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Author Topic: How do we negotiate with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda ?
Centerfield
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posted 19 September 2006 03:00 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is there any way to stop this violence.


Al Qaeda issues warning to Pope


quote:
CAIRO, Egypt — Al Qaeda in Iraq warned Pope Benedict on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world, and Iran’s supreme leader called for more protests over the pontiff’s remarks on Islam.

[Edited to remove sidescroll.]

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
slimpikins
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posted 19 September 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for slimpikins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah. The Pope converts to Islam. God help organized religion.
From: Alberta | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
indiemuse
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posted 19 September 2006 03:32 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
sidescroll
From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
SDC
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posted 19 September 2006 04:01 PM      Profile for SDC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Simple; we can negotiate on exactly how fast we all convert to Islam, or they will kill us all. Alternatively, maybe Jack can go over there and work out some basic rules to delay this, ie. only one suicide bomber per car, bus, or plane, mandatory meal breaks between beheadings, a shop steward at all public stonings to enforce a maximum stone weight, only organically-grown cotton to be used in burkhas, etc.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
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posted 19 September 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Negotiate with Al Qaeda?

ugh.


From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Common Sense New Democrat
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posted 19 September 2006 04:29 PM      Profile for Common Sense New Democrat        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SDC:
Simple; we can negotiate on exactly how fast we all convert to Islam, or they will kill us all. Alternatively, maybe Jack can go over there and work out some basic rules to delay this, ie. only one suicide bomber per car, bus, or plane, mandatory meal breaks between beheadings, a shop steward at all public stonings to enforce a maximum stone weight, only organically-grown cotton to be used in burkhas, etc.

Very funny

Jack Layton saying we should negotiate with the Taliban. There is a good idea. Generally, in order to enter into negotiations with another party over an issue, it must be acknowledged that both sides have something to offer the other. What is it that we have to offer the Taliban or Al Queda? I was pretty surprised at this stance. I thought that the NDP was in favour of protecting women and children. Now we want to negotiate with the Taliban who beat girls ane execute their female teachers in front of them? Taliban Jack doesn't exactly make me feel comfortable in the NDP rigtht now.


From: East Vancouver | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 19 September 2006 04:43 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a naive stance from the NDP. Regrettably.
Perhaps Layton should take a trip over there and see exactly what the legacy is.
(I am just thinking out loud.)

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 September 2006 05:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Peech!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 19 September 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you claim to be fighting someone, you should be able to talk to them as well. Parlays between opposing forces are standard in armed conflict.

Of course, that's only if you have definable goals that you want to acheive, which is not the case for the Candian military in Afghanistan, unfortunately. The government just wants them to roam around fighting whoever, which is why they can't "win", 'cause nobody knows what victory would be.

The business of actually improving things in Afghanistan is so messy that Harper doesn't want to go anywhere near it, which is why there's no talking to the enemy. The enemy are irrelevent. They can be anybody. What's important is that the soldiers are seen fighting somebody so he can get his props from the big boys.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dana Larsen
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posted 19 September 2006 06:35 PM      Profile for Dana Larsen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The USA used to not just "negotiate" with the Taliban, they actually funded them with gifts of cash. The US and Canada both negotiate and work with all kinds of nasty governments around the world all the time.

Certainly the western powers continue to "negotiate" with North Korea even though their ruler is a nutcase. Indeed, negotiation is an inevitable part of any war or conflict, even with "evil" enemies.

Even if the Taliban surrenders, we'd still have to "negotiate" some kind of peace, unless our stance is that there must be absolute unconditional surrender, or we kill every single one.

I find it hard to understand people who oppose the US presence in Iraq but support Canada's continued military stance in Afghanistan.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 19 September 2006 07:03 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by indiemuse:
sidescroll

Ditto.

Who is suggesting we negotiate with al Qaeda or bin Laden? Although bin Laden seems to pop up often enough, offering to stop the violence if America will stop interfering in mid east governments.

Obviously we should have talked with the Taliban, rather than merely bombing and taking up with their opponents.

How to talk to them? I heard Peter McKay suggest there was no one with whom to talk.

quote:
Afghanistan`s Taliban demand pope apologise for Islam remarks

Sunday September 17, 2006 (0212 PST)

KANDAHAR: Afghanistan’s Taliban has demanded that Pope Benedict XVI apologise for remarks linking Islam with violence, adding the comment showed the Christian West was waging war against Muslims.

"We strongly condemn it," Mohammad Hanif, who regularly speaks to the media on behalf of the extremist insurgent group, told AFP in a telephone call.


How about this Mohammad Hanif fellow? Perhaps we could talk to him? We could ask Karzai for Taliban representatives as he knows a few and has some in his government. Or we could ask the Texas oil men who invited a delegation of Taliban to Texas to discuss oil pipe lines ... they might have some names in their Rolodex.

Similarly we could ask the CIA how to contact bin Laden. He was an asset at one time and quite likely retains that status.

How is it that we can determine who is Taliban in order to kill them, yet are unable to find a Talib with whom to speak?


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phred
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posted 20 September 2006 10:59 AM      Profile for Phred     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My question is, would Al Qaeda have formed even if (and it's a big IF) western powers stayed the hell out of the middle east and didn't go meddeling in anyones buisness over there?

Like is Al Qaeda a fairly organized group of pissed of Jihadists?


From: Ottawa | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
morningstar
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posted 20 September 2006 11:23 AM      Profile for morningstar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
there is a way to stop this violence. it will probably take a few generations.

it starts with a commitment to global social justice by all western societies. it means that we must walk our talk at home and walk respectfully abroad.
it means understanding that we must live within our means and gracefully step back from our so called 'interests' in lands that aren't ours.

it means returning all that we've stolen from the poorer parts of the world. it means apologizing for our behaviors and that of our forefathers.

it means sucking it up when we don't get to be 'safe' and wealthy.

it means that we model a grown up society that refuses to be manipulated and polarized by religious and corporate influence of any stripe.

most of all it means implementing immediate gender balance in all of our society's institutions and decision making bodies. half of humanity has been shut out of the evolution of human society and the results aren't good.

having half of societies power resting in female hands will 'broaden' our scope and enhance the possibility of the developement of a global peace process that works.


From: stratford, on | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
slimpikins
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posted 20 September 2006 11:31 AM      Profile for slimpikins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I sometimes liken our 'mission' in Afghanistan as a lite, Canadian version of the so called war on terror in Iraq. There is really no defineable, achievable goal, so how could anyone negotiate any sort of peace?

The main purpose of Canadians being in Afghanistan is similar to the main purpose of the Americans being in Iraq.

1. Show the people that you are doing something to 'preserve' their freedom.

2. Convince some (thanks SDC and westcoastgreenie for proving this point) that the Taliban actually are coming to their neighbourhood to take away thier freedoms and make their wives and daughters wear burkas. Obviously, thats why we need a bigger, better military (and Harper to lead it), otherwise that cute blonde down the street will be wearing a burka instead of that cute shorts-and-bikini top outfit when she is washing her car.

3. Play a little into the whole idea of not switching leaders during a 'war'.

4. Wax patriotically about how in times like these we all have to give up some of our civil liberties (oddly enough in the defence of freedom we are asked to give some freedom up).

Of course Harper doesn't want to negotiate with the Taliban, and will in fact encourage others to pile abuse and rhetoric on anyone who even proposes such a thing (hi Jack). That might actually bring an END to the 'war' and then people would start to wonder why we went there in the first place, maybe ask some questions that would no longer be answered with 'because they hate us because we are free', or 'you are with us or for Al-Qaeda'.


From: Alberta | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 20 September 2006 11:39 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ARRggggghhhh, sidescroll. sigh.

okay, now that that is out of the way....

All that is needed is to read the namifestos of these various groups then find some real, honest mediators to sit down and work out a peace plan. Everyone one of these freedom fighter groups has clearly articulated what their complaints and issues are already and more than once too.

Nor does the bullshit about "never negotiating with terrorists and criminals" hold any water because world governments in general and the u.s. of arrogance in particular have been doing it for ages.

The principle reason no one wants to negotiate now is that the war making industries are raking in the money hand over fist and no one has to courage to try and stop this profiteering off of the misery being caused by all the conflicts.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 20 September 2006 02:05 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No point complaining about sidescroll. This Centrefield character only pops in to babble every few weeks to drop some nugget of ignorance and invite us all to discuss among ourselves while he goes merrily off for another couple of weeks. Don't wait for him to fix the sidescroll.

Only a moderator can do that. Or better yet close this thread.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Common Sense New Democrat
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posted 20 September 2006 02:54 PM      Profile for Common Sense New Democrat        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by morningstar:
there is a way to stop this violence. it will probably take a few generations.

it starts with a commitment to global social justice by all western societies. it means that we must walk our talk at home and walk respectfully abroad.
it means understanding that we must live within our means and gracefully step back from our so called 'interests' in lands that aren't ours.

it means returning all that we've stolen from the poorer parts of the world. it means apologizing for our behaviors and that of our forefathers.

it means sucking it up when we don't get to be 'safe' and wealthy.

it means that we model a grown up society that refuses to be manipulated and polarized by religious and corporate influence of any stripe.

most of all it means implementing immediate gender balance in all of our society's institutions and decision making bodies. half of humanity has been shut out of the evolution of human society and the results aren't good.

having half of societies power resting in female hands will 'broaden' our scope and enhance the possibility of the developement of a global peace process that works.


According to Al Qaeda, the way to stop the violence is for us all to submit to Allah. In reality, that probably wouldn't even do it -- statistics show that you are more likely to be killed by a terrorist attack if you are Muslim.

"Sucking it up when we don't get to be safe" is a pretty rich comment, though. Tell that to the families of the victims of 9-11.

Not to mention your blurb about 50% of power resting with women. Women's equality will stop the violence. I would think that would just anger Islamic Fascists more. Who would they stone to death?


From: East Vancouver | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 20 September 2006 08:51 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's not possible to end the fight with Al Qaeda by forcibly subduing the entire Middle East, as the the US GOP, the Tories and "Common Sense New Democrat" want.

Why, "CS" would you have us send generation after generation of US, Canadian, UK, Australian et.al, troops off to die in an unwinnable and eternal war?

What kind of people would we be after fighting that war for four or five centuries(which, let's face it, is what we'd be looking at)?

I don't want North America to aspire to be a Global Christian Empire.

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 21 September 2006 10:46 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's very simple.....you just get your nose out of other countries affairs...when in Rome do as the Romans do, live and let live.

The problem starts when countries like the US exploit another country for it's addictive purpose or political purpose. Now that the US has killed 800,000 babies and another 50,000 innocent people and stocked Israel with nukes and cluster bombs ...there is no way out.

That radical conservative extremists have retaliated in there dark age fashion and is not surprising and you can bet it's gonna get a lot worse.

Canada can save face by negotiating with them re: peacefull withdrawl and beefing up it's own defences from such war mongering countries as the US.

If they want to help ,forget it..the US does not need an educated afghanistanian with a history book. Do they? The amount of DU dumped there is enough to wipe out the precious child for eons..and Canadians if they don't get out. A genocide is under way and as we all know the saying "What goes around comes around".

Canada elected a bush puppet and they will pay because of it..just watch and learn and you will see why neocons are only elected when new innocent generations are conned with beer and popcorn.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 21 September 2006 01:55 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The question offers the premise that a) we would want to negotiate with bin Laden and/or al Qaeda and b) that they would want to negotiate with us and that c) they even exist and are not bogeyman inventions of some psy-ops warrior in the Pentagon. I see bin Laden's name bandies about more often as we move closer to a US mid-term election.

But then upon reading the first few comments that followed I realized this thread was really just a method for braindead ideologues and ignoramusses to spout off.

Nevertheless, the false premises needed baring.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 21 September 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Common Sense New Democrat:

According to Al Qaeda, the way to stop the violence is for us all to submit to Allah. In reality, that probably wouldn't even do it -- statistics show that you are more likely to be killed by a terrorist attack if you are Muslim.


Hmm. I must have missed that bit of propaganda. As I recall bin Laden wanted the US to get out of Muslim holy lands.[/quote]

quote:
"Sucking it up when we don't get to be safe" is a pretty rich comment, though. Tell that to the families of the victims of 9-11.

Many of them already know this. Don't forget the contingent of 9/11 families who spoke vociferously against the US invading Iraq. Although you had to seek out their voices as they were not prevalent in American media.


quote:
Not to mention your blurb about 50% of power resting with women. Women's equality will stop the violence. I would think that would just anger Islamic Fascists more. Who would they stone to death?

Women's equality has been proven time and time again to be fundamental to the progress of nations. Why do you think Steve Harpercrite is so against a woman's right to dominion over her procreative capacity?

{edited to add: thanks to the moderators for cleaning up the sidescroll on this thread. }

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: siren ]


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
cooper3339
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posted 21 September 2006 02:49 PM      Profile for cooper3339        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Buddy, Does that mean we should keep out of Darfur as well?
From: Winnipeg | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 21 September 2006 02:57 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you understand all the forces at work in Darfur? Have you got a clear idea of which, if any, of those forces "we" should be supporting and which "we" should be opposing? Do you know anybody who does?

Are you in a position to assess the likely effects of any Darfur intervention by "us"?

Will you go along with whatever Uncle Steve says we should do, as long as we appear to be doing something?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
jerysb1980
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posted 21 September 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for jerysb1980     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
if we take out nato and only bring in peacekeepers will that stop the violence. if we build schools will they not be destroyed. I'm having a hard time understanding how the U.N PK will solve these problems. If the taliban sees them as a threat will anything have been accomplished?
From: calgary | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 22 September 2006 07:05 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
No point complaining about sidescroll. This Centrefield character only pops in to babble every few weeks to drop some nugget of ignorance and invite us all to discuss among ourselves while he goes merrily off for another couple of weeks. Don't wait for him to fix the sidescroll.

Only a moderator can do that. Or better yet close this thread.


Don't have time to be here 24/7.
Have to work during the day and many times to tired to come on at night and reply.I do thank you all for your reply's,very informative.

I'm sorry Spector you think my comments are "
some nugget of ignorance".
Don't be frightened,I come here only to have fun and discuss once in awhile.You are still the supreme babbler,if only in your own eyes.

Please where's the the dam barf bag.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 22 September 2006 09:56 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Welcome back!

Do you have another excessively long web link to post? Or perhaps another "topic" for us to discuss amongst ourselves while you're away?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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