is expected come from, I believe?

If you zoom in, you will see that WWL are right on the northwesterish edge of the old quarter (do they call that the Latin Quarter?) -- Bourbon Street, etc.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 28 August 2005 07:21 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
5-day track forecast:


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 28 August 2005 07:47 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
some other cams
http://www.portno.com/webcamnew_out.htm

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
cco
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posted 28 August 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for cco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Map of city centre
If you zoom in, you will see that WWL are right on the northwesterish edge of the old quarter (do they call that the Latin Quarter?) -- Bourbon Street, etc.

They call it the French Quarter (Louisiana Francophones refer to it as the Vieux Carré). Or perhaps "called" is more appropriate at this point.


From: Montréal | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 28 August 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, according to the colour scheme in the legend it's still expected to be a hurricaine, a category 1, when it reaches TO and MTL? As well it looks like it will remain at least a category 2 for the entire north/south bredth of the U.S. Scary.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 28 August 2005 08:00 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Granted that I'm colour-blind, but I read it as indicating that it would be a tropical depression as it approaches the great lakes. I suppose it could pick up a little steam there, but not much. However, it's still a hurricane in Tennessee. (as I read the map)
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 28 August 2005 08:02 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by blacklisted:
on a more domestic note, you might want to fill up your car, and any other storage you have available. $100/bbl oil is about to hit,literally

And depending on how much refining capacity is put out of commission, there could be a much higher percentage jump in the price of gasoline at the pump.

And then there will be the huge jump in the price of lumber, plywood, drywall, cement and other building materials when reconstruction begins. Although there will be a huge construction boom in New Orleans and the surrounding area, construction will come to a swift halt elsewhere, and what building continues will see materials and lobour costs soar. And add to that the increase in insurance premiums to cover the staggering loss pay outs.

Putting aside the lose of life and personal property for a moment, this is going to be a huge hit on the US economy, and to the US federal deficit, maybe big enough to tip them (and us...) into a major financial implosion.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 28 August 2005 08:07 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oops it won't work
try that again
http://www.nola.com/bourbocam/

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: blacklisted ]

[ 28 August 2005: Message edited by: blacklisted ]


From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 09:03 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the cams - lets see how they stay up. But with dark coming they'll be less useful. I'm keeping WWL open on my computer.
From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 28 August 2005 09:08 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the hurricane is not expected to arrive there until Monday morning; though we can see it's raining there now.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 09:17 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When normally sober meteorologists start writing like this, we are on the verge of a seriously bad event.

quote:
FXUS64 KLIX 282153 AAA
AFDLIX

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION...UPDATED
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
452 PM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

.UPDATE...TO ADD TORNADO WATCH #752.

.DISCUSSION...
SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA SEEMS POISED FOR A DATE WITH DESTINY AS
CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE KATRINA CONTINUES TO KEEP A BEAD ON BARATARIA
BAY AND THE GREATER NEW ORLEANS AREA. THE GFS MODEL CONTINUES TO
BE SUPERIOR IN ITS HANDLING OF THE SYSTEM INASMUCH AS TO BASE THE
CONVENTIONAL FORECAST PARAMETERS WITH GOOD INTEGRITY AND IN
AGREEMENT WITH NHC ADVISORIES.

NEEDLESS TO SAY...THE WORST CAN BE ANTICIPATED AND URGENCY IS
BEING STRESSED IN ALL PRODUCTS AS A WORST CASE HURRICANE SCENARIO
FOR THIS VERY FRAGILE AND VULNERABLE STRETCH OF U.S. COASTLINE.
THE EYE IS EMERGING ON THE KLIX LONG RANGE LOOP AND BANDS ARE
EXTENDING TO LAKE PONTCHARTRAIN AT THIS TIME. THINGS WILL BE
DETIORATING STEADILY FROM THIS POINT FORWARD FOR THE NEXT 24
HOURS.

WILL MAINTAIN ALL WARNINGS AS ALREADY POSTED AS WELL AS THE FLASH
FLOOD WATCH. STORM PREDICTION CENTER HAS ADVISED THAT THE FIRST
TORNADO WATCH OF THE EVENT WILL LIKELY BE ISSUED FOR THE REGION
EARLY THIS EVENING...PROBABLY RIGHT AFTER SUNSET.

MOST ATTENTION WITH THIS PACKAGE WAS DAY 1-2 WITH LITTLE IF ANY
CHANGES MADE BEYOND DAY 3. GOOD LUCK AND GODSPEED TO ALL IN THE
PATH OF THIS STORM.


You can get a lot of up to date data here:

Louisiana Data IWIN

and here:

NWS New Orleans office


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 28 August 2005 10:37 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
Gawd, wathching CNN; nice to know that the dolphins have been properly safeguarded, eh ! Meanwhile, some 15,000 people in the Superdomw, the roof of which may or may not stand (personally, I think not), that has no back-up power to speak of, and what little it does is located below sea level. It almost seems that MSM is trying to minimize this already.
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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 28 August 2005 11:21 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WWL's people in New Orleans are flying the coop at Midnight and setting up shop in Baton Rouge.

The first thing I do tomorrow morning is top off the tank:

Analysts: Katrina is `perfect storm' to push up energy prices

quote:
The impact was immediate Sunday night when electronic trading resumed on the New York Mercantile Exchange, as crude oil futures spiked $4.50 per barrel, putting the cost above $70 for the first time since oil began trading there in 1983.

From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 29 August 2005 06:45 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a nasty thought:

quote:
So, imagine you're the poor person who decides not to evacuate: Your house will disintegrate around you. The best you'll be able to do is hang on to a light pole, and while you're hanging on, the fire ants from all the mounds -- of which there is two per yard on average -- will clamber up that same pole. And, eventually, the fire ants will win.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/katrina.doomsday/index.html


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skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 07:28 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see from several sources that they are now calling Katrina a Category 4 storm, and that she is supposed to have moved a bit east, with the centre expected to make landfall in the next couple of hours.

The satellite loop I'm watching doesn't show much of a shift east -- and I can already see an edge of the centre over the tip of the delta at 10 GMT (how many hours are we behind GMT?).


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 29 August 2005 08:11 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Faux News reported at 7am that Katrina has made landfall with winds of 145 mph (Category 4) and is moving at 15 mph. The rain is so heavy that a reporter described it just like being underwater (I think we'll see a repeat of reporters standing outside in the hurricane - like the one last year, reporters getting hammered by wind and rain... is there some reason they can't report from inside?)
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 29 August 2005 08:21 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The storm track looks like it will level New Orleans. I fear for the people who remain.

I hope that the Superdome stadium can withstand the storm since their are tens of thousands who have gone there to seek shelter.


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Crippled_Newsie
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posted 29 August 2005 08:32 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I think we'll see a repeat of reporters standing outside in the hurricane - like the one last year, reporters getting hammered by wind and rain... is there some reason they can't report from inside?

Because video trumps all in TV news, for good or ill. I once read a tongue-in-cheek guide for hurricane reporters that advised: be sure to wear lightweight, loose raingear to get maximum flapping effects from the wind.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 August 2005 09:16 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It now seems that Katrina has moved far enough east to spare New Orleans from the worst scenarios. However, Gulfport-Biloxi, Mississippi seems to now be in the bullseye of the worst winds. NO's main problem now seems to be the influx of water from the east storm surge (they were worried about water from the south) however they sound more confident that the levees should be able to hold. Fingers crossed.
From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 August 2005 09:18 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I couldn't believe the satellite photos this weekend. Katrina took up 70% of the Gulf of Mexico! I can't recall seeing a storm so physically large, ever, anywhere. The entire shoreline of eastern Louisiana could be changed by the end of this.

Update: Katrina made landfall as a Category 4 hurricane at Buras, Louisiana (which is about 50 km SE of New Orleans, along the Mississippi Delta). This is sort-of good news, as the strongest winds in a hurricane are those to the east of the eye. New Orleans will receive the southerly winds.

Buras is at the centre of this Google Maps image. You can see New Orleans to the NW.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
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posted 29 August 2005 09:43 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
speaking of "fingers crossed", I am very concerned about the situation in the Louisiana Superdome:

people are being given "refuge" there, live on CNN, even though it is at best a guess whether the best reinforced structure can resist 200 KMH winds

pray this is not another World Trade Centre-like live-on-TV catastrophe ...

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Geneva ]


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 29 August 2005 10:02 AM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi Gang,

My relatives got out. Thank God!

I've been watching WKRG TV for the last hour or so since WWL seems to be down for the time being. (They must have high-tailed it to Baton Rouge at midnight)

You can watch WKRG here if you are looking for coverage:

http://www.wkrg.com/

Just click on "View Live Katrina Coverage Here".


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 August 2005 10:02 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geneva: CNN just reported a hole has been torn in the roof of the Superdome. They're following the story - rain is coming in and people are being moved. The one weather guy says they'll move the people into the councouse which was built to withstand the pounding (i.e. the restrooms, the hot dog stands, etc.) I guess the Saints may have to play on the road for awhile.

WWL no longer streams so I've been watching CNN. The usual suspects are out in the storm, Gary Tuchman of CNN near Biloxi seems to be in the worst of it. I think he's nuts from what I'm seeing but I guess he wants to be there.

Edited to add: thanks for the link WCT!

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Américain Égalitaire ]


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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posted 29 August 2005 10:09 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Anyone know what the size of the "SuperDome" is? Is it a baseball/football (N.O. Saints) type dome, or is it a basketball/hockey type dome (N.0. Hornets)?
From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 10:10 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read this a.m., Kevin, that it is a football stadium.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
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posted 29 August 2005 10:10 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
it is all-football right now, home of the New Orleans Saints, 80,000 seats or so, although it has held giant conventions (Republicans 2000?) and shows regularly

amazing juxtaposition of the banality of Sunday football markers and ads around the field, with this coming life-or-death struggle

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Geneva ]


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 August 2005 10:11 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kevin: its the biggest dome there is in the US:


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 29 August 2005 10:13 AM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No problem A.E.

What's this about a hole in the superdome??? I'm going to check in on CNN.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 29 August 2005 10:20 AM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Superdome facts here

Just heard about 80% of people from New Orleans got out in time.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 10:24 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My satellite picture is showing the west edge of the eyewall almost touching the eastern edge of Lake Pontchartrain at 13:00 GMT, which would have been half an hour ago.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 10:28 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just heard someone on WKRG advising people in a particular place that it is time to take refuge "in the smallest room in your house."

Now, we all know where that would be, yes?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 29 August 2005 10:31 AM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My office?
From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 August 2005 10:31 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CNN now reporting Mayor Nagin saying the levee has been breached in the SW part of NO.
From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 29 August 2005 10:33 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...time to take refuge "in the smallest room in your house."

Yes, that's the cyclone advice that's hammered into us from childhood here, too. The size of the room and the plumbing give it a bit of extra strength is the theory.

And you have to open the windows of the house on the opposite side to the one copping the wind, so your house doesn't explode, which I've always found weird to do in a god-awful gale.

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 29 August 2005 10:36 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder if people left New Orleans and went to Biloxi? I guess maybe there is less flooding danger there, anyway.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 11:00 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
you have to open the windows of the house on the opposite side to the one copping the wind,

Suzette, I can't do that. One side of my house is attached to ... another house.

But how would I know where the wind was coming from anyway in a hurricane? That is definitely one of the parts of these reports that I do not follow. The damn thing is going round and round and thus hitting from all directions, no?

I do not wish to explode.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 29 August 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I once heard some talking head say not to bother opening the windows because the storm would probably break them anyway. Is that a comfort?
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West Coast Tiger
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posted 29 August 2005 11:05 AM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I do not wish to explode.

Tres clever Still grinnin'.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, yes. That makes me feel much better.

Actually, a couple of my windows I really detest, but I can't afford to do anything about them. If a storm would break them, I could make the insurance company pay for nice new ones.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 29 August 2005 11:22 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The damn thing is going round and round and thus hitting from all directions, no?
No, they're very, very large, so the wind hits the house from one direction only. Trust me, you'd have no trouble knowing which side it was hitting! When it passes over and the other side of the storm hits, then the direction it's coming from changes, of course. I should note that the windows are only opened a small way and only during very high winds, and is done on the leeward side. I'm sure you won't explode, skdadl.

The opening does make a difference; I've felt the pressure in a house go up and down with the gusts during a cyclone before it's opened up -- makes your ears go crazy. It's very strange, but then, it's only one of many strange experiences during a cyclone. The noise has been the most unnerving for me before.

Brr... I'm getting goosebumps thinking about all of this.

With that I'm off to bed. Hopefully there'll be good news for all the folks in the storm area by the time I wake up.

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 August 2005 11:27 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New Orleans is one of my favourite cities in the world! I hope it survives. Why can't this hurricane wipe out some awful eyesore like Houston instead???
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 29 August 2005 11:30 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Faux News just interviewed the Mayor of Noo Orleans, who is inside the Superdome. He said there are a couple of holes, very small, and some rain getting in, but it's a very solid structiure, not unusual to have a few roof panels blow off in a storm like this. There's 9,000 people inside, seating for 72,000. They are all in the seats, none on the floor of the Dome. They've moved everyone from one seating section to another, because some rain was falling in one area inside. The National Guard or military are getting breakfast ready. Last night they had (quote) "good military meals". That idiot reporter outside was getting blown down, so he just decided to take cover at least for the next hour.

edited to add: I was outside in a tornado that whipped through a community in northern Ontario in I think 1991 - the siding was beginning to come off my house, so I ran outside to hold it on - against wind of way over 100 mph. Scary.

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 29 August 2005 11:51 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just heard on the radio that it is now Category 3.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes -- on the satellite loop, anyway, the eye of the storm no longer looks to be holding as firm as it was. (It's out of shape. The centre cannot hold. Something like that.)

From CNN:

quote:
Three residents of a New Orleans nursing home died Sunday while being evacuated to Baton Rouge, said Don Moreau, chief of operations for the East Baton Rouge Parish Coroner's Office.

The 23 residents were supposed to stay at a church, where one of the bodies was found. The other body was found on a school bus and a third person died at a hospital, Moreau said.

The others were found to be suffering from various forms of dehydration and exhaustion, he said.

Moreau did not know whether authorities would term the deaths storm-related. "These people are very fragile," he said. "When they're loaded up on a school bus and transported out of New Orleans ..."


You just know that these things are going to happen. That's what I would be working on in prep for a disaster, the people who really shouldn't be moved, or who can't move. Was a school bus really the best they could do?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kinetix
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posted 29 August 2005 12:15 PM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you ever tried renting a bus in the 24 hours prior to a hurricane?
From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 August 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kinetix. We are talking about people in a nursing home. A nursing home in New Orleans. In hurricane season.

A bus? Wait till the last 24 hours before you think about these issues?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 29 August 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm I guess its a good thing I had to cancel my halloween New Orleans trip *sigh*

Lot of coffins floating tonite I think


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brebis noire
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posted 29 August 2005 01:27 PM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, I visited nursing homes when I was in Dallas. Very jarring and dispiriting experience. In fact, it was my first step towards realising what was horribly wrong about U.S. society and my first step to the left of centre.

If you are old, and not rich, nobody cares about you - least of all, any form of government. Since you are no longer a worker, you have no worth.

From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 29 August 2005 09:06 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Helicopters are now sending in the first photos of Louisiana and Mississippi under water - amazing how bad the flooding is; not nearly as bad it could be, but 40,000 homes completely destroyed according to estimates. One million homeless so far. Complete swaths of Biloxi, Mississippi wiped out.
Last estimate I heard from the insurance companies was $30 billion, but that could double.
Wow.

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 August 2005 09:10 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by brebis noire:
skdadl, I visited nursing homes when I was in Dallas. Very jarring and dispiriting experience. In fact, it was my first step towards realising what was horribly wrong about U.S. society and my first step to the left of centre.

If you are old, and not rich, nobody cares about you - least of all, any form of government. Since you are no longer a worker, you have no worth.

That is so true and it is the shame of the nation.

Just got home and have been looking at pictures - horrible damage all around - downtown hotels in NO had all their windows blown out and the whole city looks flooded. The Mississippi and Alabama Gulf Coasts look like they got the worst of the wind and the damage there is equally bad. Cops already report dealing with multiple instances of looting.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 29 August 2005 09:46 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Damaged property can be rebuilt. There were fears yesterday that there would be massive casualities as a result of the storm. That doesn't seem to have come to pass, thankfully.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 29 August 2005 10:36 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Search and Rescue hasn't started yet, because no one can get anywhere. Alabama tonight announced they are sending National Guardsmen SAR Teams out to Mississippi and Louisiana as soon as possible. In Mississippi, there was a storm surge that wiped out almost an entire strip of hotels, casinos, and businesses - that sounds kind of ominous to me.

I have a friend in Alabama, but his area was, as far as I know, spared the worst of it.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rob8305
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posted 29 August 2005 10:47 PM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is VERY bad folks, very. The director of Fema was just on Larry King Live and said "from the New Orleans suburbs to Alabama, we have cataclysmic damage. My reports from the field are very grave indeed."

He basically said that downtown NO was not destroyed but pretty much everything from the suburbs east to Alabama was


From: Montrose | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 29 August 2005 10:51 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Hmm I guess its a good thing I had to cancel my halloween New Orleans trip *sigh*

A small good news story:

A couple of friends of ours - two lovely fellows who bought our old house -- had tickets to fly to New Orleans yesterday morning. They were about to cancel when the airline cancelled (New Orleans airport closed), so not only are they safe, they even got a refund.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 29 August 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Katrina and the waves: We're going down to Washington to do nothing

quote:
We probably won't know the worst about Hurricane Katrina until the sun finally comes out tomorrow morning. Because the eye of the storm passed just to the east of New Orleans, and because the winds slightly dimimished at landfall, many are already saying, "It could have been worse."

We hope they're right, but we're not so sure. Already, there are reports of the city's poorest neighborhoods -- home to rows of one-story "shotgun shacks" -- flooded to the rooftops. And already, at least three elderly people died in the hasty evaculation of a nursing home.

The first priority is survival, and here's a link to a site where those of us here in Philly can lend a helping hand through the American Red Cross. (Link via Adam Bonin and the Blinqmeister, who also beat us to the punch with the obscure 1980s pop-music reference that is threatening to crash the Internet today.)

But when the flood waters recede, we hope America will reflect on what's happening today along the Gulf Coast, and maybe see Hurricane Katrina as a wake-up call. Ultimately, it's Mother Nature that's too blame to the storm -- and yet we look at some of the impacts and we also see a tracking map for some of the ways that America has veered off course in the last five years. No mortal could have stopped Katrina -- but here's how our government's policies are making the impact worse.

1) Dumb priorities: What exactly do we mean by that? When President Bush made his decision to cut taxes at the same time he was expanding the anti-terror campaign to a misguided war in Iraq, something had to be cut somewhere.

And one of those things was...you got it -- hurricane protection efforts.



From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 29 August 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:

Last estimate I heard from the insurance companies was $30 billion, but that could double.
Wow.

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


Get ready for another big jump in your property insurance bill.


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Wilf Day
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posted 29 August 2005 11:00 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rob8305:
The director of Fema was just on Larry King Live

And then someone phoned in and said "I have relatives in Kenner, what's the news from there?" and both Larry King's reporters basically said "Where's Kenner?" Turns out it's the suburb of NO right next to their airport. I wonder how the airport is, then?


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 29 August 2005 11:01 PM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of WWL, their AM radio station is on 870 KHz. (right beside the CBC Toronto French-language station on 860) assuming their towers haven't been knocked down. They put out 50,000 watts on a "clear channel" so can frequently be heard in Ontario after dark on a decent quality AM radio.

I did see some road signs in the background of some CNN video that said they were one of the designated "emergency information" station.

Unfortunately WWL-AM doesn't stream audio.

Although many folks think that ham radio is obsolete in this "internet age", the ham radio folks are very active.

ARRL story


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Contrarian
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posted 29 August 2005 11:15 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've seen one report of five deaths,; but there has been flooding, so there probably will be more.
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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 August 2005 11:17 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been watching the feed on WKRG from the link on this thread and I just saw a report that tore my guts out. A reporter on the streets of Biloxi happened upon a man and his sons wandering the street in a daze. He told her his house split in two and his wife slipped from his grasp and was lost. He can't find her. Two other neighbours are lying dead near his house. This was genuine - the poor man was in shock and greif stricken. He walked up the road with his sons. The reporter couldn't contain her grief and cut back to the studio where both anchors were beside themselves and went right to a break. It was heartbreaking. You may see it again later.


Edited to add: it was live. The anchor came back from the break trying to compose himself. Unbelievable.

[ 29 August 2005: Message edited by: Américain Égalitaire ]


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rob8305
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posted 30 August 2005 12:32 AM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
GULFPORT, Miss. (AP) - An emergency official has confirmed that
there have been at least 50 hurricane-related deaths in
Mississippi's Harrison County.

And that's NOT the landfall area.


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Rob8305
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posted 30 August 2005 02:01 AM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New Orleans situation growing dire late tonight. 80% of New Orleans underwater according to the Mayor.
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Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 02:16 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One of the Louisiana folk said, don't be in a hurry to get back home; there be a lot of critters in the water, such as water snakes. Yikes!
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 30 August 2005 09:19 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
According to what I'm watching this morning, the water in NO actually rose overnight thanks to a levee break that was two blocks long. They're finding dead people now. And the meteorologist on CNN marvelled in a way that NO really got cat 2 winds and rain - what would have happened in a direct cat 4 hit is too terrible to contemplate. There are several smaller cities along the Gulf coast that CNN admits, they've heard no news or info coming out of them.
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Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 11:17 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One of the newsrooms just said, "add alligators and crocs" to the nasty stuff in the water. Wow. There's a couple of big fires burning, and the fire trucks can't get anywhere - water is too deep, roads blocked, etc....

The newsroom helicopters are out today, and the flooding and other devastation is truly painful to watch. Reminds me of the reports coming in from Bangladesh thirty years ago, and the tsunami in Asia last winter. I wish I could see the levee breaks, but no photos or video yet. Is the water still pouring in? If the levee is broken, and NO is below sea level, then won't the water level in NO eventually match sea level?

One commentator on Faux News said in some places the water inside houses and businesses is up to the ceilings. He also said it will take weeks, months, and years for these buildings to be restored to their original condition. Everything inside - furniture, carpets, appliances, wallpapper, will likely have to be replaced.

I saw on video a pile of boats jammed into the outside of a building, all piled on top of one another - expensive sailboats. There was a garage with vehicles all slammed into each other - didn't say if it was a new car dealership or used vehicles, but they're all finished. These scenes are being repeated all through NO and Biloxi, which appear to be the worse hit cities so far.

Faux questioned if the international community will respond. I wonder if the rest of the US will respond, first? After all, the US prides itself on being the wealthiest country in the world with the best living standards.

They're going to need truly massive amounts of aid in Louisiana and Mississippi - and a lot of softwood lumber to rebuild. This could be an opportunity for Canada to be gracious and generous to those in need, and to win friends - ship down a thousand tons of lumber, paid from our federal surplus, and just give it to them including cost of shipping. Good idea?


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CourtneyGQuinn
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posted 30 August 2005 11:28 AM      Profile for CourtneyGQuinn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"This could be an opportunity for Canada to be gracious and generous to those in need, and to win friends - ship down a thousand tons of lumber, paid from our federal surplus, and just give it to them including cost of shipping. Good idea?"

amazing idea...American lumber concerns might not like the idea....but doing this could show just how much good will Canadians have


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Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 11:31 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just emailed the idea to the Prime Minister.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 11:31 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will be sending the idea to members of Cabinet all day today.

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 30 August 2005 11:48 AM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Beautifully generous idea...and one sure to give some impetus to the softwood lumber issue... even the yanks might find it embarrassing to continue the countervale with this kind of elephant sitting in the living room. Great idea!!
From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 12:03 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Watching the devastation in the three states, many thousands of tons of lumber will probably be needed, but sending a thousand tons _right now_ is a good first step.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 30 August 2005 12:24 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
and the equivalent to shipping snow to Eskimos. the US Southeast is the heart of the softwood industry in the states. send them a few million gallons of drinking water,by rail.
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Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 12:41 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't know that (about the southeast being the heart of the US softwood industry). Do they have the capacity to fill the need that will be there? I like the idea of a million gallons of drinking water, too. I think that's already being addressed as we speak - the Red Cross has made an appeal already I think. But I haven't heard the various re-building concerns addressed yet.

(I always thought the US lumber industry was mostly concentrated in the northwest and northeast - thanks for correcting me)

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 30 August 2005 01:49 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
the projected path is headed straight for a certain large canadian city ...


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 30 August 2005 05:21 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
well , at least its not going to be a hurrican..
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Rob8305
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posted 30 August 2005 06:18 PM      Profile for Rob8305     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BREAKING NEWS Rising waters force evacuation of tens of thousands who sought refuge in New Orleans rescue centers, state governor says. More soon.
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Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 06:35 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard someone say the water is rising from underneath the city; possibly connected to the two huge levee breaks.

A huge concern in both NO and Mississippi is disease: folks are walking around in filthy water, with no electricity to run hot showers or baths. And, mosquitoes - West Nile was already a problem there. No electricity - in some places, there won't be any for two months - so no airconditioning, stoves or fridges - in an area superheated by the sun and rising humidity. I predict parts of LA and MI will be unliveable very soon.

Out where the refineries are, there won't be electricity for at least a week; so America's reefining capability is shut down. Gas prices are going up, again - and so will everything else.

WalMart announced it's giving a $million to each the Red Cross and Sally Ann, and accepting donations to each. I thought the world's largest retailer, with 350 huge stores in LA and MI alone, could do more.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 30 August 2005 06:36 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BBC reports up to 80 dead. It talks about the man you saw, AE, Harvey Jackson, who lost his wife when the house came apart.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
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posted 30 August 2005 06:44 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, there is some good news in all this.
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Policywonk
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posted 30 August 2005 08:57 PM      Profile for Policywonk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given that many people not already evacuated had the opportunity to reach safety or be rescued the result is better than if the right eyewall had gone directly over New Orleans rather than over coastal Mississippi. However the failure of some of the levees around Lake Pontchartrain means that most of New Orleans still flooded and because New Orleans is below sea level the levees will have to be repaired and the water pumped out before the damage can even be assessed. Meanwhile people are dying because aid can't reach them, and the risk of infectious disease is very high. It is understandable that people want to rebuild, but it would be insanity to consider it without a thorough re-evaluation of gulf coastal and lower Mississippi River development patterns. New Orleans wasn't founded below sea level; it sank because the levees prevented silt deposition, which also allowed coastal wetlands to simply disappear. Another disasterous hurricane is a certainty, possibly but hopefully not this year, and sea levels will continue to rise as a result of global warming.
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Stockholm
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posted 30 August 2005 09:16 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm so sad. I love New Orleans so much. Its one of my favourite places in the world: the French Quarter, the music, the food, the spirit. Its isn't really an American city - its like an independent city-state.

Well if they could rebuild Warsaw to look exactly the way it was pre-1939 - I'm sure New Orleans will rise again.


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Contrarian
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posted 30 August 2005 09:21 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The scientists are being careful not to link recent weather events to global warming because it is difficult to prove whether the connection is real in individual cases. However, some people are making the connection, such as Ross Gelbspan:
quote:
The hurricane that struck Louisiana yesterday was nicknamed Katrina by the National Weather Service. Its real name is global warming.

When the year began with a two-foot snowfall in Los Angeles, the cause was global warming.

When 124-mile-an-hour winds shut down nuclear plants in Scandinavia and cut power to hundreds of thousands of people in Ireland and the United Kingdom, the driver was global warming...

...Although Katrina began as a relatively small hurricane that glanced off south Florida, it was supercharged with extraordinary intensity by the relatively blistering sea surface temperatures in the Gulf of Mexico...



From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 30 August 2005 09:41 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
BBC reports up to 80 dead. It talks about the man you saw, AE, Harvey Jackson, who lost his wife when the house came apart.

Yes, CNN got ahold of the tape and they're playing it regularly.

From the WWL website:

quote:
****ALL RESIDENTS ON THE EAST BANK OF ORLEANS AND JEFFERSON REMAINING IN THE METRO AREA ARE BEING TOLD TO EVACUATE AS EFFORTS TO SANDBAG THE LEVEE BREAK HAVE ENDED. THE PUMPS IN THAT AREA ARE EXPECTED TO FAIL SOON AND 9 FEET OF WATER IS EXPECTED IN THE ENTIRE EAST BANK. WITHIN THE NEXT 12-15 HOURS****

Jeff Parish President. Residents will probably be allowed back in town in a week, with identification only, but only to get essentials and clothing. You will then be asked to leave and not come back for one month.


New Orleans may be a near total loss. If all of those buildings continue to remain underwater, won't their foundations essentially rot to the point where they will all be condemned?

There are growing fears of widespread disease. They have 30,000 people in the Superdome with no power, no toilets and temps around 100 degrees fahrenheit. They don't know where they're going to go and how they will get there but they have to leave.

Martial law has been declared in metro NO. There are reports of shootings and looters in downtown NO - the police have told CNN crews to stay out of the downtown area for fear of carjackings which have become frequent according to the news reports - people are waylaying cars to get out of town.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 30 August 2005 10:09 PM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What global warming? For the Paulie Walnuts view, let's go to the editorial/opinion page of the Toronto Liberal Star (nee Izvestia):

Tomorrow's forecast: Hysterical

quote:
Data fail to back up claims weather is getting worse, says Tad Murty

From time immemorial, people have worried about the weather. And for good reason. From the thunderstorm that contributed to the slaughter of three Roman legions in Germany and the brutal cold that demolished the armies of Napoleon and Hitler, to the cool, wet summer that resulted in Ireland's potato famine, weather has had a massive impact on human history.

Weather affects us significantly today as well. Besides dramatic events such as the 1998 ice storm, weather's vicissitudes impact us daily in ways both crucial — will the rains come before my crops die — and pedestrian — should I bring an umbrella to work?

However, it is only recently that it has become fashionable for governments, environmental activists and the media to worry about the weather 30, 50 or even 100 years in the future.

"Altering climate patterns will cause more frequent and severe extreme weather events ... threatening the health and safety of Canadians and people around the globe," exclaims Environment Canada in Project Green.

Natural Resources Canada posters distributed to schools nationwide claim that "experts anticipate more severe thunderstorms, which can cause injury and property damage, ... (and) more frequent freezing rain events."

Environmental groups seem to be competing with each other for the most terrifying forecasts. While the David Suzuki Foundation warns of increasingly "bizarre weather" and the impact of "new weather patterns" that "will generate unexpected new types of disasters," the Sierra Club goes even further in its 2004 Environmental Report Card. Combining a dozen catastrophes into one sentence, it asserts: "Canada can expect increased persistent droughts, retreating glaciers, more floods, more sudden deluges of rain washing contaminants into watercourses, a warming and melting Arctic, dropping Great Lakes levels, loss of water quality, more ice storms, more forest fires, more severe coastal storm surges and more extremely hot days, and thus, more smog days in summer."

All this would be quite worrisome if it were true. Fortunately, there is no significant scientific data to back up these claims.


Here's hoping a killer hurricane "crosses your desk" real soon, Tad!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 30 August 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've never seen a Wal-Mart being looted. I have now. People wheeling carts of stolen merchandise through an Alabama Wal-Mart with impuntiy - waving at the cameras as they're looting and walking off with armloads of clothes. Unbeleivable. There's another video of people looting while the high winds are still blowing rain. Another one shows security wresling with looters at an electronics store in front a flooded street.

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Américain Égalitaire ]


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 30 August 2005 10:31 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
Something odd, but in hindsight, predictable. In the last 1 - 2 hours befor landfall, the storm made the most propitious diversion and diminuation immaginable. Everyone sighed with relief. Now this was, somehow, managible. But, it turns out, even with god's graces, it is not.

The lake is draining into the basin,water is raising, fires are spreading, people are continuing to die.

Just goes to show how totally unprepared they were for what is inevitable.


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 11:02 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Faux News showed a huge WalMart submerged halfway, I don't remember if it was in Louisiana or Mississippi, and a young woman was trying to kick in the front door - didn't succeed as far as I could see. The water was two-thirds up the side of the building, the woman must have been standing on something, maybe a shopping cart.

One commentator said people are hungry and thirsty, and nothing's open, and they have no way of getting out of the city, no idea when help will arrive, and they are getting desperate. The stores are full of food and people are hungry - what else can anyone expect?

Although taking away shopping carts full of clothes and other non-food items is clearly theft. The cops in one location said there's so much looting going on, and no way of getting anyone to prison, that they've basically been forced just to watch; nothing else they can do.
The stores are likely ruined anyway, with all the flooding and other damage.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 30 August 2005 11:09 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The cops in one location said there's so much looting going on, and no way of getting anyone to prison, that they've basically been forced just to watch; nothing else they can do.

As opposed to NO where the news reports that the police and national guard are merely shooting looters


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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 30 August 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bacchus, do you have a link or source for that? I've seen no reports that looters are being shot but clearly patience is wearing thin.
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Vansterdam Kid
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posted 30 August 2005 11:13 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought there were only 9,000 people in the superdome. This is what I remember reading yesterday.
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 30 August 2005 11:17 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Martial law. Combat troops. Army being diverted for 'undisclosed' purposes. The super-dome Lord of the Flies time.

There is something fishy going on.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 30 August 2005 11:19 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check CNN.com AE 'reports' of shooting and the Governor tell them to be as ruthless as possible and not allowing reporters downtown 'for their safety'
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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 30 August 2005 11:20 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard CNN reporting that the rescued were taken to the Superdome swelling its population to 30,000 - in fact Aaron Brown just said 10 - 20 - 30,000 people "they've heard." The latest print estimate says 10,000 +. I have the feeling no one really knows for sure.

The guy from WDSU in NO is being interviewed by Aaron Brown now and says the National Guard is being called to keep order in the dome.

Also there are other reports of pumps failing in other parts of NO. He just said 10-15,000 people in the dome and its problematic to try to evacuate them.

I think if you read between the lines of what is being said officially by everyone, the situation down there is far worse than they are letting on officially. The TV reporter at the scene seem to be the most honest about what's going on - whouda thunk it? The one time when they can be as melodramatic as they want and be spot on in the analysis.

This is really, really, really getting bad.


edited to add from the CNN report:

quote:
As many as 30,000 people were being housed in the Louisiana Superdome, where toilets were overflowing and there was no air conditioning to provide relief from 90-degree heat.

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Américain Égalitaire ]


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The superdome increased to 10,000 today as more folks wanted in, and a hospital had to evacuate their patients to the superdome due to the rising water in the hospital. The superdome has to be cleared out tomorrow and the next day because all their toilets are overflowing. There's no a/c, and the temperatures are rising. It's a huge, stinking, mess.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 30 August 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it will get worse. I think we will be looking at severe cholera outbreak, looting and shootings and martial law for quite some time
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Papal Bull
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posted 30 August 2005 11:24 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I feel really bad for the New Orleanians.

This is like Lisbon 1755. A city destroyer. A Pompeii 78 CE.

What do you think the economic rammifications are going to be?

Oh and FEMA is coming in to take over.

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 30 August 2005 11:24 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
I thought there were only 9,000 people in the superdome. This is what I remember reading yesterday.

That has more that doubled since yesterday. Everyone being resqued from roofs, etc. is being taken there. Just recentyly, mayor's office announced two more major pumping stations going down. As I say, this gets worse and worse.


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 30 August 2005 11:25 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder how much side effect there will be due to so many National Guards people being in Iraq, or elsewhere; meaning that they aren't at home to help.
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 30 August 2005 11:28 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thats really not a issue since they ar eable to send approx 125,000 guardsmen there. So I would say little or no effect so it wont be a bush bashing tool Im afraid

*thoughful look* unless of course he sits in texas and does SFA but I suspect his handlers are smarter than that


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Boom Boom
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posted 30 August 2005 11:37 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it's absolutely insane for cops and National Guardsmen to be made judge, jury and executioner and allowed to shoot to kill looters, if that is indeed the case.

I think looting is inevitable in a time of extreme calamity such as a massive hurricane and the unknown after-effects - with the possibility that shortages of everything will occur. I think looting is a combination of greed and the survival instinct, not to mention mob mentality.

Since when does recovery of a shopping cart full of stolen groceries or clothing or small appliances justify the taking of a human life?

I think someone's priorities are seriously twisted.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 30 August 2005 11:39 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
This is, at end, bigger than any number of N.G.'men could handle. That said, if more were available at home for disaser relief, far fewer would die and amny would suffer less.

(always looking for the silver lining, I add), could this/will this help tilt public opinion against Bush/Iraq ??


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Bacchus
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posted 30 August 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This would be the same police force that used to do 'hits' for a price and for which two cops were arrested for robbing a bank on their lunch hour? In uniform with their police car?

Mind you it was years ago I hard these stories about the NO police force but I havent heard of any great improvements either. And louisiana was the state that passed a law allowing you to shoot and kill anyone approcahing your car if you thought they were gonna carjack you


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Policywonk
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posted 30 August 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for Policywonk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[URL=http://tinyurl.com/chbxz]

According to this article, there is a growing body of evidence that hurricane intensity has increased and will continue to increase as sea surface tempuratures rise, although that is not the only factor in the number and intensity of hurricanes. There is absolutely no doubt that hurricane damage is increasing because of coastal development patterns, or that storm surges will become more damaging as sea levels rise.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 30 August 2005 11:42 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really doubt it James. How many national guardsmen are in Iraq? 30,000? 40,000? That still leaves several hundred thousand around. I really dont see it as a dent at all

I checked online and theres about 130,000 troops in Iraq of which about half are national guardsmen so roughly 65,000

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Bacchus ]

Hmm another update. There are about 135,000 troops in Iraq of which 41% were national guardsmen but this is presently being trimmed to 11% (this started in June)

Washington post update on it as of July 1

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Bacchus ]

Total numbers of National guardsmen -460,000 of which 135,000 are active status at any given time around the world. In contrast only 9000 national guardsmen were sent to vietnam

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: Bacchus ]


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 30 August 2005 11:45 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sounds like the cops in James Lee Burke's books; but that's supposed to be fiction.

Didn't someone mention above that Bush cut funding for measures against hurricanes? That might be a more effective club to use on him.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 31 August 2005 12:01 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a 2001 quote on the lack of funding for hurricane research; note the situation goes back two decades, according to Goldenberg.

"Despite [its] achievements, base funding for Hurricane Research Division (HRD) has not increased for the last two decades and its purchasing power has been severely eroded by inflation and increased overhead costs. Because of the lack of funding, the scientific staff has decreased from 40 to 26 federal employees and will continue to decline without new financial support. Another consequence of inadequate funding is that HRD has not been able to upgrade crucial computer equipment that is necessary to expedite its research. Furthermore, key investigations of hurricane motion, rainfall distribution, and rapid intensification are slow to be transitioned to operations at the National Hurricane Center."

"Our funding is going down and down," Goldenberg says. "We are wondering if our lab is going to continue to exist. It's that bad."

from: http://tinyurl.com/bsb35

edited to add date (2001)

[ 31 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 31 August 2005 12:10 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a more recent link:

From the 6/6/05 New Orleans City Business:

In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding…The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now.

....Landrieu said the Bush administration is not making Corps of Engineers funding a priority. “I think it’s extremely shortsighted,” Landrieu said. “When the Corps of Engineers’ budget is cut, Louisiana bleeds. These projects are literally life-and-death projects to the people of south Louisiana.”

from: http://tinyurl.com/8v4js

[ 31 August 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 31 August 2005 12:21 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The latest

quote:
Rescue teams were still picking up people throughout the city Tuesday, leaving them on island-like highway overpasses and on a levee to wait to be moved again. Eventually, they will end up in the Superdome, where 15,000 to 20,000 people have taken already refuge, said Louisiana National Guard Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau. One person died at the Superdome attempting to jump from one level to a lower one.

Unbelievable. Why would someone try that??

quote:
Among the evacuees are 5,000 inmates from New Orleans and suburbs that need to be moved. Officials were trying to figure out how.

The historic French Quarter appeared to have been spared the worst flooding, but its stores were getting the worst of human nature.

"The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked," Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. "We're using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops."

As Sen. Mary Landrieu flew over the area by helicopter, a group of people smashed a window at a convenience store and jumped in.

At a drug store in the French Quarter, people were running out with grocery baskets and coolers full of soft drinks, chips and diapers. One looter shot and wounded a fellow looter, who was taken to a hospital and survived.

Only rooftops were visible in several neighborhoods and the occasional building was in flames.

On a grassy hill in the Carrolton neighborhood, a group of people watched the water quickly rising in the street, about a foot an hour by some estimates.

William Washington had gone to bed in dry house Monday night, well after the hurricane had passed. The water came up Tuesday after the levee broke, and by afternoon his home was flooded.

"We're trying to get to the Superdome," Washington said as he waited with neighbors. "We're waiting for the National Guard. The radio mentioned that they would pick people up."

With hundreds, if not thousands, of people still stranded in flooded homes, attics and rooftops across the city, rescue boats were bypassing the dead to reach the living, Mayor C. Ray Nagin said.

"We're not even dealing with dead bodies," Nagin said. "They're just pushing them on the side."

A few more feet of water could wipe out the entire city water system, said Terry Ebbert, the city's homeland security chief.

The intestates are impassable, the bridges may be unstable and no one knows if the buildings can withstand the damage brought by Katrina, the governor said after flying over the region.



From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Hoffman
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posted 31 August 2005 12:26 AM      Profile for Jesse Hoffman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God, see if you can spot the difference here.

http://tinyurl.com/8mn8t

http://tinyurl.com/aqx3j

Disgusting. I am so pissed off.


From: Peterborough, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 31 August 2005 12:28 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on the looting

quote:
Looting became a problem in both Biloxi and in New Orleans, in some cases in full view of police and National Guardsmen. One police officer was shot in the head by a looter in New Orleans, but was expected to recover, Sgt. Paul Accardo, a police spokesman.

On New Orleans' Canal Street, which actually resembled a canal, dozens of looters ripped open the steel gates on clothing and jewelry stores, some packing plastic garbage cans with loot to float down the street. One man, who had about 10 pairs of jeans draped over his left arm, was asked if he was salvaging things from his store.

"No," the man shouted, "that's EVERYBODY'S store!"

Looters at a Wal-Mart brazenly loaded up shopping carts with items including micorwaves, coolers and knife sets. Others walked out of a sporting goods store on Canal Street with armfuls of shoes and football jerseys.

Outside the broken shells of Biloxi's casinos, people picked through slot machines to see if they still contained coins and ransacked other businesses.

"People are just casually walking in and filling up garbage bags and walking off like they're Santa Claus," said Marty Desei, owner of a Super 8 motel.



From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 31 August 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
You know, I agree. A 1 billiom $ donation of lumber from the Govt. of Canada would resonate, would speak over the head of the administration. And we have it, a projrcted 9 B surpluss this fiscal. Yeah, it would piss off some USian lumber corps, but so what.

So let it be written.
So let it be done.

[ 31 August 2005: Message edited by: James ]


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 31 August 2005 01:10 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So - all the shootings so far: are they looters shooting other looters? at the cops? I haven't seen on the news as far as I recall any cops shooting at looters - unless my memory fails me, which is entirely possible.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 31 August 2005 01:43 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse Hoffman:
God, see if you can spot the difference here.

http://tinyurl.com/8mn8t

http://tinyurl.com/aqx3j

Disgusting. I am so pissed off.



Good catch. How totally fucking racist! I'm writing them right now.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
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posted 31 August 2005 01:49 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, unfortunately, the one photo is from AP and the other is from AFP, and Yahoo! says feedback should be sent to the respective sources, so it will be hard to make a case of double-standard. I guess I'll just write AP.

feedback@ap.org


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 31 August 2005 02:04 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nonethless Yahoo did choose to post both photos, with the descriptions intact (as if someone can't see what they're pictures of).
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Hoffman
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posted 31 August 2005 02:07 AM      Profile for Jesse Hoffman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know the copy editor of a small-ish west-coast American newspaper through online correspondence, and I forwarded it to him. He got it changed for his newspaper, and in turn passed it along to some of his journalist friends who may be able to do the same.

It's pretty damn blatant though.


From: Peterborough, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 31 August 2005 02:15 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The population of New Orleans is about 75% African-American, so by the law of averages 3 out of every 4 looters would be Black.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 31 August 2005 02:27 AM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bacchus, did you suggest Bush's handlers would be too smart to let him be seen doing insensitive things in these troubled times?

For most of today Bush did his usual play with the soldiers routine, comparing invading Iraq to WWII.

quote:
President Bush commerates the 60th anniversary of the Allies' victory over Japan at a naval base in Coronado, California

But later;

quote:
President Bush plays a guitar presented to him by Country Singer Mark Wills, right, backstage following his visit to Naval Base Coronado, Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005. Bush visited the base to deliver remarks on V-J Commemoration Day. (AP Photo/ABC News, Martha Raddatz)
AP - Aug 30 11:56 AM

But hey, at least it's not a fiddle. And it is a deluge, not fire.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 31 August 2005 03:04 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The one good thing that may come out of this catastrophe is that it could bring down the Bush administration.

Responses...or lack there of to natural disasters have a tendency to bring down governments.

To use an extreme example, the Somoza regime's looting of relief supplies after the '72 Nicaraguan earthquake was a major factor in his eventual overthrow during the Sandinista revolution.

Where's "W" when all hell is breaking loose? On vacation of course!


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 31 August 2005 03:09 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by radiorahim:
Responses...or lack there of to natural disasters have a tendency to bring down governments.

When has a lack of response to a natural disaster ever brought down a US government? How could this "bring down" the Bush administration? We don't have a parlimentary system.

Sorry, but Bush is here until January 2009.

[edited for clarity]

[ 31 August 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 31 August 2005 03:24 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm just watching CNN. This is a truly horrendous disaster. Looking at the pictures, I can't imagine what the people who chose to ride out the storm in New Orleans or on the beaches were thinking. I know some of them were too poor to leave but at least they should have tried to make a shelter. If Katrina had hit New Orleans as a category 5 storm, probably very few of them would have gotten out alive.

I'm also confused about the apparent lack of federal response. They're just now bringing in the military - they should have been in first thing after the storm. This is the wealthiest country in the world but you wouldn't know it from the response.

The water is still rising tonight and there are still people stuck in their attics and on roofs.

These people are crazy if they try to rebuild the city at its current location.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 31 August 2005 04:24 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The effects of the disaster are spreading. Apparently the Atlanta region is now a week away from running out of gasoline because its pipelines all come from Louisiana.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 31 August 2005 04:31 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 31 August 2005: Message edited by: kurichina ]


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
ephemeral
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posted 31 August 2005 06:56 AM      Profile for ephemeral     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
katrina was supposed to hit hamilton the hardest (though nowhere near as hard as new orleans, of course) at 4 a.m. i was up and watching it from my balcony. mama mia! the winds screeching past my ears. the windows are a rattling.
From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 31 August 2005 08:19 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was raining steadily but not wildly here when I got up (about 4 a.m.). I think it has just tapered off over the last hour (now 7.15) -- no, maybe that's still some pitter-patter stuff, but nothing dramatic. Lots of dark-streaked clouds -- very odd effect.

It was odd to sit listening to the rain in the dark and realize that it was the same storm that was passing by so innocently overhead here, while the people who met her two days ago were still coping with all those horrors, and will be, for a long time.

Interesting detail above about New Orleans not having been built below sea level but having sunk because of the levees. I hadn't known that. I've always wondered what could have possessed the French to put the city there in the first place.

Any other fans of Prevost's Manon Lescaut (1731) about? He has his heroine fetch up in New Orleans and then the wilds of Louisiana at the end, even though he'd never left France himself. Curious bit of C18 French "orientalizing," even though it's not about the "Orient," strictly speaking. Beautiful novel, too.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 31 August 2005 08:42 AM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the update, skdadl, I remember a few hurricane remnants coming through southern Quebec over the past 15 years or so - mainly Hugo in 1989, and another one in 1999, can't remember the name. There was lots of wind and rain...so we've battened down the hatches here, and picked up some unnecessary debris that's been kicking around the farm, just so no body gets hurt. We'll probably just get a lot of rain, as it's raining already from another system, I think.

From what I remember of the southern states of Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, the geographic fragility is striking. I don't even know how the French managed to set up a colony there. That, along with mosquitoes, alligators, alligator fish and all kinds of other critters must have made life humid hell for inhabitants - during the good years. There's an awful lot of grinding poverty in and around New Orleans, I guess that's no secret, but to see it is another thing.


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 31 August 2005 08:54 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First thing I think of when I see TV reporters standing out in hurricanes -- way back in the sixties, I think, when Dan Rather was still a reporter for CBS, even before his White House days, he covered the effects of a hurricane and flooding somewhere in Texas, and I'm sure he showed us some diamondbacks swimming along in the floodwaters.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 31 August 2005 09:34 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WWLTV (CBS) has streaming video of New Orleans (aerial)

Jebus. Some of the neighbourhoods look more like marinas than streetscapes.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 31 August 2005 09:36 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
U.S. to release oil from reserves

quote:

Associated Press
August 31, 2005


WASHINGTON — Energy Secretary Samuel W. Bodman said Wednesday the Bush administration has decided to release oil from federal petroleum reserves to help refiners affected by Hurricane Katrina.

The move, which was expected later in the day, is designed to give refineries in the Gulf Coast area a temporary supply of crude oil to take the place of interrupted shipments from tankers or offshore oil platforms affected by the storm.

The U.S. Minerals Management Service said Tuesday that 95 percent of the Gulf of Mexico's oil output was out of service. Oil prices surged back above $70 in European markets on Wednesday but dipped quickly after disclosure of the decision involving the release of supplies from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Eight refineries were shut down due to Katrina — half of them producing gasoline.

The government's emergency petroleum stockpile — nearly 700 million barrels of oil stored in underground salt caverns along the Texas and Louisiana Gulf Coast — was established to cushion oil markets during energy disruptions.



From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 31 August 2005 09:42 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From CNN.com:

quote:
As parts of flooded New Orleans slip into chaos and Gulf Coast communities struggle to deal with the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina, Louisiana's governor is declaring Wednesday a day of prayer.

I'm sure that's going to be a big help.

CNN


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
alisea
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posted 31 August 2005 09:54 AM      Profile for alisea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From John McPhee's 1989 classic, The Control Of Nature, comes this excerpt on the historical geography of New Orleans:

"Something like half of New Orleans is now below sea level -- as much as fifteen feet. New Orleans, surrounded by levees, is emplaced between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi like a broad shallow bowl. Nowhere is New Orleans higher than the river's natural bank.

Underprivileged people live in the lower elevations, and always have. The rich -- by the river -- occupy the highest ground. In New Orleans, income and elevation can be correlated on a literally sliding scale: the Garden District on the highest level, Stanley Kowalski in the swamp. The Garden District and its environs are locally known as uptown. ..."

Full article: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2005/08/30/mcphee/index.html


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 31 August 2005 09:59 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks very much for that link, alisea. John McPhee: grrrrrreat! writer.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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posted 31 August 2005 10:31 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
A question for anyone in the know about wildlife in the American South:

What types of creatures (potentially dangerous) could be swimming around that dark, murky water that the stranded residents are wading through? Snakes? Alligators? Sea Lions? Crocidiles? Dangerous fish?


From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 31 August 2005 10:38 AM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Louisiana's governor is declaring Wednesday a day of prayer

That's just a key phrase to get the reich's attention, and some $$$.

Skdadl, I saw the sliding scale of elevation and income level apply in Dallas as well. When there were heavy rains, the poor areas of town were systematically flooded, while the richer areas were like 'what flood? There's no problem...' I saw this happen twice in two years, they were called 'flash floods'. A good way to keep the poor down.

I wouldn't worry too much about the wildlife. There are a lot of critters in surrounding bayous, but with the hurricane and flooding, they are probably disoriented and not concentrating on predation. I'd worry tons more about the general conditions of misery and hardship, and the way the most disadvantaged will be affected.


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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posted 31 August 2005 10:42 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I'm not bringing up the wildlife out of concern for their wellbeing; my concern is that impact they could have on the stranded residents, both in terms of bitings, and spread of disease.
From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 31 August 2005 10:55 AM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's how I read you, Kevin, maybe my post wasn't clear...I was saying that I wouldn't worry (in the short term) about creatures such as alligators preying on humans, actually apart from wildlife reserves like the Sabine, Pointe aux Chenes and such (actually there are more than I had thought in southern Louisiana), I don't remember that wildlife was really that ubiquitous near urban areas. From what I remember though, besides alligators, garfish (looks like a cross between a fish and an alligator, aka the Cajun barracuda), huge crabs and many varieties of insects were kind of scary, though no more than just having huge amounts of water in what is normally habitable space for humans.

Looking at a map of southern Louisiana is startling - the terrain resembles a sieve.


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
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posted 31 August 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 31 August 2005: Message edited by: Rand McNally ]


From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 31 August 2005 11:09 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The current Intellicast infrared loop of the remains of Katrina

(Wait a few moments for the looping to begin to work -- then you can see how the storm moved over several hours.)

It's interesting to see the circular motion, now greatly dispersed, of course, still continuing -- as of 14.00 GMT (about fifteen minutes ago), extending from Maine way out into the Atlantic but then swinging down southwards again.

Notice also other little hot spots in the Caribbean.

I'm seeing our street drying in places, although we are still overcast, and I keep thinking that I can hear rain.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
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posted 31 August 2005 11:09 AM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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