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Author Topic: Ramifications of Massive Attack
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 12:42 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Feel free to speculate.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 12:47 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It has to be for religous zealots, as they're the ones willing to sacrifice themselves in attacks thinking there's something better on the other side
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Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 12:47 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After Fight Club, you have to wonder whether it's a group of groups...I've been told to 'cut the crap' on another thread, but I've seen models of Fight Clubs run in bar basements, or at least the bruises on the faces of the regulars. If people are stupid enough to imitate a movie in this aspect, why wouldn't they imitate it in a militant 'anti-capitalist' way? Speculation, I know, but...
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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 12:48 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This will lead to any number or responses.

My sense is that Americans will want some swift retribution - but against who?

Also, there are intangibles: UN Security Council, Reaction from China and Russia, potential for causing WW III, who the hell knows.

All it took for WW I was an assassination and existing alliances were thrown into a cataclysm. I think that the perpetrators want a war.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 12:49 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hate to be accusatory, but it does look like a radical muslim group. If Afghanistan survives the next 24 hours without being bombed, I'd be very suprised.
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Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 12:50 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We remained silent in Chechnya when there were acts of terrorism on Russian soil. I'm sure they'll do the same.
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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 12:53 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have to look at the symbolism of today, we have a symbol of capitalism destroyed, an attack on the HQ of the US military, an evacuated White House, air traffic grounded.

Perhaps today was meant to destabilize, to tell America that it is no longer secure - trust no-one.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 12:55 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also, this will unify America - make no mistake. This is a new Pearl Harbour.
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J. Hurtado
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posted 11 September 2001 01:02 PM      Profile for J. Hurtado   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I now truly fear the Carnival of Racism that will unleash against Middle Easterners who, as I write this, are being scape-goated for the attack......if you ask me I would not be surprised if it was perpetrated by the CIA to justify the need for the New Missile Defense Program.......either way, what a tragedy!

JH


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 01:02 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OY.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
J. Hurtado
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posted 11 September 2001 01:05 PM      Profile for J. Hurtado   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also, I wonder what the reprecussions will be for people going to Washington DC at the end of the month to protest the IMF/World Bank meetings.
...I wonder if Canadian activists will be turned away at the border???

JH


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Bruce McFarlane
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posted 11 September 2001 01:06 PM      Profile for Bruce McFarlane   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So far they have gone through the usual list of suspects but no one has mentioned the obvious yet.

It is most likely an internal attack.

The media has also mentioned an intelligence deficiency. They should be looking at who they elected to be their leader.

bmc


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jenn 78
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posted 11 September 2001 01:07 PM      Profile for jenn 78     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm truly agast. if anything, this demonstrates just how useless a missile defense system is, as well as being wrong. If a group can do this much damage using no missiles at all, its so clearly underlined that the emphasis must be placed elsewhere.
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Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 01:08 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This makes pearl harber look like nothing. 50,000 people were working. They said 100,000 people visit the WTC each day, how many were in the bldg at the time?

There is a large shopping concourse underneath the WTC. How many people were in that?

I was listening to a Yahoo voice chatroom. You should hear people crying, screaming. The americans will demand blood.


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:11 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My sense is that an act of terrorism on such a scale would suggest that the perpetrators will want to become public - they will want the world to know who did this.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:12 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, look - National Missile Defense is a pipe dream and I give it 24 hours before critics come out of the woodwork.

My feeling is that the US is going to become ULTRA-ISOLATIONIST!!


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 01:13 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The West Bank is cheering. Sick sick sickos.
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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:15 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am losing my religion.
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'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 01:18 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we can expect, among other things, a high degree of internal repression in the US.

I don't see, though, how this could have been an internal attack by militias or whoever. They could just have managed the sort of World Trade Centre bombing that took place in 1993 -- ANFO, 6 people dead -- although that was indeed due to Palestinian terrorists.

Many planes hijacked and crashed -- no, that's orders of magnitude beyond what the cranks of the Militia of Michigan et al are capable of.

On CBC Radio, Lawrence Eagleburger, Bush Sr.'s former secretary of state, is using the Pearl Harbour metaphor, and saying the US has to "go to war against world terrorism."


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:22 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is ALWAYS a money trail - they have to follow the money trail to find the conspirators.
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Charlene
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posted 11 September 2001 01:24 PM      Profile for Charlene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This whole day has felt a bit like the opening of the gulf war, only much, much nearer. I agree that the symbolism of targeting especially the stock market and pentagon smacks of an external group. Especially a fundamentalist religious group like Bin Laden's who think the US is the "great white Satan" to quote CNN. However, this feels like it has been planned for years and years. Someone mentioned the two Palestinian prisoners the US was holding... it may have been in part retaliation for that?
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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:27 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This would have been planned over a long period of time, I strongly agree with you. I think that there is a multi-faction aspect to this and I still won't rule out domestic terrorism.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 01:29 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
My one speculation for the day: Considering that Bin Laden has been promising "something" over the past few weeks, I think it's pretty spurious to suggest that it's an internal attack.

It's SO selfish for groups like Bin Laden's to take this kind of action on behalf of their "people". Since it's highly unlikely that an actual government orchestrated the attack, just WHO will the US retaliate against?! Even if the US does stomp on a private terrorist group, how can we be sure they aren't just stomping on a scapegoat?!


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:31 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope, the US initiates a counter-terrorism strategy - look for an increase in middle-eastern espionage.

They have to get inside.


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'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 01:35 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's no precedent for this kind of attack. But terrorists are often motivated partly by a desire to increase the repression of "their" people, on the theory that this will motivate them to greater resistance.

I'm thinking of the assassination of Indira Gandhi, after which many Sikhs were killed in riots. This indeed led to an increase in miltancy.

I envy my cats today.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:36 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really think that someone is gambling on a global escalation of this ....
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Eddie Lear
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posted 11 September 2001 01:38 PM      Profile for Eddie Lear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think America should forgive those responsible but that is unlikly,Maybe it was Americas turn to suffer greatly.
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rasmus
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posted 11 September 2001 01:38 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, from Orrin Hatch, who's on the Senate Justice and Intellignece committees, and who has just had "high-level" briefings with the FBI and Intelligence, the initial presumption is that Bin Laden is behind it and that no state power is behind it.

He says this means America is going to have to revitalize Ahmed Shah Masood's forces in the Northern Alliance, who are fighting the Taliban. (I think Ahmed Shah is a fantastic character out of another age btw). Nevermind that the US initially backed the Taliban through its client state in Pakistan in the hopes that it would control oil routes from Central Asia. Nevermind that. In any case, if they do get rid of the Taliban that'll be good but meanwhile millions of innocent Afghans will suffer.

I think that's the most likely geopolitical aftermath.

Stock markets around the world will tank and the economy will take a hit.

Internal repression? You know, they try to monitor people like Osama Bin Laden as carefully as possible. But they couldn't manage to see this coming, in spite of the massive amounts of planning it would take. Those who aren't a threat are easy to control, those who are a threat are very difficult to control, as this attack makes clear. Forward looking politics would try to get us beyond the policies that give birth to such animus. The western powers preach to Israel and the Palestinians about the "cycle of violence" but the phrase works elswhere too. Someone has to be magnanimous and far-sighted or this type of thing can only get worse.

It's all so sickening, I think I will go back to being a Buddhist monk.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:41 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here I go again people,

"Righteous Might".

I think the US is going to demand something far greater than what is being suggested in this thread.

December 7, 1941- FDR invokes America's "Righteous Might"

September 11, 2001 - ???


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 01:43 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gambling on escalation seems like a safe bet.

Given the level of sophisticated planning this took, I think we can expect an unequivocal statement from those responsible, with supporting evidence, within 24 hours.

quote:
Nevermind that the US initially backed the Taliban through its client state in Pakistan in the hopes that it would control oil routes from Central Asia.

For that matter, Israel originally supported Hamas, in the hope of draining away prestige from Arafat's PLO, as it then was.

Means are only ends in the making. I don't know when these would-be Machiavels will learn that supporting, trying to "control" these people, is like gripping a rattlesnake by the tail.

This is absolutely not to justify terrorism in general or today's events in particular, of course.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 01:55 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think America should forgive those responsible but that is unlikly,Maybe it was Americas turn to suffer greatly

Why, did the those responsible ask for forgiveness?

I don't think its anybody's "turn". You should be ashamed of yourself.

Those responsible should pay

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: Markbo ]


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 01:58 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Before we cause revenge to happen, the world needs to confirm who did this.

I still say that the scale of this will warrant a public response from the attackers.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 02:03 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think its more than revenge. The U.S. will not only exact revenge but they will move to eliminate any other enemies.

If Bin Laden is innocent of this specific attack. You think the U.S. will want him around still? No way. He will be eliminated and the U.S. will probably attack any country protecting him. Hear that Afghanistan? Hear that Pakistan?

This is because he now represents a greater threat. Even if he is not responsible for this one.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 02:03 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Rumour: Because of recent threats against the US, airlines had been advised not to allow Salman Rushdie on any flights over the past few weeks.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 02:04 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are they still after him. Cripes, wasn't Satanic Verses, like, 15 years ago or something??
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'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 02:10 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Satanic Verses was published in about October 1988.

In February 1989 there was a riot outside the US Consultate in an Indian city (can't remember which one), on the occasion of its planned paperback publication in the US. People were killed. The Ayatollah Khomeini, after watching TV footage of this (and without having read the book, of course), issued his fatwa on February 14.

About two years ago, the Iranian government said it had no intention of enforcing it. But the form of words suggested they didn't utterly repudiate it. Almost immediately, an Islamic fundamentalist organization said that as far as they were concerned, it was still in force.

Rushdie, by the way, recently moved to Manhattan and is living more or less openly there.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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N.R.KISSED
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posted 11 September 2001 02:19 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

The West Bank is cheering. Sick sick sickos.

Some people on the West Bank may be cheering as some people cheered during the bombing of Iraq and some people cheered at the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagazaki. So...

There will be enough (more than usual) anti Palestinian and Arab hyseria in the wake of this disaster.

To imply one group is "sick" is dangerous and unhelpful.
U.S. retribution will of course be justified
"An eye for an Eye leaves the whole world blind.


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jeff house
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posted 11 September 2001 02:20 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One of the ramifications of the attack will be that there will be pressure to curtail civil liberties. First of all, everyone will be required to carry an identity card and identify him/herself upon demand.

Other restrictions will follow.


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 02:27 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Will this expand beyond today? Are there more attacks in the days ahead??
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Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 02:27 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I figure if no avowed enemy of the U.S. claims responsibility then the U.S. will move to eliminate all avowed enemies.
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Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 02:30 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NR kissed - I THINK THIS IS SICK. I do not cheer about death. EVER. My comment stays.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 02:32 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Matrix didn't comment death. As one who knows and loves Dawna ( I do, I really do!) I can speak for her credibility on this issue - she is not pro-death.

She is solid, trust me.


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
MJ
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posted 11 September 2001 02:32 PM      Profile for MJ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, there are always individual sickos. For the record, Arafat made this statement:

``I send my condolences, the condolences of the Palestinian people to American President Bush and his government and to the American people for this terrible act,''

``We completely condemn this serious operation...We were completely shocked. It's unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable.''


From: Around. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 02:33 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
there will be pressure to curtail civil liberties

A temporary limitation on some civil liberties may be justified in stopping 50,000 people from being blown up!

I think this won't be true however. You will see the national guard watching bldgs more closely. Questioning people and looking for unattended baggage or carbombs. Does anyone have a problem with that?


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 02:35 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe things will just close for a few days.

There needs to be a global period of mourning and there needs to be a worldwide gesture of condolences.


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Ian Salim
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posted 11 September 2001 02:36 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And here is the story on the West Bank...
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWorldTrade0109/11_arafat-ap.html

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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 02:44 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Speculation from Yahoo News:

[URL edited out because it was huge and causing major side-scroll - and the article was no longer at that URL anyhow. Michelle.]

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eddie Lear
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posted 11 September 2001 02:45 PM      Profile for Eddie Lear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo it does not matter if those guilty ask for forgivness or not they should get it!
That approach generates enormous long term respect, respect is power.
Don't be a fool marbo, i am not ashamed of myself even the roman empire eventually collapsed are imperialists in history have collapsed! America is no exception one day it will.
It was the same way America hit Iraq on the first day of the GULF WAR,hit the major most powerful institutions first,hit em fast and hard,the only diffrence in this situation those responsible are not a goverment it was an organization of some sort so they will be hard to track down and erradicate.I assure you America will treat any foreign government who is connected in any way as the enemy and unless we have a few brilliant and virtuous leaders out there a major military exchange will take place.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: Eddie Lear ]


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Ian Salim
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posted 11 September 2001 02:46 PM      Profile for Ian Salim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More celebrations...

[Another URL that was causing side scroll - I edited it out since the article was no longer at that URL.]

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 02:48 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No hawkish posturing from the US yet. Too much has happened too quickly.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 02:51 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eddie, think about all the people who are injured for no reason but some whackjob suicide bomber. You think they want to forgive anyone? You're showing your naivete here.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 11 September 2001 02:52 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dawna Matrix: I was not suggesting you were pro death.

I did say it was dangerous to imply that everyone in The West Bank was cheering. Some may be, but not everyone.

I was trying to add some perspective to the extent that there will be plenty of cheering (not by you personally)as the perpetrators or potential perpetrators are hunted down by the U.S.

There will also more than likely be mob violence directed against Arabs living in the states.
Yes there is great SICKNESS in the world. That's why I think it prudent to be careful in laying blame.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 02:53 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe they could be forgiven when their six feet under. What are you trying to say Eddie Lear? ARe you saying the U.S. deserved this?

I think there will be a military response from the U.S.

I think that Bush will get his military budget increases.

I also think this will greatly affect Canada. There will be speculation about how the terrorists entered the U.S. and Canada's lax attitude towards terrorists entering our country will be scrutinized.

The U.S. will probably tighten up the U.S. Canada border which could disastrously affect our trade and Canadian jobs.

Will Canada cooperate fully? Will this be the beginning of a North America Perimeter border? I think so.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Horseshoe Bend
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posted 11 September 2001 02:54 PM      Profile for Horseshoe Bend     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think a paraphrase of a Malcolm X quote is appropriate in light of the Palestinians and their celebration:

"When people are put in cages they will begin to act like animals."


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wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 02:57 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup, looks like isolationism will come from this.
From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 03:00 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NR Kissed - I have an incredible amount of sympathy for the Palestinian plight. But I think oppression is better dealt with in Gandhian mode than sharing sweets and rejoicing over death. That's sick. Turn on a TV - you'll see what I mean.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
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posted 11 September 2001 03:00 PM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think if the U.S. becomes closes the borders around it maybe we should be on the inside and not the outside.
From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
wagepeace
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posted 11 September 2001 03:01 PM      Profile for wagepeace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right on Matrix! You said it!

WAGE FUCKING PEACE PEOPLE!! That's what it's all about man!

Hence my cool name!


From: In a fog and on anti-psychotics | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 03:06 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Much love, wager.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
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posted 11 September 2001 03:08 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is obviously an emotional time. Could we try to keep our heads and not attack each other? (This is NOT in response to the posts immediately above. It's a general comment about some barbs hurled on this thread.)
From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 11 September 2001 03:09 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I'm listening to all this commentary and one book keeps popping into my head, 1984.

I don't know why... the unending war, etc.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 11 September 2001 03:19 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dawna Matrix: I don't have a T.V. everytime I used to turn one on I felt a great sense of sickness.

I am familiar with the image the media likes to send though.

I'm only saying ALL PALESTINIANS ARE NOT REJOICING. THose going to the Mosque or grieving don't quite make the same coverage nor do they excuse the "righteous" retributions that will surely follow.

At the moment I am writing a paper on grief that is closer to home (hmmm) homelessness and death on the streets of T.O., something I see everyday. So I will have to sign off now.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 11 September 2001 03:24 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NR, if you are on the net, go to Massive Attack II thread, and click on Ian Salim's link. I'm sure not everyone is rejoicing. But the people who are, are sick sick people.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 03:56 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the Grotesquely Exaggerated Sense of Self-Importance Dep't:

The Starbucks up my street has closed for the day.

Meanwhile, the kosher bakery-deli next door -- owned and operated by Israeli immigrants, by the way -- remains bravely open.

People do and say the dumbest things after a disaster. I was once on a passenger train that struck, at high speed, a pickup truck, killing both men inside instantly. One man's body was trapped in the truck, the other flung out the window. We could see him lying crumpled on the ground from the window of our car.

One passenger kept saying to the conductor, "I know first aid if it's any help."

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 05:00 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For some initial comment from the artistic world, as opposed to political-science types, on the domestic ramifications of this, you could do worse than check out Slate's Breakfast Table, featuring John Lahr and August Wilson.

[Edited to add: because I admire these two men, and for relief, I just had to go back and read the previous day's installment]

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 11 September 2001 05:12 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone speaking to Petey Mansbridge was quite adamant that the US attack whoever did this. If the trail leads to osama bi laden, then the Taliban must be attacked. If the trail leads to Damascas, well, someone there should be attacked.

Isn't there an international court system for this? Apparently the US retaliated against the taliban for no reason before, acting, em, unilaterally.

I think the Americans are not the best people to deal with this, wrath of old testament Christian fury and all.
If I remember correctly, a world war started cause of some assinated duke in some country in the Balkans. Not that this would lead to a world war, but it makes me think a bit.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 05:27 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The US refused last year to sign onto the International Court of Justice treaty.

It seems in bad taste to point this out now, when they haven't even established how many are dead and injured. But one thing I think we can expect is more calls to police and control the Internet.

For a year or more I've read quotes from "security experts" about how terrorism, drug trafficking etc. -- and of course anti-globalization protests -- are made much easier by present-day technology.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 11 September 2001 05:34 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It already started, lance.
I watched some guy going on about how great Malaysia is, security wise.
I always heard a different spin about security there.

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 05:37 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Singapore -- that's the New Jerusalem (you should pardon the expression). Or so sez Thomas Friedman, anyway.

And when T. Friedman talks... not one damn person listens, I wish.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 11 September 2001 05:43 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a court in the Hague which has jurisdiction over attacks by nation states.
However I do not believe, (without rereading its statute carefully) that it has jurisdiction over "terrorist attacks".

From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 11 September 2001 05:59 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anybody care to guess how many of the "crashed" aircraft that didn't make it to targets were actually shot down?

This is really an amazing effort on the part of the people who organized this attack. The message to the US couldn't be made clearer without a nuclear blast. What remains to be seen is if the US will be so shocked by this as to perhaps, for a moment, recognize how much many people hate them. In my opinion, they couldn't have picked a worse time to do it strategically. The US has a lame-duck president whose "wimp-factor" far exceeds his own father's. His Dad orchestrated the Gulf War partly to infuse his presidency with machismo. Just IMAGINE what Dubya will do.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 06:10 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The USAF is denying rumours that any of the jets were shot down.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
JJRosso
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posted 11 September 2001 06:12 PM      Profile for JJRosso     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Malcolm X summarized the situation in one sentence: "The chickens are coming home to roost."

JJR


From: vernon bc | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 11 September 2001 06:13 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I would have shot them down, so odds are high the USAF would have. I guess we'll know sooner or later.

I wonder how long before the NYSE is back up. 24 hrs? 48? What did these people think they were going to achieve? Nothing can stop the US.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 06:15 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Malcolm X summarized the situation in one sentence: "The chickens are coming home to roost."

Yes, and you can't make an omellette without breaking a few eggs.

But neither statement is an excuse for cackling.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 06:24 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The chickens roost, and then the wolves attack again, and then the chickens roost, and then the wolves make another counter-attack, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum...

Remember the Hatfields and the McCoys.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 September 2001 06:33 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I fear the worst elements of human nature will come to the surface in the aftermath of this terrible attack.

Alexander haig was on CNN infering that perhaps civil rights must be curtailed in the interests of security. There is some talk of "war measures." I received the followin e-mail:

"Hello everyone,

This is Nicholas Longo, the CEO of CoffeeCup Software. As you may have heard the World Trade Center and Pentagon were attacked about 45 minutes ago.

The Team at CoffeeCup would like to send our heart felt sorrow to those that perished in these attacks.

We would like to also say on record that if any country is found responsible for these attacks, we call for that country's complete destruction and annihilation.

Do not let terrorism which is designed to create fear and stop production, halt your life or work.

Stay focused and do not stop what you are doing.


-May God bless us all and the decisions we must make.


Nick-"

Should Americans lose civil liberties, should the U.S. lash out in anger and seek to the "complete destruction and annihilation" of any nation to be held responisble, then the terrorists have won and we all have lost.

As the United States raised a Timothy McVeigh and not all Americans should be held responsible for his actions, not all the citizens of some foreign land should be held responsible for the madness of some within their midst.

I sincerely hope the U.S. will act responsibly by seeking out those responsible and bringing them to justice before a court convened through law. As they did with the Lockerbie bombers, as they did with Timothy Mcveigh.

Violence begets more violence. The United States should seek to end the spiral, not through acquiescence, but by upholding that which they claim to cherish: the rule of law.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 11 September 2001 06:41 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm... I haven't seen any of the live TV coverage -- has there been much mention of "Anarchists" in all of this?
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 11 September 2001 06:52 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
no anarchists, it's those Islam, remember? Only lefties/anarchists questioned an anarchist source.

Flip on the TV Vertbatim.
I just saw footage on CTV with the camera on a street looking up at the second tower. There is a guy in the bottom corner. And then, from behind a building closest to the left, the second jet smashes right into it.

It is quite... horrific? I'm at a loss for a word to describe it.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 September 2001 07:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think America should forgive those responsible but that is unlikly

But that would be the Christian thing to do. George Bush only displays the Christian qualities that are convenient.

A close relative of mine is having a bit of an anxiety attack, so I'm going to emerg with her now (she just called). She thinks it must be brought on by this whole upsetting thing (she took it pretty hard), but she just wants to make sure it's a panic attack and nothing serious. Gotta go. Talk to y'all soon.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 11 September 2001 08:45 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since we are speculating, what do you figure is a fair reaction should it come to pass that Bin Laden is responsible for these attacks all the while under the protection of Afganistan?
From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Horseshoe Bend
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posted 11 September 2001 08:49 PM      Profile for Horseshoe Bend     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Want to add irony to the situation? The US helped put the Taliban in power, it was one of the factions we backed against the Soviets during the '80s. (Also, that should be a lesson to stay out of Afganistan.)

A guy today told me he thought we should level Afganistan. By my understanding, it pretty much is leveled.


From: Cherokee, NC USA | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 08:51 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
No action will be enough, but I'm a fan of restraint. Apprehend those resonsible, and bring them to justice through the courts. Then, one can only hope that the US learns a lesson about saber-rattling foreign policy.


When I got home from work, I looked up at my apartment building. It's 25 floors. I tried to imagine three more buildings stacked on top of it. I then tried to imagine it collapsing. It just boggled my mind.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
prince
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posted 11 September 2001 08:51 PM      Profile for prince     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Civil Liberties will surely be diminished. I would not want to be part of any mass demonstration or any civil disobedience in the U.S. or Canada. Leftist extremist bullshit will not be tolerated by the silent majority.
From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 September 2001 08:55 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Want to add irony to the situation? The US helped put the Taliban in power, it was one of the factions we backed against the Soviets during the '80s. (Also, that should be a lesson to stay out of Afganistan.)

Osman bin Laden also was a CIA operative. Whaddya know, eh?

According to a indymedia.org newswire post, the japanese Red Army is now claiming responsibilty. Claiming revenge for U.S. nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 11 September 2001 09:05 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
clockwork: I don't own a TV, and I'm at school, so this is it for information for me.

And the Red Army is claiming responsibility? Interesting. I wonder if the Weather Underground and then the Dairy Farmers will claim responsibility next. The Red Army doesn't have the resources to do this.

I seriously hope that all this death leads people to examine their arrogance concerning western supremacy. Even though it is insane -- it would be nice to think that something good could come from this.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 11 September 2001 09:06 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't read all the messages, I just got home, I watched the news at the local university campus, we were informed of the actions by our business teacher.

This could be anyone. It could be Islamic Fundamentalists like they claim. it could be the opposition in Afghanistan, possibly trying get the US to attack Afghanistan, make the Taliban weaker, and put the opposition in a better place. It could be the Taliban itself. It could also be an American, like we all saw in Oklahoma. It could be someone from one of those American militias. It could be any fundamentalist organization. WHO KNOWS!!!!

Bombs are going off over kabul, and the US says its not them. I'm beginning to think that the Afghanistani opposition has some role in this whole plot, or at least just the bombs over Kabul.

Sorry if my message is just a jumble of incomplete sentences, this is very awkward.

A commentater on CBC said that this may justify the use of a tactical nuclear device, care of the US. THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!! I saw the footage, and it looked like it was straight from a movie, this is just so hard to grip. My Aunt is in Union City, and she had a great view of the WTC from her apartment window. Shw probably watched the whole thing! THis is terrible!

Whoever did this is an enemy to all those who breathe. At the same time, let us not scapegoat, or do any whitewashing. Someone from the Arab-American Association was commenting on CBC radio that there have already been civilian attacks on Arab-Americans, regardless as to wether they are fully assimilated or not. A child in grade 5 was beaten up for being Arab, I heard.

As for the celebrations in parts of the West Bank, he quoted "God forgive them, they know not what they do". He said that the Palestinians are living in hellish, and irrational conditions/surroundings, and that we should not be surprised that a few of them are acting in a hellish or irrational manner.

This is terrible.

On a personal note, my hampster died this morning, and there's a boil water advisory for my street. It's not a good day for local optimists.


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 11 September 2001 09:21 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's the thing locally and in the short-term I'm most worried about. People using this as an excuse to carry out racist acts against Arabs and other Middle Easterners here. Ah...Shrub's on now.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 11 September 2001 09:29 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Bush's speech:

"Our financial institutions remain strong."

The US has lost HOW many of its top financial minds? Morgan Stanley Dean Witter is the biggest tenant of the WTC. What about all the documents and data stored in the buildings? Are there backups kept off-site?

Bush also said that not only would those responsible be punished, but also those who give them comfort. A veiled reference to Afghanistan?


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 11 September 2001 09:42 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tasteless joke you can flame me over: Bush just basically stated the search for the Real Killers(tm) is on.

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,
for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me." -- Psalm 23:4

One citizen commentator remarked that we should nuke every terrorist country there is. I have to ask, when I see the celebrations in East Jerusalem, and hear the Islamic fundamentalists describe their point of view, I don't see a difference between "there" and "here".
"We" just control the money... or did, if the KBMBoy is right.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 11 September 2001 09:49 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a somewhat predictable editorial from Newsweek:

America Loses Its Innocence, Yet Again

As for responsibility...

quote:
I wonder if the Weather Underground and then the Dairy Farmers will claim responsibility next.

Speaking of the Weathermen, here's an amazingly Ill-Timed Quote of the Day, courtesy of Timothy Noah of Slate:

quote:
"I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."--Weather Underground radical-turned-memoirist Bill Ayers, in the Sept. 11 New York Times.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
JJRosso
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posted 11 September 2001 10:02 PM      Profile for JJRosso     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What did Malcolm X mean when the said, "The chickens are coming home to roost."?

He apparently meant that whatever happens should not be taken out of context. In this case, the destruction of US property and lives should not be based on just the destruction – and retaliation – but before one should judge, the whole thing must be put into proper context. For example: what has the US been doing all around the world for the last 56 years? Has it been active in promoting democracy, policies that benefit the common people or has it been acting like a tyrannical colonial power?

The answers can be found by several experts on the subject they are:
The Triumph of Evil – Austin Murphy who details US policies against the American native Indians to world policies to the 1990s .

Rogue State – by William Blum a long time expert on US foreign policy and US globalist interventions.

To Kill a Nation – Michael Parenti – details how such policies are carried out to destroy a nation.

Whiteout – by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair details how the US uses the CIA to sabotage nations – even recuiting Nazi scientists after WWII to arming opium traffickers in Afghanistan.

Even without reading these books, common sense should make a person wonder why the US attacks and invades tiny countries such as bombing Grenada and Panama (bombing the slum districts in totally illegal operations countering several international laws).

Unfortunately, the power of myth and propaganda will now enable the US to commence neo-fascist rule to expand its imperialism (and encourage more retaliation) and get away with it even in its own country!

Hence lets not get carried away with emotion and keep everything in context and perspective -- for a form of retaliation has already been in full force around the world by the US since the end of WWII. Just read the above books.

JJR


From: vernon bc | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
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posted 11 September 2001 10:10 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please forgive my snarkiness, JJR. But as you say, context is important. A quote without context is easily misunderstood.

Just so it's understood that nothing would justify today's events. Neither, of course, would anything justify Vietnam, Grenada and the rest.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 11 September 2001 10:41 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dreaded double-post. (Why is it dreaded, by the way?)

On the subject of possible Internet/technology crackdowns, here's a piece from Newsweek:

Did encryption empower these terrorists?


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 11 September 2001 11:14 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The article about encryption is a good example of an issue I'm woried about for the longer-term - that this attack will serve to justify new limitations on our rights of free expression and privacy.

As for the status of the financial institutions housed in the Trade Centre towers, certainly the loss of life and talent is going to be a key issue for them. Data shouldn't be. Financial institutions, and indeed almost all large corporations maintain or contract for off-site data storage.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jake
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posted 12 September 2001 12:33 AM      Profile for Jake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In reflecting on this subject perhaps some consideration of "who stands to gain" might be worth some thought and even specifically "what gain" considering the retrebution that will undoubtedly be visited on the most popular and politically expedient of those being touted as candidates.

Jake


From: the recycling bin | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 September 2001 03:08 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Markbo, the USA can slam its borders shut for all I care.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
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posted 12 September 2001 03:35 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Among the few public figures who showed both a reasoned and an emotional response today was former NY governor Mario Cuomo. He was pilloried, to use a favourite word of my absolute least favourite babbler, when he said that the way to ensure that such attacks didn't happen again was to make a more just world. "Civilization" is the answer, he said. We've got to be more civilized, and ensure that the strong help the weak, and don't oppress or exploit them. I thought he was right on. Without minimizing the horror, but without seeking in turn to dehumanize others as so many were dehumanized and killed or maimed today, he sought to be bigger than the self-righteous killers behind this event. Sadly, such far-sightedness is rare.

I keep thinking back to that book I read, _Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century_, and how what may have saved us from nuclear holocaust was JFK remembering pictures of people in Hiroshima. He thought he didn't want to see anyone suffer like that, anywhere in the world. He also remembered how, leading up to World War I, the major powers gradually locked themselves into positions from which they could not retreat, and were propelled forward into an orgy of senseless destruction.

The pure horror of today's events, played over and over on our TV screens, is close to us because we can relate to the victims; we can imagine we know someone there, or maybe we really do know people there; because it punctures many of our certainties, the rhythms of our lives; because it's so singular an event in our own lives, as North Americans, that no one I know can recall a parallel. Of course, there have been countless hideous deaths, for many of which America is responsible, all over the world. But this seems different to us, because it is directed at us or those who are like us. We can't imagine being a Chechen woman whose son has just been tortured to death, or a Rwandan butchered by Western-backed Hutu militias.

Yet I am disgusted by the reptilian response of many people I see, the clamour for revenge and senseless retaliation. People filled with hatred because they feel weak and victimized will not be destroyed or deterred by such action, which will only deepen resentment and hostility. It's been tried, and shown to fail, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. It's stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Like the hydra, where one head is cut, two will appear. Wisdom is the only way out of this, in the long term. People get angry when others suggest forgiveness. But wouldn't that be the most radical thing, unprecedented in history, that anyone could do? It might even be Christian, for a change.

But today, we see others trying to dehumanize Palestinians and Arabs by pointing to that segment of their population that also succumbed to the urges of the reptilian brain. The whole thing is depressing. Time to head for the forest with some poetry and a lute. I don't think our current leaders know how to do anything but make it worse.

To be fair to them, though, if I were them, I'd probably think, "we can't let this go unpunished, or we'll be inviting more." Of course, the evidence is that every punishment in turn creates a new retaliation, but I still probably would succumb to this thinking. Probably I'd decide to bomb the hell out of Bin Laden's base 1 hour east of Qandahar, and for that matter Mullah Omar's base one hour north of Qandahar. (Gee how do I know that, you wonder? A friend works in Afghanistan; and in a former job of mine, the weekly reports featured a lot of news from Afghanistan.) Then I'd wreck the only two good roads in Afghanistan, the roads leading from Qandahar to those two houses. Then I'd fund the rebel alliance up the wazoo, though it'd create ever more misery for the Afghan people. And I'd tell Pakistan to get its regulars the f*ck out of Afghanistan and stop supporting the Taliban, right now or else. (Of course, this would only strengthen the already strong fundamentalist forces inside Pakistan.)

But I bet none of that, ultimately, would stop a similar thing from happening. What *would* is what Mario Cuomo said. But he's been pilloried for it. This day is dark in so many ways.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 12 September 2001 04:07 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mm-hmm.

One part of me wants to advocate live-testing a few 100-megaton nukes in the Afghani/Pakistani region, but another wishes that the world were much more civilized to begin with and that the inequities that drive the cycle of hate didn't exist.

Having said that, the USA can still slam the borders shut for all I care. I want no part of a brain-dead stupid culture whose idealization and epitome of existence is a fat, lard-assed, cigar-chomping, fast-food-mashing, SUV-driving moron barrelling down the interstate at 85 MPH who doesn't give a good goddamn about anybody except himself and whether he can stay alive to keep pissing in front and shitting in back. And to put the cherry on top of the sundae, the current President has a serious intelligence and credibility deficiency.

Great symbol for the "world's most powerful nation".


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 12 September 2001 05:21 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
William Pfaff in the Herald Tribune:

quote:
Even a totalitarian security state cannot deal with this - even if it were to suppress basic civil liberties. It is extremely important to understand this, since there will be two natural reactions to what has happened, both of them essentially futile.
First there will be continuing calls for revenge against whomever is responsible, presuming that the author is eventually identified.

The practical uselessness of revenge has repeatedly been demonstrated, and continues to be demonstrated in the Middle East, since those who employ terrorism are not functioning on a pragmatic scale of reward and punishment. As the Israelis find, making martyrs of your enemies invites further martyrdoms.

The second reaction will be that the United States needs even more elaborate defenses than now exist. Yet the Pentagon, CIA, NSA and the rest of the American apparatus of national security proved incapable of preventing the attacks Tuesday. They are incapable of preventing their repetition in some other version.

There are no technological defenses, as such, against this sort of thing. Surely, if nothing else comes out of the attacks Tuesday, they ought to have demonstrated to Americans the irrelevance of national missile defense.
There are ordinary security measures that can be taken or improved, but the nature of attacks mounted from within the regular functions of society, means that no comprehensive or conclusive defense exists. The entire history of terrorism in both 19th and 20th centuries has demonstrated that.

The final and most profound lesson of these events is one that it will be hardest for government to accept - this government in particular. It is that the only real defense against external attack is serious, continuing and courageous effort to find political solutions for national and ideological conflicts that involve the United States.

The immediate conclusion nearly everyone has drawn about the origin of these attacks is that they come out of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle. It is reasonable to think that this is so, although there is as yet no proof.

For more than 30 years the United States has refused to make a genuinely impartial effort to find a resolution to that conflict. It has involved itself in the Middle East in a thousand ways, but has never accepted a responsibility for dealing impartially with the two sides - locked in their shared agony and their mutual tragedy.

If current speculation about these bombings proves to be true, the United States has now been awarded its share in that Middle Eastern tragedy.


I'm not normally a Polly Toynbee fan, but she turned in a not bad effort today:


quote:

What will it do to America's psyche? That is what the world trembles to discover. Nothing good, everyone fears. The urge to retaliate will be powerful - though until it is known against whom, the scale, size and danger of following that instinct is unknowable. But remember the swift cruise missile retaliation against an Afghan mosque in vain search for Osama bin Laden's lair, and the unguided cruise attack on a Sudan pharmaceutical factory after the bombing of US embassies. They achieved nothing beyond deepening the passionate hatred of America in those corners of the globe. Bad intelligence, bad targeting, aimless firing off of missiles seemed to Clinton a political necessity.

So for the sake of world sanity and limiting the scale of this calamity, around the world people will be fervently hoping that this was another Oklahoma-style militia attack, an all-American home-grown madness. But few realistically imagine a bunch of backwoods rednecks pulled off something like this. Every expert on international affairs out commenting yesterday was filled with foreboding. "Very dangerous, very, very dangerous," one said over and over again, surveying this greatest global shudder since the Cuba missile crisis.

This has set back the cause of liberalism everywhere. Tolerance, negotiation, finding slow but sure solutions to conflict, the rule of reason over madness - these died along with the thousands of victims yesterday. Atrocity is in danger of becoming the common language of disputes, revenge the only response. Anti-Americanism takes on a vile hue as celebrations break out along the West Bank.

Only 10 years ago when the iron curtain came crashing down in Russia, the optimistic talk was all of the peace dividend. How fatally badly the west has managed world affairs since then. How little hope that better not worse will come from this.


Other comments:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,550359,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,550358,00.html

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Markbo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 124

posted 12 September 2001 09:08 AM      Profile for Markbo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Having said that, the USA can still slam the borders shut for all I care. I want no part of a brain-dead stupid culture whose idealization and epitome of existence is a fat, lard-assed, cigar-chomping, fast-food-mashing, SUV-driving moron barrelling down the interstate at 85 MPH who doesn't give a good goddamn about anybody except himself and whether he can stay alive to keep pissing in front and shitting in back. And to put the cherry on top of the sundae, the current President has a serious intelligence and credibility deficiency.

You, my friend, are making stereotypical statements that usually belong to the worst kind of racist.

As Prime Minister Blair said, althought th U.S. was singled out, this was an attack on the free and democratic worl.


From: Windsor | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 12 September 2001 11:44 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I guess the US can kiss that tax cut good-bye . . .
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wiggabee
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1267

posted 12 September 2001 11:45 AM      Profile for wiggabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This has been a clear cut case of the oppressed retaliating against thier oppressors. Yes, it should be a wake up call for those ignorant of thier own countries' actions abroad. The reason for the US's vast wealth is due to thier trampling on other people and hopefully this action will bring that to light for some people.
Unfortunately the statements from most people on the air has been bullshit rhetoric, the president being the most visible culprit. If only reason could break through and people start to consider the real reasons why this all had happened, it could actually be a positive thing (minus the deaths), and could go a long way towards ending mass slaughter and oppression in countries abroad. Perhaps the US will stop supporting dictatorial fascists, perhaps it will rain gold coins...

From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 12 September 2001 11:55 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Can terrorism sometimes be justified. I believe it can be argued "yes", when both the indentities of the combatants and the objectives of the conflict are clear. One could make such a case for terrorism in Northern Ireland or in Palestine, because it's clear who the combatants are (IRA vs Britain, PLO vs Isreal), and what they want (independance). Not everyone would agree with the argument, but at least the argument would be a reasonable one.

Yesterday's attack hardly meets these criteria. "Because the US is bad," is not enough of a justification for anonymous individuals to make such an unprecendented strike against innocent civilians. This is the most extreme kind of example of using force against another party simply because they don't agree with that party's politics. That kind of attack is never justified, IMHO.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
judym
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 29

posted 12 September 2001 12:02 PM      Profile for judym   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, folks, this thread is getting long. I'm going to start a new one, called "The Day After."

Again, these are very emotional times. I ask everyone to not fall into personal attacks.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: judym ]


From: earth | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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