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Author Topic: Don't look, don't tell, troops told
remind
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posted 16 June 2008 08:30 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
**WARNING FOLLOWING CONTENT CONTAINS GRAPHIC RECOUNTS**
quote:
Canadian soldiers serving in Afghanistan have been ordered by commanding officers "to ignore" incidents of sexual assault among the civilian population, says a military chaplain who counsels troops returning home with post-traumatic stress disorder.

The chaplain, Jean Johns, says she recently counselled a Canadian soldier who said he witnessed a boy being raped by an Afghan soldier, then wrote a report on the allegation for her brigade chaplain.

In her March report, which she says should have been advanced "up the chain of command," Johns says the corporal told her that Canadian troops have been ordered by commanding officers "to ignore" incidents of sexual assault. Johns hasn't received a reply to the report.

...The independent claims bolster the credibility of an account provided by Cpl. Travis Schouten, a Canadian soldier who served in Afghanistan from September 2006 through early 2007 and now suffers from severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

A Star story Saturday detailed an allegation levelled by Schouten that during his tour, he heard an Afghan national army soldier abusing a young boy and then saw the boy afterwards with visible signs of rape trauma, his bowels and lower intestines falling out of his body.


http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/443954

This is sickening and no wonder it has just been announced that the "Taliban" have taken over several Afghan villages. Bull shit the people are fighting back against terrible and horrifying occupational and domestic forces.

thought our military was supposed to be fighting "chaos" not crearting it?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 16 June 2008 08:40 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is horrifying, remind. Thank you for bringing it to our attention, but I wish I hadn't read it.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 16 June 2008 09:16 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ya, it is pretty hard to deal with, and even harder to deal with is that Canadians are not screaming en masse to get our military the hell out!

Whatever happens there after could not be worse than what is currently happening.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boarsbreath
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posted 16 June 2008 04:25 PM      Profile for Boarsbreath   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I recall reading in 2000 and 2001 that it was precisely this problem that got the Taliban started on their takeover of the country -- stopping the warlords' practice of raping (especailly boys).

It led to the Hobson's choice for outsiders (before all the fuss about Bin Laden) -- oppose the Taliban because they oppress women (and people generally), or support them because they protect women (and people generally). Law and order versus liberty...


From: South Seas, ex Montreal | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 16 June 2008 05:43 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Each one of us could send his or her MP and each party leader a copy of this article with the question "What are you waiting to stop supporting this occupation? Don't you realize you are making every Canadian an accomplice?"
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 16 June 2008 06:56 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder if the publication of such an exposé signals an editorial change of heart at the Star. What has been their previous position on our invasion of Afghanistan and that wonderful Afghan army we are dying to support?
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 16 June 2008 06:58 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to this recent IRIN report, the problem of child sexual abuse is widespread in Afghanistan:
quote:
Sweeta’s is not an isolated case: Some children are exploited for sexual purposes but their misery is rarely talked about in public.

“Many cases are unreported,” said Hangama Anwary, a commissioner for the rights of children with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC).

At least 31 cases of child sexual abuse were registered by the AIHRC in 2007. So far this year only four cases have been reported, though it is estimated by the AIHRC and other human rights organisations, that there are hundreds of cases every year.



From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kdrunkin1
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posted 16 June 2008 07:15 PM      Profile for Kdrunkin1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
ya, it is pretty hard to deal with, and even harder to deal with is that Canadians are not screaming en masse to get our military the hell out!

Whatever happens there after could not be worse than what is currently happening.


Just remember you said this when the UN forces pull out of Afghanistan and things get worse. Don't cry for them after our troops are pulled out. Just because our military would be out of there does not mean that it will not continue to happen.


From: SE Sask | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 16 June 2008 09:31 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kdrunkin1:
Just remember you said this when the UN forces pull out of Afghanistan and things get worse. Don't cry for them after our troops are pulled out. Just because our military would be out of there does not mean that it will not continue to happen.

But if there's a perverse policy of turning a blind eye to evil acts perpetrated by our "allies" then of what good are we doing there now?

The Taliban were doing nasty things to people for years before 9/11 and the U.S., Canada and Britain didn't seem to give a hoot.

We went into Afghanistan as part of Bush's "war on terror" seven years ago, not to help the Afghani people, out of the goodness of our hearts, be free from the Taliban.

This "don't look don't tell" policy just underscores that fact.

The world is a big bad scary place with lots of countries in which injustices and atrocities occur, including our own for some.

The sad reality is we choose everyday to turn a blind eye to it all, so I for one will never be fooled by the, we're there to help the Iraqi people, or the Afghani people, etc. We simply aren't in the business of helping people, historically.

Now occupation, military subjugation and propping up brutal regimes we call "allies" we have a long history of.

The British legacy still lives through it's sons and daughters in the "New World".


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contrarianna
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posted 16 June 2008 09:41 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kdrunkin1:

Just remember you said this when the UN forces pull out of Afghanistan and things get worse. Don't cry for them after our troops are pulled out. Just because our military would be out of there does not mean that it will not continue to happen.



And so therefore it's better to participate the abuse and carnage?
That is the argument used by occupiers for not withdrawing from an occupation that is not going well.

Yeah, where would the primative Afghans be without your continued civilizing concern:

"The eight-month McClatchy investigation found a pattern of abuse that continued for years. The abuse of detainees at Bagram has been reported by U.S. media organizations, in particular The New York Times, which broke several developments in the story. But the extent of the mistreatment, and that it eclipsed the alleged abuse at Guantanamo, hasn't previously been revealed."
...
"The brutality at Bagram peaked in December 2002, when U.S. soldiers beat two Afghan detainees, Habibullah and Dilawar, to death as they hung by their wrists.

Dilawar died on Dec. 10, seven days after Habibullah died. He’d been hit in his leg so many times that the tissue was “falling apart” and had “basically been pulpified,” said then-Lt. Col. Elizabeth Rouse, the Air Force medical examiner who performed the autopsy on him.

Had Dilawar lived, Rouse said in sworn testimony, “I believe the injury to the legs are so extensive that it would have required amputation.”

After Habibullah died, a legal officer for U.S. forces in Afghanistan asked two military police guards at Bagram to demonstrate how they’d chained detainees’ wrists above their heads in a small plywood isolation cell."
.......
"Adel al Zamel, a Kuwaiti, said guards frequently waved sticks at him and threatened to rape him at Bagram during the spring of 2002. During an interview in Kuwait City, Zamel shook his head and said he remembered hearing detainees being beaten and “the cries from the interrogation room” at Bagram.

He wasn’t the only person to report sexual humiliation.

Sgt. Selena Salcedo, a U.S. military intelligence officer, said that sometime between August 2002 and February 2003 she saw another interrogator, Pfc. Damien Corsetti, pull down the pants of a detainee and leave his genitals exposed.

In a 2005 sworn statement in the court-martial of Corsetti, she said she’d left the room and that when she’d returned the detainee was bent over a table and Corsetti was waving a plastic bottle near his buttocks. She said she didn’t know whether the detainee had been raped."McClatchy Washington Bureau

[ 16 June 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 16 June 2008 09:44 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
double post dammit

[ 16 June 2008: Message edited by: Bacchus ]


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Bacchus
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posted 16 June 2008 09:46 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Just remember you said this when the UN forces pull out of Afghanistan and things get worse. Don't cry for them after our troops are pulled out. Just because our military would be out of there does not mean that it will not continue to happen.


But the key, for me, is that we have to be better than what was there previously and have to be seen to be so. I agreed with the afghan mission and still believe pulling out before there is something in place to stay firm is true. But not, I repeat not, if we are not improving things and protecting the people around us. It is not enough to say "too bad u were raped but look at these neat roads we built you". If we are gonna intervene (read invade) these 'third' world world countries because we are so much better than them, shouldnt we have to fucking prove it?


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mimeguy
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posted 17 June 2008 08:41 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes thank you Remind for posting this.

Rape is a recognized war crime. http://www.nytimes.com/specials/bosnia/context/0628warcrimes-tribunal.html

quote:
June 28, 1996

For First Time, Court Defines Rape as War Crime
By MARLISE SIMONS

HE HAGUE, Netherlands -- A United Nations tribunal announced Thursday the indictment of eight Bosnian Serb military and police officers in connection with rapes of Muslim women in the Bosnian war, marking the first time sexual assault has been treated separately as a crime of war.

The indictments were announced by the International Criminal Tribunal in the Hague after almost two years of investigations.

Court officials said that although rape charges had been included in other cases, this indictment gave organized rape and other sexual offenses their due place in international law as crimes against humanity.


Rapes committed by Afghan soldiers, or any soldiers, are war crimes. Any order from Canadian commanders to ignore and not report these crimes is immoral and illegal and Canadian soldiers should not be obliged to follow it. These rapes should be documented and submitted to the International Criminal Court. UN soldiers in Haiti have also used rape on Haitian girls but have managed to beat the rap so to speak by being sent home to supposedly face charges under their domestic governments. This should never be allowed to happen.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 June 2008 09:17 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kdrunkin1:
Just remember you said this when the UN forces pull out of Afghanistan and things get worse. Don't cry for them after our troops are pulled out. Just because our military would be out of there does not mean that it will not continue to happen.

What do not get about our military being complicit in war crimes, and that we Canadians are complicit as well?

And of course I will remember it, and as I said things CANNOT get worse!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 17 June 2008 09:21 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

What do not get about our military being complicit in war crimes, and that we Canadians are complicit as well?

And of course I will remember it, and as I said things CANNOT get worse!


You don't think things cannot get worse without our military there? Whatever you think of the mission and whether we should be there, our soldiers are honest well-meaning individuals for the most part. Any girl that has gotten to go to school will no longer be there. any improvements or headway made in the past 7 years will be gone.

If Canada pulls out, we will re-examine your comments as things will undoubtedly get worse. They just will not get any media coverage.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 17 June 2008 09:42 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You don't think things cannot get worse without our military there? Whatever you think of the mission and whether we should be there, our soldiers are honest well-meaning individuals for the most part. Any girl that has gotten to go to school will no longer be there. any improvements or headway made in the past 7 years will be gone.

If Canada pulls out, we will re-examine your comments as things will undoubtedly get worse. They just will not get any media coverage.


I'm having trouble believing you are this naive or blind. Complicity in war crimes, participation in unrealized development that continues to only make Western corporations wealthier, ignoring the human rights violations by the Afghan government, war crimes committed by warlords who now serve in the Afghan government, ignoring the wide spread corruption of NATO participating nations and the Afghan government, Canadian commanding officers establishing that it is a crime for girls not to go to school but have no problem with girls and boys raped by Afghan soldiers, placing more credence on propaganda selling of the war effort over the actual realities faced by Afghan civilians does not improve the situation. Things will not get worse if Canadian soldiers withdraw and leave. They will stay the same for Afghan civilians but Canadians will not longer be complicit in their suffering.

Under your definition of what should happen an Afghan girl will be educated and grow up understanding that Canadians are hypocrites, war criminals, and corrupt liars. That is hardly the legacy Canadians should leave behind when people with your opinion have somehow 'won' the war.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 17 June 2008 10:14 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find this debate a little disturbing from both sides.

Sure I recognize that for some the issue of whether we pull out or remain in Afghanistan is the only debating topic but surely this issue is not dependent on a resolution to that wider discussion.

It is not right to ignore war crimes whether or not this mission is a good one for Canada to be involved in. If you frame the entire argument over "why we should leave" and don't win, then you are hardly helping this issue. If we leave that solves the problem at least with respect to what we do there -- but if we stay responding to crimes against civilians when discovered seems basic and essential. Surely we can get both the people who support the mission and those who oppose it to agree on that?

As far as the mission itself, I have a lot of difficulty both with the mission and a pull-out. I have long felt that this was a cause Canada should have been involved in. However, I believe it ought to have been fought for at the UN and a UN mandate the condition for our participation. since we are there, and have already played a role in takign down what was there, pulling out is not so simple. Once again I think Canada's position could have been to set a deadline for a UN mission there after which we would pull out if we did not have the sanction, authority and oversight of the UN.

I am not saying the UN is perfect but it ought to be the only allowable sanction for entering another country with military force. But I recognize that there are many, if not most people on both sides of the pull-out debate who would not agree. That disagreement should not stop us from addressing poor instructions for our troops that have little to do with the wider mission.


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Ghislaine
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posted 17 June 2008 10:14 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mimeguy:

I'm having trouble believing you are this naive or blind. Complicity in war crimes, participation in unrealized development that continues to only make Western corporations wealthier, ignoring the human rights violations by the Afghan government, war crimes committed by warlords who now serve in the Afghan government, ignoring the wide spread corruption of NATO participating nations and the Afghan government, Canadian commanding officers establishing that it is a crime for girls not to go to school but have no problem with girls and boys raped by Afghan soldiers, placing more credence on propaganda selling of the war effort over the actual realities faced by Afghan civilians does not improve the situation. Things will not get worse if Canadian soldiers withdraw and leave. They will stay the same for Afghan civilians but Canadians will not longer be complicit in their suffering.

Under your definition of what should happen an Afghan girl will be educated and grow up understanding that Canadians are hypocrites, war criminals, and corrupt liars. That is hardly the legacy Canadians should leave behind when people with your opinion have somehow 'won' the war.


So we have no responsibility to try and help them? Our legacy will be the people that abandoned them? Do we have no responsibility as a country to help those who are less fortunate?


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 17 June 2008 10:28 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do we have the same obligation to help the people of Pakistan?

Large parts of the border areas of their country are apparently held and effectively run by the same people we are fighting in Afghanistan. What exactly should we be doing in both of those countries?

Is there any hope of turning Afghanistan into anymore democratic a state with rights for women than there is in Pakistan?

How many generations of Canadian soldiers are you willing to commit to the occupation of Afghanistan? Should we stay there 10 years, 20 years or 30 years. Pakistan is still struggling with their democracy and they have been trying to get it right for about 60 years. Are you willing to have Canadian troops there for 60 years?

We can't even protect our women on the cruel streets of the Downtown Eastside or when travelling on the Highway of Tears. Do you really believe we can protect Afghan women from their own men when we can't even protect the marginalized women in our own country?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 June 2008 11:19 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ghislaine:
You don't think things cannot get worse without our military there?
No I do not, at least the Taliban will not be destroying established orchards, and levelling villages. And anything that the Taliban would do, is already being being done.

quote:
Whatever you think of the mission and whether we should be there, our soldiers are honest well-meaning individuals for the most part.
This is not germaine to the discussion, and has no bearing upon anything.

quote:
Any girl that has gotten to go to school will no longer be there.
Plea to emotions, and you have no idea whether or not it would be a correct assumption.

quote:
any improvements or headway made in the past 7 years will be gone.
I am waiting for you now to detail what headway has been made, and why it will be gone.

quote:
If Canada pulls out, we will re-examine your comments as things will undoubtedly get worse. They just will not get any media coverage.

Feel free, as yours will be examined, as well. Whether it gets media coverage, or not, I am sure it will be discussed here, as we discuss things all the time that get very little, if any, media coverage in the MSM. So that side rail is not germaine either.


And what mimeguy said!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 17 June 2008 12:43 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Our military is an occupation force, killing Afghans and collaborating actively in their torture and systematic rape - even if current media exposés are carefully limited to abuse perpetrated by Afghan governmental forces. The future will probably reveal more if and when Afghans are ever allowed to testify on just how we "helped" them under the Harper-Bush regime.
The notion that we are doing this for their own good is being fought, thanks God!, with AK-47s and mines rather than merely by Canadian "progressive" individuals and parties.

[ 17 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 17 June 2008 01:06 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sean I agree that the debate is disturbing but there comes a time when stands have to be made. The trouble I find is that pro and anti mission supporters do not seem to agree on the severity of the events that have been pointed out. The difference is that we are not participating in the liberation of Afghan people but are actively part of the aggression against them. The aggression against the Afghans is not coming from Taliban fighters alone but from NATO participants also. The choice isn’t between, freedom or oppression but which gun they want pointed at their heads. Which power they would rather have exploiting their lives.
The reason I listed the abuses in the way I did was to point out the overwhelming destructiveness (as I see it) that NATO has brought to the country. If the mission intentions were based on lies in 2001 then the mission is still founded on that deception. This has nothing to do with liberation or the human rights of women. Those are propaganda tools used to ‘sell’ the war. The intention was always to exploit the destabilization of the region and gain western control in order to exert further influence over the Middle East. I guarantee you if we had ‘won’ the war by now and the Taliban had disbanded and insurgents surrendered. Afghan women would not be under the protection of human rights by the Karzai government. Corruption would be rampant but as long as that corruption tilted the balance in favour of western economic interests then it would be allowed to continue. Afghan soldiers and government officials would not be held accountable for war crimes. This is the reality of the situation and it becomes clearer that Canada must decide to withdraw from being one of the aggressors and perpetrators of that scenario. That’s the difference now. That is the decision that Canada faces. Read and listen to your own phrasing,

“That disagreement should not stop us from addressing poor instructions for our troops that have little to do with the wider mission.”

Poor instructions? What possessed you to phrase it in that manner? Rape is a war crime and these were not instructions. They were military orders which carry consequences if disobeyed. Orders which were intended to silence Canadian troops who witness war crimes of this nature. Orders that were designed to make sure there was no negative focus on Afghan troops that could be brought out because it would hurt the image of the war. It is complicity in the war crime itself. It is ‘accessory after the fact’ if that term applies to covering up a war crime as it does in helping to cover up a domestic crime which assists the perpetrator to escape.

From the TS article

quote:
The independent claims bolster the credibility of an account provided by Cpl. Travis Schouten, a Canadian soldier who served in Afghanistan from September 2006 through early 2007 and now suffers from severe post-traumatic stress disorder.

2006. In other words from the beginning of the mission itself and we can further assume that this was in practice from the very start of the war committed by warlord clans. Have these orders been in place since then?


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 17 June 2008 01:08 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ghislaine -
quote:
So we have no responsibility to try and help them? Our legacy will be the people that abandoned them? Do we have no responsibility as a country to help those who are less fortunate?

Yes we do but not through violence. We have that responsibility through peacekeeping, diplomacy and negotiation. All of which have been actively blocked by NATO under the influence of the U.S. There is no peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan yet as there is no peace agreement. Canada cannot participate in peacekeeping in Afghanistan because it is a party to the violence. This leaves us with the option of paying restitution through real development if and when a peace agreement can take hold. You cannot reconstruct a country while actively destroying and exploiting it. Canada should abide by its moral obligations not the military desires of its allies. Canada needs to end its involvement in Afghanistan and call for a peace process to begin. (Whether one begins or not is not the issue.) There further needs to be a larger peace process involving the entire region which calls for the participation of regional players such as Russia, China, Iran, India and the smaller states surrounding Afghanistan. Western nations do not have the right to be the only influence in the region.


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Sean in Ottawa
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posted 17 June 2008 02:22 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mimeguy:

“That disagreement should not stop us from addressing poor instructions for our troops that have little to do with the wider mission.”

Poor instructions? What possessed you to phrase it in that manner?


I am not assuming that our troops like seeing war crimes committed against civilians before their eyes and I am aware that to do nothing is being complicit. But some person instructed them to ignore it for whatever screwed up definition of a mission purpose they had. That is a poor instruction. I would put it differently if the issue was a Canadian committing the atrocities directly. Who ever provided the don't look don't tell message is sending the poor instructions and that person is a war criminal in a greater sense than a soldier who has received the instruction and who is following orders. That said we all have a responsibility to question certain orders and in our society the means to do so.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 June 2008 02:34 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No actually Sean, the military personal accepting the orders are just as complicit in war crimes, taking orders to ignore, or to conduct war crimes, is not accpetable under War Crimes Tribunals.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 17 June 2008 02:49 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And it my understanding that our troops are supposed to be well trained in those kinds of protocols. The person who gave the order should be court marshalled and hopefully given a fair sentence if found guilty. The soldiers are to blame but it is hard to jut blame the few that get caught. If we are really serious about not turning a blind eye this has to be relayed in a convincing manner to the troops serving. Our politicians need to ensure that the military follows the rule of law. If they cannot then there is no democratic control over our armed forces.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 17 June 2008 03:40 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Militaries don't consider rape a serious matter. That's the way it is. They don't even really investigate sexual assaults involving their own members, so why should they give a shit about some local girl? Unless, of course, they can exploit it for propaganda purposes.
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mimeguy
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posted 17 June 2008 04:07 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Militaries don't consider rape a serious matter. That's the way it is. They don't even really investigate sexual assaults involving their own members, so why should they give a shit about some local girl? Unless, of course, they can exploit it for propaganda purposes.

The difference now is that rape is a recognized war crime all on its own. Systematic rape that is as opposed to singular instances. This was established by the ICC back in 1996. If Afghan soldiers are raping women and children on a regular basis then it constitutes a war crime. It can be taken out of the military's control.


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Frustrated Mess
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posted 17 June 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So we have no responsibility to try and help them? Our legacy will be the people that abandoned them? Do we have no responsibility as a country to help those who are less fortunate?

Yes, and we are helping them by killing civilians and ignoring brutal, vicious rapes that leave the intestines hanging from a young boy's body. Hurray, us!!!

Fuck.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 June 2008 07:05 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ghislaine:

You don't think things cannot get worse without our military there?


Irrelevant. Don't care. Life got "worse" for lots of African Americans after Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation - just as the white slaveowners said it would. I'm smelling the same argument here.

quote:
Whatever you think of the mission and whether we should be there, our soldiers are honest well-meaning individuals for the most part.

Groundless speculation. What percentage signed up for thrills and adventure? You don't know, do you? The difference is that I don't care. Nice people who commit (or in particular order) aggression and war crimes are nice aggressors and war criminals.

quote:
Any girl that has gotten to go to school will no longer be there. any improvements or headway made in the past 7 years will be gone.

I don't believe you, and furthermore I don't care. Not my business. Certainly not yours. You call these people "less fortunate", which to me is a synonym for "inferior". Leave them alone. Stay out of their lives. Their civilization has been around a lot longer than yours, and I'm quite sure it wasn't built upon the disenfranchisement and displacement and domination of others (as yours was). Learn a lesson from them, and stop trying to teach them one.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
dackle
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posted 17 June 2008 07:40 PM      Profile for dackle        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sex with young boys has been a tradition in that area for thousands of years. How dare a western supremacist, colonialist country try to supplant the local customs.
From: The province no one likes. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 June 2008 07:46 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dackle:
Sex with young boys has been a tradition in that area for thousands of years. How dare a western supremacist, colonialist country try to supplant the local customs.

"Supplant" - is that a synonym for air strikes? Or self-righteousness? Use simpler words please.

ETA: Or, is that your SKS rifle? Nice local customs.

[ 17 June 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 17 June 2008 08:33 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dackle, are you being sarcastic when you equate rape with sex? Are you comfortable with that stance? I am not.

[ 17 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
dackle
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posted 17 June 2008 08:47 PM      Profile for dackle        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
are you being sarcastic when you equate rape with sex?

No. Many have argued they are the same though.

From a 'traditional' point of view I'm not sure the Afghani's call it rape. It has been going on a long time.

Still, we should stay out of it as an imperialist, colonialist nation.


From: The province no one likes. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 17 June 2008 09:37 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are certainly entitled to keep out of it racist aspersions on Afghanis.

[ 17 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 18 June 2008 09:21 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hillier responds to don't look don't tell story..

Toronto Star - http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/445130

quote:
"We have all the authority we need. We are there to help Afghans," Gen. Rick Hillier told the Commons defence committee yesterday. "If somebody is being seriously abused and we are witness to it, we are not going to stand by and see that continue.

Omar Samad, Afghan ambassador to Canada

quote:
Omar Samad, Afghan ambassador to Canada, said yesterday he's "troubled and concerned" by allegations raised by Canadian military chaplains and a senior Canadian officer that soldiers have witnessed Afghan troops abusing young boys, but have been powerless to stop it because of orders.

"There's nothing normal or acceptable about these abuses," Samad said in an interview.

He said he had not heard the term "Man Sex Thursdays."


quote:
In the Commons, Bloc Québécois MP Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean) said Canada has been complicit if soldiers have been ordered to ignore rape cases.

Peter MacKay responds..

quote:
"Any suggestion that Canadian soldiers would deliberately turn a blind eye to assaults like this are abhorrent and should not be raised on the floor of the House of Commons," Defence Minister Peter MacKay responded. "We are absolutely committed to looking into these matters. I met again with leaders of the Canadian Forces, the Chief of the Land Staff, to see that we do a complete forensic examination of all evidence, to look into all these allegations and get to the bottom of it."

MacKay also asked opposition MPs to "show a modicum of respect for the timeframe that it takes to investigate and look into serious allegations such as this. Let us not cast aspersions without doing a little bit of research into the facts first."

Opposition MPs said later that the rape allegations were first raised more than a year ago.



From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 18 June 2008 09:48 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is the brief exchange in the House according to Hansard.

http://tinyurl.com/42rr79

quote:
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, that could have been avoided if the minister had had proper information services, but he did not.
On another note, the Afghan mission cannot succeed if we do not win the hearts of the Afghan people and the public. We learn from the mouth of a Canadian chaplain that officers tell Canadian soldiers to ignore sexual assaults committed by the Afghan army against the public. That does not make sense. By closing our eyes, Canada becomes an accomplice to those crimes.
Is that a new way of winning the hearts of the Afghans?

Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, CPC):
Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely false. The hon. member's statement is absolutely false.
[English]
We are in Afghanistan to help promote human rights and protect individuals. That is why we are investing in programs, with immunization and health care. Any suggestion that Canadian soldiers would deliberately turn a blind eye to assaults like this are abhorrent and should not be raised on the floor of the House of Commons.

Peter MacKay continues to prove he cannot handle Foreign Affairs or National Defense. First he says that the statement is completely false but of course it isn't. The order to ignore these crimes makes Canada complicit. The House of Commons is exactly where this should be questioned and debated because the final responsibility rests with the government of Canada to ensure these things don't happen within the military. That's why we have civilian oversight.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 18 June 2008 10:01 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mimeguy the problem is wee no longer have any real civilian oversight. Hell we don't even have Canadian oversight. We are a junior partner in an American occupation of an potentially important oil corridor.

I listened to the daughter of the Mayor of Kandahar on the CBC this morning. She talked about the brave women in a program she runs that helps women. She then went in to the problems these women have with their husbands and the control that they exert over their lives in many areas. Lets all step back and give our heads a shake these men she was talking about are not the evil Taliban we are fighting but in fact the men that are supposed to be NATO's allies. To me her interview highlighted that we are not there to protect women or children since it is our good friends over there that the women we are trying to help are afraid of.

Her interview highlighted the fact that we can't win this war because the behaviours we claim to be there to prevent are committed by all sides not just the "enemy."


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 June 2008 11:23 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dackle:
Sex with young boys has been a tradition in that area for thousands of years. How dare a western supremacist, colonialist country try to supplant the local customs.

We are not talking about sex, we are talking about rape, with bowels hanging out of the poor child's ass afterwards.

Having said that, where do you get off saying it is a tradition that has been going on for thousands of years??


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 18 June 2008 11:47 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

We are not talking about sex, we are talking about rape, with bowels hanging out of the poor child's ass afterwards.

Having said that, where do you get off saying it is a tradition that has been going on for thousands of years??


Because pederasty was practiced in Central Asia/Middle East for a long, long time? Just like it was in Greece, and Japan, and China, and countless other places?

Mind you, that doesn't separate this from the fact that this instance is definitely an example of the use of authority to impose upon the victim. Protection via status, etc. It is one of those terrible aspects of war.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 18 June 2008 11:49 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

We are not talking about sex, we are talking about rape, with bowels hanging out of the poor child's ass afterwards.

Having said that, where do you get off saying it is a tradition that has been going on for thousands of years??



He is right but the problem is he confines it to Afghanistan. Canada has many men who rape young people especially men in positions of power who like young boys. I found his statement to be just another "boy are we superior" piece of crap. Yup raping minors has been going on for thousands of years in most cultures on this planet so his point is largely irrelevant unless it is an excuse for not trying to change that abuse.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 18 June 2008 12:47 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's hear it for Canadian democracy: a system where if the government doesn't like a fact, it can just call anyone who says so a liar and get away with it - in an orgy of partisan desk-thumping - because its official "opposition" doesn't dare to vote the scoundrels out of office.
quote:
"Any suggestion that Canadian soldiers would deliberately turn a blind eye to assaults like this are abhorrent and should not be raised on the floor of the House of Commons," Defence Minister Peter MacKay responded.

[ 18 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 June 2008 12:52 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
He is right but the problem is he confines it to Afghanistan.
That was exactly my point, I worded it poorly.

quote:
Canada has many men who rape young people especially men in positions of power who like young boys. I found his statement to be just another "boy are we superior" piece of crap. Yup raping minors has been going on for thousands of years in most cultures on this planet so his point is largely irrelevant unless it is an excuse for not trying to change that abuse.
Yep yep yep....

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 18 June 2008 12:53 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, letès hear it for Canadian democracy, which is far superior to most systems on the planet.

And when we do criticize Canadian democracy, let us remember that working people fought for it, and helped bring it about.

Those who want to give up on it are reactionaries who want to impose their views on others who are not sufficiently enlightened.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 June 2008 12:58 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Let's hear it for Canadian democracy: a system where if the government doesn't like a fact, it can just call anyone who says so a liar and get away with it - in an orgy of partisan desk-thumping - because its official "opposition" doesn't dare to vote the scoundrels out of office.

Yes, MacKay called the military chaplain a liar, in the HoC, what a class act he is, eh!

As for his stating it should not be discussed in the HoC, just where in hell should it be discussed then?

This is just the latest inexcusable action of MacKay's.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 18 June 2008 01:14 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of the Harper governement, our government.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 June 2008 01:22 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was confining my commentary to this topic, Martin, as there needs to be very little reason given for a drift to happen.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 June 2008 01:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dackle:
Sex with young boys has been a tradition in that area for thousands of years. How dare a western supremacist, colonialist country try to supplant the local customs.

Okay, you're nothing but a racist, sexist troll. (Yes, I remember your horseshit in the Father's Day thread too.) You're out of here.

[ 18 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 18 June 2008 01:28 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You have a government that claims the HoC is not a proper forum for debate about the actions of our troops. We have media that under reports all corporate corruption but don't worry I think the news has a brand new piece on Paris Hilton because a free press is the cornerstone of democracy.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 18 June 2008 01:45 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And hey, if the government gets in any trouble about its trashing of this courageous chaplain, the media can show us a re-run of the Grim Harper solemnly apologizing for the Feds having turned a blind eye to the rape of indigenous kids in Canada's residential schools. (Wait another fifty years and I'm sure they'll apologize about Afghan kids too.)
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 June 2008 06:18 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
And hey, if the government gets in any trouble about its trashing of this courageous chaplain, the media can show us a re-run of the Grim Harper solemnly apologizing for the Feds having turned a blind eye to the rape of indigenous kids in Canada's residential schools. (Wait another fifty years and I'm sure they'll apologize about Afghan kids too.)
I hear you Martin, one really has to grapple with trying to comprehend those, who can turn aside common human decency, and how that so many have done so throughout our history.

We can frame our perceptions around understanding patriarchy and the vast role it has played, how operant conditioning works, and/or around how damaged people create damaged people. However, those frameworks do not explain why some, who have experienced the same things, stand in opposition to those who have no human decency and would love to subjugate all others.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 19 June 2008 07:29 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
(BACK-EDITED) It's true there is no simple mechanical model explaining resistance to oppression. But this 'failure' to scientifically 'explain' it makes even more way for people's agency, doesn't it? This chaplain may have wrecked his carreer but he did speak up and if the media and Opposition have any conscience, they will follow up this disclosure and force accountability from the Can. govt.
Also, am I right in hearing you allude to the commonly held belief that people who rape youths do so because they themselves have experienced rape? I haven't seen data bearing out this hypothesis - and if it were true, women would be committing rape in disproportionate numbers.
I think that this excuse can seem reassuring by allowing us not to acknowledge men's choice (and pleasure) at exerting sexual power over.
What is real is the existence of a rape-ist culture*** - especially in certain communities - that encourages assaulters and discourages protestors, e.g. religious sects, armed forces, communities where women have no status.
But rape isn't just individual; as in Afghanistan and elsewhere, it is also a tactic used by colonial and racist power systms. We need to keep this in mind when the media points us at individuyal perpetrators and paints them as "sick" or "alien" (e.g. Afghan soldiers, when abuse committed by our own Forces remain below the radar).
***A good example: A bartender is raped by two cops in Iowa, who are then helped by their superior in evading the media AND still aren't fired!
(source)

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Loretta
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posted 22 June 2008 09:16 AM      Profile for Loretta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just a reminder that the chaplain is a "she"...
From: The West Kootenays of BC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 22 June 2008 11:05 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes, letès hear it for Canadian democracy, which is far superior to most systems on the planet.

Canadian Democracy - Serving the interests of social elites since 1867.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 23 June 2008 08:12 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is just as sick as the US fiasco at the boy prison in Iraq where unreleased video shows iraq boys screaming for their lives while being sodomized by american soldiers.
--------------------------------------------------
Seymour Hersh says the US government has videotapes of boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking," the reporter told an ACLU convention last week. Hersh says there was "a massive amount of criminal wrongdoing that was covered up at the highest command out there, and higher."


So the Canadian soldier doesn't stoop this low...just trains the Afghan soldier too. So much for protecting the children of afghanistan.

Show me a neoconservative that gives a shit about woman or children..I'll eat my shorts...I can't see how people that vote for conservatives can sleep at night.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lost in Bruce County
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posted 23 June 2008 06:09 PM      Profile for Lost in Bruce County        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with Sean of Ottawa - pulling out is not a simplistic matter, nor do I think pulling out will effectively resolve the issue - our issue. Look at Haiti, it's still a disaster. You're kidding yourself if you believe that Canada will not be playing a role if it formally pulls out. Canada and Canadian business will continue to manipulate and profit off human suffering. We live in a global village - everything we do affects everyone else. The big wigs will continue to pull strings behind the scenes. If we formally pull out that means Canadian citizens lose their voice on matters because "formally" we won't be there. It seems to me that our presents in Afghan is not the problem - our troop's behavior/inaction and the design and goals of our mission is problematic. So lets deal with our racism, sexism, violence, and exploitation. Running away doesn't solve anything long term and I'm not convinced that it would effectively resolve anything in the short term. Someone raised the concern that we could be there for generations - guess what - that's how long it takes to heal issues this big. Years after residential schools we are undergoing a peace and reconciliation process with our native communities because the hurt, pain, and suffering caused by these schools is still very much alive and present. We should be committed to seeing the resolve of human rights issues all the way through for all peoples everywhere. And this is why I believe that we should continue to be invested and concerned in Afghanistan as a matter of human rights. I am inclined to agree with Naomi Kline - wiping the slate clean never really has the anticipated effects; it's not really a fresh start. We need to stop thinking in black and white terms - Canadian troops are not "all" good or "all" bad. Pulling out of Afghanistan will also dismantle anything that is beneficial along with the bad - and I'm not sure that it could cleanse our negative presences as too much has been invested, said, and done. For these reasons I believe that we need to observe the problematics of our involvement with Afghanistan along side the positive, and take the opportunity to initiative change within ourselves. While there is a million and one arguments that this could never happen under the Harper government, remember that human rights and social justice has always come out against great odds - and to me pulling out seems like a lousy excuse to try and wipe our hands clean of a mess we surely took a part in creating. There are many possible actions to be taken here - perhaps lobbying the government with concert goals in mind, like anti-oppressive training for troops, or perhaps it's not waiting for others to do something and forging working relationships between our communities all by ourselves. I'm sure if I search the net I would find that these constructive initiatives have already been started.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 June 2008 07:42 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lost in Bruce County:
We live in a global village

Speak for yourself. I live in Outremont.

quote:
I'm sure if I search the net I would find that these constructive initiatives have already been started.

Go ahead. Search the net. Let us know what you find. I suggest you Google "Provincial Reconstruction Teams", then come back with some stories about how some girl went to school to take economics and then got a microcredit loan which enabled her to pay for caskets for the rest of the family slaughtered in a U.S. air strike called in by Canadians afraid of getting their buttocks blown to bits by strange-looking natives in odd costumes.

See, I can do long paragraphs too without taking a breath or (as in your case) stopping to think.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lost in Bruce County
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posted 24 June 2008 05:34 AM      Profile for Lost in Bruce County        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unionist I'm not sure why you feel to the need to be so mean. Deconstruct my points, but don't insult me as a person and my ability to think. I thought union members were suppose to follow an equity statement that encourages decent and difference of opinion but not undermining others. Add to the conversation but don't insult me.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 June 2008 05:57 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Lost, I apologize for being abrupt with you.

If you were to raise those views in a union meeting, I'd be far more polite - because we don't ask workers to be progressive and anti-imperialist and anti-war or even anti-racist or anti-sexist or anything in order to belong to the union and attend a meeting.

But babble is supposed to be slightly different.

When someone on this discussion board tries (in 2008) to justify Canadian military presence in Afghanistan, I react differently. Your views can be expressed without fear of contradiction on lots of online forums, indeed in letters to the editor of the MSM, or in meetings of any of the mainstream political parties. Peddling them here is a bit much IMO. We need a slightly safe space where we don't have to start from square one debating whether or not Canadians should be killing and dying over there.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 24 June 2008 06:15 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I understand your reaction, unionist, but I think if you step back, you're being a bit tough on him. Perhaps LiBC doesn't know that we spend $11 blowing things up for every one we spend on rebuilding - though some say even that number is skewed, as that one dollar is too often spent on building bridges and fortifications required to blow up other stuff.

The point is that LiBC is actually trying to think through the other options and what they might be. The fact that the possibilities aren't up for discussion in the mainstream leads her here.

And we should welcome her. We need far more Canadians willing to try this exercise.

LiBC - Try spending some time reading a few past threads on the subject to acclimatize yourself to the hothouse atmosphere. It should get you ready to make a serious contribution here.

[ 24 June 2008: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 24 June 2008 06:42 AM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I wonder if the publication of such an exposé signals an editorial change of heart at the Star. What has been their previous position on our invasion of Afghanistan and that wonderful Afghan army we are dying to support?

A lot of our media beat the war drums leading up to the invasion of Afghanistan

I have to admit in the Fall - Winter of 2001, I had been convinced the Taliban Regime had to go.

The Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Suppression of Vice (PVSV) issued rules that were enforced by its "religious police".

Women in particular were targets of the Ministry's restrictions, eg the public execution of a woman, known as Zarmina, by the Taliban at the Ghazi Sports Stadium, Kabul

RAWA

quote:
Originally posted by remind:

thought our military was supposed to be fighting "chaos" not crearting it? [/QB]



thanks remind for sharing this

I think in all wars the stated goals of administrations and the military breakdown

e.g. Vietnam, Iraq, etc. There are just too many variables that are not considered, and it is impossible to control the action of every soldier in the field who has been trained to de-humanise the enemny. The de-humanisation transfers to the people they are to protect.

Suspicion, racism, severe-traumatic stress, and a desire from the top- down not to offend their local allies "for the greater good" contribute to these incidents.

[ 24 June 2008: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 24 June 2008 06:58 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
I understand your reaction, unionist, but I think if you step back, you're being a bit tough on him.

I think Lost is a "she", and I agree with you LTJ.

Lost, let me apologize again - that's twice in one hour (!) - please stick around and give us your views. If you actually have evidence of one single significant positive contribution that Canada has made to Afghanistan, with validation from a non-Canadian government funded source, I'd be interested in hearing about it.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4173

posted 24 June 2008 01:50 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think several arguments are being rolled into one and I don't think they are as exclusive as some are making out.

There is a debate about our performance and record there so far -- if we are making matters better or worse.

There is a second debate about whether we should stay. And people on both sides of the first debate may find themselves with different company in this debate. Some may feel unhappy with what we have done so far but feel we should fix the mission- demand UN control rather than UN sanction over the mission and a reconstruction focus.

Then there is the issue of our responses to crimes in progress. It does not matter which side you are on the other two debates- you could be outraged by the failure to respond appropriately to war crimes. The responsibility for that response could rest either with the troops or those giving the orders depending on your view.

No, this is not a single black and white issue even if some aspects clearly are.

That soldiers should not be ordered to ignore crimes is black and white- how they should register their disagreement with orders in a war context is less black and white. What is the correct mission there, if any and whether we should just pull out or change the focus, mandate or control of the mission are also less clear questions particularly since we are already there. I would not assume that a person who disagreed with me on one of these is more or less progressive- I think that is a bit of an arrogant position.
While I think supporting the mission as it is is an extreme position, I think there are many shades of opinions on this between an immediate pull-out and no further involvement and where we are today.

This is one reason I would like to separate the issue of a "don't look, don't tell" order, which to me is clear cut and absolutely wrong, and the other issues about the mission, no matter how passionately held those positions may be. No matter how strongly some feel we are much further from a consensus on those other issues.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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