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Author Topic: Hanging eavestrough :-(
skdadl
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posted 01 September 2005 12:33 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does anyone know about eavestroughs?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 01 September 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I propped mine up with wooden beams yesterday during the deluge.

But all I really know is that water is also subject to the law of gravity, so eavestroughs should work on this principle.


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Erstwhile
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posted 01 September 2005 12:36 PM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I sure do know about eavestroughs! I heard someone was all like, "eavestroughs are soooooo stupid", and the eavestroughs were all like "nooooo way dude!" and then a whole bunch of people were all like "whoah, what's the big deal?" but the guy who called the eavestroughs stupid and the eavestroughs were all like "shut up or there's gonna be trouble" and it was looking really tense, y'know? Plus I think the eavestroughs were seeing that guy's girlfriend.

Anyway, that's what I heard. About eavestroughs.


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Mush
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posted 01 September 2005 12:37 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Only enough to know that there's more to them than at first appears...like the correct slopes, how far downspouts should direct the water away from the house, and I'm sure much else....

(wow- what a spectaculatly unhelpful post...sorry)


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skdadl
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posted 01 September 2005 12:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, Erstwhile: you're the guy who made "Gonads and Strife," eh?

Do you think it was the deluge? We did have a Great Wind a week or so ago.

NB: oldgoat: straight line alert ...


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chubbybear
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posted 01 September 2005 12:51 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Try here: http://tinyurl.com/c82kg

Personally, I like vinyl. Easy to work with, needs next to no maintenance. Easetroughs are easy if you don't mind ladders.


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skdadl
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posted 01 September 2005 01:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not all that steady on my feet is the thing, chubbybear. I do ladders indoors -- I am, eg, painting at the moment. That I can do, at what I feel is at least a controlled risk.

But it kind of took the wind out of my sails to see that hanging eavestrough. I keep thinking I've got everything under control, and then there's one more thing, and ... Ok: I'm feeling sorry for self. But it has been that kind of week. Year. Life. If you see what I mean.


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Mush
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posted 01 September 2005 01:21 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Chin up, there Skdadl! I'm sure it will all come together! (...pointless, but hopefully cheery optimism)
From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 01 September 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What do you want to know? How to repair them? Put them up correctly? About supports, strapping, and screening for them?
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skdadl
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posted 01 September 2005 01:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I want someone to save me, Tommy.

It is beyond my competence to do such work.


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Cartman
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posted 01 September 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used to hang eavestrough when I was a teen. It was really easy, but we had machines do all of the cutting for us. Hanging was a snap if you don't mind being on a ladder. If not, get someone else to do it.
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 September 2005 02:04 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you have a good handyman? Should be about a $30 job to reattach a dangling eavestrough, assuming you don't have other issues with them (clogged, draining too close to the foundation, etc.)

Next time you're out for a stroll, pay attention to telephone poles and bus shelters. There's usually some kind of "Man with a Van/I fix anything/reasonable rates" kind of ad on one if you notice it.


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Cougyr
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posted 01 September 2005 02:15 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Serious work on eavetroughs requires either scaffolding or a cherry picker. What you need to know, skdadl, is why the trough is dangling. The nails, or screws, have pulled out. That won't happen if the wood framing is solid. My guess is that you have some rot up there; which means that something has to be replaced. The longer you wait, the more expensive this is going to get. Deal with it. Soon. Water problems on the outside have a nasty way of worming their way inside.

The best bet is to find a neighbour who is not afraid to climb up and examine the problem close up. If you have a neighbour who is handy with tools, you might be get it fixed for the cost of materials and a couple of cases of beer. Good luck.


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Albireo
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posted 01 September 2005 03:26 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
skdadl: By any chance, do your evestroughs (hanging or not) drain down a pipe and out of site under the ground (and off to the storm-sewer system)? If so, then the City of Toronto will often be able to re-do them so that they drain out onto your lawn or garden, and seep into the ground from there. The city does this to relieve pressure on the sewer system, which can often overflow during storms, causing nasty sewage to flow into the lake. They usually do that work at no cost to you.

Here's the relevant part: In the course of doing the job, they will often replace evestroughs, which means that your dangling troughs are then magically new, and properly hung.

The downside is that even if it applies to you, there is a waiting list. I applied last year, and our eavestroughs were re-routed this year. But I totally lucked out and they re-did almost everything, with brand spankin' new troughs replacing the old dangling ones. I was thrilled, and it likely saved me about $2000. They had a top-notch contractor do the work, too. If you happen to qualify, perhaps you could make do with a makeshift job for now (like just hammering them back in as they are) and see what the city might do for you next year.

City of Toronto Downspout Disconnection Program. There is a phone number on that page for enquiries.


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Albireo
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posted 01 September 2005 03:33 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[Also:] Magoo's suggestion above may just be a "makeshift" temporary solution that gets you through until the work can be properly done. What Cougyr says could be true: there is sometimes rotting wood under the cladding, which is why the evestrough nails can come out in the first place. I was lucky, and my wood was OK, so the city didn't mind just putting up new troughs. If you actually had rotten wood that needed to be replaced, I'm not sure if they would have been so obliging. Certainly a private contractor charges much more if they have to replace the whole thing right down to the wood. After deciding that the fix was beyond my own competence, I got some estimates, and a couple of them came with conditions (if we have to replace the wood & cladding, then X; if not, then Y..)

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


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skdadl
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posted 01 September 2005 03:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I fear that I got re-routed (at own expense) last year, Albireo. I had known before how important that was to do, and there had been a problem here before we arrived with dampness in the basement, so I had it done right away. Drat.

I have someone who is going to come and take a gander this weekend, so we'll see. Sigh.


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Albireo
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posted 01 September 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, if that someone is a contractor, do make sure that you get a few opinions. Some will do more (and charge more) than is necessary, others will charge less and do an inadequate job. Finding the right person to do the right job is tricky. But if you've been a homeowner for a while, you probably know already what a minefield the world of contractors can be.
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blacklisted
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posted 01 September 2005 04:24 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
one route to go is to call the local carpenter's union and see if they can steer you to a reputable contractore. sometimes they also have some out-of-work or retired members looking to pick up some work.
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chubbybear
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posted 01 September 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: chubbybear ]


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Tommy Shanks
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posted 02 September 2005 09:48 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry about being late responding.

This is a copper hung gutter, although the principles are the same for just about any type of gutter system.

This is probably one of the best ways to install gutters. Note there are no penetrative fasteners, such as gutter spikes or nails. Common sense would indicate that you shouldn't poke hioles in gutters. The system is independent of the fascia or eave of the house, so nasty business like the natural rate of expansion and contraction of the gutter can be handled because it isn't bound up with the building itself. This is a general rule with most building components. Avoid attaching large components to each other if you can.

One of the main problems with gutter installation is using long single sections (say 20' or 25') that are then rigidly fastened to the eave with spikes at 2' intervals. This applies to aluminum and plastic gutters as well. These systems will work for a while (as most homeowners will attest) but won't stand up over time.

The key to a heavy-duty and worry-free system is to take the strapping and support brackets up the slope of the roof (as in the detail above, although the brackets aren't shown) and let the gutter sit in the support without being affixed to it. The whole system moves and it should last 40 or 50 years. It can be more expensive (since you need to usually remove some shingles when its installed) but by and large you get what you paid for.


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skdadl
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posted 02 September 2005 10:06 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fascinating, Tommy. Are you telling me that all those parts just slip together? No screws or bolts anywhere?

Would you also say (obviously I'm hoping you will) that the best time to do that sort of thing would be when the whole roof is redone (like, not tomorrow, but maybe next year)?

Is there any serious damage that can result from just popping the thing back in place? I can see where several bolts just seem to be popped forward -- I mean, the thing is more sagging than hanging ... Oh, hell: I'm still in denial, amn't I?


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Tommy Shanks
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posted 02 September 2005 10:31 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You need some fasteners. In the detail it shows a gutter strap screwed into the roof, extending across the width of the gutter and then hooking into a stiffening rod (which makes the front edge of the gutter rigid). This is then bolted into the gutter (which is hard to see) but it’s not tightened and the hole is slotted so the assembly can move back and forth. This occurs every 4 to 8 feet depending on the size of the gutter.

The gutter apron (the piece that runs under the roof and clips onto the edge of the gutter shape) is nailed into the roof. Because of that you use smaller sections, typically a maximum of 8' with nails every foot or so. Other than that, cleats and clips are basically used to fasten the whole thing together. And the bending of the gutter and its edges imparts a great amount of strength to the whole assembly. I was once working with a contractor who demonstrated how strong his gutters were by hanging from them. He was four storeys up, and I was more then a little impressed.

The best time to do this is, as you said, when you are replacing the roof. It is easy to do otherwise as a replacement or repair; just some shingles when finished will be notably different.

As to what you have now, simply popping it into place sounds like it would work temporarily. If the spikes have popped out, that means you'll have a problem finding a spot to nail them back in securely. Down the road this will become a problem.


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blacklisted
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posted 02 September 2005 11:33 AM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i've done this repair on a few older homes as well. generally what happens is moisture migrayes up the spikes holding the support brackets and rots the ends of the rafters over time. if your house isn't too old, like under 20-30 years, the rafter ends probably aren't totally gone.
in that case what you want to do is get some 1/4" x 3" to 4" lag bolts from your local hard ware store, or length to exceed the existing spikes by an inch or two.
http://www.nutsandbolts.com/lag-bolts.html

insert them through the bracket into the existing hole with a washer and some silicon calking to stop moisture moving up.they should drive in with a hammer reasonably easily. thread them in and tighten down with a ratchet or box end wrench until snug.this fix can last for years.
if the rafter end is rotted out completely its a good indication you need some costly repair work.


From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 02 September 2005 11:58 AM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
blacklisted, the fix you describe has me puzzled, when you speak of support brackets siked into the rafter-ends. On an older home wouldn't the typical installation be the long (6" +)eavestrough spike runiing from the outside of the trough, through a ferrule ( a piece of tube just big enough for the spike), piercing the inner wall of the trough and then into some the facia board ?

I do agree with you on the water migration down the spike, and that that, wind vibration, freeze-thaw effect, etc do, over time cause the spikes to come loose. what skdadl secribes sounds very much like that kind of progressive failure. And it should be fixed sooner than later, as the damage tends to accelerate once the trough starts to sag. But if it is the typical installation I describe above, that fis can be easily done by putting in new spikes and ferrules between the existing ones, and, as you say, using a good quality caulk.


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 September 2005 12:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
House built in 1920s. Waaaah.

Had a very good inspector's report, mind. Only two problems noted: basement (fixed) and roof -- obviously not fixed.


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Cougyr
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posted 02 September 2005 01:03 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
House built in 1920s. Waaaah.

Nothing wrong with the 1920's. Houses built then were often better built. The catch is that Mother Nature doesn't care. If you take care of your house, it will take care of you. If you don't take care of your house, Mother Nature will. None of us want to sound like Simon Legree here, skdadl, but there is some urgency. The problem, what ever it is, is going to get worse unless you fix it.


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skdadl
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posted 02 September 2005 01:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sure you're right, Cougyr. Why do I keep learning that lesson in new and different ways day after day after day?

Or as Mother would have said: No rest for the wicked!


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blacklisted
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posted 02 September 2005 03:55 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
james, your exactly right on the spike and ferule, on older traditional eavestroughs. the last couple i fixed had a heavy gauge "c" clip that clipped over the outside edge ,then attached on the inside only, it eliminates the ferule, and thus leaf jams,supposedly.
my oversight, but the spike does go into the rafter tail through the facia, in either case. usually the fascia rots out first.

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 September 2005 09:19 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bump for HerbKeeper.
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Fidel
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posted 25 September 2005 02:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Look into seamless metal eaves trough. I think troughs can start to leak at the joints with these do it yourself PVC pipe kits. Even small outfits will have the bending equipment to do a nice job without seams. I think this is one job that's worth leaving to the experts.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HerpKeeper
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posted 26 September 2005 12:16 AM      Profile for HerpKeeper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you so much Skdadl. I found lots of useful information for my little project next weekend. It should be fun. Oh, and my ID is HERPKeeper, as in loving and raising reptile babies, not growing garden herbs. Not that there's anything wrong with that... (LOL) Just in case you wanted to know. Again, many thanks. You're awesome!
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skdadl
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posted 26 September 2005 12:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah. Sorry for the misreading, HerpKeeper -- gee, and I'm supposed to make a living as an editor. *blush*

Reptile babies, is it? I like reptiles, y'know -- I like some of them a lot. Turtles, lizards -- anything with legs, really.


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HerpKeeper
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posted 26 September 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for HerpKeeper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You all keep me in mind if you need reptile advice and I'll keep bugging you for home repair advice. I will probably be doing most of the asking.
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fern hill
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posted 26 September 2005 01:07 PM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HerpKeeper:
You all keep me in mind if you need reptile advice and I'll keep bugging you for home repair advice. I will probably be doing most of the asking.

What do you know about reptile dysfunction?


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BeantheBoo
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posted 28 September 2005 08:18 AM      Profile for BeantheBoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy Shanks:
Sorry about being late responding.

This is a copper hung gutter, although the principles are the same for just about any type of gutter system.

This is probably one of the best ways to install gutters. Note there are no penetrative fasteners, such as gutter spikes or nails. Common sense would indicate that you shouldn't poke hioles in gutters. The system is independent of the fascia or eave of the house, so nasty business like the natural rate of expansion and contraction of the gutter can be handled because it isn't bound up with the building itself. This is a general rule with most building components. Avoid attaching large components to each other if you can.

One of the main problems with gutter installation is using long single sections (say 20' or 25') that are then rigidly fastened to the eave with spikes at 2' intervals. This applies to aluminum and plastic gutters as well. These systems will work for a while (as most homeowners will attest) but won't stand up over time.

The key to a heavy-duty and worry-free system is to take the strapping and support brackets up the slope of the roof (as in the detail above, although the brackets aren't shown) and let the gutter sit in the support without being affixed to it. The whole system moves and it should last 40 or 50 years. It can be more expensive (since you need to usually remove some shingles when its installed) but by and large you get what you paid for.


This is an intelligent, comprehensive response and gives me hope that you might have an answer to what has been on my mind for a while.
I've recently had some troughs installed and it was generally a fairly good job only I'm concerned about one aspect of it which are the gutter straps. In your drawing I see the straps are connected *under* the ledge of the drip gaurd. The person who installed ours has placed them *over* it with the rationale that this will prevent the troughs from being pried loose by overhanging and melting snow in the winter.
This prying loose has been a problem in the past with us. The building is an old schoolhouse out in the country with a steel roof that has a steep pitch or slope, making the troughs susceptable to huge amounts of snow during melting periods. I can understand the logic of firm reinforcement against the melting snow however the overhanging gutters create the problem which is bothering me.
It is simply this. Because the straps, which are placed about 1 meter apart, are overhanging, it allows dripping when it rains. The person who hung the trough shrugged off my concerns and said that the dripping was negligeable and that I was being paranoid. I've placed buckets underneath the drips and also a few feet out from the house and find the bucket under the trough fills with water very quickly while the bucket which is further out does not.
I'm concerned because our house is over 120 years old and I don't want to adversely affect the foundation by excessive moisture.
If anyone knows about this, please tell me. Also, if you could refer me to any other information over the net that can better inform me...I would appreciate that too...
I was impressed by the illustration that was provided about strapping. If you have any other drawings that would explain my particular issue...I would consider myself most fortunate indeed.
Thanks in Advance
Bean the Boo

[ 28 September 2005: Message edited by: BeantheBoo ]

[ 28 September 2005: Message edited by: BeantheBoo ]


From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 15 October 2005 09:45 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is a beautiful sunny crisp day here today. And the eavestroughing person is coming. At last.

HerpKeeper and BeantheBoo, I hope that you have had success with your troughs and drips and spouts.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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