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Author Topic: NDP'ers who don't like Jack Layton
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 11:57 AM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are there any NDP'ers here who dislike Jack Layton?
From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 06 January 2005 12:05 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
why don't you review the NDP forum to see the umpteen pro and anti-jack discussions over the course of 2004?
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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Babbler # 3469

posted 06 January 2005 12:05 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There might be a few who like, dis him.

Just out of curiousity, who's putting you up to this? And if some NDP supporter tells you they don't like Jack, is there going to be a big thread on FD entitled "NDP Members Hate Layton"?

I ask because this is a very, very odd first post for a babbler. Most newbies don't seem to have such a blatant agenda.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 06 January 2005 12:08 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In Ontario, you won't find many who dislike Jack. Mind you, I was a great Alexa fan too.

In Ontario, Jack raised our vote from 368,709 in 2000 to 915,310 in 2004. In Nova Scotia, it went up too, from 104,277 to 123,360.

Did the loss of Susan MacAlpine-Gillis in Dartmouth have anything to do with Alexa being replaced by Jack? It's hard to see how.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 01:24 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been an NDP'er for several years, actually, and I'm no spy.

I hate Jack Layton with a passion. I think he's a sleezebag and I actually quit the NDP and joined the Liberals earlier this year because of his embarrasing performance since the election.

I'm actually seeing if there are any people on this forum who feel the same way that I do.

I was wary to join this forum, because I heard that it was full of insiders and political mavens.

But if you see my question as a direct threat, then I apologize.

I think the entire Nova Scotia campaign was a huge disaster, matter of fact the entire NDP campaign in general, because Jack Layton should not be leading our party. Simple as that.

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: BriJonNDP ]


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 January 2005 01:30 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let me get this straight: You took your ball and went home, and now you want the rest of us get rid of the leader we elected with a huge mandate and doubled our vote in the last election? No thanks.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 06 January 2005 01:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, he must be a real NDP'er: he's got the letters N, D and P right in his name!
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 January 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And I, of course, am a true canine. And much prettier than any wolf, by the way.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 06 January 2005 01:40 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've never even met the Queen.
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 January 2005 01:42 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Should we tell the SO that, kingblake?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 06 January 2005 01:42 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
I actually quit the NDP and joined the Liberals earlier this year because of his embarrasing performance since the election.

That's funny, because I know at least ten people who quit the Liberals and joined the NDP because of Paul Martin's embarrassing performance before, during and after the election.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 01:56 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*Sigh*...It's nice to see an NDP forum so un-biased and open to discussion.

Anyway, Jack Layton was elected by a huge margin, because he was the flavour of the month and has a lot of dynamism and charisma.

But he was an embarrasment at the debate, he vastly overestimated the amount of seats the NDP was set to win and he is the only one of the major political party leaders who I can't see as being a Prime Minister.

I respect the NDP and what it stands for, though. When I joined the Liberals, I did so out of protest, but I cannot deny my true nature and so I came back to the NDP, because I am NDP. But I do hope that it won't take many more embarrasments before the NDP decide to review their leadership and put somebody in charge who represents an electable and respectable NDP. Someone like Bill Blaikie or Lorne Nystrom.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 06 January 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
And I, of course, am a true canine. And much prettier than any wolf, by the way.

One troll per thead please.

[drift]Did you read about the wolf attack in Saskatchewan? Must have been a gay wolf. The victim's name was Desjarlais.[/drift]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 06 January 2005 02:05 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like Bill Blaikie and Lorne Nystrom. I could have been happy with either of them as NDP leader instead of Jack, had the party voted such. But I wonder why it is that, these days, it is mostly Liberals and Conservatives who keep coming to this forum to tell us that we should have one of them as leader instead?

As a New Democrat, I think Paul Martin did an excellent job reducing the Liberal Party's seats in Parliament from 172 to 135. I think that proves Paul Martin is a great leader and I hope the Liberals keep him in charge for a long time!


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
pencil-skirt
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posted 06 January 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for pencil-skirt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok I guess some stuffed shirts might not consider Jack Layton to be 'respectable' in the traditional parliamentarian sense, but who cares? Yes he is modern - he is married to a strong woman politician who is of another race, he drinks martinis and fundraises with the Barenaked Ladies, he seems more like the kind of guy who goes rock climbing in an urban gym than one who is a lumberjack or a hunter (a la Bill Blaikie or Stockwell Day), but he also has a lot of integrity, and I wouldn't want him to change his image.

I don't see how you can call him sleazy. Jack is the total opposite of that. When the Tories wanted to vote against the throne speech, they teamed up with the Bloc and only Jack said they were being partisan and stupid - and that the public elected a minority government to try and work together, not to bring down the government for a speech.

But it sounds like you are just more right wing than most NDPers...you favour the right wing of our party (nystrom), and maybe you are to the right of Lorne Nystrom as well and you belong with the Liberals.


From: Saturn | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 02:49 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I tried to join the Liberals, but I didn't feel at home there. Some of my favourite politicians are NDP.

And I'm not on the right-wing of the NDP, because I was a huge supporter of Svend Robinson and what happened to him really upset me. He is an amazing man and I hope he runs in Vancouver Centre next time around, like it's rumoured he will.

I respect Bill Blaikie, due to his integrity, his experience and the face that he gives the NDP.

Frankly, the NDP will never achieve government going the way it is. And that's the goal here. I'm sick and tired of the NDP being a "movement" or a "social voice." We need to work toward government, and the only way we're going to do that is by putting a responsible face to the party. Jack Layton would be a good MP, but his constantly-smiling face makes the party look goofy.

Could you imagine Layton being taken seriously by world leaders? Responding to crises? Giving the year-end address?


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 06 January 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
Jack Layton would be a good MP, but his constantly-smiling face makes the party look goofy.

Could you imagine Layton being taken seriously by world leaders? Responding to crises? Giving the year-end address?


I can imagine Jack Layton being taken seriously by world leaders. The world seems to take some pretty unusual characters seriously already.

I'm wondering how having so much hatred towards one individual is working for you. I recognize that, like everyone else, Jack has his shortcomings. I also know from personal experience that my hatred is far more about me that the other person. One of my friends describes it as drinking poison while hoping someone else will die.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Burns
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posted 06 January 2005 02:59 PM      Profile for Burns   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I seem to remember the Tories saying the same thing about Jean Chretien in the final week of the 1993 campaign...

As a general aside I find New Democrats most annoying traits is the way they spend way more time undermining their leaders then supporting them.


From: ... is everything. Location! Location! Location! | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 06 January 2005 03:07 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
But he was an embarrasment at the debate, he vastly overestimated the amount of seats the NDP was set to win ...

When I joined the Liberals, I did so out of protest, but I cannot deny my true nature and so I came back to the NDP, because I am NDP. But I do hope that it won't take many more embarrasments before the NDP decide to review their leadership ...



When Paul Martin turned to Layton during the English debate and said, "Did your handlers tell you to interrupt all the time?" he was basically hitting paydirt. Jack's performance during the debate was an unmitigated disaster, and probably cost at least 10 seats by itself.

The earlier gaffe on the homeless deaths was not a reasurring episode either. He should have either stuck to his guns and done the full Jack Nicholson thing ("You're god damned right Martin murdered them all!!! If you can't handle the truth, tough shit soldier!!!") or else done a satisfactory apology/withdrawal. Instead, it was neither, and it didn't wash at all.

But go back for a minute to what Martin said. The handlers. They are the ones who need to find new employment, not Layton.

I have been round the track with these people before. I still have memories of Audrey McLauglin in the early 1990s appearing before an NDP audience at the Hotel Vancouver and making a big fool of herself with silly rhetoric and stupid arm gestures that were completely out of character. The handlers had struck again, just as they have so many times before and since, offering up completely stupid advice, and then being able to blame it on the Leader/Candidate when it all turns sour.

Can I ask you to do us all a small favour. Tear up your NDP card and get involved with the Liberals again. Tell them all you left the NDP a second time because you had heard ominous rumours of a completely new contingent of organizers being hired by Layton's office, the Ottawa office, the Toronto office, etc., etc. That will have the Liberals really spooked.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
inukjuak
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posted 06 January 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for inukjuak   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Every leader since I became an NDP member, and that's back to David Lewis, has has had a learning curve when not everything that was said came out as it was intended, and not everything that was tried was a super idea.


However, our modulated gains during the last election can't be laid solely to Jack's account, nor to alleged mistaken thinking of his handlers. That's an easy route that actually avoids the fine-grain, riding-level work that will generate future success.


Blanket condemnation is as useless as blind adoration, if you want to do more than just blow off steam. It would be more useful instead to identify specific weaknesses in the way the NDP presents itself, speaks and listens to constituents, and leverages the strength it has in Parliament, and work to make them more effective.

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: inukjuak ]


From: Lowell, MA | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 06 January 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, who are these "handlers" exactly? Is there a list of them somewhere? Is that their actual job title, "Handler?" Are they unionized?
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 06 January 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
I think the entire Nova Scotia campaign was a huge disaster . . .

Could you be more specific? Do you have any polling evidence to suggest that a more restrained Jack Layton during the debates would have won us Dartmouth? We know the party dropped in the polls in Toronto during the final days when Martin succeeded in misleading Toronto voters into thinking that he would have to resign if Harper got one more seat than him, or one more vote than him, or whatever the confusing impression was. Did anything similar happen in Nova Scotia?

You haven't responded yet to my earlier question: "In Ontario, Jack raised our vote from 368,709 in 2000 to 915,310 in 2004. In Nova Scotia, it went up too, from 104,277 to 123,360. Did the loss of Susan MacAlpine-Gillis in Dartmouth have anything to do with Alexa being replaced by Jack?"

If you are sincere, perhaps you will.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 06 January 2005 04:25 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you're the type of person who instantly leaves the party because you don't like who was elected leader, your committment is about as deep as a Saskatchewan slough in August. Funny enough, the only people who get to determine the leadership of the party are MEMBERS, and they do that at every federal convention.
From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 January 2005 04:32 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So by increasing the seat count in a political environment with a much stronger conservative wing and a side swipping liberal part, increasing membership, voters, and media attention, PLUS the huge added bonus of bringing the Missile Defense Shield to the forefront and forcing Marting to make a stand on it for a change, Jack has been a failure?

Gawd, I'm hope I'm that much of a failure in everything I do.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm what is known in some circles as a centrist NDP'er.

I'm trying to foster healthy debate between people who feel differently about being a New Democrat, but apparently the majority of the people posting on this site are the same type of New Democrats who voted for Steve Orcherton during the BCNDP leadership convention, and who think that Jack Layton doesn't make a complete fool of himself nearly everytime he opens his mouth.

I've read a lot of hatred here regarding Bev Desjarlais just because she's opposed to same-sex marriage. Why? Isn't she entitled to her opinion? Or has the freedom of expression been left out of the latest revision of the NDP Constitution.

You people are the same types of jackasses, like the two co-chairs of the BCNDP, who complain that the NDP isn't left enough, that it is abandoning its core values, that we need to take a page out of Bev Meslo's book and that every single person who isn't a left-wing lunatic is a "Liberal".

Well, I'm proud of being a New Democrat who actually wants to do what it takes to bring our party to power. We can be social democrats without being on the far-left.

I came to this forum, because all the other ones I was on were run by Conservative members who attacked me for being a "commie" and a "lefty" and so I come here and I'm basically told to leave the NDP, because I'm too conservative.

Some hospitality the left shows for people trying to insert a new point of view into your little discussion!


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 06 January 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
I'm trying to foster healthy debate...

Hint. Leading off with a description of the party leader as "a sleazeball" isn't usually a good way of fostering a healthy debate.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 05:03 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My opinion, albeit somewhat abrasive.

I could have said it in nicer terms.

Let me elaborate more maturely, if you will.

I like Jack Layton's ideas. I've read his books and enjoy them. I like his political sense.

However, I do not like the direction he wishes to take the party. I do not like the fact that he is seen, but non-New Democrats, as a "used car salesman" look-alike. I do not like the fact that he has no debating skills. I do not feel that he portrays himself as a Prime Minister in waiting.

I do not feel, right now, that he is a good leader. Maybe in a few years, once he's gotten more federal experience. Once he has won, and re-won his seat since 1979 like Bill Blaikie and Svend Robinson have, then maybe he'll be ready, but I do not feel that someone with no federal political experience should be able to come in and become the leader of a major political party.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 06 January 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
You people are the same types of jackasses...

I thought this was a nice touch, too.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 06 January 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look, if you want to be frustrating, then be frustrating. I put up with a bunch of Harper lovers on a site for long enough to not let things get to me.

Rather than pick apart what I say, why not try focusing on ways we can make our party more electable.

Whether you like it or not, I'm a New Democrat and every member of the party should have some input about the future of the party.

If it makes you feel better and helps the discussion proceed beyond attacks on me, then I'm sorry I called you jackasses.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 06 January 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who's attacking you?
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 06 January 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't you follow your own advice and not open a thread with namecalling and resort to namecalling throughout the discussion? Why don't you come up with a list of problem areas for the NDP and then ---here's a concept--propose well thought out solutions?
From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
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posted 06 January 2005 05:32 PM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm generally considered on every forum a left-winger, often the most left wing of all participants. But come one now, do you really need to accuse every member of the NDP that somehow opposes Jack or some left-wing policies as a bigot, a right-winger or a troll? It's getting really, really annoying and is preventing debates from happening that could be interesting for all of us.

Now as to the subject, I have met many new democrats who didn't like Jack, with some criticisms that are valid. He does lack a certain amount of statesmanship compared to others, and is generally more a model of a social activist rather than a politician. Many of us like him for it, many others don't like him for the same reason. I think he should try to be more serious when dealing with the mainstream media and making declarations on policy, give people a glimpse of what he would be like if he became Prime Minister, because many just can't imagine him as PM, and it's a problem. Harper's got the opposite problem, he's too wooden, too serious all the time, but maybe we should realize that being too jovial and enthusiastic under all situations may also become a problem. It's not the first time it came up, even just after the debate, the "sleazy car salesman" image was being evoked by many simultaneously and spontaneously.

About his "handlers", there has been many problems with the campaign organizers. I know the case of Québec more than others because I was a candidate and I took part in the election's post-mortem. I don't know if it was the same in all provinces. For the debate preparation, there was certainly something lacking there, there were too many generalities told, slogans too often repeated.

The election's over, we don't have to silence our misgivings to preserve our image anymore. A sincere reflexion is needed, because it seems clear that something HAS gone wrong in the last elections, 15.7% and 19 seats was under even our pessimistic estimations. Mentionning mostly external problems like strategic voting and media bias is valid, but because they're external doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps against them.


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 06 January 2005 05:39 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
I've read a lot of hatred here regarding Bev Desjarlais just because she's opposed to same-sex marriage. Why? Isn't she entitled to her opinion? Or has the freedom of expression been left out of the latest revision of the NDP Constitution.

I think it should be written into law that you, YOU, BriJonNDP, are not entitled to the same rights as other Canadians because I don't like you and therefore think you should be legally inferior to me.

Yes, I'm entitled to have that opinion. And you'd certainly be entitled to voice the opinion that I'm a bigoted piece of shit and a danger to the rights of others because of my complete lack of respect for the Charter of Rights and its values.

Just like that bigoted piece of shit Bev Desjarlais. Understand yet?

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 06 January 2005 06:04 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So your problem is;
Let's see Jack made a few minor rookie mistakes, which he admitted to, has facial hair (which I've grown partial too since growing my own) and some supporters of other Parties don't like him.

I'll take that over a 'leader' and I use the term loosely, who lost a majority government, pushed out anyone who disagreed with him, gave new life to the Bloc and a greater platform for seperation, used my tax money (and yours) to fly around the country explaining why it really wasn't so bad that his Party sent millions more of our money to their friends, likes to talk about what government could do, but has not bothered in all his time as PM to actually do any of it, campaigned agaist the 'hidden agenda' of the COnservatives but turned a blind eye to those within his party who share it, (early supporters of PM btw).
No thanks- that's leadership we can do without. Well actually PM does sell a lot of NDP memberships so maybe we should keep him.

I'll take the person who doubled our vote, who was well liked at the door by people in this very rural riding and who has a record of actually doing things.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 06 January 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

The election's over, we don't have to silence our misgivings to preserve our image anymore. A sincere reflexion is needed, because it seems clear that something HAS gone wrong in the last elections, 15.7% and 19 seats was under even our pessimistic estimations. Mentionning mostly external problems like strategic voting and media bias is valid, but because they're external doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps against them.[/QB]

As a candidate as well I agree there were some problems with the campaign, but every Party will tell you that. Any problems with our final vote and seat count might have a bit to do with the Leader's tour, but I think there are bigger issues going on.

We could feel the change in the last week. We went from one of the contenders to an also ran in the last few days. You could feel it. That is more about our message than the messanger. Jack was well liked at the door, but there was a disconnect with voters and our message.

I think it is becuase we did not focus on a few universal themes. We had more of a tree approach than a forest approach as I told someone today. That is something I think has happened in the Party in general and can not be laid at Jack's feet.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 January 2005 06:27 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
who was well liked at the door by people in this very rural riding

Whom are you speaking of here? No critisism meant, just curious


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 06 January 2005 06:36 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
like the two co-chairs of the BCNDP

According to the constitution of the BC NDP, they don't have co-chairs.

And you'll have a great discussion if you keep up the name calling, don't want to have people "pick apart what I say" (we're supposed to discuss what isn't said??), continually accuse babblers of being ideologically identical automatons, and refuse to accept that democracy and diversity in the left means that maybe you don't get to dictate the outcomes of a debate. faith said it best.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 06 January 2005 07:18 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But SG, i think you're assuming that BriJonLib wants discussion. I'm not so sure, myself.
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 06 January 2005 07:35 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:

Whom are you speaking of here? No critisism meant, just curious


Jack


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 06 January 2005 08:19 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
My opinion, albeit somewhat abrasive.

I could have said it in nicer terms.

Let me elaborate more maturely, if you will.

I like Jack Layton's ideas. I've read his books and enjoy them. I like his political sense.

However, I do not like the direction he wishes to take the party. I do not like the fact that he is seen, but non-New Democrats, as a "used car salesman" look-alike. I do not like the fact that he has no debating skills. I do not feel that he portrays himself as a Prime Minister in waiting.

I do not feel, right now, that he is a good leader. Maybe in a few years, once he's gotten more federal experience. Once he has won, and re-won his seat since 1979 like Bill Blaikie and Svend Robinson have, then maybe he'll be ready, but I do not feel that someone with no federal political experience should be able to come in and become the leader of a major political party.



And to think that I have been accuse of trolling.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
speechpoet
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posted 06 January 2005 09:24 PM      Profile for speechpoet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to worry, Budd. It's always humbling to see a real professional at work.
From: Sunny Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
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posted 06 January 2005 10:05 PM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Once he has won, and re-won his seat since 1979 like Bill Blaikie and Svend Robinson have

Soooo.... What you mean is that he won't be ready until he makes a time machine, goes back to 1979 and win a seat for the NDP every election until he reaches 2004 again?

Just kidding, I understand what you mean, but I don't necessarily agree.


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 06 January 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just a couple of points from a non-NDP member but NDP voter:

(1) When the NDP elected Layton to be the leader, a number of people I know were really excited. They thought Layton was a really good change for the NDP (many of them not knowing much about Alexa, for various reasons). I even attended a sort of party about the whole thing (well, it was one of several things being celebrated). Come election time, I did a straw poll of voting choices, and 5 out of the 7 people I asked admitted to voting Liberal, even though they really supported the NDP, BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF THE CONSERVATIVES GAINING POWER. All their actual support for the NDP, and increased enthusiasm for Layeton, was not enough to overpower their absolute terror of the prospect of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Notwithstanding that the PC candidate in Victoria was a total non-entity. Notwithstanding anything.

(2)

quote:
BriJonNDP wrote:

...apparently the majority of the people posting on this site are the same type of New Democrats who voted for Steve Orcherton during the BCNDP leadership convention, and who think that Jack Layton doesn't make a complete fool of himself nearly everytime he opens his mouth.



Please, please tell me this is not an attempt at equating Steve Orcherton with Jack Layton in some backhanded fashion.

From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
somersol
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posted 06 January 2005 11:11 PM      Profile for somersol   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
this is a first post.
i put together an NDP discussion site last month, thinking there was maybe a lack of such a thing out there - this thread is incredible. diverse, combative, inquisitive. and big.

From: ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
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Babbler # 5141

posted 07 January 2005 02:33 AM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Come election time, I did a straw poll of voting choices, and 5 out of the 7 people I asked admitted to voting Liberal, even though they really supported the NDP, BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF THE CONSERVATIVES GAINING POWER.

Yeah, that was a phenomenon of strategic voting that needs to be beaten back. For example, these facts are especially irritating.

Environics' election day poll in Oshawa

7. Would you describe yourself as someone who seriously considered voting New Democrat but are now voting Liberal because you are concerned that the Conservatives might form a government and you want to try to stop that from happening?
Yes 34%
No 64%


Election results in Oshawa

Conservative 33.2%
NDP 32.2%
Lib 30.5%

Which means that nearly 10% of the voters in Oshawa could very probably have voted NDP, giving the NDP a clear victory over the Conservative candidate, but they rather voted for the Liberal who ended in third place, splitting the left-wing vote enough to deliver a seat right into the Conservatives' hands.

Real fun. In how many other ridings the situation was the same?


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 07 January 2005 02:44 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heavily suspect it was in Victoria:

David Anderson, Lib: 20,398
David Turner, NDP: 18,093
Logan Wenham, Con: 12,708
Ariel Lade, Green: 6,807
Derek Skinner, Crackpot: 206

That was a real nail-biter for a while. I cringe to think how many times Anderson has pulled this crap here, too. He actually campaigns on that platform ("a vote for anyone other than me is a vote for the C's"). And jeez, Wenham was such a limp noodle. I hope the Cons keep running him forever.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 07 January 2005 03:52 AM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

I think it should be written into law that you, YOU, BriJonNDP, are not entitled to the same rights as other Canadians because I don't like you and therefore think you should be legally inferior to me.

Yes, I'm entitled to have that opinion. And you'd certainly be entitled to voice the opinion that I'm a bigoted piece of shit and a danger to the rights of others because of my complete lack of respect for the Charter of Rights and its values.

Just like that bigoted piece of shit Bev Desjarlais. Understand yet?

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


I tried to form a discussion by suggesting an opinion that was not very popular here. I did resort to namecalling, but I apologized and admitted it was inappropriate.

I also explained my views on Jack in a respectful manner.

The post above, however, shows a distinct lack of open-mindedness. Many of us call right-wingers very closed minded, but the treatment I've recieved in ONE F'ING day from this forum has been the most closed-minded, disrespectful junk that I've ever seen.

I tried to apologize.

I tried to explain my views.

I tried to be civil.

I like Simon a lot and I've had some very rousing discussions with him about issues that we disagree with. But some of you, many of you it seems, have resorted to taking shots at me for no good reason.

You show yourselves to be immature, closed-minded bigots. There is no other word for the people who have replied to my question posted here except to call it very bigoted.

I'm sincerely glad that most of the New Democrats I know are not like many of you. When faced with a difference of opinion, you immediately go on the offensive and attack and attack and attack until you've belittled the person into the ground.

You call me names, you change my username to "BriJonLib", and you generally act like teenagers who need to get a better handle on your puberty hormones.

It's truly sad when I can find more intelligent discussions with a member of the Alliance party than I can with members of the NDP.

So, I don't like Jack Layton. Why does that make me less of a New Democrat than any of you? At least I have an open mind, unlike many of you.

And Bev Desjarlais is entitled to her views, much like I am, and niether of us deserve to be attacked, because we're both New Democrats to the core.

I will leave this forum if you like, and you can lose the chance to have a discussion with someone whose beliefs may be different than your own.

It's up to you.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 07 January 2005 09:22 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Grant

quote:
I'll take the person who doubled our vote, who was well liked at the door by people in this very rural riding and who has a record of actually doing things.

Just a correction here, Jack's riding is about as non Rural as you can get.

BriJonNDP

We're only close minded towards sexist, racist, homophobic views, we'll even discuss them here, just don't expect us to like it. If a general view that ALL people are created equal is not held by you, then please feel free to visit here.

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: quelar ]


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 07 January 2005 09:48 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone who says that Jack can't be a world leader is a farce.

He is not as EVIL as Russia's ex-KGB and nowhere near as lacking in mental faculties as the ex-cocaine fiend to the South of us. And his campaign wasn't founded on the fact he is a relative of Ludwig von Beethvoen like ex-chancellor Shroeder.

He is a great leader and easily ranks up there as one of the better politicians that our nation has had in a while.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 07 January 2005 10:28 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
I will leave this forum if you like, and you can lose the chance to have a discussion with someone whose beliefs may be different than your own.

It's up to you.


No it's up to you. If you want to flounce out of here, it's your own choice. Lots of people of differing opinions arrive and reside here. There is no reason for us to make your decision for you.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 07 January 2005 10:39 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
Grant: Just a correction here, Jack's riding is about as non Rural as you can get.

Captain Obvious replies:

But Huron-Bruce, where GrantR was the party candidate (and the riding to which he was referring), is about as rural as you can get. In other words, people at the door in Huron-Bruce responded well to Jack.

Scott Piatkowski adds:

As for Jack's performance in the campaign:

  • He came a close second to Duceppe in the French language debate.
  • He did far better in the English debate than people give him credit for. The format was such that he did have to interrupt to be heard at all. If he hadn't, people wouldn't even have noticed that the NDP was represented (which, sorry to say, is my recollection of the debates in 1993, 1997 and 2000)
  • The homelessness comments were not a gaffe. See my article on the subject for my reasons for saying this.
  • Jack communicated our message extraordinarily well, in two (sometimes three) languages.
  • He showed tremendous energy. While Harper and Martin scheduled an average one event a day (because the less that was said by and reported about their campaigns the better), Layton was everywhere. The Friday before E-day, he was in Timmins, Sudbury, Windsor, London, Waterloo, Cambridge and Guelph, finished just before 2:00 am. He started the next day with a 7:00 am breakfast meeting in Hamilton.
  • Jack made a lot of people want to vote NDP. He didn't succeed in convincing them that they could do so with risking a big-c Conservative government (as opposed to our current small-c conservative government).
  • In spite of this, our vote increased dramatically. We won new seats in Timmins, Sault Ste. Marie, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Burnaby and Nanaimo. I would have loved to see us win in Regina and Victoria and Oshawa and Trinity-Spadina and London-Fanshawe and Western Arctic and New Westminister (I'm sounding like Howard Dean here). I was also happy to see us double our vote in Kitchener-Waterloo and get 20% in New Brunswick.

I don't mind if people criticize Jack. But they shouldn't base it on insults ("sleazeball" comes to mind), on unsubstantiated accusations, or on stuff that they just make up.

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 07 January 2005 11:00 AM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not denying what Jack Layton has done for the party.

Then again, I'm not denying what Alexa, Audrey, David and Tommy have done for the party either.

The fact is, though, and I stand by it, is that people don't look at Jack and go, "Now, there's a guy who could be Prime Minister."

Actually, most people I've talked to, some of them NDP'ers have said, "God forbid if that guy ever becomes Prime Minister."

And, if you must know, I'm a little bit upset with how the Dartmouth campaign went. Actually, I'm a lot upset, and I do feel that Jack had a bit to do with it, being leader and all.

The strategy sucked, the candidate wasn't out there enough, the treatment of volunteers was awful and all this within a riding that was held by a New Democrat at the time and which contains the provincial riding of the leader of the Nova Scotia NDP. They had Dartmouth in the bag, but they just plain dropped the ball.

They dropped the ball in Trinity-Spadina, New Westminster-Coquitlam, Western Arctic and Kenora too. There was a lot more ridings besides these five that they could have, and should have won, but didn't.

My question is...if Jack brought our party up so high in the polls, why couldn't he beat Broadbent's record of 43 seats like he said he would?

And as far as next time goes, when next time comes, it'll be much harder to oust a Liberal incumbent like Mike Savage and we don't have many potential candidates here. Of course, I'll try and seek the nomination, and I imagine my wife's uncle or niece will. Perhaps Terry Kelly will again.

I'd just like to live in a riding represented by a New Democrat, and I want the NDP to be able to get it done. It's entirely possible that the Nova Scotia NDP will win provincial government next time around, so why not bring more New Democrats into Nova Scotia?


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 07 January 2005 11:16 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
And, if you must know, I'm a little bit upset with how the Dartmouth campaign went. Actually, I'm a lot upset, and I do feel that Jack had a bit to do with it, being leader and all.

The strategy sucked, the candidate wasn't out there enough, the treatment of volunteers was awful and all this within a riding that was held by a New Democrat at the time and which contains the provincial riding of the leader of the Nova Scotia NDP. They had Dartmouth in the bag, but they just plain dropped the ball.


You have an interesting idea of what the leader is responsible for in a campaign.


quote:
Of course, I'll try and seek the nomination, and I imagine my wife's uncle or niece will. Perhaps Terry Kelly will again.

Be sure to include references to how you think the leader of the party is "a sleazeball". Let us know how much support you get.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 07 January 2005 11:22 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Captain Obvious, I stand corrected, I misunderstood.

quote:
most people I've talked to, some of them NDP'ers have said, "God forbid if that guy ever becomes Prime Minister."

Well most of the people I've talked to, some of them Conservatives have said, "God forbid if Harper ever becomes Prime Minister."
And most of the people I've talked to, some of them Liberals have said, "God forbid if Martin ever becomes Prime Minister."

quote:
They dropped the ball in Trinity-Spadina

I would like to know why you think coming within a hair of a very popular incumbent MP is considered dropping the ball. And in fact, having helped on Olivia's campaign one of the bigger concerns wasn't that she wouldn't be good at her job, but that we would be losing a strong voice on city council.

quote:
why couldn't he beat Broadbent's record of 43 seats

Look at the different political environments and then get back to us.

As for your specific riding, and the mistakes you see there, I will suggest you give them a call, TODAY, and start working on their strategy with them, you sound intelligent and sound like you want them to win, so why not give them a hand?


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 07 January 2005 11:36 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by quelar:
[QB]Grant

Just a correction here, Jack's riding is about as non Rural as you can get.

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I meant Jack was very popular at the door in MY riding. Which in Ontario at least is pretty darn rural. I was trying to point out that in what some might not consider prime Jack Layton country, rural Ontario, he was still very well received.

ooops should have read further first sorry for taking up space

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: Grant R. ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 07 January 2005 12:07 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
I'm not denying what Jack Layton has done for the party.


The fact is, though, and I stand by it, is that people don't look at Jack and go, "Now, there's a guy who could be Prime Minister."


The strategy sucked, the candidate wasn't out there enough, the treatment of volunteers was awful and all this within a riding that was held by a New Democrat at the time and which contains the provincial riding of the leader of the Nova Scotia NDP. They had Dartmouth in the bag, but they just plain dropped the ball.


Maybe not (although I disagree with your assessment), they do say that's someone I would like to be my neighbour. He speaks for me and I trust him to stand up for me. There was this guy from Shawinigan who made quite a career for himself, 3 majority governments in fact, being seen that way.


I think you have some real misperceptions, as others have pointed out, about how local campaigns get run and the connection, authority and direct input the central campaign has.
If I might be so bold as offer an observation gained from farming. Sometimes, you do everything right, you plant your crop in good weather, the soil is near perfect, but the rain never comes, or it rains too much, or a whole host of things go wrong. It's no ones fault it's just the way it goes. What started to look like it would be a near perfect crop is in ruins. The only thing left then is to plough it under and use it for fertilizer for it will improve the soil and make the next crop even stronger.
Other times you can do everything wrong, plant late, break equipment, you name it, but the conditions are forgiving and you get a bumper crop.
Elections are like that too. Better to acknowledge what worked, what didn't and make improvements for next time. With some minor problems, which show up in every campaign for every party, this was a good campaign. Had a handful of votes broke differently in a few more ridings who knows what might have happened.

Why not blame Paul Martin and the media that ran over and over his every pronouncment about wasting your vote if you voted NDP. Had he shut up he might have had a stable minority backed by a strong NDP, like Lester B. A little case in point, if you think their attack ads about Harper were aimed at Conservative voters you are niave they were aimed at one voting block alone, ours. So if you don't like the results blame Paul Martin and the millionaire donors to the Liberals not Jack Layton

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: Grant R. ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 07 January 2005 12:08 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:

Be sure to include references to how you think the leader of the party is "a sleazeball". Let us know how much support you get.



So, I apologized for calling Jack a sleazebag, and yet you still attack me for it.

Jesus Christ, some of you people are denser than a stale fruitcake!

Instead of attacking me, a New Democrat, for my beliefs, why not try having a discussion with me?

I'm slowly beginning to understand who on this forum I should be reading and who I should just ignore.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 07 January 2005 12:12 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grant R.:

I think you have some real misperceptions, as others have pointed out, about how local campaigns get run and the connection, authority and direct input the central campaign has.
If I might be so bold as offer an observation gained from farming. Sometimes, you do everything right, you plant your crop in good weather, the soil is near perfect, but the rain never comes, or it rains too much, or a whole host of things go wrong. It's no ones fault it's just the way it goes. What started to look like it would be a near perfect crop is in ruins. The only thing left then is to plough it under and use it for fertilizer for it will improve the soil and make the next crop even stronger.
Other times you can do everything wrong, plant late, break equipment, you name it, but the conditions are forgiving and you get a bumper crop.
Elections are like that too. Better to acknowledge what worked, what didn't and make improvements for next time. With some minor problems, which show up in every campaign for every party, this was a good campaign. Had a handful of votes broke differently in a few more ridings who knows what might have happened.

Why not blame Paul Martin and the media that ran over and over his every pronouncment about wasting your vote if you voted NDP. Had he shut up he might have had a stable minority backed by a strong NDP, like Lester B. A little case in point, if you think their attack ads about Harper were aimed at Conservative voters you are niave they were aimed at one voting block alone, ours. So if you don't like the results blame Paul Martin and the millionaire donors to the Liberals not Jack Layton



I don't have any misperceptions about how a campaign is run, because I've worked on two campaigns. One candidate won, the other candidate lost, and I have a good idea why in both cases.

I do appreciate, however, the fact that you took the time to write what you did to me, instead of calling me a dumbass or something. I appreciate intelligent criticism, because I am an aspiring politican and I want to learn as much as I can.

And I can't and won't learn from people who make snide, sarcastic comments insulting my intelligence.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
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posted 07 January 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:

As for your specific riding, and the mistakes you see there, I will suggest you give them a call, TODAY, and start working on their strategy with them, you sound intelligent and sound like you want them to win, so why not give them a hand?

I have, and I will. I may not be the most experienced candidate, but I do believe that, if elected, I would learn quickly what it takes to be a good Member of Parliament. I'm a New Democrat who is firm in my beliefs and I'm going to run for the nomination and, even if I lose, I'm going to try and make a difference.

Next time around, I don't want Mike Savage to walk away with it.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 07 January 2005 12:25 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, I apologized for calling Jack a sleazebag, and yet you still attack me for it.

Why not. You're still attacking Jack for his comments on homelessness. And, for the record, I thought your apology seemed pretty half-hearted.

quote:
Instead of attacking me, a New Democrat, for my beliefs, why not try having a discussion with me?

Did you read my previous post (the one before the one that you quoted)? At all?

quote:
And I can't and won't learn from people who make snide, sarcastic comments insulting my intelligence.

I haven't made any comments about your intelligence. I've responded to what you've written.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 07 January 2005 12:31 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can see leaving a party you don't like out of protest. But joining ANOTHER? That makes no jeezly sense. What was the motivation there?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 07 January 2005 12:39 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by verbatim:
(1) When the NDP elected Layton to be the leader, a number of people I know were really excited. They thought Layton was a really good change for the NDP (many of them not knowing much about Alexa, for various reasons). I even attended a sort of party about the whole thing (well, it was one of several things being celebrated). Come election time, I did a straw poll of voting choices, and 5 out of the 7 people I asked admitted to voting Liberal, even though they really supported the NDP, BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF THE CONSERVATIVES GAINING POWER. All their actual support for the NDP, and increased enthusiasm for Layeton, was not enough to overpower their absolute terror of the prospect of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Notwithstanding that the PC candidate in Victoria was a total non-entity. Notwithstanding anything.


I can sympathize with what you are saying, but only up to a point. The Canadian Election Study didn't find a whole lot of last minute strategic voting per se.

Perhaps the individuals you are describing had at no time planned to vote NDP. In that case, their remarks about liking Layton or NDP policies are more likely an attempt to bring you over to the Liberals than anything else.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 07 January 2005 01:33 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:


I don't have any misperceptions about how a campaign is run, because I've worked on two campaigns. One candidate won, the other candidate lost, and I have a good idea why in both cases.


Not to be snide, but I've worked on campaigns in various roles since I was 13, (which was just after rocks were invented), been a candidate twice and I'm still working out the best way to run a campaign. What works once, may not work twice. What didn't work two elections ago is suddenly the absolute right thing. What worked last week is suddenly creating a huge problem. Camapigns are very ephemeral.
If you truly want to learn, learn this- you don't have all the answers, no one does. In a campaign often the least important person is the candidate. You can lose badly no matter how great the candidate and you can win big with a very weak one, but try winning without a good campaign team. If you are truly an aspiring politician, listen to others and develop a team to work with you, even if you disagree on some issues with them.
If the campaign was sooo bad locally, maybe you should ask what you did to make it better first, before you critize those, like Jack- whether you agree with his leadership or not, who did their job and did it well.
If you want to take a class on Bad Election Planning 101 review the Liberal campaign. They won government in spite of themselves. Why would you join them if you thought the NDP campaign was so bad. That is more than a little inconsistent.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7825

posted 07 January 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra trower williams:
I can see leaving a party you don't like out of protest. But joining ANOTHER? That makes no jeezly sense. What was the motivation there?

The motivation was that I felt that, in the Liberals, I could express my leftist views without having to put up with the NDP BS.

But when I joined the Liberals, I was suddenly approached by all of these Liberals who were saying very negative things about the NDP. Then I thought about it more and realized that, while the Liberals would allow me to express my views, they also have people in the party who are way too right-wing for me, yet are still Liberal. People like Tom Wappel. I just didn't feel right.

And so, I came back to the NDP. After all, the NDP will be around long after Jack Layton is gone. And I'm a New Democrat, no matter what happens, so I can't deny my calling.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7825

posted 07 January 2005 01:41 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:

I haven't made any comments about your intelligence. I've responded to what you've written.


Oh, get off of it! I apologized and I meant it, so stop being a dick and just lay off!

And I may not know all there is to know about working on a campaign, but I know more than someone who hasn't worked on one at all. And I'm learning. I'll learn more when I'm a candidate, I expect, and keep learning as I go.

I'm still young and have a lot to learn, and I'll keep learning. Or I'll try anyway, if so-called "insiders" will just lay off and stop insulting me.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 07 January 2005 01:58 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:

Oh, get off of it! I apologized and I meant it, so stop being a dick and just lay off!

...if so-called "insiders" will just lay off and stop insulting me.


No one has 'attacked you', not really. Many have questioned your statements some bluntly, others a little less so.
Believe me if you want to be a candidate this is tame and you need to defend yourself without being so defense. (And boy can that be hard sometimes)
Here is the kind of thing you can expect from your friends in the Liberal party, who through my experice are always the dirtiest campaigners, far worse than any of the other parties. In the town where my wife and I work, are well known and have many friends, Liberal campaigners were going door to door talking about our marriage (made up stories of course) and then tying it to same-sex marriage. The next campaign they did it to the Conservatives.
That is what it can mean to be a candidate.

This is not attacking, nor even insulting. Tough minded questioning yes, but not the rest.


Oh and it's also a lesson that words said in the heat of the moment can come back and bite you on the ass no matter how many times you apologize, or how much you regret it. Sort of like being married, or a parent.

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: Grant R. ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 07 January 2005 02:00 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grant R.:
In the town where my wife and I work, are well known and have many friends, Liberal campaigners were going door to door talking about our marriage (made up stories of course) and then tying it to same-sex marriage.

You mean gay marriage has already ruined your marriage too!?!


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
And I'm a New Democrat, no matter what happens, so I can't deny my calling.

Try.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 07 January 2005 02:06 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:

You mean gay marriage has already ruined your marriage too!?!



From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4348

posted 07 January 2005 02:40 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I hate Jack Layton with a passion. I think he's a sleezebag and I actually quit the NDP and joined the Liberals earlier this year because of his embarrasing performance since the election

quote:
I've read a lot of hatred here regarding Bev Desjarlais just because she's opposed to same-sex marriage. Why? Isn't she entitled to her opinion? Or has the freedom of expression been left out of the latest revision of the NDP Constitution.

quote:
You people are the same types of jackasses, like the two co-chairs of the BCNDP, who complain that the NDP isn't left enough,

quote:
You show yourselves to be immature, closed-minded bigots

quote:
Jesus Christ, some of you people are denser than a stale fruitcake!

quote:
so stop being a dick and just lay off!

These are your responses to being challenged on your attack of the leader of the party you're supposed to be supporting? Out of 14 posts you engage in insults and namecalling in 8 of them and some of the others are borderline. If you don't change your response to debate you will never be elected as a progressive. Certain members of Harper's club may be able to get away with that kind of approach but not if you want to represent the left, ( just my opinion of course) I doubt that you could even come close to winning a nomination.


From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
will you guys lay off Brian

its responces like this that made me prefer FD to Babble for quite a while

not everyone is in love with the NDP or Jack Layton you know.

reminds me of the reasons why I left the party

I thought progressives were susposed to be tolerant


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 02:45 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
NOT OF BIGOTRY.

NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

(Why does this constantly have to be explained to people who claim to be intelligent?)


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 02:48 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
do you know Brian?
have you talked to Brian?
do you have Brian on your MSN?
do you, like simon and I do, chat with Brian on other forums?

no

you see one post, dont like it, so you judge him to be a bigot.

judge, judge, judge. once you've made up your mind that's the end of the story.
THATS why I left your stupid little party, I couldent take these oh-so-goodie-goodie socialists and their judgemental attidude towards anything that wasent perfect in their eyes.

frankly, its no wonder why I post here so rarly, everything anyone says gets a personal insult

"hey, I disagree with this one issue"
"well your a f***ing troll, you dont deserve to be human, go away and never come back"

jesus christ.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569

posted 07 January 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Budd Campbell:
I can sympathize with what you are saying, but only up to a point. The Canadian Election Study didn't find a whole lot of last minute strategic voting per se.

Perhaps the individuals you are describing had at no time planned to vote NDP. In that case, their remarks about liking Layton or NDP policies are more likely an attempt to bring you over to the Liberals than anything else.



Well, none of these people are what I would call "party faithful" -- they usually decide who to vote for in the few months running up to an election. I doubt any of them were trying to bring me over to anyone -- they know I am a predictable leftist, and would be hard pressed indeed to vote for the Liberals, even if the Conservate candidate in my riding wasn't an obvious ass. I also doubt that they were choosing to vote strategically at the last minute -- they generally consider the NDP platform over the Liberal platform, but their combination of cowardice and cynicism keeps them voting Liberal. My experience with all of this has absolutely convinced me that we need to ditch the FPTP voting system in Canada.

From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 07 January 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by speechpoet:
Not to worry, Budd. It's always humbling to see a real professional at work.

BriJonNDP claims to be a customer service representative. I guess that's today's jargon for the guy at the complaints desk, politely telling people "tough luck". But I really wouldn't have thought that he would be trained up to the level he seems to be at, where his baiting skills are second to none.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
so secure in yourself that you have to insult others?
From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 07 January 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pellaken1:
do you know Brian?

judge, judge, judge. once you've made up your mind that's the end of the story.
THATS why I left your stupid little party, I couldent take these oh-so-goodie-goodie socialists and their judgemental attidude towards anything that wasent perfect in their eyes.



Make sure you hand in your health card on the way out the door.

From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pellaken1:
you see one post, dont like it, so you judge him to be a bigot.

I see one post criticizing us for not accepting bigotry as just another opinion. How many do I need to see to call that the garbage it is?

It's very simple: anyone who doesn't respect me as an EQUAL human being with EQUAL rights to heterosexuals gets nothing from me, not even the second-class citizenship they so graciously (grudgingly) offer me. They get nothing. No respect at all.

I accept nothing less than equality. And I absolutely DO NOT ACCEPT anyone's so-called "right" to offer me less. Not even for discussion.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 07 January 2005 03:04 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pellaken1:
so secure in yourself that you have to insult others?

You reap what you sow. Start out insulting and you'll likley get it back.

Where I come from 'jackass' and 'sleazebag' are not considered terms of endearment, (even though my wife has tried to convince me otherwise ), maybe it is at your house?


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7825

posted 07 January 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is not about my ability as a politician.

This is about me posting on a site frequented by members of my own party and being insulted for it.

If Stephen Harper or Paul Martin attack my views, then I can stand up and defend the NDP. But when the NDP attack me, what good does that serve?

A lot of people don't like Jack Layton, I'll have you know, and a lot of what some of you are saying to me isn't constructive criticism at all; its just plain rude.

I shouldn't have called Jack Layton a sleazebag, but I still don't like him.

And frankly, I don't retract the fact that I said a lot of you are bigots. I'm not looking for a fight, people. I just came here looking to associate with some people from my own party, and instead I get people telling me to go back to the Liberals!

Well, I don't want to go back to the Liberals! I'm a New Democrat and I will always fight for the things that New Democrats fight for!

Why not save your insults and putdowns for the Liberals and Conservatives?

We need to build the NDP and include people who have views that are somewhat different.

There are people in the NDP who are opposed to abortion, gay marriage, 100% public health care and unions.

There are people in the NDP who believe that tax cuts are a good thing.

There are people in the NDP of all sorts of views, who still consider themselves New Democrats. And we need to listen to them, instead of attacking them for their divergent views.

I'm a proud member of the NDP, regardless of the fact that I don't like Jack Layton and, frankly, I don't seem to get along with many of you.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I give the same respect to a liberal, as I do to a NDPer, to a tory, to a CHPer, to a communist.

I dont judge people.


to Grant, I happen to beleive in 2-teired healthcare, and disagree with my own party's stance on the issue.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:06 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grant R.:

You reap what you sow. Start out insulting and you'll likley get it back.

Where I come from 'jackass' and 'sleazebag' are not considered terms of endearment, (even though my wife has tried to convince me otherwise ), maybe it is at your house?


your not Jack Layton


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7825

posted 07 January 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, you know what? I quit. You win.

I don't need to stay here and be insulted.

I shouldn't have to defend myself from people who are supposed to be fellow New Democrats.

I don't need Simon and Pellaken to come here and defend me.

I'm not going to quit the NDP over this little insult-fest, because I know that most New Democrats are not as closed-minded and bigoted as you people are.

If you don't want to hear my views, then that's fine.


From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:11 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd say "hope your happy" but you guys are likely so blinded that you are.
From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
It's not bigoted to refuse to accept the bigotry of those opposed to equality.

It's called DECENCY.

You might try looking into it. Some opinions are just not acceptable to decent people because they are ugly and hate-filled.

Should you ever become a decent person you'll understand that.

Frankly, if it wasn't for the lack of David Orchard love, I could swear this was DOS.

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hitler used "decency" to excuse his intolerance too
From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:13 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
and if treating humans like humans means I'm indecent, then I'll be indecent.
From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 07 January 2005 03:14 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pellaken1:

your not Jack Layton


No I have a full beard.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and if treating humans like humans means I'm indecent, then I'll be indecent.

Unless they're queer, in which case they should count themselves as lucky for whatever crumbs they get, right? Someone's gonna tell me I deserve fewer rights and I should just smile and take it, right?

Fuck you.

And hey, weren't the Jews being intolerant for not respecting Hitler's views?

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
BriJonNDP
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7825

posted 07 January 2005 03:17 PM      Profile for BriJonNDP     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And all because I said that Bev Desjarlais is entitled to her opinion...
From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never said that gay people should have fewer rights. I told a group of christians they were going to hell because they did not think that gays should be allowed to marry. if there was a war over it, I'd voulenteer to go and die so that gays could marry. dont call me anti-gay.

that being said

I have friends who think that gays are evil, but they are still my friends. I respect ALL people. REGARDLESS of their views. I respect you (even thought I disagree with you very mugh right now) just as much as I respect Neal, my friend who thinks that Gayness is a left-wing conspricy.

anyway

I'm going to go away before this gets out of hand. I think you guys need some cooldown time.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5141

posted 07 January 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shame on you all. I know some past new democrats who've denounced Jack on this site have been very offensive, but there was no need for such an hostile welcoming committee.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a self-encouragement forum where we don't accept differing opinions. So ease up on the "troll" and "bigot" accusations, and let's use a little of that presumption of innocence and consider newcomers as serious people until proof of the contrary rather than as troll until proof of the contrary.

This is turning in a left-wing Free Dominion.


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 07 January 2005 03:22 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
Okay, you know what? I quit. You win.

I don't need to stay here and be insulted.

I shouldn't have to defend myself from people who are supposed to be fellow New Democrats.


Whose nicer to you when you disagree, strangers or your family. Usually strangers. Accept that maybe you didn't handle things well. And try and listen to what is actually being said to you. You might find that there are some valuable lessons there for you. No one questioned your right to dislike Jack. It was only pointed out that maybe your reasoning wasn't exactly spot on.

I hope you continue to try and grow and learn about discourse. I'm new to Babble and have been zinged by a few people. I reflected on what was said and tried to understand why. I think I learned something. Just becuase they disagreed with me or called me on something didn't make them bigots, but it made me examine my own assumptions. Don't know they were 100 % right, but I hold no ill will for questioning me. Taking your stick, puck and net and going home doesn't bode well for your stated goals.

[ 07 January 2005: Message edited by: Grant R. ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 03:22 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
And all because I said that Bev Desjarlais is entitled to her opinion...

And her opinion is that gays are entitled to fewer rights. That's bigotry and no, we don't have to tolerate it. And if you ARE tolerant of bigotry, don't expect many people to be tolerant of you either.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:26 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

And her opinion is that gays are entitled to fewer rights. That's bigotry and no, we don't have to tolerate it. And if you ARE tolerant of bigotry, don't expect many people to be tolerant of you either.


so in other words, if your too tolerant, then you dont deserve tolerance from those who think you are too tolerant?

I have a number of gay friends; David, Zack, Matt, Myke, and a number of anti-gay friends; Neal and Chris. I respect them all equally. I respect anyone, however biggoted. If Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, and Kim Jong Il were all infront of me, I'd say "hi" to each of them, and shake their hands, just as though it were the Pope, Jesus, Muhammed, and Sidharta Guatama - the Buddah.

all humans deserve respect. even those who want to destryo your life, or worse yet, kill you. I respect Bin Ladn. dont like him. but I wouldent spit in him if he were infront of me.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 07 January 2005 03:26 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by simonvallee:
Shame on you all...

I just reviewed the early part of the thread and I didn't see any serious insulting going on until our new member wrote this:

quote:
You people are the same types of jackasses...

As far as I can tell, the other participants are jackasses because they don't agree with BriJonNDP's opinion of Jack Layton and have some different ideas about the NDP.

Shame on who?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:31 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see tonnes of sarcastic insults in the early part of the thread

er
I mean


oh no, I agree with you 100% compleatly fully. no one, no one AT ALL, was being sarcastic in the early part of this thread, no one AT ALL deserved to be called a jackass for being so annoying.

see what I mean
annoying, aint it?


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 January 2005 03:31 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pellaken1:
all humans deserve respect. even those who want to destryo your life, or worse yet, kill you.

Um, no. Brion is demanding respect for their VIEWS, not for their humanity. Fuck him.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 07 January 2005 03:34 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I respect everyone's views

note the irrationally high mention I made of christians who think I'm going to hell. I think they are going to hell. but I respect their views regardless, even though its the #1 thing I cant stand, and I'd even say I'm intolerant of. I respect them nontheless.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 07 January 2005 03:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh bullshit. And I used to be a narrow minded hick from N. Ontario who flip-flopped between voting liberal and conservative all my life. Then I realized there was no diff between the two old line parties that receive funding from big banks and corporations alike.

A cat is a cat, and I happen to know I'm a mouse. I refuse to vote for cats, blue ones or red ones, senor.

Arrriba!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 January 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Funny thing is, there have been MANY discussions by MANY of the people here, leading into the NDP leadership campaign, after, during the election, and after about Jack and whether we like him or not.

Face it, this thread got off poorly on POST 5 when SOMEONE, not mentioning any names called Jack, someone whom he has never met, a "sleezebag".

I know the apology has been laid on the table, but you have no right to be angry at others defending Jack against a statement like this from someone who bails on their so called "principles" the minute they don't like the guy in charge.

As for statements like

quote:
I have friends who think that gays are evil

and
quote:
I respect them all equally. I respect anyone, however biggoted.

I would say, maybe it's time too look at "accceptability" and ask yourself if you would still be friends with someone who was a child molester, a wife beater, or a murderer. You may not see it as the same thing, but someone who who think that gays are "evil" will only to continue to think that is acceptable if they don't suddenly find themselves alone due to their anachronistic views.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kinetix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5296

posted 07 January 2005 08:03 PM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I stopped being friends with my anti-gay friends. They're not part of my life any more. Same thing with any former friends that are anti-jew, anti-black, anti-you name it.

There are plenty of friendly people who aren't racist/homophobic/etc and I'd rather be friends with them instead.


From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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Babbler # 5474

posted 08 January 2005 04:41 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:

You call me names, you change my username to "BriJonLib", and you generally act like teenagers who need to get a better handle on your puberty hormones.

It's truly sad when I can find more intelligent discussions with a member of the Alliance party than I can with members of the NDP.


We are having a discussion with you it’s just that you’re beliefs are part of the discussion since you disclosed them as reasons for your actions.

Just a hint it's hard to take you seriously because you're a flake.

You don't like Jack Layton so you joined the Liberal Party (!?!) -- even though the Liberal Party doesn't share the same values as you?

Well that's seems flaky.

It seems ill thought out for someone who has such (allegedly) deeply held beliefs.

If you had to join an organization with similar values as the NDP, but don't like Layton and wanted to leave the NDP, why not join a non-partisan ngo or something? This is because Paul Martin's Liberal Party does not hold the same values as the NDP.

Why not stay in the political sphere but work on something non-partisan like approving, or opposing, the citizen's assembly recommendation on electoral reform?

You on the other hand join the Liberal Party and then come on this site (not officially NDP linked but yes there are a lot of dippers on it -- then again it really spans the spectrum) and then claim bias. Well gee a message board being biased? That's just such a surprising thought. Unlike the FoxNewses of the world babble doesn’t claim to be ‘fair and balanced’ -- it’s ‘bias’ is out there for all to see. It’s just that people are challenged on their assumptions but some in the “babble majority“ will be challenged too.

FWIW RealityBites isn’t a member of the NDP from what I remember him saying.

[ 08 January 2005: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
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Babbler # 7028

posted 08 January 2005 10:06 AM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
Funny thing is, there have been MANY discussions by MANY of the people here, leading into the NDP leadership campaign, after, during the election, and after about Jack and whether we like him or not.

Face it, this thread got off poorly on POST 5 when SOMEONE, not mentioning any names called Jack, someone whom he has never met, a "sleezebag".

I know the apology has been laid on the table, but you have no right to be angry at others defending Jack against a statement like this from someone who bails on their so called "principles" the minute they don't like the guy in charge.

As for statements like

I would say, maybe it's time too look at "accceptability" and ask yourself if you would still be friends with someone who was a child molester, a wife beater, or a murderer. You may not see it as the same thing, but someone who who think that gays are "evil" will only to continue to think that is acceptable if they don't suddenly find themselves alone due to their anachronistic views.


last time I talked to Neal was 8 weeks ago, and Chris, 3 weeks ago.

Last time I talked to David was 4 days ago, Kent, yesterday, Myke, Yesterday, and Matt, 2 days ago.

I think I make my point

if I had a friend who did kill someone, I'm not going to utterly cut them out of my life. I still consider Dan a friend, even though it's been 3 moths since I've spoken to him. Same goes for Micheal, even though it's been 3 and a half years. I'd never become friends with someone I knew was a murderer, but if someone I already knew was, then so be it. My roomate is on parole, nearly killed somoene drunk driving. that does not change my opinion of him, he's still me friend.

I dont even see how you can say that I'm wront because I accept all humans, seems to me that you are judging who's worthy and who's not, and no matter what guidebook you use, that's just as bad as anyone else to does it, even homophobes.

Everyone has a different value rule book. I understand that this just might be yours, but I must disagree. All people deserve our respect. I hate no one, nor will I ever.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 08 January 2005 10:57 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pellaken1:
I respect everyone's views

I hope you and your pals Hitler and Bin Laden spend many fine evenings together.

Me, I have a moral backbone and don't hide a complete lack of integrity and morality behind feel-good slogans.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 08 January 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
FWIW RealityBites isn’t a member of the NDP from what I remember him saying.

No I'm not. I don't have loyalty to a party -- although there has been only one federal election (2000) and one provincial election (2003) in which I haven't voted NDP.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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Babbler # 2739

posted 08 January 2005 03:58 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think I make my point

To be completely honest reciting names of people I don't know and the last time you saw them says absolutely nothing to me...was there actually a point in there somewhere?

quote:
All people deserve our respect.

No, no they don't. Not all people deserve my respect. Respect is something that is EARNED, not given, and ifyou're a dickhead that coddles homophobes, drunk drivers, child molestors or suicide bombers then you are now complicit in those crimes.

Everyone has a RIGHT to say and believe what they want, this is protected under our charter, and should be protected, but everyone does not have a right to ask on those beliefs. Hate is unacceptable and you accepting gay haters into your life you are encouraging that view.

quote:
I hate no one, nor will I ever

I never said I hated anyone, I said I don't tolerate bigots, and racists. Nor should anyone else.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brett Mann
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Babbler # 6441

posted 09 January 2005 01:15 PM      Profile for Brett Mann        Edit/Delete Post
Interesting thread. Beyond Jack Layton's leadership abilities, a number of other issues are being raised, each worthy of its own discussion thread.

Are political views and values synonymous with one's worth as a person, or is it possible that some right-wingers are better people-more honest, brave, generous, and so forth- than some leftists?

Does honouring the human in everyone, even our opponents, preclude us from making moral judgements and acting accordingly? (To do good to the evil can be the equivalent of doing evil to the good - Sufi saying)

Has a kind of post-modern, relativist, deconstructionist, anti-judgement intellectual environment undermined the left's capacity for legitimate moral discrimination and outrage?

Is it necessary that all members of Canadian political parties refrain from criticizing their own leaders? Is this a healthy or destructive practice?

What is the most useful way to deal with folks like those who populate Free Dominion? Constant attack mode, or search for areas of commonality in hopes of building confidence and trust which might bleed into more contentious debates?

I chuckled when a very conservative friend of mine (more a neo-con fundamentalist I'm afraid - no longer a real friend to me because of his support for the Bush regime- I broke contact) described Jack Layton as a "forty gallon drum of lanolin" - but Jack's toughness on a lot of issues since the election has convinced me that although he may be smooth, he's far from spineless. Does anyone wish to start a fresh thread on any of the questions I mention? Should I?


From: Prince Edward County ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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Babbler # 7050

posted 09 January 2005 01:35 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Internal criticizing is always good, it allows the leadership of anything to understand the pulse of what they lead. Questioning and doubting, will often lead to answers and reassurance if you've got a strong leader like Jack.
From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 09 January 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Looney I think you should start a new thread on those issues because they are very poignent political cononundrums.

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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Babbler # 5052

posted 09 January 2005 09:28 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've never found a huge connection between peoples political beliefs and how intelligent or nice they are -except perhaps nazi bigots, who seem to be every bit as creepy in person as their beliefs. I'd like to see another thread on this subject.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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Babbler # 5052

posted 09 January 2005 09:43 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BriJonNDP:
Okay, you know what? I quit. You win.

I don't need to stay here and be insulted.

I shouldn't have to defend myself from people who are supposed to be fellow New Democrats.

I don't need Simon and Pellaken to come here and defend me.

I'm not going to quit the NDP over this little insult-fest, because I know that most New Democrats are not as closed-minded and bigoted as you people are.

If you don't want to hear my views, then that's fine.



Don't take it so personally BriJOnNDP. Things get a bit over-heated here at times but there's always lots of room for differing opinions, even if some members don't like it. Others have expressed similar views on Layton in similar ways (looking like a 'used car salesmen' being one of them) though I'm one who's personally gone the other way. I though he was too slick at first too and voted for 4 other leadership candidates ahead of him, but I like the general track he's decided on more and more, so let's give Jack a few more years to prove himself. Broadbent was also seen as a 'compromise' lightweight when he was first elected leader; first impressions are often wrong. Stick around awhile longer yourself.

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
O R Rat
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7870

posted 10 January 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for O R Rat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
back to the topic
I don't like Jack because he will never win more than 19 seats for us. He wants to get votes from people who are PC and Green- not from the workin' class.
Winning comes from organizing the working class not the bleeding hearts in the privliged class.

From: dund ass | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 10 January 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
How do you define the working class? I really can't think of anyone who defines themself that way.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 10 January 2005 05:35 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What makes you think that Jack Layton is not interested in "working class" votes? I am sure that he is. But if he were to go after only Canadians who self-identify as "working class", I can assure you that he would get far fewer than 19 seats.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Being
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Babbler # 7768

posted 10 January 2005 05:59 PM      Profile for Being   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
A *lot* of conservatives self-identify as working-class and as taxpayers. Losing this vote to the Right has been a problem for left-wing parties everywhere.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 10 January 2005 06:08 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Those voters also identify with some of the most unpalatable conservative policies.

The NDP has always been a party of social justice, not just a party of working people.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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Babbler # 7019

posted 11 January 2005 12:24 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
Being
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A *lot* of conservatives self-identify as working-class and as taxpayers. Losing this vote to the Right has been a problem for left-wing parties everywhere.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RealityBites
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those voters also identify with some of the most unpalatable conservative policies.
The NDP has always been a party of social justice, not just a party of working people.


I think both these observations are correct, therein lying the problem, especially in BC and Alberta since 1993.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 11 January 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Alberta voting seems to be so unified that if a party can't get more than 50% it doesn't really matter. I think until/unless proportional representation comes in, Alberta is pretty much a lost cause for the NDP federally.

For BC, with "Reform" becoming "Conservative" there was certainly a trend towards the NDP last June, with the vote more than doubling, the Liberals staying steady and the Conservatives down a whopping 13 points from CA.

Granted that's not as high as historical pre-1993 levels, but it's by far the best result seen since Reform came on the scene.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Liberaler
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posted 11 January 2005 01:39 PM      Profile for Liberaler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am a Liberal supporter Hence my name. Any ways over the last few years the NDP has never had a strong leader. I like what the NDP fights for but the leaders haven't been what I expected. From Alexa McDounghna (Sorry if I spelled her last name wrong) and now Jack Layton. I find Layton a loud mouth and arrogant. The last good leader the NDP had was in my opinion Ed Broadbent.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Liberaler ]


From: Toronto Ontario | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
O R Rat
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7870

posted 11 January 2005 02:08 PM      Profile for O R Rat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok let me explain myself

Look at Toronto in th 04 election. What were our priority ridings (Trinity Spadina & East York).
Both ridings should be a walk with any decent candidate. They are both held provincialy. But when you look at why we win these seats (or lose them Olivia) it is because of social justice issues and not working class issues. Jack beet Mills in Riverdale (there are millionaire hippies there) not in the the low income parts of the riding (eastview, donlands).
My point is that Jack is fine and dandy with having the the Party solidify around social justice issues only. Just because someone is PC in Riverdale doesn't make them left in my books.

Meanwhile, Jack takes us further down the road of completely forgetting about what I believe should be our base. The sprwaling apartment complexes in north Toronto (Jane Finch) come to mind. If you go there and ask people about Layton, they will tell you they don't like the guy. They, Torontonians, can't relate to him. They don't care about social justice issues. Not because the are bad people, they just have their own problems.
Its the lack of vision for getting these votes that bothers me. We should be there winning battles with working class people. Eventually, if we do that, we will win those seats. But not with rhetoric about "green prosporous societies"


From: dund ass | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
somersol
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Babbler # 7836

posted 11 January 2005 02:55 PM      Profile for somersol   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The NDP will have to spread it arms wide in the next few years. This doesn’t mean adapting objectionable policy or rebranding (people know when a gift has been re-wrapped). But the definition of membership will have to grow. These invariable battles for ownership of the party are damaging: Is it the party of labour; is it the party of liberal intellectuals; is it the party of activists; is it the party of youth. These constituencies may enter into competition with one another by choice, but the Party has to materialize for all if it is to form government. It’s not just about nominal overtures either – it’s about the routine engagement of diverse groups.
From: ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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Babbler # 5594

posted 11 January 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Liberaler:
I am a Liberal supporter Hence my name. Any ways over the last few years the NDP has never had a strong leader. I like what the NDP fights for but the leaders haven't been what I expected. From Alexa McDounghna (Sorry if I spelled her last name wrong) and now Jack Layton. I find Layton a loud mouth and arrogant. The last good leader the NDP had was in my opinion Ed Broadbent.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Liberaler ]


That'd be Alexa McDonough, Libraler. And that's ok because us NDP'ers have tended to view all Liberal leaders as weak and ineffective lap dogs for the banking and corporate elite over the years. The last good leader the Liberals have had was... Sorry, can't think of any.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 11 January 2005 03:23 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by O R Rat:
Ok let me explain myself

Look at Toronto in th 04 election. What were our priority ridings (Trinity Spadina & East York).
Both ridings should be a walk with any decent candidate. They are both held provincialy. But when you look at why we win these seats (or lose them Olivia) it is because of social justice issues and not working class issues.


Olivia actually got over 3000 votes more than Ianno did provincially. The Liberal got 10 thousand more though.

Since 93 the story of Toronto federally has been simple -- keep the Reform extremists out of government. That the NDP made as many inroads as it did in face of the threat of a Harper government, and increased its share of the vote as much as it did, is no small achievement.

What exactly are the working-class issues you think the NDP should be concentrating on? What issues do you think should be de-emphasized or dropped entirely? Many of the problems that face Jane-Finch are wholly provincial or municipal in nature.

There is the danger, you know, of losing the NDP's current support without gaining any "working class" support.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 11 January 2005 04:05 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
The last good leader the Liberals have had was... Sorry, can't think of any.

I was thinking the same thing.

Hmmm. George Brown, perhaps?

Or, if you mean "good" as in "good for the other parties", how about Paul Martin and John Turner?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 11 January 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or, if you mean "good" as in "good for the other parties", how about ... John Turner?

We're talking about good leaders, not great leaders.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 11 January 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
Alberta voting seems to be so unified that if a party can't get more than 50% it doesn't really matter. I think until/unless proportional representation comes in, Alberta is pretty much a lost cause for the NDP federally.

For BC, with "Reform" becoming "Conservative" there was certainly a trend towards the NDP last June, with the vote more than doubling, the Liberals staying steady and the Conservatives down a whopping 13 points from CA.


In the 1988 Federal Election an NDP MP was elected from the Edmonton area, Ross Harvey:

Ross Harvey

In B.C. it would be a mistake to assume that all or even most of the recovery in the Federal NDP vote had to do with Federal political developments on the right. Rather, the end of the NDP's provincial reign, which was not universally popular even with normally NDP voters, and the presence of the Gordon Campbell Liberal Govt in Victoria were probably more important factors.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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Babbler # 2

posted 11 January 2005 05:46 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Too long!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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