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» babble   » current events   » national news   » Calgary police say five dead in 'domestic homicide'

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Author Topic: Calgary police say five dead in 'domestic homicide'
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 06:42 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Police have called the deaths of two young children and three adults in a northwest Calgary home a "domestic homicide." The crime scene was so disturbing officers and paramedics had to undergo counselling.

An uninjured one-year-old girl was the only person found alive in the house,

The victims were two children, ages four and six, and three adults in their thirties. Brookwell said police have not yet determined their cause of death.


How many more women and children will have to die at the hands of someone who is supposed to love them before Canadians become outraged enough to insist that stop the violence programs become adequately funded?

He added that officials were greatly disturbed by what they found inside the house.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 29 May 2008 08:14 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Calgary Police Chief Rick Hanson told reporters that no suspect is being sought and the public is not in danger.


Well if violence stopping programs are being slashed then the public DOES have something to worry about.

It's obviously too early to speculate if the public is in danger till the causes of the domestic massacre are in the open.

It's also too early to speculate on which agency if any, is indirectly responsible.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 May 2008 08:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think he is trying to say that the perpetrator is one of those dead in ths house.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 29 May 2008 08:20 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems like there's a spate right now in Calgary. Of course, two stories don't a trend make but still...

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/city/story.html?id=df068dcd-5d7c-4a80-829c-0a4ab619fbe1

quote:
Henault faces seven charges, including assault with a weapon (the car), hit and run and dangerous driving.

She was released on bail two weeks ago on several conditions, including no driving and no consumption of alcohol or drugs. Also, she can't come within six blocks of alleged victim Paul McEachem's southeast home.

The two were separated because of domestic violence when they saw each other at the Blackfoot Truck Stop on May 1.

Henault was talking to her father, who had met her at the east Inglewood location, and McEachem was walking home.

She allegedly drove her vehicle at McEachem and struck him. When he got up and started running away, she drove toward him again, witnesses said.

Henault attempted to drive away but two motorists used their vehicles to box her in, according to a court document.



From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 12:14 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh yes heywood, the 2 events are sooooooooooooo similar.

It is quite obvious what you were attempting to do BTW!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 29 May 2008 12:27 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um.

what?

eta

Nevermind. I see what you're getting at.

Pardon me for thinking that an attempted murder was newsworthy for a Domestic Violence thread.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 29 May 2008 02:12 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

How many more women and children will have to die at the hands of someone who is supposed to love them before Canadians become outraged enough to insist that stop the violence programs become adequately funded?

According to the articles I've read about this incident, there were absolutely no prior indications of violence in the family. How would properly funded "stop violence" programs stop incidents like this one from happening? I do agree that such programs (assuming they're effective) should be properly funded as a matter of principle, but I would imagine that those programs would be more targeted at people who have grown up in violent and/or otherwise abusive environments. How would those programs do anything about people who show no indications of violent behaviour before it's too late?


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Michelle
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posted 29 May 2008 02:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, it's hard to know whether there was any prior violence in the family, given that the people most likely to know about it are all dead, so it's not like anyone can ask them whether the killer had been violent before or threatened violence.

Update to the story.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 02:24 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Stop the Violence programs and other women's programs were properly funded, there would be outreach programs, school programs and youth programs that would be proactively diminishing the notion of acceptable violence against women children as it is expressed through patriarchy entrenched in our systems.

And there are always signs, events like this do not just occur without any prior signs, just because people were not aware of them, nor took note of them, does not mean they were not there.

Education of peoples within ALL communities, to note signs and symptoms, is key to stopping violent acts from esculating to this multiple murder point.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 29 May 2008 02:29 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To Gir Draxon:
quote:
Father might have called for help before murders
Updated Thu. May. 29 2008 5:59 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
Calgary police say they are investigating reports that the man at the centre of an apparent domestic homicide had called his parents days before his death to say he was suffering some kind of mental breakdown.
The bodies of Joshua Lall, his wife Alison, two of their three daughters and tenant Amber Bowerman were discovered at the family's home Wednesday morning. (...)


This is a clear signal of a lethal situation, even when there has been no previous report of violence against a wife or children. These are the men that 'nobody would have thunk'... the ones that easily get visitation and custody privileges, even if they are undergoing depression. Hey, even acknowledged batterers get these paternal "rights" every day.
Yes, as remind reminds us, it IS possible to spot such situations and to intervene, as Joshua Lall's parents could have, if such signals were pointed out in awareness-raising campaigns.
For this, society and governments would have to acknowledge intimate partner/family male violence a priority and we are, sadly, still far from that. Too much money and power and self seem to be at stake.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 29 May 2008 02:31 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A couple of weeks ago we had a presentation to our group from a woman who is working on pilot program with Chimo Crisis Services. Working out of an office at the RCMP detatchment she see's every file that has a domestic violence issue. Her job is to help the victim from being revictimized by the system. She helps them find with housing, councilling, and legal issues among others. This is a big help. It is not uncommon for a spouse to lay serious charges, go to a shelter and end up having to move back with the abuser because there is no option and little help.

quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
How would properly funded "stop violence" programs stop incidents like this one from happening?

Well many victims and potential victims are afraid to make a report because they are scared of the reprucussions.


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 29 May 2008 02:32 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good god Martin. A breakdown is not a defacto sign of violence.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 May 2008 02:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly, remind. For instance, check out this statement by a family friend:

quote:
A family friend, Jennifer Klein, said after the horrific discovery that the Lalls had just visited Klein and her family in Edmonton three weeks ago, and there wasn't a hint of discord.

"Over a weekend, you can't hide (marital problems)," Klein said. "You can't be on your good manners all the time. There wasn't even a hot temper."


If there were proper education about domestic violence and violence against women, then every woman would know that this notion that "you can't hide marital problems" is completely wrong. In fact, you most definitely can hide them, and in many cases women DO hide it from friends and family out of shame, or fear of retaliation from their husband later.

She thinks you can't put on a good show for a weekend? Many women who are abused by their husbands report that their husbands are utterly charming and kind and sweet around other people, and then become nasty when they get their wives and/or kids alone. And abused women generally go along with the sweetness and light around other people because they either a) fear that no one will believe them because no one has seen the side of him that she has, or b) fear retaliation after the weekend is over.

That kind of ignorance of spousal abuse is unacceptable. Women should be taught about abuse from the early teens (maybe even earlier) on.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 29 May 2008 02:37 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Good god Martin. A breakdown is not a defacto sign of violence.
No, it is a sign of someone out out of control and Mr. Lall asked for help.
And while you wait for "defacto" signs - whatever that means in your 4-page book of human psychology - why don't you volunteer to go mop up the blood of the next killing!
I monitor killings of women and children by men in Quebec and this kind of massacre happens every year. It is a textbook case of what some people are trying to call "family suicide", a guy taking out his whole family because he has become so self-involved he sees them as extensions of himself.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 May 2008 02:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
This is a clear signal of a lethal situation, even when there has been no previous report of violence against a wife or children. These are the men that 'nobody would have thunk'... the ones that easily get visitation and custody privileges, even if they are undergoing depression.

People with no history of violence who suffer from depression are not exhibiting signs of being "lethal". Please don't make blanket statements about people who have been diagnosed with mental illnesses again on babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 29 May 2008 03:26 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lall had *not* been diagnosed with mental illness, and no one can dispute today his lethality.Acknowledging, as I suggest, the lethality of people undergoing depression - for themselves and for the people surrounding them - is key to saving their life. Lall has literally asked for this help. Indeed, our reluctance to accept this need, over and above concern for people's image - a very real taboo - may well explain why awareness-raising campaigns forever remain on coroners' wish lists instead of being implemented.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 29 May 2008 03:37 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's BS Martin. Depression and lethality are not intrinsically linked no matter what you say.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 29 May 2008 04:45 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did not use the word "intrinsically", but if you deny a link, please consider that you may be impeding necessary action in support of the tens of thousands of depressed persons - most of them *not* diagnosed - who attempt suicide every year in this country after fruitless calls for help, many of them taking other persons along with them.
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laine lowe
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posted 29 May 2008 04:58 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the CBC Radio evening newscast I was surprised to hear that Alberta has the highest rate of domestic violence against women in the country. This was tacked on to the update of this case.

I think that his call to his parents was a very critical warning sign. It didn't seem as the onset of clinical depression but a recognition that he was heading to a melt-down.


From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 05:24 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It is a textbook case of what some people are trying to call "family suicide", a guy taking out his whole family because he has become so self-involved he sees them as extensions of himself.

Yes, I agree, this ownership/extensions of self that men believe they have over women and children has got to stop!

Last night I heard a woman on the news actually state her sole purpose in life was to be her husband's wife! It is a mentality that is fostered in women and girls and it is not healthy!

And I also cannot stress enough what Michelle said about ability to hide it, of course women have the ability to hide it, and overly "nice" men are not always what they seem to the general public.

I am not surprised at all Laine that the stats are highest in AB, it goes right along with an overly "Christian" ethos. Women are nothing more than what martin noted, extensions of the husband.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 May 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Exactly, remind. For instance, check out this statement by a family friend:

If there were proper education about domestic violence and violence against women, then every woman would know that this notion that "you can't hide marital problems" is completely wrong. In fact, you most definitely can hide them, and in many cases women DO hide it from friends and family out of shame, or fear of retaliation from their husband later.

She thinks you can't put on a good show for a weekend? Many women who are abused by their husbands report that their husbands are utterly charming and kind and sweet around other people, and then become nasty when they get their wives and/or kids alone. And abused women generally go along with the sweetness and light around other people because they either a) fear that no one will believe them because no one has seen the side of him that she has, or b) fear retaliation after the weekend is over.

That kind of ignorance of spousal abuse is unacceptable. Women should be taught about abuse from the early teens (maybe even earlier) on.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


You mean Beauty and Beast might not be the best text for young readers?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 06:32 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You mean Beauty and Beast might not be the best text for young readers?

Nice minimization cueball!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 May 2008 06:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice prejudical hostility to a point clearly related to Michelles point about propogating empowering motifs in early childhood education. Beauty and the Beast is a fairy tale, which is actually a story of abuse, routinely taught in the postive. It is directly the tale of a kidnapped girl who marries and loves her abuser.

Children, as I think you are probably aware are highly impressionable, especially at a young age, and the stories they are told are formative in their psychology. I think you know this, and are just picking a stupid fight.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 06:52 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, I will accpet that clarification, and withdraw my comment of minmization, as I have never read nor watched Beauty and the Beast. I thought it was merely about some girl failing in love with a socially unacceptable man.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 May 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
During his return, he becomes lost in a forest. Seeking shelter, he enters a castle. He finds inside tables laden with food and drink, which have apparently been left for him by the castle's owner. The merchant accepts this gift and is about to leave when he sees a rose garden and recalls that Belle had desired a rose. Upon picking the most lovely rose he finds, the merchant is confronted by a hideous 'Beast', which tells him that for taking his (the Beast's) most precious possession after accepting his hospitality, the merchant must stay his prisoner forever. The merchant begs to be set free, arguing that he had only picked the rose as a gift for his youngest daughter. The Beast agrees to let him go only if the merchant will send his daughter to live in the castle in his place.


In this version its sold/kidnapped


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 07:09 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, thank you for that cueball, but the wikipedia outlines of it do not suggest kidnapping in any given rendition of the story, nor does it portray abuse, other than portraying a woman as her father's chattal.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 29 May 2008 07:30 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe Cueball is thinking about the "Bluebeard' tale, although the latter part of "Beauty and the Beast" does show the heroine caught up in a relationship with a beast and unable to emotionally disentangle herself.
The problem with these stories is that they are perceived by scholars as less warning girls about sexist abuse than as normalizing it as a woman's fate to accept, for "love". Cueball's point, I think.

[ 29 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 May 2008 08:39 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Maybe Cueball is thinking about the "Bluebeard' tale, although the latter part of "Beauty and the Beast" does show the heroine caught up in a relationship with a beast and unable to emotionally disentangle herself.
The problem with these stories is that they are perceived by scholars as less warning girls about sexist abuse than as normalizing it as a woman's fate to accept, for "love". Cueball's point, I think.

Well, not just scholars martin.

I concur that "fairy tales" normalize much to children, boys and girls alike, that should not be normalized. Disney movies in our house ranked up there with Friday the 13th type movies and were not participated in being the viewing audience. Hence my unfamiliarity with Beauty and the Beast.


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scooter
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posted 30 May 2008 06:20 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by laine lowe:
I think that his call to his parents was a very critical warning sign. It didn't seem as the onset of clinical depression but a recognition that he was heading to a melt-down.

A critical warning sign of what? How do you define a "melt-down"?

What would you recommend we do with people that show signs of depression?

Diseases and conditions that can cause symptoms of psychosis are extremely complex. For example, there is NO TEST for schizophrenia.

laine lowe: I'm impressed that you've figure it out from a few media reports. Bravo.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 30 May 2008 07:38 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
A critical warning sign of what? How do you define a "melt-down"?

What would you recommend we do with people that show signs of depression?

laine lowe: I'm impressed that you've figure it out from a few media reports. Bravo.


Uh scooter, perhaps you need to reread laine's post, here it is:

quote:
I think that his call to his parents was a very critical warning sign. It didn't seem as the onset of clinical depression but a recognition that he was heading to a melt-down.

She didn't not actually state he had depression, in fact the opposite.

Moreover, in his call to his parents, it is reported that he stated he had had a mental breakdown. Frankly, I see no difference is the use of the words mental break down or melt-down.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 08:26 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
Diseases and conditions that can cause symptoms of psychosis are extremely complex. For example, there is NO TEST for schizophrenia.

Probably because there is not really a coherent definition for schitzophrenia. Psychiatry as an field really has not progressed far above the level of Tarot Card reading. Even its mode of analysis is riddled with normalized negative constructs.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 30 May 2008 08:40 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
...Psychiatry as an field really has not progressed far above the level of Tarot Card reading....

Good god, Tom Cruise has hijacked Cueball's babble account!

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
WendyL
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posted 30 May 2008 08:45 AM      Profile for WendyL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is there some point to this irrelevant debate? Speculating/guessing/assuming what happened in the lives of this family and the individuals within the family prior to this horrible event? Speculating that this man's father could have saved the situation? Is this thread helping in any way? I've been so frustrated reading it! I'd go back to the top of the thread -- funding for stop the violence programs was suggested. Yes! What about other positive, proactive ideas? Funding for education, social activism against the root causes of such devastation, adequate theoretical understanding of violence against women and children, and so on. Creating a fictional account of suppositions around the specifics of this situation is mental/keyboard masturbation. I'd like to get on with change. Are there other suggestions out there for what each and every one of us can do to make tomorrow a better day?
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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 08:45 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

Good god, Tom Cruise has hijacked Cueball's babble account!

Well then why don't they have a test for Schitzophrenia?

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 30 May 2008 09:36 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
I really don't know what to say about this senseless and inexplicable tragedy, but I was moved to tears by this tribute to Amber Bowerman by a Calgary Herald journalist:
quote:
It's a tragedy that defies explanation, confusing in its senselessness and gut wrenching in its violence. And in the case of Amber Bowerman, someone caught in the cross fire, utterly shocking in its randomness.

On Thursday morning, I spoke -- and sometimes cried -- with Suzanne Trudel [a fellow journalist]. We've never met, but we now share a bond: Amber Bowerman.

We share the immense good fortune of having Amber burst into our lives like a hurricane, bowling us over with her childlike lust for life, her uncompromising kindness to everyone she met and her no-holds-barred belly laugh.

Sadly, we now must share the burden of loss, of trying to process in our hearts, minds and bodies, how such a terrible fate can befall such a brilliant, beautiful human being.

What I feel today, among the multiple layers of shock, sorrow and sympathy, is an overwhelming desire to tell Herald readers about the young woman who was always on my party invite list, of the woman who made me (and everyone else) feel like I was the funniest person on earth, of the friend with a dangerous wit and a dazzling smile.



Read the rest

From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 30 May 2008 09:58 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WendyL:
Is there some point to this irrelevant debate?
Yes, and no, IMV, I find some men really respond to such patriarchial violent manifestations with irrelevant nothings. And frankly, I do not know whether it is because they feel helpless and do not know what to say, or, they recognize violence against other women and children, outside of their lives, as benefitting themselves and want to provide a barrier to concrete actions against it.

Afterall, one can be sure if this many men were dying at the hands of women, something would be being done about it. As truthfully, men control society and tax payers dollars.

quote:
Speculating/guessing/assuming what happened in the lives of this family and the individuals within the family prior to this horrible event?
Actually this is harsh, people need to try and make sense of it, and to deal with it somehow, it impacts us all. Discussing it helps to process it, and I believe it is healthy.

quote:
Speculating that this man's father could have saved the situation?
I did not see any speculation in this thread about that, I saw people noting he had called his parents asking them for help, and they apparently were on their way, but too late.

quote:
Is this thread helping in any way?
Would silence about it help more?

quote:
I've been so frustrated reading it!
me too, however, it is not about me and my feelings of frustration, it is about getting people to recognize that these types of murderous actions and violence against women and children, have to be addressed and not dismissed and minimized as something abnormal, it is not abnormal it happens every minute of every day, and violence against women and children, has to be recognized as being the "normal" for 10's of thousands of women and children in this country alone.

quote:
What about other positive, proactive ideas? Funding for education, social activism against the root causes of such devastation, adequate theoretical understanding of violence against women and children, and so on.
That was all suggested above. But yuntil there is a cxritical mass of people, to stand up and demand it, it won't happen.

quote:
Creating a fictional account of suppositions around the specifics of this situation is mental/keyboard masturbation.
No I do not think it it, I believe it is people trying to process something that is beyond their ability to understand.

quote:
I'd like to get on with change. Are there other suggestions out there for what each and every one of us can do to make tomorrow a better day?
Me too, and what we can do, is actually be engaged with our community and neighbours, and make ourselves aware of signs and symptoms and actively act against them when we see them. Adopt a zero acceptance policy against patriarchy as it is expressed towards women and children, for a start, and start demanding continually that out MLA's, MPP's, and MP's actually take this seriously. If we do not do that then we ourselves are not.

We can also love our children, and other people, unconditionally and that may be the most difficult to acheive.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 10:12 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(Sent to the Calgary Herald)
quote:
...It's a tragedy that defies explanation, confusing in its senselessness and gut wrenching in its violence. And in the case of Amber Bowerman, someone caught in the cross fire, utterly shocking in its randomness...
I don't accept this kind of summation. I know it is reassuring and an expression of sadness - always more acceptable than indignation - but I hear this as a warning not to take male violence at face value. To quote the author it agressively "defies explanation", when I want some; it asserts "senselessness" as some kind of mainstream moral axiom, despite such mass killings happening over and over again, almost always at the hands of family men.

I especially resent the word "randomness" applied to one of the victims, as though somehow the others had it coming, being part of Joshua Lall's dependents. Like the cliché "innocent victims," I hear in it a slur on some of the victims.

I hope the police inquiry helps us understand why all these people, including Ms. Bowerman, were killed; until then, I will resist those who, like Ms. Fortney, apparently wish to suspend and silence explanation and judgment.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 10:31 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cueball:...why don't they have a test for Schitzophrenia?
It may not be a "test" as such, but there are recognized indications, such as hearing voices:
quote:
Hard-working, devoted father Joshua Lall heard voices in his head and believed he was possessed by the devil prior to the mass killing that claimed his life and four others, sources told the Calgary Herald.

Police sources said that about two weeks ago, Lall began acting strangely and work stresses seemed to be bothering him a great deal.

Others familiar with the case were more specific, saying Lall expressed fears he was possessed by the devil.(...)


[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 30 May 2008 10:32 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
(Sent to the Calgary Herald)
I don't accept this kind of summation.

I do not either, it frames conceptions to skew the the facts of patriarchy entrenched in society and what it is doing to our society. However, do you have a link?

quote:
I hope the police inquiry helps us understand why all these people, including Ms. Bowerman, were killed; until then, I will resist those who, like Ms. Fortney, apparently wish to suspend and silence explanation and judgment.

For women, in order for some of us to not get overwhelmed with the fear that we could be next, we sometimes distance ourselves into believing such things. It is not helpful.


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martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 11:22 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The link is the one above ("Read the rest") in John K's post.
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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 11:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It may not be a "test" as such, but there are recognized indications, such as hearing voices:

I am not really taking a side on the main issue that you are addressing in this thread. I think at the very least we can see that Lall was having some problems. On this I agree. My point actually was more about the whole nature of psychiatric analysis, and the psychiatric profession as a whole and its vagueness, and the problems with how it frames peoples personal psychological dilemas. This is fairly seperate from the issue you are talking about which is wether or not there were indications that Lall was going off.

It sound like there may have been.

I am just a little bit concerned that there might be a little bit too much faith in the psychiatric profession, and I would not rely to heavily on that view of the world for a number of reasons. Nor their terminology. They have yet for example to have come up with any kind of coherent definition of schitzophrenia for example. Reflecting on this, it might be that if Lall had been in a different social station, his mental state might have been quickly identified as corrupted, whereas the relative "normalcy" of Lall's surrounding might have acted to hide his problems from being apparent. Because he "appeared" normal, people did not take notice of his eccentricities.

They say the difference between someone who is rich who talks to themself, and someone who is poor that does the same, is that in the first case the person is eccentric, and in the second crazy.

I say this based on the presumption that Lall murdered his wife and children and then killed himself.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 11:44 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remind, if you meant a link to write the Calgary Herald, the addy is letters@theherald.canwest.com
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remind
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posted 30 May 2008 11:54 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh, thanks Martin, I did not see JohnK's post, at all, as we had cross posted.

As for Lall's thinking he was possessed by the devil, isn't it fucking wonderful what religion does to people?

Also, I doubt it was a random killing, or that she was caught in the cross fire, I would think she heard what was going on upstairs and tried to intervene.


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 11:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You saying religion drove him crazy Remind? People who are distressed can pick up on all kinds of things to manifest it.

I know a guy who says satelites are talking to him all the time. Could I say; "see what modern technololgy resulting from empircal science does to people", too?


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RosaL
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posted 30 May 2008 12:09 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You saying religion drove him crazy Remind? People who are distressed can pick up on all kinds of things to manifest it.

I know a guy who says satelites are talking to him all the time. Could I say; "see what modern technololgy resulting from empircal science does to people", too?


A nice point.

At the risk of sounding heartless, it's interesting to look at the ways people interpret their distress in different times and places, that is, in different social conditions.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


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remind
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posted 30 May 2008 12:10 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The notion of the "devil" is a product of religion, and it is fostered by religions, and he is not the only one who either;
a) blames the devil for their actions
b) or has thought they were possessed by the devil,
c) obsesses about the devil instead of seeking help for medical and situational conditions

In fact, there was a program on TV this week on about how the Catholic Church is becoming more involved these days with exorcizing the devil from people and they are training more priests to do it.

Now this is troubling, as we will, and do have, some religious folk ignoring what the real causes for such things are.

Moreover, I do not want to, and will not, get into a metadebate about any side topic here with you, so I will not address your strawman postulation.


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MCunningBC
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posted 30 May 2008 12:38 PM      Profile for MCunningBC        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
If there were proper education about domestic violence and violence against women, then every woman would know that this notion that "you can't hide marital problems" is completely wrong. In fact, you most definitely can hide them, and in many cases women DO hide it from friends and family out of shame, or fear of retaliation from their husband later.

She thinks you can't put on a good show for a weekend? Many women who are abused by their husbands report that their husbands are utterly charming and kind and sweet around other people, and then become nasty when they get their wives and/or kids alone. And abused women generally go along with the sweetness and light around other people because they either a) fear that no one will believe them because no one has seen the side of him that she has, or b) fear retaliation after the weekend is over.

That kind of ignorance of spousal abuse is unacceptable. Women should be taught about abuse from the early teens (maybe even earlier) on.



I don't dispute anything you're saying, but it does raise a question. If the family is not showing any apparent signs of conflict to other friends or relations, then what are the symptoms others should look for?


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 12:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
The notion of the "devil" is a product of religion, and it is fostered by religions, and he is not the only one who either;
a) blames the devil for their actions
b) or has thought they were possessed by the devil,
c) obsesses about the devil instead of seeking help for medical and situational conditions

In fact, there was a program on TV this week on about how the Catholic Church is becoming more involved these days with exorcizing the devil from people and they are training more priests to do it.

Now this is troubling, as we will, and do have, some religious folk ignoring what the real causes for such things are.

Moreover, I do not want to, and will not, get into a metadebate about any side topic here with you, so I will not address your strawman postulation.


Then why did you say religion drove him crazy. It is you who dropped in this side topic. I was pretty much with you up until that point. You have no idea what drove him crazy. The notion of satelites beeming messages into peoples heads is also a common dellusion.

In fact, the whole discussion here is based on a lot of unsubstantiated suspicion about what went on here.

Nor would I put any faith in psychiatrists ability to prevent someone who was distressed from harming someone, or their ability to actually help someone who is disturbed. No more faith that is than I would in a priest exorcising deamons.

The psychiatric profession has numerous failures in this regard. To many to count frankly. People who have been "diagnosed", are in treatment, and who are seeking help, that then go out and kill their families. This happens too.

In fact, I am not even sure that it can be established the disturbed people are actually that much more dangerous than people who are not, though I think it can be established that there is more likelyhood that people who harm other people will be identified as crazy, clinically speaking.


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remind
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posted 30 May 2008 12:58 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, telling people you think you are possessed by the devil would be a good indication of something wrong, so friends saying there were no signs are not being quite accurate now are they?

Also, too much niceness and happy happy joy joy can also be signs of a coverage of something, people are NOT perfect, and usually when they appear to be ALL the time something is be covered up.


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martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 01:09 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also satellites beam things into MY mind all the time: phone signals, TV retransmissions, through various transducers.
Seriously, remind's point is not that religion drove Luall crazy: she merely wrote "what religion does to people", which I interpret as such: it gives people undergoing mental distress - such as 'voices in their head' - a bogus interpretation of what is happening, which prevents them understanding what is going on and seeking appropriate help in time.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 01:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well of course, I agree its a strong indication that something is wrong. On the other hand, it is not always clear in families what to do about it. Very likely if this fellow had a propensity to these kinds of dellusion, then he has had them for a long time, and exhibited them before, but never acted out. Many people have family members with these kinds of problems, and it is not always the case that they result in multiple homocide. In most cases they do not, and the family struggles with the issue, as a duty to the people they love, and in most cases they do not result in these kinds of events.

So, are we actually sure that a diagnosis and an intervention would have succeeded here? Most likely a psychiatrist would handed out a bunch of pills billed the government, and then sent him home, since otherwise he was a "normal" respectable man with a family". It would be up to him likely if he took the pacifiers... and so... it might not really have changed much at the end of the day.


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martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 01:18 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what is your prognosis whenever we aren't 'actually sure' that intervention would succeed, Cueball? Do you feel that Luall's parents made a mistake in buying a ticket on the next airplane?
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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 01:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no prognosis. I am just asserting some thing that I know also to be possibilities. I am not going condemn some people whose lives have just been completely destroyed for some possible misjudgement they may have made based on some tabloid newspaper clippings.
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remind
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posted 30 May 2008 01:25 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stop cueball, just stop, you are putting words in my mouth, that were not expressed by me. The devil is a religious construct, and that belief has done much damage to people, the majority of them women. Your strawman satillite scenario is just that.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


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Coyote
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posted 30 May 2008 01:29 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Acknowledging, as I suggest, the lethality of people undergoing depression - for themselves and for the people surrounding them - is key to saving their life

Martin, you're an idiot.


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RosaL
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posted 30 May 2008 01:30 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Stop cueball, just stop, you are putting words in my mouth, that were not expressed by me. The devil is a religious construck, and that belief has done much damage to people, the majority of them women.

As has the "chemical imbalance" construct.


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 01:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I happen to think that your approach to religion is a little harmful, actually. I don't think that religion is the root of all evil. I don't even think its relevant particularly. I think religion is just one of the many things that people who are freaked out pick on to obsess about.

I know a guy who is obssessed with the Ossgoode Hall Law school, he calls the lawyers there, the "Wizards of Oz," I don't think that the law is to blame for his dellusions, though at one time he was a promising lawyer.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 01:39 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Martin, you're an idiot.
Oh come on, try a little harder, we know you can do it...

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Coyote
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posted 30 May 2008 01:41 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alright. Fuck you.
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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 01:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh! You swore.
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Coyote
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posted 30 May 2008 01:45 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He pissed me off.
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remind
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posted 30 May 2008 01:53 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
...remind's point is not that religion drove Luall crazy: she merely wrote "what religion does to people", which I interpret as such: it gives people undergoing mental distress - such as 'voices in their head' - a bogus interpretation of what is happening, which prevents them understanding what is going on and seeking appropriate help in time.

Exactly that and more.


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, fine. It seemed like you were specifically pointing towards religion as a culprit, as you had written; "isn't it fucking wonderful what religion does to people."
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unionist
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posted 30 May 2008 02:15 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I know a guy who says satelites are talking to him all the time. Could I say; "see what modern technololgy resulting from empircal science does to people", too?

You're right. When I hear voices in my head, I don't attribute them to the devil. I just turn off my bluetooth.


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 02:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for bogus interpretation of what is happening, I doubt more than 1 in 10 psychiatrists would say anything even close to; "Well my boy, your problem is that you are being run over by white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy, and the particular psychological dissonance you are experiencing may be the result of the fact that almost everything you have been taught is a lie, and you have been abused and degraded for so long by your boring job, and your complete social isolation, and competative work environment, that you are actually begining to believe that the source of your problem are the only people in the world who give a shit about you."

Probably, a psychiatrist would do exactly the opposite, and blame it on his mother, and then say, "Here take these pills, they are called Soma. Make sure you go to church on Sunday, and don't forget to be a good little prol on Monday. Social stability is important."

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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scooter
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posted 30 May 2008 02:32 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: scooter ]


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RosaL
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posted 30 May 2008 02:34 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
As for false constructions of what the problem is, I doubt more than 1 in 10 would say; "Well my boy, your problem is that you are being run over by white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy, and the particular psychological dissonance you are experiencing is a result that almost everything you have been taught is a lie, and you have been abused and degraded for so long by your boring job, and your complete social isolation, and competative work environment, that you are actually begining to believe that the source of your problem are the only people in the world who give a shit about you is the problem."

Probably, a psychiatrist would do exactly the opposite, and blame it on his mother.


I agree. I spent years in that system before I finally saw through it (before it's ideological function became clear to me, I mean). But there's no way it would be anywhere near 1 in 10. And if the patient were poor, the psychiatrist would probably just write a prescription.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 02:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is very little functional opening for the factor of societal stress as being a primary factor in western psychological diagnosis. In fact, the onus is generally placed upon the individual as the source of the problem, as well as their domestic relationships, which of course is just added stress.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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RosaL
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posted 30 May 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
There is very little functional opening for the factor of societal stress as being a primary factor in psychological breakdown in western psychological diagnosis. In fact, the onus is generally placed upon the individual as the source of the problem, as well as their domestic relationships, which of course is just added stress.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


There apparently used to be something called "radical psychology". But I think it's a mere shadow of it's former self. Nonetheless, I think psychology is more open to this than psychiatry....

This is a neglected area, it seems to me, though
this person might be interesting ....


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 03:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting link.

quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

You're right. When I hear voices in my head, I don't attribute them to the devil. I just turn off my bluetooth.


Btw this was a laff.


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mahmud
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posted 30 May 2008 03:00 PM      Profile for mahmud     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And while you wait for "defacto" signs - whatever that means in your 4-page book of human psychology - why don't you volunteer to go mop up the blood of the next killing! -By M.D.

Wow! is it necessary to spoil a very good discussion by denigrating and mocking?


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RosaL
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posted 30 May 2008 03:05 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Interesting link.

Btw this was a laff.


Yes, that was good, unionist

If anyone's interested, I have a book by this woman (the one whose blog I linked). It's a pdf. (At one time, at least, she was offering it at no cost. I haven't read it yet. In fact, I'd forgotten it until a few minutes ago.)

Here's her "about" stuff:

quote:
I am a practicing physician, I belong to the National Writers Union, UAW Local 1981, and I am a founding member of International Health Workers for People Over Profit.

I am the author of Striking Flint: Genora (Johnson) Dollinger Remembers the 1936-1937 General Motors Sit-Down Strike (1996), Market Madness and Mental Illness (1998), POWER and Powerlessness (2006) and Class, Health and Health Care (2008).

My primary interest is uncovering how health is affected by social relationships. I have been writing and speaking on this subject for more than 30 years.

My articles are archived on this blog and also on Counterpunch, ZNet, Truthout, Coldtype and Dissident Voice.


[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


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Sven
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posted 30 May 2008 03:08 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ideally, we could draw a reliable predictive connection between the abnormal mental condition of people (whether it is depression, schizophrenia, or what-have-you) and future homicidal (or other violent) behavior. But, as Michelle has correctly pointed out, not everyone (or even a majority of people) with depression, schizophrenia, or other mental conditions is violent or will become violent. On top of that, there are no reliable means of accurately and consistently identifying those particular individuals who do have an abnormal mental condition who are likely (let alone certain) to become violent.

That all being said, if everyone with an abnormal mental condition could be fully treated to the best of science’s ability, some degree of violence would be reduced. Violence would not be eliminated by such comprehensive treatment because (1) not all abnormal mental conditions can be cured (at best, some can only be managed) and (2) not all violence is caused by persons with abnormal mental conditions.

With regard to (2), there are many other factors that lead to violence that have nothing (or little) to do with a medical condition. Those include anger, hatred of women, prejudice, greed and entitlement.

To “treat” those factors prophylactically—once they already exist in a person—is probably even more difficult than medically treating mental abnormalities. Is anger management treatment more or less successful than treating, say, depression? I suppose it depends on the degree of the anger relative to the degree of the depression. If a man already hates women, how do you treat that?

What about prospectively preventing the creation of those conditions in individuals in the first place? Education has a lot of value. But, it’s not foolproof. Attempting to prevent the development of a hatred for women, educationally, will likely be effective for many boys but not for others.

So, whether we are talking about mental abnormalities or factors that are not medical, there are limits in what can be accomplished to prevent violence. Humans are not programmable robots, after all. But, that doesn’t mean there aren't many things than can, and should, be done to reduce it as much as possible.

But, this is an interesting discussion. Look forward to reading other views and thoughts.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 03:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
Ideally, we could draw a reliable predictive connection between the abnormal mental condition of people (whether it is depression, schizophrenia, or what-have-you) and future homicidal (or other violent) behavior. But, as Michelle has correctly pointed out, not everyone (or even a majority of people) with depression, schizophrenia, or other mental conditions is violent or will become violent. On top of that, there are no reliable means of accurately and consistently identifying those particular individuals who do have an abnormal mental condition who are likely (let alone certain) to become violent.

Exactly. So in other words after nearly 100 years of trying psychiatry can show no meaningful results. And yet we empower these people with licenses to hand out powerful mind-altering drugs (which are by the way not the least bit interesting), and the right to take away the personal rights and freedoms of people, while also trying to convince the general public that they make useful interventions into the social order.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 03:20 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used to be enthralled by this Thomas Szasz brand of ultraliberalism until I met a LOT of people who wouldn't have been able to survive without those much-maligned antidepressors.
Yes, yes I know... so many minions lost when one wants to overthrow the system...

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 03:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree its hard to knuckle under and dish out coffee and donuts year after year for minimum wage, and not be on drugs. If your survival depends on that job, yeah I can see why it might be necessary, but the fact remains that if nearly 1/3rd of Americans need psychiatric drugs to survive, then the problem is with the society, not the people in it.

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 03:43 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree... and not just for your stereotypical prole. Luall was an aspiring architect, cramming for an important exam. He did signal his symtoms and ask for help. Couldn't he have had it despite all our educated judgments about psychiatry? You misunderstood me above. I wasn't blaming his parents: I feel they did a right thing by taking a plane into Calgary. But I wouldn't want to stand in the shoes of anyone who might have dissuaded Lall from phoning a psych help line.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 30 May 2008 04:09 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the autopsy results were just announced on CTV Edmonton's 5:00pm news.

He attacked andd murdered the tenant in the basement first, apparently surprising her when she entered the door coming home from Banff and she never "stood a chance" as they police stated.

He then went after the 2 daughters and the mother apparently died defending them in the master bedroom, he went on to the 1 year olds bedroom, and killed himself.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 30 May 2008 04:33 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't even imagine what went on in that household that day and I can only think of how much his wife suffered.

As for my mentioning his parents, I do not blame them as scooter suggested. They got on the first available flight. I can only sympathize with their horror.

I think mental illness is still considered to much of a taboo by our society. In an ideal world, he would have checked into a hospital emergency and asked himself to be committed for psych evaluation once he started hearing voices. For sure, there are many things I disagree with when it comes to treating or even defining mental illness, but it seems obvious that he had a major break down and needed intervention. I wish he had recognized it himself before this tragedy happened.


From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 30 May 2008 04:34 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I used to be enthralled by this Thomas Szasz brand of ultraliberalism until I met a LOT of people who wouldn't have been able to survive without those much-maligned antidepressors.
Yes, yes I know... so many minions lost when one wants to overthrow the system...

I don't belong to the Szasz school of thought and I"m no liberal. I haven't formed my views on this from old penguin paperbacks. I formed them in the midst of my own life and the lives of others. I didn't see things this way because I was a marxist - I became a marxist in good part because of what I began to see.

I've met some people who, it seemed to me, actually did have a medical problem: they were "mentally ill". I've met many more ("a LOT") whose problems weren't medical - they had a social basis. Many - and perhaps most - of these wouldn't have been able to survive without their drugs (and they were a good deal stronger than anti-depressants). I certainly don't begrudge them what they need to survive. And what Cueball said. And certainly they need help, both personal and political. They are casualties of the system.

There are some mental health commissions operated by business interests. They make very interesting reading! But I don't have time to look for them tonight. (I may have one such report on my hard drive.)

[ 30 May 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 30 May 2008 06:33 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by laine lowe:
I can't even imagine what went on in that household that day and I can only think of how much his wife suffered.

As for my mentioning his parents, I do not blame them as scooter suggested. They got on the first available flight. I can only sympathize with their horror.

I think mental illness is still considered to much of a taboo by our society. In an ideal world, he would have checked into a hospital emergency and asked himself to be committed for psych evaluation once he started hearing voices. For sure, there are many things I disagree with when it comes to treating or even defining mental illness, but it seems obvious that he had a major break down and needed intervention. I wish he had recognized it himself before this tragedy happened.


Good post LL. You're right that he should have checked in an ideal world.

However, being diagnosed myself with a mental illness, hospitalizing yourself is not the answer. The suggestion of hospitalization could potentially trigger a subject in psychosis.

You're right that intervention is necessary but only if done right and the science is lousy.

I too wish it wasn't such a stigma to people and could be discussed more openly.

And to Cueball, sorry for FU greeting, your posts in this thread hit home. Don't take that happy pill.


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martin dufresne
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posted 30 May 2008 07:47 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok where is the door leading back to concern for the four people he assassinated?
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 30 May 2008 07:49 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
ok where is the door leading back to concern for the four people he assassinated?

It's still wide open, don't forget to shut the one you opened on your way out.


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RevolutionPlease
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posted 30 May 2008 07:53 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This act was disgusting and I hope it leads to more funding for "societal illness". To tie this into "mental health" is disgusting to me.

It is plain patriarchy and misogny, please stick to what you know.


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MCunningBC
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posted 30 May 2008 09:57 PM      Profile for MCunningBC        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Exactly. So in other words after nearly 100 years of trying psychiatry can show no meaningful results.


If your estimate of the value of psychiatry is accurate, what does this say about the value of psychiatric analyses and reports in trials and parole decisions? What does it say about the practicalities of rehabilitation for offenders?


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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2008 10:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's all pretty much unsubstantiated speculation on the behalf of the individual specialists, and his or her particular biases, really. This is why for instance, we will see competing psychiatric assessments in courts, which of course the court must then evaluate. Both specialist views are then basicly nullified and the primary issue of the case go forward. Some bias might pertain to whatever specialist is the most convincing, or has the more prestigious track record.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mahmud
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posted 31 May 2008 03:05 AM      Profile for mahmud     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think mental illness is still considered to much of a taboo by our society. In an ideal world, he would have checked into a hospital emergency and asked himself to be committed for psych evaluation once he started hearing voices. For sure, there are many things I disagree with when it comes to treating or even defining mental illness, but it seems obvious that he had a major break down and needed intervention. I wish he had recognized it himself before this tragedy happened. -By laine lowe

I agree. Unfortunately, for many people, taking the psychiatry road constitutes the kiss of death to their careers and aspirations. Rightly though, as that is our sad societal reality.


From: Nepean | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
WendyL
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posted 31 May 2008 04:49 AM      Profile for WendyL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I stand behind my previous post. Despite remind's responses, I don't see much in the way of processing or positive action in this thread. Clearly, I'm in the wrong place, and I'll leave you to it.
From: PEI Canada | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 31 May 2008 04:57 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MCunningBC: If the family is not showing any apparent signs of conflict to other friends or relations, then what are the symptoms others should look for?

From Springtide's website (formerly Education Wife Assault):

quote:

Look out for men who:

* Do not listen to you, ignore you or talk over you.
* Sit or stand too close to you, making you uncomfortable and seem to enjoy it.
* Do only what they want or push you to get what they want.
* Express anger and violence towards women either through words or physically.
* Have a bad attitude toward women.
* Are overly possessive or jealous.
* Drink or use drugs heavily.
* Have a reputation for "scoring"


Springtide

Granted some of this advice is meant for women who have just begun dating someone, and maybe at young women. And point 4 is extremely obvious.

But points one and two are about boundary pushing, assertion, and taking control, something most men are taught and internalize as their "natural position" and not just in relationships. I bet a family could spend the weekend and display that dynamic and it's not seen as anything outside the ordinary. And, of course, not all controlling men are abusers, but all abusers are controlling in some way.

The anti violence against women (VAW) field has been coming closer and closer to the point of including more prevention and education services aimed at young men, and adult men, as well as continuing to provide emergency services to women.

Women and children can be removed from violent home forever. Although yes, more resources are needed to rebuild their lives and hearts, that's only one side of the issue. We most desperately need education and change in the actions and behaviours of men.

A friend of mine in the VAW field once said we shouldn't be here. We shouldn't be here, doing this work, because the only reason we're here is because horrors have occurred and are allowed to continue to occur.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 31 May 2008 05:17 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Project Horizon in Virginia, USA:

quote:

28 Signs of Abusers
Below are a list of behaviors that are seen in people who are abusive. The last five signs listed are almost always seen only if the person is a batterer, if the person has several of the other behaviors (say three or more), there is a strong potential for physical violence. The more signs the person has, the more likely the person is a batterer. In some cases, a batterer may have only a couple of behaviors that the woman can recognize, but they are very exaggerated (eg extreme jealousy over ridiculous things). Initially, the batterer will try to explain his/her behavior as signs of love and concern, and a woman may be flattered at first. As time goes on, the behaviors become more severe and serve to dominate the woman. These signs may also be present in women's lesbian relationships.

1. Unemployed or Underemployment. Underemployment is not necessarily an objective phenomenon; it may be the subjective response to the man's failing to meet his own expectations. Educational and occupational attainment frequently is less than wife's, such status discrepancies are painful even should the husband bring home a higher salary.

2. Emotional Dependency. Emotional dependency on the spouse is usually not recognized or understood, but is expressed through demands for constant reassurance and gratification. This may explain in part why spouse abuse often begins during wife's pregnancy.

3. High Investment in Marriage. Wants to preserve marriage at any cost and will go to great lengths to do so. In the event of separation or divorce, tends to immediately replace lost spouse with a new partner.

4. Boundaries. Violates your personal space. Intimidates you by getting too close. Touches, pinches, grabs you against your will.

5. Quick Involvement. Sweeps you off your feet. Love at first sight. "You're the only one for me." Desperately pressures you for a commitment so you're engaged or living together in less than 6 months.

6. Controlling Behavior. Controls where you go, what you do, with whom and for how long. Controls money and money decisions, won't allow you to share expenses or refuses to work and won't share expenses. Protective to the point of controlling. Says he's angry when you're "late" because he "cares." Takes your car keys, won't let you go to church, work, or school.

7. Jealousy. Angry about your relationship with other men, women, even children and family. This insecurity and possessiveness causes him to accuse you of flirting or having affairs, to call frequently or drop by to check up on you, even check your car mileage or have you followed.

8. Abusive Family of Origin. Was physically, sexually or emotionally abused as a child or witnessed spouse abuse. He sees violence as normal behavior, a natural part of family life.

9. Low Self-Esteem. Guards his fragile sense of self by acting tough and macho. Imagines you threaten his manhood. Damages your self-esteem, demeans you growth, demands your silence.

10. Alcohol/Drug Abuse. Abuses alcohol/drugs, tries to get you drunk, berates you if you won't get high. He may deny his drug problem and refuse to get help. Don't think you can change him or that alcohol/drug abuse causes violent behavior. They are two separate problems.

11. Difficulty Expressing Emotions. Unable to identify feelings and express them directly and appropriately. He may say he's "hurt" and sulk when he's really angry. He displaces anger at his boss or himself onto you.

12. Blames Others for His Feelings or Problems. Believes others are out to get him and he's the victim. Blames you for everything that goes wrong. Will say "You make me mad," "You make me happy," "I can't help getting angry" to manipulate you. Holds you responsible for his suicidal or self-abusive behavior.

13. Hypersensitivity. Quick temper, unable to handle frustration without getting angry, easily insulted. Will "rant and rave" about minor things like traffic tickets or request to do chores.

14. Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Seems like two different people with mood swings from nice to explosive. May change his behavior around the guys. May be very sociable around others and only abusive with you.

15. Unrealistic Expectations. Very dependent on you for all his physical and emotional needs ("You're all I need"). Expects you to live up to his ideals of a perfect partner, mother, lover, friend.

16. Rigid Gender Roles. Expects a woman to stay at home, serve and obey him. Gets angry if you don't fulfill his wishes and anticipate his needs. Speaks for you. He thinks it's OK for men to keep women "in line" by force or intimidation.

17. Rigid Religious Beliefs. Justifies rigid sex roles and the physical/emotional/sexual domination of women and children with strict or distorted interpretations of scripture.

18. Disrespect for Women in General. Ridicules and insults women, sees women as stupid and inferior to men, tells sexist jokes ("dumb blond", "PMS" jokes). Refers to women in derogatory or non-human terms ("babe", "chick", "fox", "bitch") or as specific parts of anatomy, de-values women's accomplishments and work, acts like women are second-class citizens.

19. Emotional Abuse. He may ignore your feelings, continually criticize you and call you names like "fat, ugly, stupid" curse and yell at you, belittle your accomplishments, manipulate you with lies, contradictions, and crazy-making tactics, humiliate you in private or public, regularly threaten to leave or tell you to leave, keep you awake or wake you up to argue or verbally abuse you.

20. Isolation. An acquaintance rapist will try to separate you from others to a secluded spot. Batterers will try to keep you from working or attending school, move you to a rural area, restrict your use of the phone or car. He'll try to cut you off from men, women, family and children by saying "You're a whore," "You're a lesbian," "You're tied to your parent's apron strings," or "You're spoiling the kids."

21. Reliance on Pornography. Rapists, child molesters and men who sexually abuse or rape their wives often have an abundance of pornographic literature, photographs, magazines, or videos. They may want to involve you in their interest by photographing you or taking you to pornographic movies or shops.

22. Sexual Abuse. Refuses platonic relationship if dating, uses "playful" force in sex, uses sulking or anger to manipulate you into having sex, coerces or forces you to have sex or hurts you during sex, demands sex when you're scared, ill, tired or starts to have sex when you're asleep, drunk, or unable to give consent.

23. Cruelty to Animals, Children, or Others. Teases, bullies, abuses or harshly punishes animals, children, elderly, weaker people or other women. Is insensitive to other's pan. Tortures or kills pets to feel powerful or hurt you. Threatens to kidnap the children if you leave. Punishes or deprives the children when angry at you. Punishes the children for behavior they're incapable of (whipping a 2 year-old for wet diapers).

24. Past Violence. * Any history of violence to "solve" problems. Justifies hitting or abusing women in the past, but "they made me do it." Friends, relatives or ex-partners say he's abusive (Batterers beat any woman they're with. You didn't cause it and you can't control it or cure it).

25. Fascination with Weapons. * Plays with guns, knives, or other lethal weapons, threatening to "get even" with you or others.

26. Threats of Violence. * Any threats of physical force to control you or make you do something should be taken seriously. He may threaten to hurt you or your family. Non-batterers do not say things like "I'll kill you" or "I'll break your neck."

27. Breaking or Striking Objects.* Punishes you by breaking loved objects, terrorizes you into submission (If he doesn't want you to be a student, he may destroy school books or break lamps). Non-batterers do not beat on tables, punch holes in walls, destroy furniture, throw objects at you to threaten you. The message is "You're next! You're just an object I can control and I can break you like our china."

28. Any Force During an Argument.* Hurts you in anger or in "play", pushing , shoving, pulling, grabbing you by the collar, holding you down, restraining you from leaving the room, slapping, punching, hitting, kicking, or burning. This cycle of violence is followed by a "honeymoon" period, then an escalation of tension and more violence. The episodes of violence will get more frequent, more intense, and will not stop on their own.

Compiled by Sandy Meadow. Women's Center. Old Dominion University.

* Almost always seen only if the person is a batterer.


Project Horizon


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 31 May 2008 05:22 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If anyone is wondering, yes I'm spamming. Spamming this thread back to the topic and the issue.

quote:

What is Domestic Violence?

Domestic violence is when one person does a variety of things to control another person in an intimate relationship. The shift in power can happen very slowly, over a period of time, so that the other person cannot even remember when it happened. Or it can happen very quickly after there is some sort of commitment or some change in the level of intimacy.

Many people wonder if what is happening to them is domestic violence because their partner has never hit them. Physical abuse is probably what most people think of when they think about domestic violence, but it is just one of the many ways that your partner might try to gain power and control in your relationship.

Ways a person might try to gain power and control over their partner include:

* Isolation - making it hard for you to see your friends and family; telling you that your friends and family cause problems in the relationship or are trying to "come between you."

* Economic abuse - having complete control over the money; making you account for every penny you spend; taking your money from you.

* Verbal, emotional, psychological abuse - calling you names; putting you down or embarrassing you in front of other people; criticizing your abilities as a partner or parent.

* Intimidation - making you afraid with a look, action, or gesture; getting you to do something by reminding you about "what happened last time."

* Coercion and threats - showing you a weapon and threatening to use it on you; threatening to "out" you to family, friends, or employers if you are gay or lesbian; threatening to harm your family, friends, or anyone you might go to for help.

* Physical abuse - pushing, grabbing, hitting, slapping, punching, or kicking you.

* Sexual abuse - forcing you to have sex when you don't want to; making you engage in sexual acts that make you uncomfortable; forcing you to engage in prostitution.

* Using children - undermining your authority with your children; threatening to take the children away from you by kidnapping or getting custody of them; "pumping" your children for information about you.

* Minimizing, denying, blaming - making you think the abuse is your fault; saying the abuse was caused by stress, alcohol, or problems at work; denying that the abuse happened at all.


NYS OPDV


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 31 May 2008 06:28 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In Toronto:

Sistering

Toronto Rape Crisis Centre/ Multicultural Women Against Rape

Assaulted Women's Helpline: They serve all of Ontario at their 800 number.

In Vancouver:

Vancouver Rape Relief

Women Against Violence Against Women (WAVAW)

In Montreal:

SOS Violence Conjugale

If anyone knows other services, please link them.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 31 May 2008 07:20 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pacific Centre Family Services Association

Victoria, BC

Tel: (250) 478-8357
Toll Free: 1-866-478-8357
E-Mail: pacificcentre@pcfsa.org

Nanaimo Women’s Resources Society,

Phone: 250–753–0633
285 Selby Street
Nanaimo, BC

Prince George & District Elizabeth Fry Society

1575 – 5th Avenue
Prince George, BC V2L 3L9
Phone (250) 563-1113 Fax (250) 563-8765

#205 - 350 Barlow Avenue
Quesnel, BC V2J 2C1
Phone (250) 991-0992 Fax (250) 991-0995

Box 316
Burns Lake, BC V0J 1E0
Phone (250) 692-7559 Fax (250) 692-7566

Kelowna Women's Resource Centre

Telephone: 762-2355
kelwomenscentre@telus.net

The Central Okanagan Emergency Shelter Society

Women's Resource Group Society

Kamloops, BC

Contact: kwrgs@telus.net

Phone: (250) 374-3949

Kamloop's Women’s Emergency Shelter


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 31 May 2008 07:22 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
We most desperately need education and change in the actions and behaviours of men.

Clearly, the behavior of men has to change in order for violence against women (and violence generally) to be reduced.

For those men who exhibit the types of characteristics that you list, are there an existing means of successfully treating them so that they no longer hold to those behaviors and beliefs?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 31 May 2008 07:34 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not according to research, and this stands to reason since sexism and misogyny are not a pathology to be "treated". One can try to reeducate, build empathy to others, but this isn't treatment. The only thing that has been seen to actually reduce such bahaviours is accountability, consequences for the assaults. As long as society allows violence to remain beneficial for the privileged, they will go on using it, as a matter of course.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 31 May 2008 07:42 AM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In York Region:

Sandgate Women's Shelter

Yellow Brick House

Family Services York Region

quote:
Family Services York Region, offers a program to assist individuals to stop their abusive behavior towards partners.

York Region Violence against Women Coordinating Committee

Women's Centre of York Region

Women's Support Network of York Region

For all of Canada:

Shelternet

quote:
Provides reliable information for abused women in Canada, including safety plans, in 10 languages.

From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 31 May 2008 07:54 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
The only thing that has been seen to actually reduce such bahaviours is accountability, consequences for the assaults.

So, deterrence is part of the solution. Although, locking up a man after he has killed someone is an unsatisfactory solution because it's reactionary (someone has already been killed).


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 31 May 2008 08:28 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
As for bogus interpretation of what is happening, I doubt more than 1 in 10 psychiatrists would say anything even close to; "Well my boy, your problem is that you are being run over by white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy, and the particular psychological dissonance you are experiencing may be the result of the fact that almost everything you have been taught is a lie, and you have been abused and degraded for so long by your boring job, and your complete social isolation, and competative work environment, that you are actually begining to believe that the source of your problem are the only people in the world who give a shit about you."
Gee Cueball, you seem to know me so well - perhaps you are clairvoyant. My therapist says things much like this frequently, although I couldn't say if he is representative of the profession.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 31 May 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Closing for length.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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