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Author Topic: The Day After
judym
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posted 12 September 2001 12:03 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thoughts about what happened, and what's going to happen.

I was just watching some CNN online video when I kind of phased.

In my mind, I saw Baghdad lit up at night. I saw images of the bunker of women and children that was targeted during the Gulf War. I saw the footage of an airman shouting, "This is a Turkey Shoot!" as he shot at fleeing Iraqi soldiers.

Outside my window, someone whistles "Star-Spangled Banner." Time to go to work.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: judym ]


From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 12 September 2001 12:18 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Last week, the US urged both sides in the Mideast not to continue with "a cycle of violence." Now they are faced with an attack on their civilian population, and have an opportunity to practice what they preach.


I believe this terrible event will be used to
justify a larger military presence throughout the world, even though Mario Cuomo is so right to say that without world justice there will be no world peace.

And speaking purely personally, this event does sensitise me to the reality of what it must like to be bombed from the air. Americans and Canadians have never experienced, til now, something which shaped
Europeans of the last generation. The bombing of the World Trade Centre just at the moment when everyone was due at work was a gigantic crime. Now think about Operation Rolling Thunder in Vietnam, or a hundred other military "strikes". Of course the latter does not justify the former, but does it make us wonder about those like Kissinger who are feted despite what was done there?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 12:19 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I have no idea how the US gov't is going to respond. I can hope that clear heads will prevail, but I can't even hazard a guess. At least George Bush Sr. had a clear enemy when his "great war" happened. Dubya may have more on his plate than he bargained for.

OTOH, could Gore really have been a better commander-in-chief in this kind of situation? Would Nader? It's really hard to say. Is Bush's election to office one of the factors that motivated the attack, or is that of no consequence to others' hatred of America?

It's wait-and-see time. Only history will tell. It's really hard for me to even begin to speculate.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 12 September 2001 12:19 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with you, Judy. I can't believe that everyone's immediate response to this tragedy is to call for the commencement of WW3. When is the simple question 'why?' going to be asked?

Now I'm not saying (in any way, shape or form) that there is any justification for this horror. But all the rhetoric about 'God' and 'freedom' being under attack in American newscasts sickens me. If it indeed was Islamic fundamentalists who did this, don't they mouth exactly the same words to sanctify their actions?

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]


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wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 12:43 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think anyone is advocating WWIII but if America does not respond strongly, mercilessly, the deaths would be in vain.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
flatland
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posted 12 September 2001 12:45 PM      Profile for flatland     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The violence in Isreal and Palistine ,Afghanistan pale in compariason to yesterdays events.
If the people with a mission to supplant there way of life upon others or attack you because you disagee with them are allowed to continue then we all will perish in the sensless violence of the Infitadah...

Yes....the enemy is at the gates....


From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 12:47 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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'lance
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posted 12 September 2001 12:49 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm thinking of Seymour Hersh's New Yorker piece of a year or so ago, about the general who ordered the mass, indiscriminate slaughter of those fleeing Iraqi troops, as well as of some captured and wounded men. He thought his boys needed to let off steam.

Colin Powell is doing the talk show rounds talking about how "this is war."

I hate to add to an atmosphere of gloom and pessimism. But if restraint wasn't on the cards in Iraq, where most of the 250 or so American deaths were due to "friendly fire" or accidents, I can't see how it will prevail now.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
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posted 12 September 2001 12:50 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I don't care, I'm going to repost the whole thing. Wagepeace, I think you should read it.

Among the few public figures who showed both a reasoned and an
emotional response today was former NY governor Mario Cuomo. He was
pilloried, to use a favourite word of my absolute least favourite
babbler, when he said that the way to ensure that such attacks didn't
happen again was to make a more just world. "Civilization" is the
answer, he said. We've got to be more civilized, and ensure that the
strong help the weak, and don't oppress or exploit them. I thought he
was right on. Without minimizing the horror, but without seeking in
turn to dehumanize others as so many were dehumanized and killed or
maimed today, he sought to be bigger than the self-righteous killers
behind this event. Sadly, such far-sightedness is rare.

I keep thinking back to a book I read, Jonathon Glover's _Humanity: A
Moral History of the Twentieth Century_ -- I strongly encourage all to
read it -- and how,as he relates, what may have saved us from nuclear
holocaust was JFK's remembering pictures of people in Hiroshima. He
thought he didn't want to see anyone suffer like that, anywhere in the
world. I don't see that human response very much today. It's us and
them, the "decent people of the world" and those beyond the pale,
against whom our crimes have been and will be justified. During the
Cuban missile crises, having just read _The Guns of August_, JFK also
remembered how, leading up to World War I, the major powers gradually
locked themselves into positions from which they could not retreat,
and were propelled forward into an orgy of senseless destruction.

The pure horror of today's events, played over and over on our TV
screens, is close to us because we can relate to the victims; we can
imagine we know someone there, or maybe we really do know people
there; because it punctures many of our certainties, the rhythms of
our lives; because it's so singular an event in our own lives, as
North Americans, that no one I know can recall a parallel. Of course,
there have been countless hideous deaths, for many of which America is
responsible, all over the world. But this seems different to us,
because it is directed at us or those who are like us. We can't
imagine being a Chechen woman whose son has just been tortured to
death, or a Rwandan butchered by Western-backed Hutu militias, or an
Iraqi killed by a US bomb.

Yet, while feeling the horror of this event in all its immediacy, I am
disgusted by the reptilian-brain response of many people I see, the
clamour for revenge and senseless retaliation. People filled with
hatred because they feel weak and victimized will not be destroyed or
deterred by such action, which will only deepen resentment and
hostility. Like the hydra, where one head is cut, two will
appear. Wisdom is the only way out of this, in the long term. People
get angry when others suggest forgiveness. But wouldn't that be the
most radical thing, unprecedented in history, that anyone could do?
It might even be Christian, for a change.

Today, we see others trying to dehumanize Palestinians and Arabs by
pointing to that segment of their population that also succumbed to
the urges of the reptilian brain. The whole thing is depressing.
Time to head for the forest with some poetry and a lute; time to
become a Buddhist monk again. I don't think our current leaders know
how to do anything but make it worse.

To be fair to those leaders, though, if I were them, I'd probably
think, "we can't let this go unpunished, or we'll be inviting more."
Of course, the evidence is that every punishment in turn creates a new
retaliation, but I still probably would succumb to this
thinking. Probably I'd decide to bomb the hell out of Bin Laden's base
1 hour east of Qandahar, and for that matter Mullah Omar's base one
hour north of Qandahar. (Gee how do I know that, you wonder? A
friend works in Afghanistan; and in a former job of mine, the weekly
reports featured a lot of news from Afghanistan.) Then I'd wreck the
only two good roads in Afghanistan, the roads leading from Qandahar to
those two houses. Then I'd fund the rebel alliance up the wazoo,
though it'd create ever more misery for the Afghan people. And I'd
tell Pakistan to get its regulars the f*ck out of Afghanistan and stop
supporting the Taliban, right now or else. Of course, this would only
strengthen the already strong fundamentalist forces inside Pakistan.

But I bet none of that, ultimately, would stop a similar thing from
happening. What *would* is what Mario Cuomo said. But he's been
pilloried for it. This day is dark in so many ways.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 01:01 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is indeed us vs. them!

Yes, the decent people in the world have been attacked because, though US policy may not be perfect, the last time I looked, the US didn't go around crashing civilian airliners into office buildings.

To compare a treacherous sneak attack with a publicly sanctioned military operation is apples and oranges.

The US and it's allies is not in the business of sneak attacks. Woe betide those who are behind this evil act - the retribution must be merciless.

This can never happen again. If it can happen in New York, it can happen in Winnipeg.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 01:10 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wagepeace, when you say America should respond mercilessly, you are speaking the language of the Osama Bin Ladens of the world. He also feels that terrible crimes have been committed, and he feels he knows who did them. He also feels justified, even obliged, in "responding mercilessly", without regard for others' humanity, as we already know from the Nairobi bombings. Yesterday is what merciless response looks like. If you think about it, I'm sure that's not what you advocate.

If you do advocate it, then I must condemn you as morally equivalent to Osama Bin Laden. Does that sound harsh? It is. All the atrocities of the world have depended on the type of dehumanization and self-righteousness which you seem to be leaning towards. And many atrocities have been prevented because people have come out and denounced such dehumanization. Therefore I denounce it here, in the strongest terms possible. You really want to show "no mercy"? Then you have lost your humanity, too.

Actually, wagepeace, in my original posting the wording about revenge and retaliation as a "solution" was this:

quote:
It's been tried, and shown to fail, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. It's stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.


Here are some links to stories from that other thread. I just feel that in all the confusion, most people won't have seen them, and there is good stuff in them.

William Pfaff in the Herald Tribune:

quote:
Even a totalitarian security state cannot deal with this - even if it were to suppress basic civil liberties. It is extremely important to understand this, since there will be two natural reactions to what has happened, both of them essentially futile.
First there will be continuing calls for revenge against whomever is responsible, presuming that the author is eventually identified.

The practical uselessness of revenge has repeatedly been demonstrated, and continues to be demonstrated in the Middle East, since those who employ terrorism are not functioning on a pragmatic scale of reward and punishment. As the Israelis find, making martyrs of your enemies invites further martyrdoms.

The second reaction will be that the United States needs even more elaborate defenses than now exist. Yet the Pentagon, CIA, NSA and the rest of the American apparatus of national security proved incapable of preventing the attacks Tuesday. They are incapable of preventing their repetition in some other version.

There are no technological defenses, as such, against this sort of thing. Surely, if nothing else comes out of the attacks Tuesday, they ought to have demonstrated to Americans the irrelevance of national missile defense.
There are ordinary security measures that can be taken or improved, but the nature of attacks mounted from within the regular functions of society, means that no comprehensive or conclusive defense exists. The entire history of terrorism in both 19th and 20th centuries has demonstrated that.

The final and most profound lesson of these events is one that it will be hardest for government to accept - this government in particular. It is that the only real defense against external attack is serious, continuing and courageous effort to find political solutions for national and ideological conflicts that involve the United States.

The immediate conclusion nearly everyone has drawn about the origin of these attacks is that they come out of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle. It is reasonable to think that this is so, although there is as yet no proof.

For more than 30 years the United States has refused to make a genuinely impartial effort to find a resolution to that conflict. It has involved itself in the Middle East in a thousand ways, but has never accepted a responsibility for dealing impartially with the two sides - locked in their shared agony and their mutual tragedy.

If current speculation about these bombings proves to be true, the United States has now been awarded its share in that Middle Eastern tragedy.


I'm not normally a Polly Toynbee fan, but she turned in a not bad effort today:

quote:

What will it do to America's psyche? That is what the world trembles to discover. Nothing good, everyone fears. The urge to retaliate will be powerful - though until it is known against whom, the scale, size and danger of following that instinct is unknowable. But remember the swift cruise missile retaliation against an Afghan mosque in vain search for Osama bin Laden's lair, and the unguided cruise attack on a Sudan pharmaceutical factory after the bombing of US embassies. They achieved nothing beyond deepening the passionate hatred of America in those corners of the globe. Bad intelligence, bad targeting, aimless firing off of missiles seemed to Clinton a political necessity.

So for the sake of world sanity and limiting the scale of this calamity, around the world people will be fervently hoping that this was another Oklahoma-style militia attack, an all-American home-grown madness. But few realistically imagine a bunch of backwoods rednecks pulled off something like this. Every expert on international affairs out commenting yesterday was filled with foreboding. "Very dangerous, very, very dangerous," one said over and over again, surveying this greatest global shudder since the Cuba missile crisis.

This has set back the cause of liberalism everywhere. Tolerance, negotiation, finding slow but sure solutions to conflict, the rule of reason over madness - these died along with the thousands of victims yesterday. Atrocity is in danger of becoming the common language of disputes, revenge the only response. Anti-Americanism takes on a vile hue as celebrations break out along the West Bank.

Only 10 years ago when the iron curtain came crashing down in Russia, the optimistic talk was all of the peace dividend. How fatally badly the west has managed world affairs since then. How little hope that better not worse will come from this.


Other comments:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,550359,00.html


http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,550358,00.html

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
prince
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posted 12 September 2001 01:13 PM      Profile for prince     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A business associate sent me this link. I hope you find it useful

Spirituality and Politics: What we each can do to create a better world.


From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 12 September 2001 01:14 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's so quiet. I'm roasting marshallows in my fireplace, listening to the radio, and I started crying half an hour ago because I have a basement full of wood, my face is clean, and one of my closest friends is right with me and she hugs me whenever I ask. I am the luckiest person in the world right now, that's how I feel.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 12 September 2001 01:17 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wagepeace:
"When I last looked " peasants in Columbia were being butchered by chainsaws wielded by right-wing paramilitaries. Funding of said paramilitaries... certainly not Osmin bin laden.
A certain Texan oil man yes.

"us and them"
It must be wondrous to live in a world of such rigid dichotomies


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 12 September 2001 01:19 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd just like to point out, wagepeace, that many terrible things have been done under one or another version of "never again."
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 01:20 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This can never happen again. If it can happen in New York, it can happen in Winnipeg.


But why would anyone want to attack Winnipeg? I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm being serious. I'm not trying to "blame the victim" here, but the less you piss people off the less likely they are to hurt you.

Until recently, Canada's had one of the best reputations in the world for compassionate foreign policy. Our reputation's been tarnished over the past 15 years, but it's still pretty good. Terrorists don't tend to attack Canada for a reason, and it ain't JUST because we're such a small country.

I agree that the US MUST make a very decisive response, but must it be a grand military one? They have a really tough job ahead of them. They can't just let it go, and do nothing. That would send the message that terrorism works. But what kind of response can they make that doesn't result in an escalation of hostilities.

Personally, I hope the FBI becomes a bigger player in this drama than the US military. A legal response would be more appropriate than a military one, IMHO. Treating those responsible as criminals would send a more appropriate (and perhaps humiliating) message than treating them as an enemy, which could end up legitimizing their cause.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 01:20 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry folks, a treacherous act of war requires a full scale response. Like it or not, we are in this thing with the Americans because our way of life was attacked.

Perhaps the devastation was not severe enough for some people to accept that the US is going to be on a war footing henceforth.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
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posted 12 September 2001 01:21 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wagepeace, not everyone has the military might the U.S. has, so not everyone will be using the correct military planes. As we saw yesterday, people with a grudge will figure out alternatives.

The U.S. military has never been sneaky? The Contras? Cambodia? Panama? Granada? Babies being thrown out of incubators in Kuwait? The wipeout of Iraqi troops as they tried to return home after surrender?

Proper military planes go in. Proper soldier talk about a city being lit up "like a Christmas tree." How do you think that translates to the people in that country, and the people who identify with that people?

It sits in the gut like a cancer. And cancer only grows when it isn't treated with understanding.


From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 12 September 2001 01:23 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's exactly it, Judym. Thanks for saying what I couldn't figure out how to write.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 01:24 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well wagepeace is obviously snugly settled into complacent certainty, so I won't bother arguing with him anymore.

Mediaboy,

quote:
Personally, I hope the FBI becomes a bigger player in this drama than the US military. A legal response would be more appropriate than a military one, IMHO. Treating those responsible as criminals would send a more appropriate (and perhaps humiliating) message than treating them as an enemy, which could end up legitimizing their cause.

I fully agree with this. Those who have committed this terrible crime are fully culpable not only under criminal statutes (and directing a crime from another country is a crime in both countries, in most cases), but also under the the Geneva Conventions.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 01:26 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Some people thought that the Oklahoma bombing qualified as an "act of war". Luckily, it was treated as a criminal matter. McVeigh was given a fair trial, and found guilty. Terry Nichols is awaiting his trial.

True, this event is much much larger. True, those responsible were likely non-Americans. But if the US wants to take the moral high-ground, the response should be as "firm but fair" as the response to the Oklahoma bombing.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 01:31 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Judy M wrote:

quote:
The U.S. military has never been sneaky? The Contras? Cambodia? Panama? Granada? Babies being thrown out of incubators in Kuwait? The wipeout of Iraqi troops as they tried to return home after surrender?

Those actions were sanctioned by the US Constitution. Also, the United States is not generally in the business of killing tens of thousands of people in a single day unless they are indeed at war - not a police action, war.

Public support for this will be unshakeable because the US was attacked. Regardless of past sins and the US is certainly a sinful nation, this attack was deliberate and treacherous, it was well organized and likely well financed.

So, let's make it clear- US past actions have generally been consistent with a mandate.

Also, you make reference to to soldier talk.

As a former soldier and one who is deeply involved in humanitarian demining, I can tell you that when war occurs, soldiers very often become immersed in blood-lust. Some say it is a psychological condition that takes over because it is against our very nature to want to torch 4 month old babies - yet soldiers do this.

I don't think it's fair to characterize this situation and an American reponse as one wear blood-lust would take over.

With any "good" war, there must be a "just" cause. I would suggest to you that being attacked would require a "good" and "just" response.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 12 September 2001 01:33 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michael Moore, on the attack.

quote:

What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden! Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA! Don’t take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out.

When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.

We abhor terrorism -- unless we’re the ones doing the terrorizing. We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me.


[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 01:36 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sitting in the 5th floor of a building on Parliament Hill. I am dressed in black. The only accesories are my sandals and Cross pendant. My soul wept yesterday. I was frightened. Not the same kind of frightened as I was being chased by a bear... the "frightened" being fear of what comes next. All of our worlds have changed forever. I don't know if it is over yet either. I left the Hill yesterday, terrified. A terrorist attack has indeed accomplished what it had originally set out to do. I was calling all of my loved ones yesterday. But none of them know what to say either. None of them have dealt with this before. No one has. Not to this global degree. I feel like I need to find a receptical to inject all of my fear and grief into. My husband and I pulled ourselves away from the tv at 10pm last night. We went for a walk. The streets are deserted. Our Capital is silent. We realized that we were breathing in the initial moments of a new era. Our generation felt rudderless? Well, how's this for a defining moment. We walked through the Glebe, and went to the church steps. Our spirits wounded, unable to comprehend the gravity and tradgety that must be felt by those that lost so much. You feel guilty sitting in your warm apartment, not bleeding, watching it over and over. But then you realize that you haven't cried like that ever before. And perhaps, after the the last body is found, and those responsible are eliminated, and the last family recieves closure, we can draw off of this raw feeling we all have now. The humanity we all share. Maybe we can all pause and reflect on what we value in life. What matters. Maybe we can turn to our communities, and talk to the God we may worship. I just hope that there is a world left for everyone tommorrow. I pray that we can overcome this. I pray that we can rise from the ashes. Let's try to be compassionate and patient with eachother. It's all we have left to do.

I echo your feelings wage.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Trinitty ]


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 01:39 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Audra. Moore is my absolute favourite "left" writer. His perspective is very pragmatic.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 September 2001 01:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Flags are at half-mast, BTW.

judym: That baby incubator thing turned out to be a fabrication by the girl, who turned out to be the daughter of a high-ranking Kuwaiti ambassador.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
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posted 12 September 2001 01:43 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wagepeace: I would suggest that those who engineered yesterday's events would agree with you completely, and feel fine in their justification.

Whatever the reason behind those talking about shooting people up and blowing them apart real good, the reality of today's technology is that those who were being shot and blown up real good heard those words.

And, in fact, lying is not endorsed in the American Constitution, to my knowledge. And certain steps are required before war is declared, which did not happen in Cambodia. And firing against soldiers who have surrendered and are following the process agreed to by the two parties is not endorsed by the American Constitution, to my knowledge.

And, speaking of the American military never being sneaky, what the heck was going on between the Indigenous peoples of the West and that same military for oh, about forty years or so?

DrConway, I know it was a fabrication by that very daughter. And how was it massaged, and who supported it getting onto mainstream media, whipping Americans into a righteous rage that played a big part in generating support for the start of the Gulf War? I'm sure she didn't line up Hill&Knowlton all on her lonesome.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: judym ]


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Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 01:45 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm going to go get a new 8mm tape and record the Hill. All flags are at half, yes DRc. Surreal. 5 of the murders are now thought to have entered our neighbour through our borders. Dear Lord.

I don't know how much longer I can participate in this for. I can't stomach yankee-bashing right now.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Trinitty ]


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rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 01:48 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
judym: That baby incubator thing turned out to be a fabrication by the girl, who turned out to be the daughter of a high-ranking Kuwaiti ambassador.

Yes, that's right, it was a fabrication. But the continuous bombing of civilians in Baghdad, and the murder of retreating Iraqi troops, after they had surrendered, was not. (That's not sanctioned by the US Constitution; but remember, wagepeace, slavery was once "sanctioned by the US constitution". Did that make it OK for you?). Nevermind the carpet-bombing of Laos and Cambodia all those years ago. That, btw, wagepeace, was illegal under international law and under US law. And hundreds of thousands died as a result. So just get clear on your history, first, please.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 01:48 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arrest taking place in Boston at a Westin-Copely hotel. -CBC News
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rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 01:50 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trinitty, it's not yankee-bashing to argue against "merciless responses". It's trying to restore a level of humanity to our reactions. We don't need to descend into tribalism at this moment.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
janew
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posted 12 September 2001 01:51 PM      Profile for janew     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WHDH - Police are involved in a 'situation' in Boston...not much detail yet.
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judym
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posted 12 September 2001 01:52 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My point IS that the incubator story was a fabrication. And the U.S. military complex used it to whip up anti-Iraqi sentiment. This played a big part in generating a "righteous anger" that led to war.

I was responding to the assertion that the U.S. military has never been sneaky.


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Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 01:53 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we should all try to be a little easier on eachother. I don't think pull-quoting someone's thoughts is really helpful right now.

I can dislike capitalism all I want, but I wouldn't live in the Middle East. I know that our system is flawed, but it sure is the most democratic and freedom-loving one could find.

I think we should try to be loyal to Canada and our neighbour, with whom we share so much, and appreciative of what we have.


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rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 01:54 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Judym,

Sorry, I was totally confused on that

PS Trinitty, we must get past tribalism or this type of thing will never end.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 01:55 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Judy M: you can e-mail me at:

wagepeace@hotmail.com

Clearly you and I are in disagreement and we should discuss this off rabble.


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wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 01:58 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we need to understand some key issues:

a) There will be unprecedented retribution
b) There is/will be unprecedented public support
c) America is going to invoke it's "righteous might"

Everyone needs to prepare themselves for this because it IS going to happen SOON.


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DrConway
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posted 12 September 2001 02:01 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah. I'm afraid I have to say this: It looks as if World War 3 started today. The feds may already be busting people, but the US population will demand the US government use its armed forces somewhere, somehow, to regain the feeling of security and having the upper hand.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 02:02 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Understood Wage. I feel like finding a car and heading for the hills. I wish I were back home in BC right now. I'm gonna add your email to my addy book.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 02:06 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I really do have faith that the US isn't going to send massive military strikes against any nation. There may be small "surgical" air-strikes against small camps within a foreign nation (which I think would be a colossal mistake), but I don't expect a full-scale war.

For now, leave it to the FBI (and maybe the CIA).


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 02:13 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trinitty: I agree with you. Add me to your address book and I will do the same. If I smoked cigarettes, I would light one up and go for a walk right now.

I think the surgical air strike option is not an option right now. The UN is getting out of Afghanistan for a reason folks ....

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: wagepeace ]


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Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 02:18 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're right I think wage. Gonna go home early today. Donate blood. Pray. Have a drink and go for a walk. I feel like buying a horse, tent and matches, and heading for home on the transcanada trail. How long do you think it would take me to get to BC on a bike from Ottawa?
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 02:21 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's correct, medidaboy. I expect the following, as I indicated in my post above:

(1) the US will destroy Bin Laden's home and Mullah Omar's home, and the perhaps the roads leading to these places from Kandahar.

(2) The US will funnel massive amounts of military and financial aid to the Northern Alliance. However, it appears that the Taliban have just assassinated Ahmed Shah Masood, the charismatic and brilliant leader of the Northern Alliance, and also the man who led Afghan resistance to the Soviets, and it's not clear who can replace him. (Latest reports say that he has not recovered consciousness, and he has shrapnel in his head.)

(3) The Taliban's military capabilities will be targeted, and their high-tech (planes etc.) capabilities wiped out. Airports in Afghanistan will be destroyed. There's basically nothing else to destroy in the country, everything else is destroyed by the (Russian and American-funded) civil war. Actually, most of the destruction of cities was done by the (initially US-backed) Taliban. During the brutal war with the Russians, the fighting was in the countryside and the cities remained intact. The Taliban destroyed them. Anyway, the point is there's nothing else to destroy in Afghanistan except the people, all 20 million of them, miserably poor.

(4) Pakistan will come under vast pressure to withdraw its support for the Taliban. I think the pressure will be so great that Pakistan will comply. However, this will destabilize Pakistani politics even further as a large segment of the population is already fundamentalist and an even larger segment is militantly anti-American. The risk is of a fundamentalist, Taliban-type state with nuclear weapons.

(5) Affiliates of Bin Laden all over the world will most likely be assassinated.

If they're smart, they'll combind action against the Taliban with massive amounts of aid and cooperation with the Russians and Iranians. However, that's a big IF. Instead, what's liable to happen as a result of even the most judicious response is festering resentment elsewhere in the Islamic world, especially Pakistan, which has nuclear bombs. This is actually really bad news for India and the subcontinent as a whole.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 02:23 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with rasmus' assessment. I was unaware of the assassination - when was this?
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 02:24 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Two days ago. It was a suicide bombing by people posing as journalists.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


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wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 02:25 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trinitty:

A horse would do nicely. I think that a road trip is out of the question right now. I too feel sick about this, but I think the outcome was decided before Bush spoke to Americans last night.

Rasmus:

I'm sorry, but isn't this just too coincidental? Assassinate the opposition one day before the attack?

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: wagepeace ]


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Trespasser
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posted 12 September 2001 02:38 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Robert Fisk, The Independent

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Trespasser ]


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verbatim
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posted 12 September 2001 02:44 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy Mary Mother of God. I just realized that the brother of one of my best friends lives and works in Manhattan. I hope he's OK.

Edited to add: I just called his parents, and he's OK. I feel awful at feeling relieved that he's alive, because so many people aren't as lucky as me. Apparently he saw the whole thing unfold out of his office window. Good God.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: :VerbaTim: ]


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 02:46 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trespasser, thanks for the link. Fisk honest and superb as usual.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 02:54 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I need to go home now.

I need to get the Post. Already have the Citizen and Globe. I pray that there will be a day in the future when I can show my children and grandchildren these papers.

God be with you all and your loved ones.

Trinitty


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 02:57 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I dunno. Fisk is a little guilty of speculation himself when he mentions the bombings at Kabul. Nobody on either side of that conflict is blaming the US for those bombings.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 03:01 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remember he was probably filing early last night. The incongruous thing is that such attacks on Kabul have not taken place in several years. I would be surprised if the Taliban's opponents had the capability. Different events are lining up in a strange way.

Two days ago, Ahmed Shah Masood was assassinated by Taliban suicide bombers.

Then, the WTC attack in the US.

Then, a highly unusual attack on Kabul, targeting what is presumed to be an ammunition dump.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 03:10 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The Taliban has said that the rocket attacks came from northern afghan helicopters.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 03:24 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's entirely likely, but it's still a very unusual event.

In other news, it occurs to me. When the fourth airplane crashed near Harrisburg yesterday, the very FIRST announcement on CNN said, "the US Air Force has announced that the fourth hijacked aircraft is no longer a threat." I thought it was highly interesting that the US Air Force was making this announcement. Then the commentators on CNN said that Air Force officials had been talking about "having to make a difficult decision" if any other jets were threatening a populated area. But then *blip* we never heard anything about that again. Did any of you?

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 September 2001 03:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Colin Powell's statement - Newsworld:

It's a tragedy, hearts go out to families.

Spirit will not be broken. We will find out who's responsible and they will pay for it.

Have been in touch with foreign leaders to coordinate a diplomatic approach to this. Thanked Kofi Annan for resolution today. NATO is hard at work on resolution re: article 5 - an attack on any member of the alliance is an attack on the alliance itself. In touch with president of EU, thanks for strong support from them, and their cooperation. Attended national security council meeting to review and plan future efforts to bring perpetrators to justice but punishment they deserve, and build a worldwide coalition against terrorism. This will be the major priority of the State department. Talked to Prime Minister Manley of Canada!!!!! (or did he say foreign minister?) (he listed a bunch of other countries he's spoken with - the usual western allies and Russia, as well as Arafat and Sharon).

Put rumours in perspective, get back to work, and we'll get air traffic started again as soon as possible.

Building a strong coalition to go after these perpetrators as well as terrorism in general. This is an attack on both the United States and Civilization.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 03:31 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
He did indeed say Prime Minister Manley, but he later corrected himself.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 12 September 2001 03:31 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the incredibly poor taste department, in this article about how Morgan Stanley Dean Witter's offices were vapourized, the Chairman of MSDW says to his clients:

quote:
In a message on the firm's Web site, Morgan Stanley chairman Philip Purcell said Tuesday that “in spite of this tragedy, all of our businesses are functioning and will continue to function. We are committed to resume full operations as exchanges and markets reopen.”


Couldn't there have been the slightest gesture, like, we will observe a day of mourning or whatever?

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 03:33 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
rasmus: Opinions are mixed about this subject. Some think a day of mourning is in order, and others think companies should stay operational as a symbol of America's resolve against terrorism. Some think that a day of mourning would be interpreted by the "bad guys" as a sign of weakness.

*shrug*


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eddie Lear
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posted 12 September 2001 03:34 PM      Profile for Eddie Lear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo said "What are you trying to say Eddie Lear that the U.S. deserved this?"
Yes,right on the money Markbo. Innocent people don't deserve what happened but they were collateral damage,Americans as a whole are thieves and murderers whether they realize it or not,it's not surprising that someone will kick em in the balls and they will srtike back.
Let me ask you a question, What exactly do you think will happen next? I don't like where this is going. What do you think would be the outcome if America as a whole said O.K. we get the point we won't hit back if promise no more terrorist attacks,you have displayed your ability to hurt us,end the violence,all of it.

Call me naive all you want but violence is perpetual and it takes noble hearts to break it, striking back will only cause more terrorist attacks on the U.S unless you kill them all.
P.S I am so glad i don't live in a city

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Eddie Lear ]


From: Port Colborne, Ont | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 03:35 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
ABC news: The plane that crashed into the Pentagon was originally supposed to crash into the White House. Air Force One was also an intended target.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 September 2001 03:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Colin Powell's answers to press:

What steps are you taking Pakistan to take, and what have you insinuated will be the steps you'll take against them and Afgh. if it was Bin Laden?

We met with Pakistani officials. We don't know who is responsible yet. We are gathering information. We expect their help and full support as we conduct the investigation.

What does a strong coalition against the perpetrators mean? That all countries should participate in retaliation?

They should assist, not necessarily in the actual attack, but with...rats, missed the rest. Something about support, supplies, etx.

Should this coalition include Muslim nations?

Yes, this affects all nations including them. I have calls in to Jordan and...sorry didn't catch it.

Re: holding countries responsible - is it correct to interpret it that the countries will be attacked?

I mentioned in my earlier statements that we aren't just going after perpetrators but their sources of support, whether from orgs or host countries. We have to combat terrorism, and that includes host countries. Life has to go on despite the attack. We cannot be afraid to live. We cannot be a people who walk around terrified. We're Americans. We're not a people who are terrified. We need to be secure without locking ourselves down.

Are you going to reassess the ban on assassinating leaders of terrorist organizations (somethign like that)

We have not addressed that yet.

(missed a question, sorry)

We don't have diplomatic relations with Afghanistan. What are we going to do to go after them? Food aid? Sanctions?

We don't know who is responsible yet. Once we determine it, we will go after that group, and then we will see what kind of actions will be necessary.

Hav eyou had conversatiosn with Arab leaders about material support?

I will talk to them, but I don't know what kind of material support I need yet. I talked to Perez and Arafat, and I encouraged all sides to get this process of meetings going. They need to meet and get things going at this time of tension in the world and the region. Even though we are dealing witht he crisis here in New York, we are also dealing with the Peace Process.

Do you think this is linked to the Middle East Peace Process? Will this be a problem for moderate Arab governments?

Their governments have condemned it, and they realize how horrible this act was. The region will come to be sober about it. No matter how you feel about the Middle East, this is not the way to solve it. Anyone who has a civilized drop of blood must know that. No religion condones the action we have seen. I think they will realize this in the Persian Gulf and Middle East.

What did you make of the Supreme leader of the Taliban yesterday? Do you think they are harbouring Osama Bin Laden? Do you think if he is, that Afghanistan will extradite him to the US?

I'm sure that the Taliban are providing protection to OBL but I don't know whether he is responsible. I don't want to get into 50%, 60%, 80% sure that any organization is responsible - that could lead to wrong answers.

What conversations do you anticipate having with Persian Gulf Countries? What kind of military latitude do you expect?

We will expect them to help us find out who is responsible if they can. We expect their support. Theyw ere outraged, shocked, and stunned at these events. Some might rejoice and shout, but most think it's horrible and must be condemned. The conflict between Is. & Pal has been going on for some time, but this has been regardless of how the Peace Process has been going.

I have had conversations with Saudis already and I will be having more.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 September 2001 03:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ooh, just read my message. I guess I won't be hired by Closed Circuit any time soon. Eek.

Newsworld - white house was the target of the plane that went down in PA.

Mediaboy - that's a great excuse for making sure their bottom line isn't affected by the tragedy. It's not a show of weakness to grieve losses. It's a show of inhumanity not to.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 04:12 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Somehow, I don't think Morgan Stanley Dean Witter will be walking out of this without an effect to their bottom line. There are plenty of people out there who would find it more therapeutic to go into work and stay active than to stay at home and stew. I think MSDW staying open is far more symbolic than anything else. Since the stock markets are closed, very little "real" business will be done today. Mostly, they'll just be answering phones, I'd wager. I don't believe that their primary focus today is to cut their losses.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 12 September 2001 04:25 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How gross, my roomate just got this:

quote:

During this incredible time of need we need to support the American dream and not lose our spirit of Freedom and the American way. Our condolences go out to the victims and families.

..a public service message from Stealth/PopLaunch

During this attack on American Freedom
"anti-spammers" express their condolences to Bin Laden! Anti-spammers are terrorists at heart and attack websites and email accounts of companies wishing to bring their products and services to the general public via email, an enviromentally sound, REMARKABLE medium! They launch Denial of Service attacks against websites (including ours) on a daily basis because they are ANTI-AMERICAN. All in the name of some ANTI-AMERICAN "moral" cause they
beleive everyone should have as well. Sound familiar? All groups that DEMAND that everyone do or not do what they believe is the correct "moral" action almost ALWAYS rely on terrorist violence. Here is a post from an Anti-spammer that expresses his condolences to Bin Laden, a terrorist group known for killing 1,000's of innocent people.


It was from comments@embryoaucitons.com , which isn't even a functioning address.

aurg.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 12 September 2001 04:31 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Gawd. Why not start selling t-shirts with pictures of the WTC in mid-collapse?! Fuckin dicks...
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 12 September 2001 05:16 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has anyone heard from skdadl?
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 05:18 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the White House was targetted, that sets yet another precedent. I wonder how that plane ended up on the Pentagon?

I heard on CBC radio that the NTSB expect to find the flight recorder and cockpit recorder from the downed Pennsylvania flight:

I wonder where it was intended to go ...


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 12 September 2001 05:31 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Commentators have been stating all possible angles on the Pennsylvania crash and Pentagon plane. The Pennsylvania one was either aiming at Camp David or the White House is the most stated comment. The Pentagon plane was probably aimed for the Pentagon. There is still suspicion that more planes were to be a part of this. I wonder if that's true. Most of this I heard on the local channel but some from others. I've been switching so much I don't know which channel I'm on most of the time.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 12 September 2001 05:32 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yikes.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 12 September 2001 06:06 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check out Tom Tomorrow's This Modern World.

For once it's not a cartoon.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 September 2001 07:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl has posted in other threads since you asked, 'lance.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 12 September 2001 08:18 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just finished recording the Hill. All flags at half mast. So strange. I'm going to go light a candle at the US Emb. Then head home. Lets hope that we have a quiet evening.

Eddie: What country were you born end, and, if you dislike Americans that much, what are you doing living in it's nieghbour?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 12 September 2001 09:28 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Eddie: What country were you born end, and, if you dislike Americans that much, what are you doing living in it's nieghbour?

What sort of question is that?


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 September 2001 09:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh oh, that's starting to sound like the "if you don't like it get the hell out of the country" argument...

The great thing about living in countries like Canada and the US is that you can criticize those countries and express your opinions when they do things you don't agree with. Introspection does not equal treason.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
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posted 12 September 2001 09:49 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trinitty, what sort of question IS that?
From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 September 2001 09:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Everyone's a little tense. It's hard to hear criticism the day after a catastrophe, I guess.

Okay, edited to add something I'm seeing on the news now. Newsworld. They're showing people at the airports, and for the most part people have been really good about cancelled and delayed flights. But they showed one man and woman who were petulantly whining because they couldn't get any information from anyone. She said that there were five of them who went to different agents and each one of them got different answers about when flights will be leaving.

Well DUH. Things are in a state of chaos, and probably each person was giving an educated guess. I mean, come on, you can't blame the ticket agents for THIS.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 13 September 2001 12:10 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have two people billeting with us right now. It's funny, because one guy really wanted to get to a computer to be online, and we thought he'd be an annoying business man, but he's a mucky muck at a Union. Yay lefties! The other gentleman is writing a book. We got good people
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 September 2001 01:08 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NEWS from CTV - a report out of Afghanistan says that Osama bin Laden is under house arrest in Afghanistan! Wow. And some inside source from the US has said something about being 95% sure that it was bin Laden...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
troubled
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1366

posted 13 September 2001 02:24 AM      Profile for troubled        Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure you have all read this by now but if not it's worth your time. For those of you who live in Toronto, is Gordon Sinclair really a television commentator? Or is he just another part of this "American propoganda machine" so many of you are so easily lead to believe?

This, from a Canadian newspaper, it's worth sharing.
> > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> > Commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional> > Record:
> > America: The Good Neighbor.> >
> > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> > Americans as the most generous and possibly the
> > least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany,
> > Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy
> > were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> > forgave other billions in debts.> >
> > None of these countries is today paying even the
> > interest on its remaining debts to the United
> > States. When France was in danger of collapsing in
> > 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and
> > their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.> >
> > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
> > 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> > Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman
> > Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged
> > countries. Now newspapers in those countries are
> > writing about the decadent, war mongering Americans.> >
> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
> > gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> > country in the world have a plane to equal the
> > Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the> > Douglas DC10?> >
> > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
> > International lines except Russia fly American
> > Planes? Why does no other land on earth even
> > consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You
> > talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
> > You talk about German technocracy, and you get
> > automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
> > and you find men on the moon - not once, but several
> > times - and safely home again.> >
> > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put
> > theirs right in the store window for everybody to
> > look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
> > and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most
> > of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
> > getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to> > spend here.> >
> > When the railways of France, Germany and India were
> > breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
> > rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
> > New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> > old caboose. Both are still broke.> >
> > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
> > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
> > me even one time when someone else raced to the
> > Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
> > outside help even during the San Francisco> > earthquake.> >
> > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > kicked around. They will come out of this thing
> > with their flag high. And when they do, they are
> > entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are
> > gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada> > is not one of those."
> >> > Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!> >
> > This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
> > read regarding the United States. It is nice that
> > one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of
> > the world would realize it. We are always blamed for
> > everything, and never even get a thank you for the> > things we do.> >

PS Why don't you go ask the current Japanese government if what happened in their country during WWII was a deterrant for future strikes of cowardice on their part!


From: MN USA | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
orangecrush
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posted 13 September 2001 02:45 AM      Profile for orangecrush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Markbo said "What are you trying to say Eddie Lear that the U.S. deserved this?"
Yes,right on the money Markbo. Innocent people don't deserve what happened but they were collateral damage,Americans as a whole are thieves and murderers whether they realize it or not,it's not surprising that someone will kick em in the balls and they will srtike back.

Eddie Lear,

while I sympathise with your comments, I get nervous when anyone says someone deserves anything like this. Or even referring to these people as “collateral damage”. That is so very dehumanising.

no one deserves this. No matter how complicitous they are.

are american’s as a whole thieves and murders? I think I understand what you’re trying to say. But, individually american’s are not thieving murders. Are they complicit in such things? Yes they are. But it’s not as if the american government and american capitalist do not visit horrors upon its own citizens, its workers. Well of course disproportionately based on race, class and other social signifiers. And usually not to the degree with which they torment those in the south..

and american citizens aren’t any more complicit in the horrors of global capitalism then say Canadian, or British citizens. They are only complicit in that they have allowed themselves to be distracted, confused and left fighting amongst themselves.. All while unspeakable crimes against humanity have been committed in their name.

please don’t forget who payed for the crimes of the american bourgeois state yesterday. It was in large part workers. Not those with power.. And when america strikes back who will pay the price? The powerful, the elite.. It’s almost certain that won’t be the case..

and if there is a war, who will die for the state?

but also don’t allow people to abstract this out of context. 30 million people a year die of poverty in this world... The american state is and has been responsible for countless acts of state sponsored terrorism around the world..

The history of western colonisation has created a world geography in which factions based on ethnicity race religion constantly fight each other.. (Look at the history of rawanda, sudan and the middle east). British colonisation and decolonisation is directly responsible for generations of war..

we live in a global system of economic apartheid. Administered and propagated by the global elite..

people keep asking why? I think it should be painfully obvious why this happened..

you can’t loose sight of the fact that this event occurred within a world system of exploitation, in justice and oppression.

terrorism can only be understood in the context of such extreme injustice, dehumanisation, exploitation and alienation that these people felt their voices could only be heard by murdering thousands of americans and striking at the very symbols of american hegemony.

terror is the product of injustice.. is a product of capitalism. If it is crime in north american cities or international terrorism. these will not leave use until we have struggled to transform society..

the only solution to terrorism is social, political and economic justice and democracy..

I know many are opposed to or uncomfortable with this.. but I’m hoping that those with leftist tendencies will start to think about this in terms of a class analysis..

So when we ask our selves why this happened, and what we can do about we don’t fall into the trap of fear, recrimination and intolerance much of the western world already seems to have fallen.

let’s not allow the flames of nationalism and racism to be fanned.. We have to stand against this...

ask yourself if it is beneficial to say americans on the whole are thieves and murders.. Isn't it the same irrational hatred that the right has tried to stir up against arabs and muslims. (And from what I’ve seen today seems to be succeeding at).

There certainly is a banality to evil.. American citizens as with Canadian citizens must face our complicity in these global atrocities.. But this must be done constructively.. Not with the use of guilt and recrimination..

Think systemically.. Violence, hatred, greed, bigotry are not congenital to the human species.. These are creations of a social order.. And as long as that social order persists.. violence and hatred will persist..

I hope the workers and the subaltern of north america do not allow a war waged in their name.. We have to reject the interests of the bourgeois state and it’s corporations..

We can’t abide a global system that creates terror whether it comes in the form of a plane flying into the WTC or slowly starving to death in south asia or living on the streets of Toronto. All these are the reflection of a social, economic and politic order that can no longer be defended, apologized for or explained away.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 September 2001 02:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From MSNBC - Racism backlash
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 114

posted 13 September 2001 06:09 AM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Orangecrush wrote:

quote:
please don’t forget who payed for the crimes of the american bourgeois state yesterday. It was in large part workers. Not those with power.. And when america strikes back who will pay the price? The powerful, the elite.. It’s almost certain that won’t be the case..


I'm sorry, you must be talking about another aircraft crahsing into a union headquarters in the US because the last time I looked, the World Trade Center was HQ for some pretty significant multi-national corporations and some of the wealthiest people in America work there.

The ironic and tragic fact is that the rich and the poor, the white collar management and the oppressed blue collar workers are dead and dying beneath 110 stories of rubble.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
TitusFicus
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 476

posted 13 September 2001 06:52 AM      Profile for TitusFicus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by troubled:
quote:
I'm sure you have all read this by now but if not it's worth your time. For those of you who live in Toronto, is Gordon Sinclair really a television commentator? Or is he just another part of this "American propoganda machine" so many of you are so easily lead to believe?

Mr. Sinclair was a journalist and radio commentator. He died in 1984. The commentary you posted was recorded by him in 1973 as the US was leaving Viet Nam. His view of the US was shaped by the actions it took during and after WWII. You'll note there was no Marshall Plan for Iraq following the Gulf War. You'll have to understand that most people in the Middle East have seen only the back of the American hand, not it's palms. The New World Order doesn't seem to include improving the lot of many of the poor regions of this planet. There is no comparison to the old vision of the US.


From: Barrie, Ont | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 13 September 2001 08:43 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guys, don't fight. Not today.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 114

posted 13 September 2001 08:50 AM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This week's attack has affected everyone Audra and I believe that we are learning about each other's core beliefs now more than ever.

I agree that we shouldn't fight with each other - we can agree to disagree and focus on what we can do as a positive. That's why I started a thread on this: How did you help?


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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Babbler # 826

posted 13 September 2001 10:36 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I left early yesterday... that is why I did not respond to "what kind of question is that?"

I asked Eddie that because I was troubled by his comments saying that the United States deserved a "kick in the balls". I found that to be totally callous. AND, if he hates the United States THAT much, I wondered why he would live in Canada, a country that shares many more similarities than differences with Americans. I don't know how someone living within Canadian society can watch those images and hear the stories of thousands of innocent people and smugly say they got what they deserved. That sickens me. You can disapprove of Capitalism and some of the actions taken by the States in other countries and disputes, SUPPORTED by NATO -of which our Country is a member-, but at a moment of massive human tragedy such as this, I find his comments repugnant.

That's why I asked him why he was living here. If I hated the system and Americans THAT much, I would not live here. Why would you? You would be surrounded by them and their influences, and thriving off of the system you hate, and you would just be angry all of the time. Unless you like being in a constant state of stress, hatred and frustration, it just would not make sense to live here.

Seems like a pretty fair question to me.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 September 2001 10:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Titus Ficus, thanks for that succinct and precise bit of history. I remember Sinclair's recording of that tribute: as you point out, in the context of Gordon Sinclair's real life and background, it seems in every way but one anachronistic to dig it up now and read it into the Congressional Record. Sentimentality is, unfortunately, always useful to the cynical and opportunistic.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Solintra
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1337

posted 13 September 2001 01:16 PM      Profile for Solintra     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Americans as a whole are thieves and murderers whether they realize it or not" -- Eddie Lear quoted in an earlier message

"...then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!" Michael Moore, from "What Happened"

I expected a few fluffy-bunnies and granolas to post the usual "give Osama a hug", but to stoop to the level of blaming the victims lying under the rubble...some of you are too much!!!

To Michael and his fans...is there really a distinction to be drawn between victims who voted for your guy, Nader, and those who cast their vote in the last election elsewhere? If a victim was well-paid while working at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, does this somehow make his/her death less of a loss? The tone of the article I lifted the phrase from seems to suggest so. This is repulsive, and should be an embarrassment to those managing this allegedly "progressive" website.

As far as the vile comments of Eddie Lear...evidently we are all witnesses to the mental ramblings of a McVey wannabe. Shame on the site managers for not removing it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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Babbler # 554

posted 13 September 2001 01:19 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Censorship is never a good idea. Even in times like these, I'll defend anybody's right to express their opinion, no matter how much I disagree with it.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 114

posted 13 September 2001 01:25 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even if someone posted:

"Kill all the ............"


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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Babbler # 554

posted 13 September 2001 01:30 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yes. Even then.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 114

posted 13 September 2001 01:35 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, very disturbing.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 29

posted 13 September 2001 01:37 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We are doing our best. Please, folks.

Trinitty, I encourage you to challenge ideas you find repugnant. But asking where someone is from and why they live in Canada if they have a point of view that doesn't match your own is not acceptable on this board. Nationalism and pro-Americanism aren't requirements for living here.

Eddie Lear, there are Americans on this board. There are fellow human beings on this board. Some have lost people they know.

A terrible thing has happened this week. Trying to understand and explain does not mean folks are necessarily justifying what happened.

babble does have a policy, and you've all agreed to abide by it. Anti-censorship or no, we'll apply that policy if we must.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: judym ]


From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 13 September 2001 01:39 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I don't think my opinions on freedom of speech should be disturbing.

If you prohibit expressions of evil it does not eliminate the underlying evil. It just drives that evil underground, where it will fester and grow. Those who you censor will make you a target of their hatred.

If people aren't allowed to express rediculous opinions, how will we be able to respond to and refute those opinions?

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky

Also from Chomsky: http://www.infotrad.clara.co.uk/antiwar/noamnchomskyfreespeech.htm

Personally, I draw the line at personal attacks on other posters and libel, but that's about it. Even then, I wouldn't remove the posts from the board. I see that as very Orwellian.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 13 September 2001 01:51 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Judy,

How is it that you state MY questions were inappropriate for this board, and did not do the same for the post I was responding to?

Go back and re-read what he posted.

I think it is a fair question to ask why he chooses to live in a country so closely related by blood, trade and proximity to one that he loathes. How is that not a legitimate question? I asked him where he was from to try to perhaps understand where this hatred of the United States is coming from. For example, if he were from a country recently bombed by NATO, I would be better able to comprehend why he would feel that way.

I realise that nerves are raw, but, I don't feel my queries were inappropriate, especially after I clarified them.

I'll wait for him to respond.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
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Babbler # 29

posted 13 September 2001 02:04 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trinitty, I did say that Eddie Lear's post was inappropriate. And I'm telling you that your question is inappropriate on this board.

Everyone: let's not attack each other. Let's remember that, wherever people live, they are human.


From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 114

posted 13 September 2001 02:54 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zoiks!
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 13 September 2001 03:07 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay.

Take care of yourselves everyone.

I hope human compassion can be found once again somewhere.

Goodbye.

Trinitty


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 September 2001 04:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For example, if he were from a country recently bombed by NATO, I would be better able to comprehend why he would feel that way.

Not that you're reading this since I'm writing it after your farewell, but...

You don't have to be from another country to consider civilians "collateral damage" and to consider atrocities "deserved". How many people in the United States have felt that ordinary citizens starving in Iraq because of sanctions "deserve" it because of the policies of Saddam Hussein? How many Americans, when told that in desert storm millions of innocent civilians were killed, considered them to be "collateral damage"? Obviously most of them because most Americans supported Desert Storm.

When I talked to a member of my family who thought we should bomb the hell out of Afghanistan (because bombing their civilians is somehow different from bombing our civilians), I asked him, "Why would you want to punish the ordinary citizens of Afghanistan for the actions of a few terrorists, or even for the actions of a few people in power if the Taleban is supporting the terrorists?"

He told me that was too damn bad - civilians are "collateral damage" in war, and that their government represents the population at large.

I told him that the problem is, the government DOESN'T represent the population at large. He said, "Well, they should revolt then. If they haven't revolted, then they are responsible, and they deserve it."

I've heard this attitude several times over the last few days. And every person I knew who said it were born-Canadians, pure-white as the wind-driven snow.

Or was your point that as neighbours to the US, we should only find atrocities horrific when committed against North Americans?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 29

posted 13 September 2001 05:02 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Before anyone jumps to conclusions, Trinitty has NOT been banned or suspended from this board.
From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eddie Lear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 362

posted 13 September 2001 07:17 PM      Profile for Eddie Lear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Trinnity what the hell kind of question is that? I was born on Earth although at times I am not proud of it!!!.Your mind thinks in terms of nations no? Well mine doesn't and I am proud to come to that realization. When i said collateral I meant that where do you draw the line,one death is one too many by the moral logic I am detecting but there is no outcry for a single life so to make your point you have to kill many,sick isn't it? America has been and it's allies deserve this in a way,seriously.It probably the greatest thing that ever happened to a nation as a whole.
America and it's allies let 800 000 people get butchered with machetes in Rwanda because they didn't want to use the word Genocide because by international law America must intervien,America has overdue bills and it's too bad for civilians but hey that's life.

I do not hate anyone but I do Hate international antagonism and nuclear weapons.Honestly folks some nights I can't sleep knowing the world in ready to blow at the push of a button. I also Hate Lies,they reek of decay,I have heard many people call this an attack on freedom and a battle of the forces of good and evil,BTW the side of good has ICBM's,these lies make me sob in hopless depression. IMHO America should do nothing except charge those who they can catch because if there is one thing we the human race have learned in Two million years of existance it's violence begets violence

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Eddie Lear ]


From: Port Colborne, Ont | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eddie Lear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 362

posted 13 September 2001 07:42 PM      Profile for Eddie Lear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Solintra I can't say that I like being called a McVey wannabe,I'm much more handsome than him plus he was sloppy.
"Shame on the managers for not removing it"
Nowhere in my post blame the actual victims,how the hell were you able to extrapolate that,I will be more careful in the future. Please, I am not a bad person . Also why would you want to have me censored that's way too 1984.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Eddie Lear ]


From: Port Colborne, Ont | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
troubled
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1366

posted 14 September 2001 01:16 AM      Profile for troubled        Edit/Delete Post
"Violence begets violence"?

When was the last time Japan or Germany waged an act of war?


From: MN USA | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
troubled
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posted 14 September 2001 01:27 AM      Profile for troubled        Edit/Delete Post
Also Eddie, do yourself a favor. If by chance you visit the States, you may want to
reserve such rhetorical terrorism. You will find it will be met by the overwhelming majority to be a personal attack. Also about my previous post about the Gordon Sinclair story. If he died in the 80's and wrote the piece for the war in Vietnam, (which he may very well have) why does he mention the San Francisco Earthquake and last years Tornadoes? Just wondering

From: MN USA | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 September 2001 01:27 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1939 and 1941, respectively.

And to be certain, Germany waged war after the punishing conditions of the Versailles pact which left many Germans angry and resentful.

Japan waged war afetr U.S. gun boat diplomacy entered their ports and forced them to accept U.S. "trade."

It seems, in these cases, the lessons of history were learned when the victors of the wars helped to rebuild both the infrastructure and economies of the war's losers. Probably in large part because if they didn't, Soviet influence might have prevailed.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 14 September 2001 01:32 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
troubled: There are always a fair number of tornadoes that tend to crop up in the US Midwest (Oklahoma, Nebraska, etc)...

As for the earthquake, it is my understanding that he wrote that piece in 1973. Were there earthquakes in SanFran in the 1960s?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
troubled
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posted 14 September 2001 01:43 AM      Profile for troubled        Edit/Delete Post
"And to be certain, Germany waged war after the punishing conditions of the Versailles pact which left many Germans angry and resentful"

Had nothing to do with a charismatic, powermad, infidel taking advantage of a week and uneducated public did it?


From: MN USA | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 September 2001 01:47 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure did. But that power mad lunatic would have had far less influence if the German people were productively employed and busy with their lives as opposed to idle and vunerable to a charasmatic madman promising to restore "Glory."
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
troubled
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posted 14 September 2001 02:03 AM      Profile for troubled        Edit/Delete Post
I think I finally have found a voice for my feelings. It comes from one Leonard Pitts of the Miami Herald.


It's my job to have something to say.
They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.

What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.


IN PAIN

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.

I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.


THE STEEL IN US

You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold.

As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.


From: MN USA | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 14 September 2001 09:06 AM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

Uh… I have a sneaking suspicion that this could have also appeared in some Arab column.
Read the second last sentence… doesn’t that describe the events of Tuesday?
So the U.S. unleashes what we do not know… what happens twenty years later? I finally read a historical perspective in the Globe yesterday, and this “war” has been brewing since 1949, apparently.
How do you stop it with retaliation? Build some cavernous buildings, strip every Muslim naked, heard them in, …?

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 14 September 2001 09:31 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How do you stop it with retaliation?

By cutting off funding and protection to those who state they want to do this. All retalliation does not have to be just bombing.

We also can help to topple dictatorial, oppressive governments like the Taliban. I can see nothing negative about causing this oppressive gov't to be replaced by an elected one. What these people have taken away from women alone justifies their elimination in todays world.

We can pressure the world to unify to explain to Saddam Hussein that sending $10,000 to the families of Terrorists will not be accepted and if he does this we will ensure continue to isolate Iraq.

There is so much we can do.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 September 2001 09:43 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By cutting off funding and protection to those who state they want to do this. All retalliation does not have to be just bombing.

We also can help to topple dictatorial, oppressive governments like the Taliban. I can see nothing negative about causing this oppressive gov't to be replaced by an elected one. What these people have taken away from women alone justifies their elimination in todays world.

We can pressure the world to unify to explain to Saddam Hussein that sending $10,000 to the families of Terrorists will not be accepted and if he does this we will ensure continue to isolate Iraq.

There is so much we can do.


My, God, Markob. A lucid and well thought out response that does not require any eradication. I think for once we can fully agree.

Why do you hide this rational side?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
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posted 14 September 2001 09:51 AM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is getting long, and we're no longer living through, "The Day After." I'm closing up.
From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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