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Author Topic: Have the Tories screwed Obama?
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 March 2008 08:44 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's possible that Clinton will win Ohio and Texas today where a few days ago Obama seemed likely to win at least one of those states. If there's a turnaround it may be because of meddling by some Tory hack in Ottawa who leaked an inaccurate version of a meeting between an Obama campaign official and the Canadian embassy on NAFTA. Now I wouldn't be surprised to learn Obama is overstating his opposition to NAFTA but apparently the Tories exaggerated what the Obama official said and also falsely claimed Obama's campaign approached the embassy when the opposite is true. Regardless, the real question here is why some unnamed Tory staffer leaked an internal diplomatic memo?

[ 04 March 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 04 March 2008 09:40 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A pundit on CNN (of all places! ) referred to Harper as "the right wing conservative prime minister of Canada" last night, and soundly denounced his government's meddling in American affairs.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 March 2008 09:57 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps it's simply a modest attempt to show that Harper and his cabal of zealots aren't all U.S. zombies.
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pogge
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posted 04 March 2008 10:00 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Regardless, the real question here is why some unnamed Tory staffer leaked an internal diplomatic memo?

According to the Globe and Mail, ABC News has identified the leaker as Harper's Chief of Staff, Ian Brodie. Meanwhile, our Conservative government has managed to get itself branded as AEI North. Come to think of it, that's not bad.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 March 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I doubt Liberal plutocrats in the U.S. would want to renegotiate a sweetheart deal for Canadian fossil fuels and total energy exports. Ottawa should have hired the very shrewd and corrupt Mexican officials to negotiate that end of the deal for us from 1980's-'94 instead of the hundreds of Ottawa lawyers and banditos on the take here in the capital then.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 04 March 2008 10:36 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

According to the Globe and Mail, ABC News has identified the leaker as Harper's Chief of Staff, Ian Brodie. Meanwhile, our Conservative government has managed to get itself branded as AEI North. Come to think of it, that's not bad.



The leaker should suffer some sort of consequences. Otherwise Harper better hope that if Obama becomes president, he's no longer PM.

What's unusual about this is that the interference is taking place in the nominating process, not the general election. Since Clinton is the one who ostensibly stands to benefit from this, someone should look at Bill Clinton's phone records.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
-=+=-
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posted 04 March 2008 10:44 AM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good for Harper.

A Republican president would be better for Canada.

There would be less pressure for integration, as our Democrat-loving elite (you know who you are) wouldn't be cooing over whoever's in the White House.


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M. Spector
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posted 04 March 2008 10:49 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 04 March 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
The leaker should suffer some sort of consequences. Otherwise Harper better hope that if Obama becomes president, he's no longer PM.
If, as news stories indicate, the memo was drafted in Chicago and then sent to all embassies and consulates there's a long list of people who knew about this. I imagine, based on the way it's leaked out, that it was a "secret" that a LOT of people were in on and it was inevitably making it's way to the press.

That noted: if Brodie was laughing about it with reporters that's a pretty damned stupid thing for the Chief of Staff to a Prime Minister to be doing. There's a very good chance that Obama will be President. And incredibly popular US Presidents can really screw over Canadian Prime Ministers. Think of how Kennedy pulled off a coup against Diefenbaker. Of course Harper's no Diefenbaker. And, hopefully, Obama is not the warmonger that Kennedy was.


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Scott Piatkowski
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posted 04 March 2008 06:40 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
A pundit on CNN (of all places! ) referred to Harper as "the right wing conservative prime minister of Canada" last night, and soundly denounced his government's meddling in American affairs.

Apparently, Jack Layton is leader of something called the Labour Party.


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-=+=-
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posted 04 March 2008 07:52 PM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
There's a very good chance that Obama will be President. And incredibly popular US Presidents can really screw over Canadian Prime Ministers. Think of how Kennedy pulled off a coup against Diefenbaker. Of course Harper's no Diefenbaker. And, hopefully, Obama is not the warmonger that Kennedy was.

And in such circumstances could our Democrat-loving elite tone down the gushing testaments of love for the Dem in the White House?

Doubtful.

They'd sell the Prime Minister out.

[ 04 March 2008: Message edited by: -=+=- ]


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Uncle John
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posted 04 March 2008 10:27 PM      Profile for Uncle John     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The polls apparently say that Obama could beat McCain, but Clinton can't.

So naturally it is in the Conservative interest to try to torpedo Obama.

I still say that after a while of the McCain presidency, people will be pining for the "Good old days" of George W. Bush...


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Wilf Day
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posted 04 March 2008 11:22 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by -=+=-:
A Republican president would be better for Canada.

There would be less pressure for integration, as our Democrat-loving elite (you know who you are) wouldn't be cooing over whoever's in the White House.



This is true.

However, I have one reason to cheer for HRC. Today when women note the rotten failure of our voting system to elect more women, although 90% of us say we want to elect more women, the standard response is "well, at least we're better than the US on that score" which is true.

But when the US finally elects a woman president, there will be less excuse for inaction in Canada.


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josh
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posted 05 March 2008 08:04 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

This piece details the sordid affair, that begins not with Obama contacting Canada, but nervous Canadians contacting the campaigns. Austan Goolsbee agreed to accept an invitation from Canadians, who pressed him for answers about protectionist sentiments emerging in the US Presidential election. He tried to reassure them that Obama did not want to do away with the agreement, but wanted to add labor and environmental protections.

Someone in the Harper government - Prime Minister of Canada and a member of their Conservative Party - apparently decided to leak a sensational lie that bears a very loose resemblance of the truth. A source leaked to CTV that the Obama campaign had called Michael Wilson, Canadian Ambassador to the US, and warned them that Obama was going to talk tough on NAFTA, but it would be just talk.

According to CBC, all the details were wrong. Canada contacted the campaigns. Michael Wilson was not involved. And, most damning, they are now admitting that the memo at the heart of the controversy "may not accurately reflect what they were told".


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/5/112926/0842/300/469572


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 05 March 2008 08:23 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
And, hopefully, Obama is not the warmonger that Kennedy was.

Obama is a survivor in politics in Chicago and they play hardball there. Someone will pay for this even if Obama loses the nomination and remains a Senator.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 05 March 2008 08:39 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wouldn't it be a lovely irony if the Obama campaign sues Harper and the Cons for interfering in an American election by a foreign government if the cons lied about the memo to affect the Obama campaign adversely?

Impressive how right wing governments like to look out for one anothers interests.

[ 05 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 05 March 2008 08:59 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Tuesday called the memo's leak "completely unacceptable," and vowed his government would find out who was responsible.

"The Canadian Embassy in Washington expressed it's apologies regarding the leaking of this information," Harper said in Parliament. "The government is trying to find who's responsible for this information being made public."

Harper has disputed the suggestion that his government was trying to complicate Obama's chances or favor Republican Sen. John McCain, who strongly supports NAFTA.


Again doesn't the Prime Minister run a tight ship with his fingers on everything in the party? How could Harper not know and not authorize this himself? Isn't he the "control freak" on top of everything in his party? So many questions???


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remind
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posted 05 March 2008 09:52 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
OTTAWA - The NDP is calling for an RCMP investigation into "NAFTAgate."

Party leader Jack Layton wants the prime minister to call in the Mounties to find out who leaked details of a conversation between a Canadian diplomat and an adviser to U.S. presidential hopeful Barack Obama.


http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/03/04/4905681-cp.html


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josh
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posted 05 March 2008 10:00 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good for him. This has gotten more play down here than in Canada. I don't know why the opposition hasn't made a bigger stink about this.
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Michelle
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posted 05 March 2008 10:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know. They've been raising it in the House, and it's been making the CBC news headlines.
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Centrist
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posted 05 March 2008 10:08 AM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Baed upon analysis from CNN commentators last night, I kept repeatedly hearing about Clinton's "Red Phone" TV ad, which apparently had a big negative impact upon Obama's campaign.

While NAFTA could have had an impact upon Ohio blue-collar voters due to the declining manufacturing sector, I think it would have minimal impact upon Texas voters, where Clinton won by a 4% margin and where Obama was expected to win.

Also interesting to note that CNN exit polls had these results based upon the Question who was "More likely to win in November":

In Texas:

Clinton Supporters: Clinton - 93%
Obama Supporters: Obama: 81%

In Ohio:

Clinton Supporters: Clinton - 93%
Obama Supporters: Obama - 80%

Additionally, 7 out of 8 polls in Ohio gave Clinton the edge over the past week as well as throughout the primary season.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_democratic_primary-263.html


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 March 2008 10:28 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm. And hubby Bill just happened to be in Toronto last weekend. Coincidence?

quote:

Bill Clinton is expected to take a break from his wife's campaign tonight - just days before she faces crucial -primary contests in Texas and Ohio - to host a charity event in Toronto with Frank Giustra, a Canadian -businessman.

The former president's relationship with Mr Giustra, a mining tycoon and -philanthropist who has donated more than $100m to Mr Clinton's foundation, has come under scrutiny in recent weeks. It has been suggested that his ties toMr Clinton have helped Mr Giustra's business ventures, including a lucrative mining agreement in Kazakhstan.

Senator Hillary Clinton is under increasing pressure to be more transparent about her family's finances, donors to Mr Clinton's foundation (which financed his presidential library) and other business ties, since she revealed last month that she lent $5m of her own cash to her presidential campaign.

Unlike her rival for the democratic nomination, the Illinois senator Barack Obama, Mrs Clinton has not publicly released her tax return, which she files jointly with her husband.


http://tinyurl.com/yskasw


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RosaL
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posted 05 March 2008 10:48 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NYT report: "Blame in Canada" (with embedded video from MSNBC) .

(A minor but interesting point: the MSNBC reporter refers to Jack Layton as the "Labour leader".)

According to the NYT:

quote:
In Canada, however, interest has centered on who leaked the memo and that person’s motives. Unlike Washington, Canadian government documents are protected by strict secrecy laws and rarely make their way to reporters. That has particularly been the case with Mr. Harper’s Conservative government which keeps unusually tight control on information.

[ 05 March 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


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Scott Piatkowski
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posted 05 March 2008 10:57 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
Apparently, Jack Layton is leader of something called the Labour Party.

quote:
Originally posted by RosaL:
(A minor but interesting point: the MSNBC reporter refers to Jack Layton as the "Labour leader".)


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remind
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posted 05 March 2008 12:22 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jack was all over thisd in QP today and again asked for RCMP involvement, Harper said they doinfg an inquiry, but apparently the inquiry is not looking at Ian Brodie.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 05 March 2008 12:43 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Jack was all over thisd in QP today and again asked for RCMP involvement, Harper said they doinfg an inquiry, but apparently the inquiry is not looking at Ian Brodie.

Haven't you ever watched Yes, Minister? The point of an "inquiry" isn't to actually find anything out. Therefore, looking at Brodie would completely defeat the purpose.


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Istvan
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posted 05 March 2008 03:41 PM      Profile for Istvan        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Aside from their crime bills, I can't think of one positive thing that the Conservatives have done during their term in office. Until now, that is.
From: NDP4LIFE | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 05 March 2008 03:42 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Istvan:
... I can't think of one positive thing ...

I hear ya, bro, I hear ya. But there are miracle cures these days.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Istvan
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posted 05 March 2008 03:45 PM      Profile for Istvan        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please let me know when yoou find one for that.

Narga narga narga...(cymbals crash!)


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unionist
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posted 05 March 2008 03:48 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Istvan:
Please let me know when yoou find one for that.

Ok, I was mistaken - they said it wouldn't work for you. Something about "ingrained", "hardened", and other technical terms I had trouble following, being just an ordinary friggin working person, don't ya know.

Do you know where I can take smart courses so I can understand stuff like you obviously do?

Maybe I could enrol my entire ordinary average working family?


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mary123
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posted 05 March 2008 04:00 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jack Layton should do more press in the US thus ensuring more press for him here in Canada and raising his profile through the US international press. Jack could position himself as the only leader in Canada pursuing this and willing to get to the bottom of this issue.

Getting to the bottom of this is important and there is alot of interest in this issue there.

I'm positive he'll get more press first this way in the US cause he ain't getting much in Canada. And then once he gets press in the US the Canadian press flunkies will follow suit and thus guaranteeing he gets more press here.

Jack can capitalize on this issue while setting the record straight about the "leaked memos".

Go on Jack - go steal our dumb Prime Ministers thunder with the American press.

[ 05 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 March 2008 04:37 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's the CBC report on the flap:

http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/vsu/wmv-hi/macdonald-obama-memo080303.wmv

And here's Harper doing his best Claude Rains in Casablanca imitation:

quote:

“This kind of leaking of information is completely unacceptable. In fact, it may well be illegal,” Mr. Harper told the House of Commons.

“It is not useful, it is not in the interests of the government of Canada — and the way the leak was executed was blatantly unfair to Senator Obama and his campaign.

“Based on what (investigators) find, and based on legal advice, we will take any action that is necessary to get to the bottom of this matter.”

Government officials have said they will not seek out the source of the original leak.



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Michelle
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posted 05 March 2008 05:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh. And after he's done that, maybe he can join O.J. out on the links in search for the killer.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 05 March 2008 06:02 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Government officials have said they will not seek out the source of the original leak.
Oops - change of plans!
quote:
Harper announced Wednesday that he has asked an internal security team to begin finding the source of a document leak that he characterized as being "blatantly unfair" to Senator Barack Obama. - Toronto Star

====

quote:
Hillary Clinton's campaign is crediting controversy over a leaked Canadian memo casting doubt on Barack Obama's sincerity about renegotiating NAFTA as a substantial factor in her Ohio victory. - Canadian Press

[ 05 March 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 05 March 2008 06:26 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Heh. And after he's done that, maybe he can join O.J. out on the links in search for the killer.

hahaha.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 05 March 2008 07:28 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sources accused Prime Minister Stephen Harper's top aide of leaking information about Barack Obama's controversial NAFTA views on Wednesday, just as the prime minister himself was vowing to find out exactly who was behind the leak.

CBC News confirmed Wednesday that Harper's chief of staff, Ian Brodie, was the source of what is now being dubbed NAFTA-gate.



Scandal after scandal ...

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Stockholm
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posted 05 March 2008 07:45 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm glad the NDP is really going after the Tories on this Obama issue. This is infinitely more important than the Liberal pet scandal that consists of "who do you believe, Stephen Harper saying "certs in a candymint" or Dona Cadman saying "No, Certs is a breath mint"!
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 March 2008 07:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, and certainly light years more important than, oh, say, turning back the clock on abortion rights.

But I'm not bitter. I know, I know. I'll go back to the other thread.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 March 2008 04:27 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
what does abortion rights have to do with this?
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Boom Boom
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posted 06 March 2008 04:35 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CBC just said Hillary's campaign is involved somehow in this sandbagging of Obama. Keep tuned.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 March 2008 04:39 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No surprise there. At least from my point of view.

Harper should be forced to can Brodie.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 March 2008 05:07 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apparently, the Obama campaign was not the only one to "reassure" Canada.

quote:

Mr. Brodie, apparently seeking to play down the potential impact on Canada, told the reporters the threat was not serious, and that someone from Ms. Clinton's campaign had even contacted Canadian diplomats to tell them not to worry because the NAFTA threats were mostly political posturing.


http://tinyurl.com/2b4nb4

Meanwhile, someone should be asking questions of CTV and its Washington bureau chief.


quote:

The news agency quoted that source as saying that Mr. Brodie said that someone from Ms. Clinton'scampaign called and was "telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt."

The story was followed by CTV's Washington bureau chief, Tom Clark, who reported that the Obama campaign, not the Clinton's, had reassured Canadian diplomats.

Mr. Clark cited unnamed Canadian sources in his initial report.

There was no explanation last night for why Mr. Brodie was said to have referred to the Clinton campaign but the news report was about the Obama campaign. CTV president Robert Hurst declined to comment.



From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 06 March 2008 05:32 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Josh - that was the gist of the CBC story this morning as well. Apparently, as far as I can see, it was Mr. Brodie who made the reference to Mrs. Clinton, and that looks to have been a fabrication of his. As far as I can tell.

edited to fix spelling

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


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Mercy
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posted 06 March 2008 06:08 AM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On an unrelated note - maybe I'll start a new thread - the corporate media's use of anonymous sources is getting ridiculous.

I always thought anonymity was granted if someone's life (or at least their career) was at risk.

But nowadays it seems that Ian Brodie mouthing off to reporters is protected. Not to mention Karl Rove...


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Buddy Kat
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posted 06 March 2008 06:23 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think Harper is responsible for this one ...he'll wait for the actual presidential race before he interferes with his republican pay back.

This one was one of his overzealous minions, which infest the conservative party like a virus.

Hopefully by the time the presidential race is happening , Harper will be rotting in a federal prison for bribery and obstruction of justice.

Once the super delegates figure out how the republicans will just paint Hilary as a cry baby they will elect Obama. They probably know from there own polling that Obama has the better chance of becoming president.

One neocon down - John Howard..Two to go..Harper and Bush....


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 06 March 2008 09:21 AM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly, this is a bizarre wraparound and twisting of words.
So, as far as we know, both Obama and Clinton campaigns met with Canadian officials about NAFTA.

But now we're hearing that it was Clinton's people who said that she would go "easy" on NAFTA.
And somehow, Obama was attributed to say that - which is mind-boggling.

How did this switcharoo happen?

You should read this on dailykos: they are furious at Canada over this. Some are even slamming Canadians in general.
Funny, since they should really blame Harper and Republican analysts who kept his campaign afloat.


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 06 March 2008 09:28 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Listening to Harper's denials of what he has said on the Cadman tape and his weasel words on this topic, I wonder if we should have a thread: "Have the Tories screwed themselves?"

Of coure they would object to a movie being made of it since they are almost all middle age men. Hmmm: Middle aged men f*****g themselves-- sounds like a movie concept about the Liberals.

I wonder if Dion will go to court arguing that the Liberals screwed themselves first and Harper has no business stealing the concept.

Since the movie is in fact being recorded and dessiminated by CPAC could we argue that Middle aged men f*****g is in fact a production paid for by the tax payer?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 06 March 2008 09:40 AM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:

Since the movie is in fact being recorded and dessiminated by CPAC could we argue that Middle aged men f*****g is in fact a production paid for by the tax payer?

AND in part sponsored by the Viagara lobbyist pharmaceuticals.

"Harper F****** Canadians" on the other hand would be a documentary.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 March 2008 10:03 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BetterRed:
Exactly, this is a bizarre wraparound and twisting of words.
So, as far as we know, both Obama and Clinton campaigns met with Canadian officials about NAFTA.

But now we're hearing that it was Clinton's people who said that she would go "easy" on NAFTA.
And somehow, Obama was attributed to say that - which is mind-boggling.

How did this switcharoo happen?

You should read this on dailykos: they are furious at Canada over this. Some are even slamming Canadians in general.
Funny, since they should really blame Harper and Republican analysts who kept his campaign afloat.


Most Kossacks are blaming the Harper government, not Canadians. You'll get a few idiots on any forum.

As for your "switcharoo" question, I'd very much like to know that myself.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 06 March 2008 11:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not too worried about what the Kossacks think of Canada or Canadians. Almost all of them (except for you, of course, josh!) are charmingly ignorant when it comes to Canadian politics, judging from much of what I've read from them on the subject.

For instance, this was considered to be an "informed opinion" about Canadian politics:

quote:
Harper, the canadian equivalent of Pat Buchanan, is backtracking because he's in real trouble - you forget that he leads a minority government and the liberal opposition smells blood and their best chance to sully him enough so that they can call for a vote of non-confidence resulting in an election. He's not too popular these days so he cannot afford to be seen taking sides with the white candidate resulting in antagonizing Canadian minorities he needs to get re-elected! It's all politics as usual!

First of all, anyone who has bothered to follow Canadian politics for even a week knows that the Liberals are doing everything possible NOT to have to call an election because their party is in shambles, they have a leader who scores Absolute McGuinty on the charisma scale and therefore has a popularity rating that is approaching single digits (okay that's an exaggeration), and the last thing they want to do is call an election. And they're way more concerned about the Cadman scandal than this.

And "the Canadian Pat Buchanan"? Huh? That's ridiculous.

Furthermore, the whole not wanting to be seen taking sides with the white candidate because Harper needs "Canadian minorities" to get elected - wtf? She seems like a nice enough person, and she's got some stuff right, but a lot of it is kind of out there.

Not to mention that the site has a whole bunch of guys on that board who can turn into misogynist pigs at the drop of a hat if anyone criticizes a Democrat who is anti-choice. And look at the way a lot of them treated Cindy Sheehan when she dared to criticize Democrats for being waffling liars on the issue of the Iraq war.

Not too worried what they think of Canadians.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 06 March 2008 12:09 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't understand the use of the term "Kossack". Is this meant to be a pejorative?

If so, it's a little too close to Cossack. I've provided a few examples, who either were Cossacks or who wrote about Cossacks, below.

Mikhail Aleksandrovich Sholokov

Taras Shevchenko

Nikolai Gogol

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 March 2008 12:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, it's a name they've given themselves, sort of like how we've come to refer to ourselves here as "babblers".
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 06 March 2008 12:31 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jack Layton will be interviewed about this story on CNN's "Larry King Live" tonight!
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 06 March 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hehe

Kossacks are what the posters at dailykos.com call themselves.

Took me a little while also to figure out who these Kossacks were.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 06 March 2008 02:19 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OMG Boom Boom I thought you were joking about Jack Layton except he'll be on CNN's lou Dobbs.
I was playing political advisor to the NDP yesterday saying he should be on US media and sure enough HE IS!!!!

quote:
On the other hand, Jack Layton made it to MSNBC and will apparently appear on CNN's Lou Dobbs Thursday night. One political truism is that Canadian pols that are in demand in the US media are in demand in Canada's.


That truism is what I posted on March 5 in this thread. Jack Layton finds his NAFTA groove.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 06 March 2008 02:27 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe Jack Layton needs to write articles on the Huffington Post next to get more press time in Canada hehehehe.

Maybe get a bunch of American fans swooning for Jack Layton and the NDP and the whole thing goes viral!
hehehe!!!


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 06 March 2008 02:30 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It was Don Newman that said Layton would be on Larry King tonight - could he actually have confused Larry King with Lou Dobbs???
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 06 March 2008 03:56 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hokay... Jack was just on the Lou Dobbs show denouncing NAFTA and talking about ObamaGate, saying he asked Harper to apologise.

By the way, right after the interview with Jack, Lou Dobbs has a segment with Hugo Chavez, whom Dobbs calls "a leftist menace". How did Jack escape getting that moniker from Lou Dobbs?


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kinetix
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posted 06 March 2008 04:35 PM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I just visited the Larry King Live web site and tonight's program is going to be some crap sob story about some flat-earthers who believe that vaccinations caused their child to be autistic... followed by a debate between John Kerry and Mike Huckabee!

Lordy, lordy.... why am I paying for this channel anyway?


From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 06 March 2008 04:45 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I love CNN - it's my favourite comedy channel, especially that big neanderthal blowhard Lou Dobbs! Did you catch his show last night? He was getting red in the face while ranting and raving and screaming at the camera about US jobs being outsourced overseas, and the Air Force giving a monster contract to Airbus in France instead of Boeing in the USA. Gawd, it was hilarious!!!
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Parkdale High Park
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posted 06 March 2008 06:24 PM      Profile for Parkdale High Park     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canadians are always talking about the need for relevance on the world stage. I will admit at least a little pride in the ability of our small dominion to impact world affairs.

PS: to those that think there are political points to be made here, forget about it. If anything, anti-Americanism helps one out politically (especially if you are on the left). I fail to see how Layton's posturing himself as Obama's office boy will look good.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 March 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canadians are not anti-American, they are anti-Bush and anti-Republican. I don't think that there is any down side for Canadian politician to be seen as defending the American politicians that about 90% would vote for if we could and attacking the Harper gov't for trying to give a hand to their Republican allies.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Politics101
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posted 06 March 2008 07:28 PM      Profile for Politics101   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
followed by a debate between John Kerry and Mike Huckabee!

You didn't watch too closely - there was no debate between these two people - there were separate 10 minute interviews.

quote:
some crap sob story about some flat-earthers who believe that vaccinations caused their child to be autistic
That was on the web site - hardly - and if you had an autistic child I am sure you would be offended by these remarks - on a previous show on the same topic one of the spokesperson for this topic re the link between autism and vaccinations was a person by the name of Doug Flutie - a flat earther I think not.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Skinny Dipper
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Babbler # 11459

posted 07 March 2008 03:04 AM      Profile for Skinny Dipper   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heck, I knew Barack Obama was bluffing about re-opening NAFTA. Jean Chrétien said the same thing about the FTA between Canada and the US. That being said, it is improper for any country to try to interfere with another country's election process--even if it's still in the party nominationn stage. This doesn't mean that one must remain silent. A country's leader can make comments about ideas that are workable or not. For example, Harper could say that re-opening NAFTA would mean that some protections that the Americans already have would be on the table for negotiation.
From: Ontarian for STV in BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 07 March 2008 03:48 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
Canadians are always talking about the need for relevance on the world stage. I will admit at least a little pride in the ability of our small dominion to impact world affairs.

PS: to those that think there are political points to be made here, forget about it. If anything, anti-Americanism helps one out politically (especially if you are on the left). I fail to see how Layton's posturing himself as Obama's office boy will look good.


How exactly is exposing the Harper leak (and the lies about what Obama said/did) anti-American? Please and thank you.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Skinny Dipper
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posted 07 March 2008 04:14 AM      Profile for Skinny Dipper   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Even Hilary Clinton's stance on NAFTA is questionable.
From: Ontarian for STV in BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
vankids
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15020

posted 07 March 2008 07:24 AM      Profile for vankids     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Harper just killed Obama's momentum which contributed to his loss in Ohio.


I would love to get rid of (or at least renegotiate) NAFTA so Canadian workers won't keep getting the short end of the stick all over the place.


From: Republic of Vancouver East | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kinetix
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posted 07 March 2008 07:46 AM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Politics101:
That was on the web site - hardly - and if you had an autistic child I am sure you would be offended by these remarks - on a previous show on the same topic one of the spokesperson for this topic re the link between autism and vaccinations was a person by the name of Doug Flutie - a flat earther I think not.

Please don't assume that I haven't been impacted by autism. Furthermore, Doug Flutie was a football player. Why should I take his word over stacks and stacks of actual research? Not only has there been a lack of evidence, but there has been a lack of even simple correlation between autism and the use... and non-use... of vaccination in children.


From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 07 March 2008 09:33 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/03/04/4905681-cp.html

So the federal NDP want to protect the ability of politicians to say one thing and do another?

Obama (and Hilary) have screwed themselves. They lied about NAFTA to gain votes. The Tories called them on it.

I'm all for outing politicians who lie to get votes.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Centrist
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Babbler # 5422

posted 07 March 2008 09:45 AM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Speaking of NAFTA, Harris Decima released a poll today showing that Canadians are willing to use oil as leverage if NAFTA is reopened.

quote:
Canadians would support using energy supplies as a bargaining chip if the United States tries to reopen the North American Free Trade Agreement, a new poll suggests.

Respondents to The Canadian Press Harris-Decima poll generally like NAFTA and were willing to play hardball against the Americans in any renegotiation.

Almost half of them felt that NAFTA has been good, or very good for the economy, while only 27 per cent thought it's a bad deal.

The survey suggests that 61 per cent of people would support using oil as a lever if Washington demands a renegotiation of the treaty.

Bruce Anderson, Harris-Decima president, said Canadian support for NAFTA includes majorities of both Liberal and Conservative voters, although NDP support is much weaker.

"Canadians like the idea of free trade," he said.

They're ready to be tough in negotiations, he added.


http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iBIjh9UHdqTPGbC1IEGc2defkdmg


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 07 March 2008 10:58 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Politics101:
re the link between autism and vaccinations was a person by the name of Doug Flutie - a flat earther I think not.

But an idiot I think. There is no link.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 07 March 2008 11:09 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Canadians are not anti-American, they are anti-Bush and anti-Republican. I don't think that there is any down side for Canadian politician to be seen as defending the American politicians that about 90% would vote for if we could and attacking the Harper gov't for trying to give a hand to their Republican allies.
Speak for your self. I am anti-American and proud of it.

54 40 or fight nice slogan, I live in BC which the Americans insisted should actually be Oregon.

How about Manifest Destiny? See any place for Canadian autonomy in Manifest Destiny?

I dislike imperial empires but that is just a personal political view. All of the politicians running with any chance of winning insist that America has the "god given" right to rule the world. Sorry I don't agree. But the people of America agree in spades and any "weak" politician has no chance of success. Ask Americans, they will tell you that they deserve to run the world because they are morally superior.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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Babbler # 7791

posted 07 March 2008 11:25 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
All of the politicians running with any chance of winning insist that America has the "god given" right to rule the world.


Exactly right - all three running, Clinton, Obama, McCain, are all imperialists, and all are warmongers, although perhaps Clinton least of all from what I've seen.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 07 March 2008 11:31 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Huh? Clinton voted for the Iraq war. Obama opposed it. Clinton was to bomb Iran. Obama has taken no such position.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 07 March 2008 11:35 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was thinking of Obama's current position, which is to withdraw from Iraq, and transfer two battle groups (15,000 soldiers) to Afganistan. And his promise to invade Pakistan if Mussaraf doesn't reign in "terrorists" crossing the border with Afganistan. I wasn't aware of Clinton's threats to bomb Iran - guess I missed that one.

ETA: Hokay, all those running are certified warmongers.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
sgm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5468

posted 07 March 2008 12:07 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
They lied about NAFTA to gain votes. The Tories called them on it.

I'm all for outing politicians who lie to get votes.


Me too:

quote:
The Canadian Press

WASHINGTON -- U.S. legislator Michael Michaud says Canada's trade minister told him privately last month that he'd be willing to reopen NAFTA.

Michaud, a congressman from Maine who co-founded the Friends of Canada caucus, said Trade Minister David Emerson made the comment in Ottawa outside Parliament.

Emerson, he said, didn't provide details.

Michaud returned to Capitol Hill and told colleagues about it, he said Friday, but was shocked to later read about Emerson's strong stand against renegotiating the North American Free Trade Agreement.

"I am very concerned about it,'' said Michaud, adding it's disturbing to have Emerson say one thing in public while taking a different tack in a private meeting.



From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 07 March 2008 12:26 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh my god I am shocked. Emerson being duplicitous. What is this world coming to?
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Uncle John
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14940

posted 07 March 2008 06:36 PM      Profile for Uncle John     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canada is an empire in its own right. Empires have 'Provinces'. Federations have 'States'...
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 May 2008 02:57 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Fingers are pointing at Conservatives close to Stephen Harper for leaking a diplomatic memo that badly embarrassed Barack Obama and put Canada's vital cross-border interests at risk. Multiple sources say the Canadian note questioning the Democrat frontrunner's public promise to reopen NAFTA was leaked from the Prime Minister's Office to a Republican contact before it made American headline news.

Their claims come days after an internal probe threw up its hands at finding the source. Contradicting Friday's inconclusive report, they claim the controversial memo was slipped to the son of Wisconsin Republican Congressman James Sensenbrenner. Frank Sensenbrenner is well connected to Harper's inner circle and, at Ottawa's insistence, was briefly on contract with Canada's Washington embassy to work on congressional relations.


http://www.thestar.com/News/USElection/article/431367


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged

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