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Author Topic: Bev Desjarlais (Discontinued...)
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 14 December 2004 11:19 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's pick up the discussion from over here.
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Burns
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posted 14 December 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for Burns   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Let's chase out anyone who isn't in fabor of gay marriage!"

"No, we should only chase out some!"

"The Holocaust was a serious thing."

"Why won't you admit the NDP is homophobic?"

"Dagmar don't be ridiculous."

There. I think that sums up the "discussion" thus far.


From: ... is everything. Location! Location! Location! | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 14 December 2004 12:26 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
Pretty much.

Another day, another exaggerated controversy, for the hell of it.


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 14 December 2004 02:35 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think its okay for an MP to abstain from the same sex marriage bill if they feel they cannot personally support it yet. I don’t know why some of us have to be so hostile and use the “fuck” word against Mazigh.
From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 14 December 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
Because it's the Internet golden rule: can't have a thread taken seriously without the word "fuck" being thrown about.

It is a bit much.

She can be dead wrong on the issue, she may even be a little bit (or very) homophobic in the minds of quite a few Babblers, but swearing at her won't advance the discussion of how any organization of whatever nature should handle value conflicts of this nature.

There is a thread somewhere (http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=000544) about how words like scum and "f---" and other insults get thrown around a bit too loosely.

When I was little, my mom punished me for using those words.

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: Critical Mass ]


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 14 December 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by babblerwannabe:
I think its okay for an MP to abstain from the same sex marriage bill if they feel they cannot personally support it yet. I don’t know why some of us have to be so hostile and use the “fuck” word against Mazigh.

Because she's a bigot. And let's can this moronic pretense of "can't support it yet." The issue is being decided now. Who gives a shit if she changes her mind in ten years from now?

She doesn't deserve my respect anymore than Stephen Harper or Bev Desjarlais do. If she can't treat me with respect, I will not treat her with respect.

Fuck her. Fuck Desjarlais. Fuck McGrath. Fuck Fuck Stephen Harper. Fuck Peter McKay. Fuck Pat O'Brien.

Fuck anyone who has the FUCKING gall to say I'm entitled to one iota less respect and recognition than practitioners of vaginal intercourse.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 14 December 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
I think she is homophobic on this question, but the fuck fuck fuck is a bit much.

We get the point.

What saddens me is that people like her and Bev never do. Maybe they'll come around to reason, leave their foolish irrational religious excuses for unfairness and inequality behind and join the modern secular world one day soon, but as you say, the decision is happening now.

Layton is going to have to deal with this one. Glad it's not me who has to.

P.S. Our sexual habits as heterosexuals are not restricted to vaginal intercourse. Not that I have anything whatsoever against doing my wife the traditional way. As long as she's wearing the little French maid costume...

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: Critical Mass ]


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 14 December 2004 04:02 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I support RB's right to tell these people to fuck off, even though I personally can't get that upset by them. Put yourself in a gay person's place; we grow up thinking that we're disordered, wrong, bad, sinful. We don't get to date in our teens and we generally miss out on a big chunk of a happy childhood. Then we decide we can't live the crazy-making lie anymore and come out, and our psyches never stop thanking us for being so brave. And then some miscreant tries to suggest that that level of experience and growth and personal honesty is invalid? There's a special hell reserved for people like that.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 14 December 2004 04:09 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's a special hell reserved for people like that.

You mean we can exile Bev and Monia and McGrath to the Tory caucus?


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 December 2004 04:12 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't accept religion as an excuse for being against gays ... sure they can scratch around their sacred text to find passages against gays, but if they tried even just a little bit, they could just as well come up with passages that demand that they include gays in all asspects of life. They just aren't trying hard enough ... and that in addition to all the other crap they ignore like stoning adulters, eating shellfish, etc.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 14 December 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am gay, forget I said anything. RB can express himself in whatever form he wants to. I can understand the anger. I just thought it was too blunt, and I am not a prude if you think I am. I say fuck all the time. I can accept there's some differences between abstainning from voting and voting no though. I think Bev should deserve a full "fuck" whereas the others should not. lol.

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 14 December 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass:
As long as she's wearing the little French maid costume...

And what do you do for her? Dress up like an English butler?

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 14 December 2004 04:33 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
A true gentleman never tells.
From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 14 December 2004 04:36 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yuck. Please stop flaunting your sexuality. It's very off-putting.

And I mean it...If I live a thousand years, I'll never understand the French maid's costume.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 14 December 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
It's a joke. No one really wears that stuff, except in movies.
From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erstwhile
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posted 14 December 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass:
It's a joke. No one really wears that stuff, except in movies.

Well, not entirely true - the last time I wore a maid's outfit, admittedly there was a camera rolling, but...

...er...

...you all should probably forget I wrote that...


From: Deepest Darkest Saskabush | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Guêpe
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posted 14 December 2004 05:23 PM      Profile for Guêpe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fuck anyone who has the FUCKING gall to say I'm entitled to one iota less respect and recognition than practitioners of vaginal intercourse.

As long as we aren't dissing the practition of vaginal intercourse...I happen to be a fan ...and I'm not the only one.

Ok seriously. I think the point on the whole swearing bit is valid. We won't win points by using cuss words...although this is an online forum...so this isn't exactly the leaders debate! - If jack started saying fuck this, fuck that....we'd be done!


From: Ottawa | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
speechpoet
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posted 14 December 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for speechpoet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I may fucking disapprove of all the goddamned swearing, but by fucking hell, I will defend to the fucking death your goddamned right to fucking say it."

-- Evelyn "Fuckhead" Beatrice Hall, writing as Stephen "Shit-for-Brains" Tallentyre, sometimes misattributed to Vol-fucking-taire, whose real name was François fucking Marie fucking Arouet

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: speechpoet ]


From: Sunny Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
speechpoet
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posted 14 December 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for speechpoet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guêpe may be forgetting this little incident.
From: Sunny Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Burns
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posted 14 December 2004 07:24 PM      Profile for Burns   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As a frequent "fuck"er I didn't object to the swearing in question. I objected to the lumping of a woman like Monia Mazigh, who has actively promoted the NDP and their policy of same-sex marriage notwithstanding her personal reservations, with vicious hate advocates.

I understand the rage of people denied their rights but I don't think that gives people the right to be stupid.


From: ... is everything. Location! Location! Location! | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 December 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly.

It may even be appropriate to sanction Mazigh within the aprty, or prevent her from running based on her views, yet it is not approriate to make the case that her position is one formulated in the same mold as Stephen Harper and Stockwell Day. Nor is it approriate to suggest that new Canadians, of which Mazigh most definitely is should be looked at through the same lens as though who have had all the benefits of being en-cultured in the way that has set the stage for Canadians to accept the idea that SSM is a legitimate right.

Whatever is approriate for the party to do, it is not ok to tar all persons with the same brush, without at least trying to comprehend where they come from, and why they think the way they do. That is the case whether their views are accepted in the party or rejected.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 14 December 2004 07:49 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Charlie Angus(NDP), Timmins–James Bay
The anti-gay tide of emails and calls to constituency offices is beginning to take its toll. On TVO last night Charlie Angus said he supports Charter Rights but will wait to see that the new legislation addresses religious freedom. Helena Guergis said she will follow her constituents on this issue and that she has not received a single positive comment about same-sex marriage

http://www.marriagevote.ca/news.html#mp_id226

One more reason why we cant just sit on our hands and think that this marriage bill will pass so easily. I am totally floored that there are people who believe that.

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 14 December 2004 07:53 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Gee, Charlie Angus is on the verge of selling out, is he? Time to remind him of his "Grievous Angels" period and who he knew at that time and how they know things.

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 December 2004 07:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, that is sad about Charlie, we used to be friends, but fuck him. That said, there isn't much in the lyrics of the GA to suggest they were ever much more than wishy-washy lefties with their hearts in the right place.

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 14 December 2004 09:11 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by speechpoet:
Guêpe may be forgetting this little incident.

speechpoet, "bullshit" is not a swearword, it is a graphic description of a dubious statement; by using it, Jack was merely giving a gracious nod to the local dialect of western Canadians.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Guêpe
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posted 14 December 2004 09:47 PM      Profile for Guêpe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:

speechpoet, "bullshit" is not a swearword, it is a graphic description of a dubious statement; by using it, Jack was merely giving a gracious nod to the local dialect of western Canadians.


actually i was going to say we got shut out of Sask in the last election...

(but yeah im sure thats not why!!!)

Edited to add:

quote:
The anti-gay tide of emails and calls to constituency offices is beginning to take its toll. On TVO last night Charlie Angus said he supports Charter Rights but will wait to see that the new legislation addresses religious freedom. Helena Guergis said she will follow her constituents on this issue and that she has not received a single positive comment about same-sex marriage

Religious freedoms!?! Have they not ALREADY been addressed? IE: United Churches are welcome to wed gays whereas Catholics are not forced to hold ss-weddings! What other freedoms need to be protected!?!

[ 14 December 2004: Message edited by: Guêpe ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 December 2004 09:55 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Charlie Angus should talk to his provincial seat mate Gilles Bisson. In 1995 Bisson got the same avalanche of anti-same sex spousal benefits mail and calls (and believe me that debate was every bit as emotional as this one is).

He defied them and voted YES. A year later in 1995, while NDP cowards who voted NO dropped like tenpins, he was reelected with over 50% of the vote and a 5,000 vote margin and became the NDP MPP with the largest winning margin in the whole caucus of 17!

In the provincial election last year the Ontario Tories tried to exploit this issue against the provincial Liberals and NDP - alot of good it did them!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 14 December 2004 10:13 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
In 1995 Bisson got the same avalanche of anti-same sex spousal benefits mail and calls. He defied them and voted YES.

His legislature speech should be required reading for any federal MP who has doubts on the SSM bill. All of it. For example:

quote:
I'm a heterosexual. I don't understand the questions of gay rights. I don't understand the questions of what it is to be a homosexual or a lesbian. The unknown, I think, scares many of us. It's something that is just natural within human beings.

More particularly, as a politician -- I'll be very honest with people and I'll be honest with the people in my riding -- I was afraid that if I stood in this Legislature and I voted yes, that the wrath of my voters would be felt come some 12 or 14 months from now.

At the point the decision was made to go ahead, and the majority of my caucus had decided to go ahead, I had to ask myself one question: I'm on the opposite side of the issue. Why? If a majority of the people I respect and a majority of the people I see as being good, decent human beings all of a sudden decide collectively that this is the right thing to do, maybe I should go back and revisit my position, because maybe there was a possibility I was wrong because of my phobias having to do with homosexuality, because of my phobias having to do with the whole question of what it is to be gay.

. . . everybody in northern Ontario is supposedly straight. Well, was I surprised. I started finding out that in my community there are literally thousands of gay people. But what was more remarkable and really interesting is that these people were afraid of coming out of the closet and saying, "I am gay," because they were afraid of the repercussions they would get within their community.

People are telling me from the gay community there's discrimination. People in the straight community are telling me there's no discrimination. Yet when I, as the representative of the riding of Cochrane South, start musing about the possibility of voting yes, I'm being told, "You vote yes, you're gone." That told me something. That told me there is discrimination.

Yes, it is a difficult thing to do to stand and say yes. Yes, possibly people in your own ridings may give you a hard time. But don't allow your difficulties in dealing with this issue hold up the rights of other people, because as legislators and social democrats we should never do that. We have to have courage and we have to have the fortitude to go forward and say to people in this province, "We have a Constitution and in that Constitution there is a charter. It invokes rights, and the people in this province are entitled to those rights."



From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 December 2004 10:18 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Religious freedoms!?! Have they not ALREADY been addressed? IE: United Churches are welcome to wed gays whereas Catholics are not forced to hold ss-weddings! What other freedoms need to be protected!?!


It is the status quo that takes AWAY religious freedom. The United Church and the Metropolitan Community Church WANT to perform same sex marriages. In their religions, they support these unions. Right now they are prevented from doing so in some provinces.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 December 2004 12:26 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 15 December 2004: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 December 2004 02:19 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That 'source' used to cite Charlie Angus's supposed wavering on this issue is a freaking message board! Come on get serious people -- don't be so damn flaky!

It's fine to condemn if if he actually voted against it, or even if he had a lame reason for abstaining -- but wow what a reliable source to base ones conclusions on.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 15 December 2004 03:40 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, but it never hurts to be sure. Eh, Charlie?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 December 2004 04:59 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair/true enough especially from your position.

But I'm sure getting inendated even if it is by a bunch of [insert terms here] is still daunting for an MP -- [i know this is your favourite thing stating the obvious i mean] but he is human therefore I'd rather wait to pass judgement.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 15 December 2004 05:04 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I agree with you, Vansterdam. People should use the burden of proof to decide how they feel about others, and MP's are no different.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 15 December 2004 08:19 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Burns:
As a frequent "fuck"er I didn't object to the swearing in question. I objected to the lumping of a woman like Monia Mazigh, who has actively promoted the NDP and their policy of same-sex marriage notwithstanding her personal reservations, with vicious hate advocates.

There is a time when when stands up to be counted. However Mazigh and her apologists want to spin it, she has decided to stand with the vicious hate advocates when the only moral option is to fight them.

Fuck her.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 15 December 2004 08:28 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass:
I think she is homophobic on this question, but the fuck fuck fuck is a bit much.

We get the point.


Perhaps you do, but others don't.

I want it to be perfectly clear that people like Monia Mazigh are not merely not my allies. They are my enemies.

I want it to be perfectly that their so-called morals are evil and are unacceptable to decent people.

I want people like Monia Mazigh to understand that if I am ever in a position to help them, for example to save their lives if they were drowning, I would stand there and calmly explain to them why I choose to abstain.

If you do not respect my equality, expect NOTHING from me.

And there is no difference between a Monia Mazigh, a Carolyn Parrish and a Stockwell Day. Fuck them all.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 December 2004 09:45 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then if you can't accept any evolutionary process of developoment, and insist always on the maximum appreciation of 'what is right,' outside of it's cultural and historical context, why do you belong to a party founded by someone who thought that homosexuality was a psychological disease to be cured?

As far as I can tell Monia has made no specific statement as to why she personally opposes SSM, nor has she suggested that she would oppose legislation that supports it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 15 December 2004 10:55 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Then if you can't accept any evolutionary process of developoment, and insist always on the maximum appreciation of 'what is right,' outside of it's cultural and historical context, why do you belong to a party founded by someone who thought that homosexuality was a psychological disease to be cured?

[quibble]I didn't think J.S.Woodsworth OR J.M. Coldwell had anything to say about homosexuality.[/quibble]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 15 December 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

Perhaps you do, but others don't.

I want it to be perfectly clear that people like Monia Mazigh are not merely not my allies. They are my enemies.

I want it to be perfectly that their so-called morals are evil and are unacceptable to decent people.

I want people like Monia Mazigh to understand that if I am ever in a position to help them, for example to save their lives if they were drowning, I would stand there and calmly explain to them why I choose to abstain.

If you do not respect my equality, expect NOTHING from me.

And there is no difference between a Monia Mazigh, a Carolyn Parrish and a Stockwell Day. Fuck them all.


This is very, very hateful language. Being on the rightside of an issue does not give you the right to be a bully. If it were up to me I would give you a warning about the appropriate tone to take as I don't see much difference from the language you use to those who think different than you, however wrong, than True Red Tory in another thread.
To call people evil, becuase they don't happen to share your world view comes from the same place as not allowing people to marry because they don't fit into your world view.
We need to educate people from their ignorance, not shout them down or we will never, ever get anywhere.
Let me be frank, back too many years ago to think about, I was one of the kids in high school, like most others in those days, using the word 'fag', making disparaging comments and all the idiotic stuff ignorant people can do. And that is the atmosphere that gives silent approval for some to act out that hate by bashing and the like. I am not proud of that high school kid, even though on many other issues he was a good kid trying to make a difference. I thought I was hip and cool and progressive, but really I was anything but, mostly because gays and lesbians were the unknown 'other'. It was only when I began to meet and make friends with people who were out that my eyes began to be opened.

That ignorant high school student went on to fight very hard to entrench full same-sex benefits in a Union contract, with some pretty conservative members, some 10-15 years ago.

That childish name-calling student stood up for what is right, when it would have been politically expedient to downplay the issue, in two election campaigns now on the issue of same-sex marriage. It would have been easy to turn the other way knowing that all the other parties in the riding were using it to undermine our campaign, but I spoke out strongly not because it was party policy, blah, blah, blah, but because it was RIGHT.

That same high school kid was so very pleased to be able to take his children to the marriage of two dear friends this past summer. To my kids it was barely even remarkable that it was two guys being married.

That's called progress and you would have given up on me back then too.

If I had to be confronted with the hate and anger you display, however understandable, I wonder if I would have just re-trenched and never opened my eyes. Screaming at someone to fuck off, no matter how justified you might feel, doesn't lead to understanding; it leads to people believing their prejudices were right in the first place.
Using the kind of language you use about this stuff does far more harm than good. Many of the people who are opposed to SSM think they are opposing it for good reasons. They are DEAD WRONG, but some are doing it because they were taught this is the right thing for their families and the broader community. Again they are DEAD WRONG, but saying you would rather see them dead is just as wrong.
I'm embarrased by that kid I was, but I like to believe he grew up and has done a tiny bit of good in his own small way in his itsy bitsy corner of the world. Perhaps others could be allowed to grow as well, not stamped into submission as deviants. Hasn't there been more enough of that over the many generations on these issues?


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 15 December 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have yet to see evidence of Mazigh's perceived opinion. The closest I've seen was some particularly odious threads pre-election that were based on the assumption that because the is a Muslim, she is therefore a homophobe.
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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Babbler # 6718

posted 15 December 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, right Grant, I'm a bully.

Bigots are standing in line to deny me my rights and because I call them what they are instead of bending over and taking it, I'm a bully.

Whatever.

I'm truly sorry -- not -- if it offends you that I'm willing to come flat out and say -- treat me like shit, expect to be treated like shit.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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Babbler # 6718

posted 15 December 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:
I have yet to see evidence of Mazigh's perceived opinion. The closest I've seen was some particularly odious threads pre-election that were based on the assumption that because the is a Muslim, she is therefore a homophobe.


She stated flat out she would not vote for same-sex marriage.

It has nothing to do with her status as a Muslim and everything to do with her status as a bigot. As far as I know, there are three Muslims in Parliament (two in the Commons, one in the Senate). Two of the three are staunch supporters of equality, including equal marriage. The other is a Conservative.

Frankly, what is an odious assumption is that her religious beliefs in any way excuse or mitigate her bigotry. If her religious beliefs mean she can't stand up for the rights of ALL Canadians then she had no business running for office and the NDP had no business accepting her as a candidate.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Burns
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Babbler # 7037

posted 15 December 2004 06:51 PM      Profile for Burns   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, if I had to chose people to chase out of the party I think I might boot the people who say "no one can disagree with me" over the people who say "I accept party policy and will work accordingly even though I disagree"

For the record the offensive comments by Mazigh were posted in another thread:

quote:
“It is very dangerous to endorse or oppose a candidate just because he supports or opposes same sex marriage,” Mazigh said. “We should not mix religion and politics.”

Clearly an odious hate criminal.

[ 15 December 2004: Message edited by: Burns ]


From: ... is everything. Location! Location! Location! | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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Babbler # 5444

posted 15 December 2004 07:30 PM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

I want people like Monia Mazigh to understand that if I am ever in a position to help them, for example to save their lives if they were drowning, I would stand there and calmly explain to them why I choose to abstain.

Okay, man. That's kind of creepin'...

I think many others have made that point and pointed out that Monia is a good person, just like Bev surely is. As I said before, there's many reasons why people oppose same-sex marriage and one's opposition to that doesn't make one evil.

I happen to be in favour of same-sex marriage.

But please, some consistency. Kick out Bev and Monia, or don't kick out either of them. I'd prefer, at this point, to not kick either of them out. People like 'Reality Bites' here seem a whole lot more vicious and hateful than Bev or Monia.

[ 15 December 2004: Message edited by: Dagmar ]


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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Babbler # 5620

posted 16 December 2004 01:06 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know what? This is yet another symptom of the same problem that has been corroding this board for weeks. A member of an oppressed group expresses frustration, frustration that I can barely comprehend, not being from that group. So I respect it. But too many babblers, as they do in the feminism and anti-racism fora, say something along the lines of

"There, there, darlin'! Why are you so angry? Why are you being so strident? These things you're worried about, these issues... they're not so important. Can't you see? Just calm down and be civil. And yes, take my advice, even though this issue does not affect me, and I can't possibly understand where you're coming from or what you've experienced. But I know best. Just calm down and stop being so darn uppity, already!"

My friends, my gay and lesbian friends here in Canada, feel like they are under siege. Maybe they are overreacting in some specific cases, out of a combination of fear, frustration, anger, a sense of injustice. Maybe. But it is their goddamn right to feel afraid in the face of a prejudice so violent, it takes lives. Let that sink in. IT. TAKES. LIVES.

My gay and lesbian friends feel they are at war, are under siege. They are afraid. I have no choice but to respect their fear and to humbly offer my moral support to their cause.

But since the rest of you all know better, and you know exactly what it takes to win this struggle that is not yours (or mine), if you are so utterly omniscient, why not just tell us how this ends? Since you know how long we have to wait to educate people, in your infinite wisdom, why not tell us? If we lay off the bigots for 5 years, will they turn around? 6 months? A generation? How long is long enough?

What's that? You don't actually know? You don't really have a plan, just a half assed committment to moderation for moderation's sake? That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. How about getting out of the way and letting people who know what they're talking about do the leading on this issue?


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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Babbler # 5444

posted 16 December 2004 01:15 AM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Like who?

Crazy extremists who believe that people who disagree with them should drown and die?

Sorry. People with these views should not be the leader of anything.

I doubt seriously that the frustration being expressed here is anything that actually represents a community. Seems more like a bunch of angry radicals.


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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Babbler # 5620

posted 16 December 2004 02:16 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dagmar - It is time for you to come out of your own personal closet.

You are a Liberal. You belong in the Liberal Party. The ideal political party you have described in every goddamn post you've made here is the Liberal Party of Canada. Your style of calling everything you disagree with "radical", "extreme", or "crazy" will fit in there. The way you pretend to give a shit about ordinary people when you're actually a conservative will fit in there. Your bigotry and homophobia, although it would not fit in perfectly, would certainly be quietly tolerated there. You know, I really don't think I'd mind you at all if you would just admit what we all know.

Come on, say it.

"I'm Dagmar... I've been struggling with my political feelings for a long time. I tried to keep up appearances, pretend I was a New Democrat, but deep down I knew I was different. I wasn't progressive, like the others. I hated poor people. I hated fags. I thought criminals deserved medieval-style punishments, and I never saw a tax I didn't want to cut.

I'm Dagmar... and I'm a Liberal."

Oh, and before I forget... fuck off, asshole.


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 December 2004 02:32 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Crazy extremists who believe that people who disagree with them should drown and die?

Uh, nobody suggested anyone should drown.

For that matter, nobody even expressed so much as a wish, or even a faint hope that anyone would drown.

All they said is that if a certain person were drowning, they wouldn't help. And that's their choice, isn't it? I mean, we're not somehow morally obligated to risk our lives to save someone we dislike, are we? Is my safety contingent on not happening upon someone I dislike drowning?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 16 December 2004 04:39 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John_D:
You know what? This is yet another symptom of the same problem that has been corroding this board for weeks. A member of an oppressed group expresses frustration, frustration that I can barely comprehend, not being from that group. So I respect it. But too many babblers, as they do in the feminism and anti-racism fora, say something along the lines of

"There, there, darlin'! Why are you so angry? Why are you being so strident? These things you're worried about, these issues... they're not so important. Can't you see? Just calm down and be civil. And yes, take my advice, even though this issue does not affect me, and I can't possibly understand where you're coming from or what you've experienced. But I know best. Just calm down and stop being so darn uppity, already!"


John...

Thank you so much!! I have waited and hoped that "some'a you" were going to "get it"... you do. It irritates the hell out of me to hear this patronizing, all-knowing crapola being spewed by some on this board, who think they know best how to deal with the whole issue.

Let me point something out to these know-it-alls: In case you are not aware (and a number obviously are NOT) homophobia is not the same as other forms of discrimination, and the effects and the feelings it illicits are wildly different from those faced by and felt by victims of sexism or racism.

How many persons of colour do you know who spent their teenage years hiding that fact, living in fear that their own family would discover "what they are", never mind the kids in school, or society at large? I sometimes hear persons of colour talk about how they can't hide who they are and are forced to deal with bigotry every day of their lives.

As if "hiding who we are" was something we should be glad of, or grateful for!!! If only these people understood the psychological toll it takes on every gay and lesbian to feel that overwhelming pressure to shut up, stay closeted, don't make a fuss... It is soul-destroying to have to lie and conceal something that is so basic to one's identity as sexuality. And so often, the people you should be able to turn to for solace, guidance and comfort — your FAMILY — are the very ones you are most terrified of finding out.

That kind of thing has long-term effects, whether we even realize them ourselves or not. I try not to do this,'coz I know it annoys Michelle all to hell, but I'm going to post a short exchange from the 365 forum from awhile back. I think it illustrates my point very well, which is why I initially saved it...

quote:

Subject : How about an intelligent debate?
Author : WShade
Date : 04/06/2004 07:16

Well, Nick, marriage is not for everyone, gay or straight. It's not so much about the sexuality of the people getting married as it is about their level of maturity.

As a group. gay males tend to suffer from poor social development. This has EVERYTHING to do with the wasted years in the closet that could have been invested in honing our social, emotional, and relationship skills. Add to this the lack of available role models for healthy, functional, stable LGBTQ relationships and we have serious issues to confront when it comes not only to marriage, but to relationships in general.

While teenage straights are experimenting with their parents' pride and approval, we are hiding.

WShade

~*~*~*~*

Subject : How about an intelligent debate?
Author : jd
Date : 04/06/2004 21:59

I agree with the comment on social development, wshade... it seems like a lot of gay guys are about 10-15 yrs behind their str8 peers (emotionally)...I see guys who are 35 who act more like they're out of high school...it's not really a bad thing, but it's a different reality. I agree totally that it's about being unable to experiment during the teenage years. If you wait for 10-15 years to do that, I also wonder if you can "regain" that period of your life and move ahead like everyone else.

~*~*~*~*

Subject : How about an intelligent debate?
Author : jd
Date : 04/06/2004 22:01

What does bother me though, is a lot of the relationships I see (and have had) with other guys seem to last about 3 months to a year. So it seems like the dating, even in our 20s and 30s, is alot like 16-17 yr old dating...ugh.

~*~*~*~*

Subject : How about an intelligent debate?
Author : WShade
Date : 04/07/2004 09:36

You're right, jd. We do relationships like teenage straights because emotionally that's where we're at in our 20's and early 30's. We're still trying to get the hang of it while our straight peers are tying the knot, raising families, buying their first homes, planning for retirement and old age.

When it comes to relationships, gay men are better off using "time out of the closet" as a better measuring stick of compatibility than biological age.

Two people of different ages may have been out of the closet for the same amount of time. These two are more than likely to have shared similar experiences and trials in gay life than someone of their own age group who has just come out.

It is the reason why I hear so many of my friends say that they will not date someone who is just coming out of the closet, or worse, they refuse to date someone who is still in it.

Coming out is a terrifying journey. One that I have often said is never truly complete. But the longer you are out, the more you have learned to accept yourself and others. You just aren't ready to do a meaningful relationship until you've passed that milestone.

WShade


Now, I'm not posting this to get babblers to "feel sorry" for us, or something like that... I want babblers to understand that the challenges faced by gays and lesbians are unique, and our feelings in confronting homophobia and coping with it are also far different from what you would find in groups facing racism or sexism.

How many women do you know who have repressed the fact that they are a woman and tried unsuccessfully to avoid dealing with the issue, only to "come out" as a woman in their mid 30s or early 40s? How many Asian kids do you know who attempted suicide when they came to the realization that they were Asian, but were terrified that their family would never understand or accept them?

My friend Kyle has postulated that the reason so many gay people he knows are "deep thinkers" on so many topics, and are so introspective is that we are forced to be from an early age. To paraphrase Kyle, he says,

quote:
Most of us are handed a world-view by our parents, complete with a million assumptions and things that "everybody just knows". And for so many straight kids, they just accept that, and hit the ground running. It's not like that for us. So much of what "everybody just knows" about queers is complete BS, that we have to deconstruct the entire worldview we've been given, and to examine each piece critically as we put it all back together. That means we question more than just things about our sexuality. We question everything.

I couldn't agree more. And that's all even before having to deal with the wider world out there. And even if we're lucky enough to have an understanding family, and an accepting group of friends, the wider world is not that tolerant. There are still "respectable" people out there (and even on our televisions) saying things about us that would get them ostracized or even charged if they were to say them about blacks, or Jews, or women. And they feel fully justified in saying these things!!

Do you wonder that it makes some of us a little "crazy" from time to time? That we become a little "radical" in demanding that our rights be acknowledged and recognized and respected right fucking now?!

John_D writes:

quote:
My friends, my gay and lesbian friends here in Canada, feel like they are under siege. Maybe they are overreacting in some specific cases, out of a combination of fear, frustration, anger, a sense of injustice. Maybe. But it is their goddamn right to feel afraid in the face of a prejudice so violent, it takes lives. Let that sink in. IT. TAKES. LIVES.

My gay and lesbian friends feel they are at war, are under siege. They are afraid. I have no choice but to respect their fear and to humbly offer my moral support to their cause.


Once again, thank you, John. You "get it". I just wish that more good-hearted, well-meaning babblers did too.

Oh, and Dagmar...? Regarding your comments about RealityBites...? FUCK YOU!!

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5953

posted 16 December 2004 05:24 AM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh. I wrote this.

Dear Bev Desjarlais:

I am an NDP supporter; I am very disappointed and shocked to hear that you are
not supporting the constitutional and human right of gays and lesbians to
marry, especially when you are an NDP representative who is supposed to be
unequivocally supporting human rights for gays and lesbians. I hope you
realise what is truly at stake and will act morally and with a sense of
integrity and responsibility when it comes to voting for the same sex bill in
the House of Common next year. I am writing to express my feelings that
minority right MUST be protected, and human right IS an absolute right. I urge
you to reconsider position. Thanks for listening.

Yours truly

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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Babbler # 7538

posted 16 December 2004 11:39 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hephaestion,
I take your point.
I do not know, nor can I ever know what it feels like to be gay or lesbian. I know I really don’t have even the faintest glimmer of a clue.

I do know a little about human nature though. I still maintain that shouting people down, telling them to ‘fuck off’ and to say things like I would prefer you die is not only wrong because of the underlying violence it is wrong for future generations. Confronted like this many, maybe even most people will get their back up.

There is a great deal of difference between rights and acceptance (I’m sure this isn’t the word I want but I can’t think of another right now). I think both are important. Rights are more immediate and must be addressed now; acceptance, I suppose, is more for those who will come later. If we are to spare today’s children and their children some of the pain of coming to terms with who they really are, straight people like me, who might be open to learning, must be brought from their ignorance. If today’s parents pass on their prejudices, and they will, I fear nothing will change in the day to day lives of young people struggling with who they are. And the cycle of hurt and pain will continue, so will deaths. That is what gets me concerned when I see some of the comments I read. Telling parents, or anyone else to fuck off because they are living out the lessons they were taught will not help their children and sounds like bullying to me. But that's just my opinion. By and large it is from straight families that gays and lesbians come from. That’s not likely to change even if existing fundamental rights are finally acknowledged by the government.

A few weeks ago I was shocked to hear, but I know I really shouldn’t have been, two kids on my son’s hockey team call each other ‘fags’. These are 5 and 6 year olds. That language didn’t come out of a Franklin book; it came from home or older siblings. I spoke with those kids, but I’m sure it went in one ear and out the other, but I was really doing it for my son. We had a long talk on the way home about how much hurt words like that can cause; even for people you don’t say them too. I hope that stays in, but it is a big battle with so many other messages filtering in as well. Unless we change things on the ground all the rights in the world will not stop gay and lesbian kids feeling so alone that their best option is to end their lives.

The point I was trying to make in my own inarticulate way was one my grandmother always made, you get what you give sometimes. If you give shit, however understandable and justified, you might just get shat upon. I was not trying to say it is wrong to feel that way, who am I to judge that. But rather suggest that an open hand rather than a closed fist shaken in the face might save my kids, or someone else’s, a little bit of pain some day.

I believe to co-opt the language of violence coming from the other side confirms already held prejudices for people who might be of several conflicted minds over all of this. I also believe that it is just as wrong for someone who I agree with to use that kind of language as someone I do not. I would call the person on it I disagree with, should I let violent language pass just because I agree? But, as I said I take your point and it is a good one. I will shut up and mind my own business. I hope it is alright if I remain a person of good will and try and do a little bit of good where I can.

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Grant R. ]

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Grant R. ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Burns
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7037

posted 16 December 2004 11:49 AM      Profile for Burns   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John_D:
My friends, my gay and lesbian friends here in Canada, feel like they are under siege. Maybe they are overreacting in some specific cases, out of a combination of fear, frustration, anger, a sense of injustice. Maybe. But it is their goddamn right to feel afraid in the face of a prejudice so violent, it takes lives. Let that sink in. IT. TAKES. LIVES.
Can we have a reality check please?

Monia Mazigh's husband was deported to fucking Syria without just cause where god knows what could have happened to him. THAT'S persecuition. THAT is living under seige. Living in a country where THAT can happen is goddam scary.

I support same-sex marriage. But amongst my lesbian, gay and trans friends the failure to haqve it recognized in law is more of an annoynace then an act of unparalelled terrorism or violence.


From: ... is everything. Location! Location! Location! | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 16 December 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Grant R—

Thanks for the response. You wrote...

quote:

I do know a little about human nature though. I still maintain that shouting people down, telling them to ‘fuck off’ and to say things like I would prefer you die is not only wrong because of the underlying violence it is wrong for future generations. Confronted like this many, maybe even most people will get their back up.

Ummm... ya. That's kind of the way the gay community is feeling. Being confronted with never-ending harassment, vicious beatings, name-calling and even sexual assaults at the hands of the New York City police is the spark that started the Stonewall Riot. The "fags fought back", and what began as an inchoate lashing out at abusive power led to a rights movement that is still ongoing. I'm fully aware of the standard reaction to harsh language, and that it gets people's "backs up." That reaction can happen on both sides of any given issue.

quote:
There is a great deal of difference between rights and acceptance (I’m sure this isn’t the word I want but I can’t think of another right now). I think both are important. Rights are more immediate and must be addressed now; acceptance, I suppose, is more for those who will come later.

Without question. Lincoln's armies ended official slavery in the USA, but 100 years later "acceptance" had progressed so little that MLK and others were forced to undertake the civil rights movement to force real, substantive change to a system that had become comfortable with ingrained, institutionalized bigotry. The civil rights marchers made great strides, but let's not give all the credit to Martin Luther King Jr. and his movement. There was also an angry, impatient side to the black civil rights movement, led by Malcolm X.

Eisenhower America had initially resisted, but what made King, and the moderate reforms he was proposing, suddenly seem so reasonable and acceptable was the alternative — "Black Power", Huey Newton, Black Panthers and the like. That scared the shit out of complacent America and made them realize that they had to make a serious effort at reforming the system or be faced with violence that would affect them, and not just some marchers in the streets in far-off Alabama or Arkansas.

So yeah, King achieved much, but I daresay he wouldn't have accomplished as much if it were not for the strident, angry voices that could also be heard. These voices played an integral role that cannot be discounted. And while no analogy is wholly true and accurate, do you honestly think we would be dealing with same-sex marriage (as opposed to "civil unions") if there hadn't been some within our community who became angry and declared that they were not willing to settle for "just as good" status? As RB pointed out elsewhere, the NDP has largely been a cheerleader in this fight — the heavy slogging has been done (and the legal bills paid) by Egale and numerous gay rights activists across the country.

Activists from our community have got us this far, not anyone else. And yes, we *have* had support from some straight people, and even some churches, but it's been our people on the front lines of this fight, and I have some sympathy with some of RB's blow-ups and angry words, especially when he's reacting to the head-shaking and the inevitable chorus of "now simmer down" that springs up. Yes, we need our Martin Luther Kings, but we also have need of our Malcolm X-s, too.

And one more point about "acceptance"....

EVER SINCE the election, I've been carrying around a small newspaper clipping with an Alabama dateline. It tells how the voters rejected a referendum to cleanse their constitution of language that once required segregated schools.

Some embarrassed citizens insist that the vote was not really about race. They say that ballot question was framed by its opponents as a backdoor way to raise taxes. They remind me that the Alabama Constitution has as many amendments as my city has parking meters.

But there's no way around the fact that half a century after Brown v. Board of Education, Alabamans left discrimination enshrined in their constitution. There's no way around the fact that 40 years after Governor George Wallace declared "segregation forever," some portion of Alabamans are still not "ready" for integration.

quote:
If we are to spare today’s children and their children some of the pain of coming to terms with who they really are, straight people like me, who might be open to learning, must be brought from their ignorance. If today’s parents pass on their prejudices, and they will, I fear nothing will change in the day to day lives of young people struggling with who they are. And the cycle of hurt and pain will continue, so will deaths. That is what gets me concerned when I see some of the comments I read. Telling parents, or anyone else to fuck off because they are living out the lessons they were taught will not help their children and sounds like bullying to me. But that's just my opinion.

With all due respect Grant (and I'm really not meaning to come across like a prick) that is RICH! If the "lessons" that these parents were taught are based on bigotry then it's high time they *stopped* "living them out". My granny to her dying day referred to "the Japs" and called us kids "dirty little Turks" when we were misbehaving; my own mother remains sadly convinced that she failed somehow and that I am a "pervert" because I am gay. I don't swallow all the hogwash that I learned at my granny's knee and I refute my mother's religious dogma... but my brother is firmly raising his kids as "good Christians", sees me as a moral pariah and is, in effect, raising his own children to hate me. And I am not alone in these type of circumstances, I am sure. And when someone refers to RB's justifiable expression of contempt and anger as "bullying" all I can do is snort in derision.

Grant, anything RB might say doesn't come CLOSE to the definition of bullying that I know. That doesn't mean I fully agree with it; losing one's temper is rarely productive, no matter how understandable it might be. But "bullying"?? Get real!

quote:
By and large it is from straight families that gays and lesbians come from. That’s not likely to change even if existing fundamental rights are finally acknowledged by the government.

Uhhh.... yeah, I'd say about 99.99999 % of gays and lesbians come from straight parents. Until very, very recently, that was pretty much a given. And no, those odds are not going to change as a result of any legislation, Ralph Klein's declarations, or papal fiat.

quote:
A few weeks ago I was shocked to hear, but I know I really shouldn’t have been, two kids on my son’s hockey team call each other ‘fags’. These are 5 and 6 year olds. That language didn’t come out of a Franklin book; it came from home or older siblings. I spoke with those kids, but I’m sure it went in one ear and out the other, but I was really doing it for my son. We had a long talk on the way home about how much hurt words like that can cause; even for people you don’t say them too. I hope that stays in, but it is a big battle with so many other messages filtering in as well. Unless we change things on the ground all the rights in the world will not stop gay and lesbian kids feeling so alone that their best option is to end their lives.

Good for you, Grant. Seriously, good on ya! But I wonder how much time you spend with your kids when they're around other kids. 'Coz I hear comments like that from school kids all the time, and I don't even have kids of my own. "Fag" and "gay" have become commonplace slurs, and from the kids who joined in on the beating death of Aaron Webster to the kids who hounded Joshua Melo to his death, we see the end result of that kind of casual, off-hand hatred. Success only really comes when you no longer have to talk to your kids, because they're hauling their contemporaries up short for their casual bigotry. Good on you for making the effort. Far, far too many parents just let it slide.

quote:
The point I was trying to make in my own inarticulate way was one my grandmother always made, you get what you give sometimes. If you give shit, however understandable and justified, you might just get shat upon. I was not trying to say it is wrong to feel that way, who am I to judge that. But rather suggest that an open hand rather than a closed fist shaken in the face might save my kids, or someone else’s, a little bit of pain some day.

Oh, I'm fully aware that we "need to be reasonable", that "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" and all the rest of that. I've heard it all so many times that I could puke. But y'know what? Most of the time we don't need to "give shit" at all... we just "get shat upon" regardless. This is not to say that there is no merit in what you say, but I tend to have a lot of sympathy and understanding for RB's explosions of invective — hell, I'm prone to them myself sometimes. But you need to understand, too, that all too often the "closed fist" on our side comes as a result of innumerable times of having the "open hand" slapped away and being punched in the head. RB may be a little hair-triggered, but I have far less problem with him than do some others, obviously.

quote:
I believe to co-opt the language of violence coming from the other side confirms already held prejudices for people who might be of several conflicted minds over all of this. I also believe that it is just as wrong for someone who I agree with to use that kind of language as someone I do not. I would call the person on it I disagree with, should I let violent language pass just because I agree? But, as I said I take your point and it is a good one. I will shut up and mind my own business. I hope it is alright if I remain a person of good will and try and do a little bit of good where I can.

Grant, if you thought "my point" was to get people to "shut up and mind their own business", you misunderstand. I didn't mean to infer that, and if that's what you took from it, my apologies. What I *was* trying to get across was that there are legitimate reasons for RB's anger and his insistance that he will not accept anything less than full equality. I feel the same way, and I have no hesitation in telling people like Dagmar, who rails against "freaks" on the "left wing" and calls for RB to be banned to get stuffed. I'd take RB over Dagmar any day of the week.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm aware that RB can be abrasive, but from my perspective in a lot of ways it's been the "in your face" guys like RB and Larry Kramer who have advanced us as far as we've gotten. They are our Malcolm X-s, and I am not about to turn my back on them when the "polite company" comes calling.

Keep talking, by all means. Just don't expect me to join in any chorus that is telling RB to shut up.

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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