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Author Topic: Shooting at Dawson College, Montreal
Catchfire
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posted 13 September 2006 10:32 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC Radio One and all Montreal radio stations are reporting a shooting at the large English CEGEP Dawson College in downtown Montreal. Chaotic reports describe at least two, possibly four injured, and what is described as a covered body lying in the atrium. As far as the news knows, it seems the conflict is continuing even now, with more shots fired reported a few minutes ago.

Our thoughts and prayers with the Dawson and Montreal community right now.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 13 September 2006 11:24 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh shit no.

I just turned on CNN and this is this is the first thing I saw. The students are being filed out of the building with their hands above their heads like Columbine.

One eyewitness reports three armed gunmen on campus, CBC tells CNN reports two gunmen dead.


More here


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Michelle
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posted 13 September 2006 11:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh...this is terrible.

Thanks for the heads up.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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posted 13 September 2006 11:30 AM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The students at Dawson are only 16 and 17 years old -- it's the equivalent of senior high school. I know that neighbourhood very well -- I lived nearby during many of the years I spent in Montreal.
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scooter
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posted 13 September 2006 11:42 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder if this is another Taber like shooting?
From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 13 September 2006 11:55 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
RDI now reporting 4 dead and 16 injured
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Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 11:58 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wish the police would not use terms like "neutralized" when they shoot someone.
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scooter
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posted 13 September 2006 12:04 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I wish the police would not use terms like "neutralized" when they shoot someone.

Who is saying that the attacker(s) was shot?

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 13 September 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A Canadian reporter on CFCF is interviewing students on the street. A "fuck" just got by unedited on CNN as in a student's father screaming at her over the phone "what the fuck is going on there?"

These descriptions by the students and a professor are absolutely chilling. Some of these profs undoubtedly saved some lives getting their students out of there.


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Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 12:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

Who is saying that the attacker(s) was shot?

Read it on another board. Anyway, if they arrested someone, they can say they arrested someone, or have them in custody. It is pretty obvious that meutralize means they shot someone.

The desciption of one of the shooters makes this sound like a Columbine copycat incident, ala the Matrix. Dehumanizing langauge like "Neutralize" also sounds like the product of the Matrix culture.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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glasstech
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posted 13 September 2006 12:09 PM      Profile for glasstech     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My brother works there. Trying to find out if he is okay is impossible. I'm fretting!
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ghoris
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posted 13 September 2006 12:09 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CNN says the College has confirmed that one attacker committed suicide and the other was shot by police.
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arborman
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posted 13 September 2006 12:11 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My god. I have no words.
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 September 2006 12:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by glasstech:
My brother works there. Trying to find out if he is okay is impossible. I'm fretting!

I'll be thinking about him, glasstech. Please let us know when you find out, when you get the chance, okay?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 12:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This was posted elsewhere:

quote:
Family members of Dawson College students seeking more information can call (514) 280-2880 or (514) 280-2806.

Concerned family members can call a special hotline at the hospital: 514-843-2839.


Don't know if that will work or not.


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Stockholm
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posted 13 September 2006 12:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jeez, I have a good friend who teaches there...and apparently cell phones in the area down from overuse etc...so now way to get any info.

There are something like 10,000 students at Dawson so chances are that any individual any of us knows is safe.

I'm sure we will get the whole story in short order. Sounds like a Columbine-like tale of young men suffering from major "anomie" and going berserk.


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Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 12:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Going beserk and "neutralizing" "targets."

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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indiemuse
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posted 13 September 2006 01:06 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fuck, watching the footage of people running from the school is terrifying. All I can say is: not again . . . fuck
From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 13 September 2006 01:10 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, if kids/people would have a bit more respect and understanding for social outcasts things like this wouldn't happen so often.
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Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 01:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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indiemuse
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posted 13 September 2006 01:12 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
Hey, if kids/people would have a bit more respect and understanding for social outcasts things like this wouldn't happen so often.

At this point that is pure speculation. We don't even know if the shooter was a student. Reports I'm hearing say that this started at a nearby mall.


From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
indiemuse
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posted 13 September 2006 01:19 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Read it on another board. Anyway, if they arrested someone, they can say they arrested someone, or have them in custody. It is pretty obvious that meutralize means they shot someone.

The desciption of one of the shooters makes this sound like a Columbine copycat incident, ala the Matrix. Dehumanizing langauge like "Neutralize" also sounds like the product of the Matrix culture.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


You're right about the "neutralizing" comments, one of Montreal's finest used the term at least 4 times in one scrum. Gross.


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Boom Boom
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posted 13 September 2006 01:34 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I came to this story late, around 330 pm, and heard the term 'neutralized' several times. In my experience, it's meant that a suspect is no longer a threat - could be arrested and in handcuffs, or wounded, or shot dead. I wonder why the police don't want to be more specific?
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500_Apples
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posted 13 September 2006 01:37 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now, we will begin to hear discussion of the breakdown of the traditional family, the lack of gun control, violence in video games and violence in hollywood movies.

I went to Champlain College, but my best friends went to Dawson (class of 2003). It's a really great school and imho the best English CEGEP in the Montreal area... having 8000 students or so gives it a lot of diversity and there's a course and club for every taste. I visited a couple times when I was a team member of the Champlain Reach For the Top team. Unfortunately for me, Dawson dominated the Quebec division those two years.

Also, for the record, the standard age to do the two years of CEGEP are the years when one turns 18 and 19, and then 20 for those in three year technical programs.


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 13 September 2006 01:38 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a fuss about "neutralized". If the cops said, "the shooter is no longer a threat", but weren't ready to say whether s/he was dead, critical, serious, handcuffed and smoking a cigarette, suicide, locked in an office - would that be ok?

In my world (and I saw the helicopters over the scene still a while ago), the first thing people want to know is whether the culprits have stopped shooting.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


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unionist
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posted 13 September 2006 01:40 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:

Also, for the record, the standard age to do the two years of CEGEP are the years when one turns 18 and 19, and then 20 for those in three year technical programs.

"For the record", CEGEP covers the same as used to be Grades 12 and 13 in Ontario. If you're university bound, you then do a 3-year degree (unless you're in Honours or some enriched equivalent) instead of 4 years as in most other places. And yes, there is a 3-year program as well.


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Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 13 September 2006 01:48 PM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
Police are saying there was just one shooter, but are not absolutely, unequivocally ruling out more. This despite students seeing two or more shooters. Weird.
From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 13 September 2006 01:50 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok Unionist, I know these basic facts, thank you. When I referred to three year technical programs, I was referring to the three year technical degrees offered in CEGEP. Hence, 18, 19 and 20.
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 13 September 2006 01:53 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey all, this is nuts. Right now, there seems to be too many conflicting reports to actually figure out what's going on.

This CBC story, posted about 25 minutes ago, doesn't mention any deaths, except for one shooter (the "neutralized" one).

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html

It does say an estimated 13 shots were fired and 11 people are injured.

Montreal is again cursed with being the scene of another mass shoot-up.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sans Tache
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posted 13 September 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for Sans Tache        Edit/Delete Post
Do you guys have to argue over a trivial issue like the grades at Dawson? People have been shot, wounded and killed! I read the word "Respect" earlier. Try to show a little respect here.

Thanks for the reports from everyone else. This is going to take some time for my friends and business associates in Montreal to recover from. My thoughts, wishes and sympathies are for everyone involved in this tragic event.


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scooter
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posted 13 September 2006 02:13 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:
Police are saying there was just one shooter, but are not absolutely, unequivocally ruling out more.

CBC has announced the shooter as a 19 year old male.

As for respect, the CBC is playing an interview with a woman who described the shooters haircut as "retarded".

In History today:

1759 General Wolfe dies defeating the French at the Battle of Quebec.
1942 The Germans began their attack on Stalingrad.
1993 The peace agreement was signed between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, which provided for Israeli withdrawal from Gaza Strip and Jericho; Yassir Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin shook hands.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: scooter ]


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Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 13 September 2006 02:28 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just to say that my thoughts are with you Sans Tache, as they are with and students, friends and families there who have been affected by this tragedy.

I know some people in Montreal as well. I will call them later, when things calm down a bit. You might want to do the same.

I remember trying to get hold of associates in New York after the 9/11 attacks and couldn't get through since all the phone lines were jammed. It can get pretty damned irritating trying to make an urgent call only to have a computer tell you, "all circuits are busy. Please try your call later."

And yep, t'is confirmed (supposedly) that one shooter was taken down by the cops. But now they are not confirming that there were other shooters involved.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 13 September 2006 03:28 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My sympathies to the families of the victims.

I hope those who survive this day, whether physically wounded or not, are given the counselling and support they'll need to recover from this to whatever degree they can.


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indiemuse
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posted 13 September 2006 03:49 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
one woman and gunman dead - 19 injured

cbc


From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
glasstech
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posted 13 September 2006 04:35 PM      Profile for glasstech     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My Mom says brother physically okay but a bit shaken.
He help one of the injured and got blood all over him.
He's never handeled blood well.
Still can't get through to him.

From: Whitehorse, Yukon | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 September 2006 04:46 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We're glad your brother's ok glasstech.
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Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 04:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
What a fuss about "neutralized". If the cops said, "the shooter is no longer a threat", but weren't ready to say whether s/he was dead, critical, serious, handcuffed and smoking a cigarette, suicide, locked in an office - would that be ok?

In my world (and I saw the helicopters over the scene still a while ago), the first thing people want to know is whether the culprits have stopped shooting.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


I guess its better than we blew his head off.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 13 September 2006 05:55 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peace to all who are affected by this tragedy.

I would suggest that before we criticize the language and histrionics employed by law enforcement and media alike, we reflect on the fact that an event such as this is something we call "incomprehensible." I do not mean that it is inconceivable, but it is something day to day that we never consider, and when we are forced to reckon with it, there is no acceptable response. May all those currently undergoing or recovering from surgery recover the best they can.


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Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 06:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What bothers me about reading the Canadian media is that we all end up ponying up our personal grief and sorrow over tragedies like this, as if perpetrating this kind of grissly slaughter is not part of the daily routine of our, and our allies soldiers.

And there is a connection betwween what happens "over there" and what happens here, as anyone who will read On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, can find out.

In fact, this kind of thing is all to concievable for many people all over the world, such as in Iraq.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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babblerwannabe
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posted 13 September 2006 06:12 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
in another news, more "Talibans" were killed, yay.

This is not to undermine what happened in Montreal today, I am just following up on Cueball's point.


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boarsbreath
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posted 13 September 2006 06:34 PM      Profile for Boarsbreath   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Three minutes, CBC site says now. Three minutes from the start of shooting to the police taking him down. That's amazing if even nearly true...those guys have been living with the 45 minutes Lepine had (plus, really, since he took himself out). Good on 'em.
From: South Seas, ex Montreal | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 13 September 2006 06:55 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its especially sad when a police officer has to murder someone, but it is needed in this case. *sigh*
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Stockholm
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posted 13 September 2006 07:04 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What bothers me about reading the Canadian media is that we all end up ponying up our personal grief and sorrow over tragedies like this, as if perpetrating this kind of grissly slaughter is not part of the daily routine of our, and our allies soldiers.

Have you nothing better to do than to try to belittle peoples' trauma over this event just so you can get in your one thousandth comment about what is going on in the Middle East???

What if someone opened fire at your place of work and some of your own friends and family were killed? Would you be telling us that you felt it was wrong to express anmy grief since people in Afghanistan are being killed in the conflict there every day?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 13 September 2006 07:14 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He didn't say it was wrong to express any grief. He said in our names this same trauma is inflicted on others every single day. And he is right.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 13 September 2006 07:17 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WE all know that people die every day. Tell us something original.

Maybe next time "Cueball" starts whimpering about some dead Palestinians, I should take the occasion to remind him that on the same day even more people died in traffic accidents in North America.


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pookie
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posted 13 September 2006 07:43 PM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

As for respect, the CBC is playing an interview with a woman who described the shooters haircut as "retarded".

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: scooter ]


The woman (if she was even 18) was crying and clearly traumatized. Sheesh.


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 13 September 2006 07:46 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But dead Palestinians are not killed by accidents.
From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 13 September 2006 07:50 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ohmy God. This is terrible.
Especially because its a place of higher learning, not just some high school.
Now I learned of this just a couple of hours ago(from a British paper online I think). Im still shocked. Also because I was on campus today (in T.O)and no one mentioned this. At all.

quote:
My Mom says brother physically okay but a bit shaken.
He help one of the injured and got blood all over him.
He's never handeled blood well.
Still can't get through to him.

Some scary stuff youre describing...
You'd never think how would you deal with the situation like this. Its just so shocking.
I wish your brother emotional recovery. Hope he's allright.

From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 13 September 2006 08:08 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am sorry, but why is it more horrible at a place of higher learning?...
From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
indiemuse
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posted 13 September 2006 08:17 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pookie:

The woman (if she was even 18) was crying and clearly traumatized. Sheesh.


agreed, but the cbc did not need to play that interview verbatim over and over and over . . .


From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2006 08:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Have you nothing better to do than to try to belittle peoples' trauma over this event just so you can get in your one thousandth comment about what is going on in the Middle East???

What if someone opened fire at your place of work and some of your own friends and family were killed? Would you be telling us that you felt it was wrong to express anmy grief since people in Afghanistan are being killed in the conflict there every day?


But you see Stocky baby, I understand the grief of families and friends beset by this kind of tragedy, perhaps a little bit more than you. But this tragedy does not involve any of my friends and family, and that is my point.

Why am I expected to be somehow more sensitive to grief and horror about these people, than I should about dead Palestinians, whom I don't know either? I don't get it.

Your point of view is summarized well enough though, when you make you crack about Palestinians. Killing Montreal school kids is horrific, while on the other hand killing Palestinians is not really much more than running them over like road kill.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 13 September 2006 08:34 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by babblerwannabe:
I am sorry, but why is it more horrible at a place of higher learning?...

I don't know that one instance is more horrible than another. What I believe accounts for the sense of horror people feel today is the suddenness of the event, the fact that such things don't happen often, the fact that the shock and the trauma are still fresh in people's minds, and the fact that there are so many unknowns about this particular happening. One poster was justifiably worried about a sibling in the area. I think some people should be advised to sit back and show a little empathy and compassion and not split hairs over words the police used when they stopped the gunman.

This is plain awful.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5953

posted 13 September 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just don't understand why it is more horrible because "its a place of higher learning, not just some high school." That comment bothers me, that is all.
From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
indiemuse
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12564

posted 13 September 2006 08:43 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by babblerwannabe:
I just don't understand why it is more horrible because "its a place of higher learning, not just some high school." That comment bothers me, that is all.

yea, I don't really get it either, but give him a chance to explain . . .

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: indiemuse ]


From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 13 September 2006 08:54 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you see Stocky baby, I understand the grief of families and friends beset by this kind of tragedy, perhaps a little bit more than you. But this tragedy does not involve any of my friends and family, and that is my point.


We all naturally feel more moved by tragedies that happen in our own country and in places that we are familiar with. As opposed to what happens to people on the other side of the globe in places we have no connection to. A friend of mine teaches at Dawson College and saw people get gunned down. I grew up mere blocks from there. Do I know anyone who is dead there - No, but I'm sorry if I am a tad more upset about this than I am if a gunman killed some people in Uzbekistan.

I don't expect people in Southern Lebanon to be traumatized about the fact that a gunman killed some people halfway around the world in Canada either.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 13 September 2006 09:40 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe we could keep our personal vendettas out of this thread for the time being. Many babblers are affected directly by this terrible thing, and out of respect for us, wait awhile before airing impersonal political views that are perhaps underrepresented in the mainstream media. When my best friend's father died unexpectedly I didn't tell him about all the other people who died that day all over the world. I gave him my love and support. This thread has nothing to do with Palestine, whose losses I have also wept for in the past.

I think that Red is operating under the assumption that a place of "higher learning" shouldn't produce such violence, while similar events at "just some high school" we've seen before, and could potentially be chalked up to teenage immaturity. I do not agree with this logic, and besides, most CEGEP students would be in high school in any other province. Furthermore, it seems likely by now that the shooter was not a student at Dawson (he was 25), but all details are unconfirmed.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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Babbler # 11865

posted 13 September 2006 09:53 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just don't understand why it is more horrible because "its a place of higher learning, not just some high school." That comment bothers me, that is all."

Hmm didnt think someone would quiblle over this.
I meant that shootings are far more common in high schools. Not colleges.
There's less frustrated teens and less violence.
That was it.
Geez easy with the hassling. Am I on trial here?


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 13 September 2006 10:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
Maybe we could keep our personal vendettas out of this thread for the time being. Many babblers are affected directly by this terrible thing, and out of respect for us, wait awhile before airing impersonal political views that are perhaps underrepresented in the mainstream media. When my best friend's father died unexpectedly I didn't tell him about all the other people who died that day all over the world. I gave him my love and support. This thread has nothing to do with Palestine, whose losses I have also wept for in the past.

I have never shed a single tear for a dead Palestinian. That is not the point. It is a political issue.

I am simply asking why I am required to feel more for some people whom I do not know (weep for them even) who were shot in Montreal, while we can all sit around and merrily discuss deaths in the tens of thousands without batting an eyelash of real sympathy.

When was the last time anyone tried to stop people "airing impersonal political views" on a thread about Lebanon, out of fear that a Lebanese Canadian might read it, and feel we were not properly honouring the dead, or the feelings of those effected by the events unfolding?

Never happened. And it never will.

What about Frank Ogiri-Little (a friend of mine) gunned down by merciless bandits in Pitsburgh three years ago. Senselessy killed for $20.

I don't expect any of you to weep for him. In fact he would probably prefer you talked about the massive problems of poverty, dehumanization of language, and gun control in the USA than shed vain internet tears. Expressions of sympathy, certainly, but stop "airing impersonal political views?"

What?

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 13 September 2006 10:46 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball and others, there's a time and place for everything.

Talking about equally valid horrors on this thread is just disrespectful and insensitive (like getting into a political debate at a funeral). Take it to another thread.

For those with family members, our family's thoughts are with you at this time.

Peace.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 13 September 2006 10:46 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"He said nothing. He had a stone cold face, there was nothing on his face, he didn't say anything, he didn't yell out any slogans or anything. He just started opening fire. He was a cold-blooded killer," said student Soher Marous. One woman said the shooter looked like "the stereotype, with the long black trenchcoat and all the studs and piercings and stuff like that."
No word yet on whether the gunman was a francophone. Targetting Dawson College, the first English-language institution established when the network of post-secondary CEGEPs was set up in 1969, is a bit chilling. It is the largest CEGEP in Quebec, with 7,450 full-time students. It has a total of about 10,000 students enrolled in day and evening courses in more than 50 areas of study.

[ 13 September 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Village Idiot
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Babbler # 6274

posted 14 September 2006 05:59 AM      Profile for Village Idiot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just saw profile/pics and read journal of Kimveer Gill - the Dawson College gunman, (Fatality666 was his username) at vampirefreaks.com ( http://vampirefreaks.com/gallery.php?u=fatality666 ; http://vampirefreaks.com/journal.php?u=fatality666 ).

This guy seemed to have some serious angst/isolation/hate/racism/violence issues, but what I found strangest is that in his journal, he mentions two or three times that POLICE are following/surveiling him, and that he has been "trolled" online by police, acting like 13 year-old goth girls. Apparently the police were looking into the vampirefreaks site pretty heavily since some girl who used to be a member there ended up apparently killing her family...

Was this nutjob under surveillance by police at some time? If so, did they not notice the pics of him posing with his rather large "Buck" knife," and a nasty looking Beretta CX4 assault rifle (perhaps illegal w/o 'restricted' PAL)? Did this guy have a valid "restricted" PAL (not that this would stop anyone, but it would have given the police something tangible to charge the whackjob with), or even a PAL AT ALL?

I really wonder if the police were actually looking at Kimveer Gill for something unusual/illegal...if so, they certainly missed everything...Then again, his journal may or may not have been any more depressing/violent/deranged thatn anyone else on vampirefreaks.com...

This is just so sad and unnecessary...WTF ever happened to slitting your wrists or jumping off a bridge??? Not sensational enough?


From: Undisclosed Location | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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Babbler # 3276

posted 14 September 2006 06:18 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At 3.33 a.m., he writes: "As you can tell, I got nothing of importrance (sic) to write about today. Poor me." (Kimveer Gill.)
Poor us.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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Babbler # 5548

posted 14 September 2006 06:19 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Village Idiot:
...a nasty looking Beretta CX4 assault rifle (perhaps illegal w/o 'restricted' PAL)?

From what I have read on the Canadian Firearms Centre the Beretta CX4 assault rifle IS legal.

Many of the CX4 magazines are prohibited due to the number of cartridges it holds. A 10 cartridge magazine can be legal. The newer 92 cartridge magazine is illegal.

The CX4 fires handgun (pistol) cartridges. It does not fire a high velocity assault cartridge that I'm sure most people picture in their mind.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: scooter ]


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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Babbler # 11323

posted 14 September 2006 06:36 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kimveer Gill's page is still cached here by Google:

Cache


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 14 September 2006 06:37 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A little historical context. The worst mass murder at a North American school was in 1927, see Bath School disaster.

As for Village Idiot's comments above, do you want the police chasing down every deranged web posting? I wonder how many people of this web site would expect the police to knock on their door because they 'hate' president Bush, Harper, Sommerville, etc.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: scooter ]


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Village Idiot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6274

posted 14 September 2006 06:58 AM      Profile for Village Idiot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
A little historical context. The worst mass murder at a North American school was in 1927, see Bath School disaster.

As for Village Idiot's comments above, do you want the police chasing down every deranged web posting? I wonder how many people of this web site would expect the police to knock on their door because they 'hate' president Bush, Harper, Sommerville, etc.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: scooter ]


I don't want them to track down EVERY deranged poster (there'd be no one left HERE!)...

My point was that IF Gill's suspicions were not completely unfounded, the police ALREADY had him under surveillance...but, as I previously hinted - this guy's rambling musings were probably no worse than anyone else you'd expect to find at vampirefreaks.com. Not everyone under surveillance is a preceived threat, and not every perceived threat can be surveilled, I suppose.

And thanks, Scooter - I did not know if the CX4 was legal to possess with an ordinary PAL...very futuristic-looking (and undeniably LETHAL) piece of hardware...


From: Undisclosed Location | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
SDC
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Babbler # 13197

posted 14 September 2006 07:27 AM      Profile for SDC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With the barrel length shown on this wingnut's website, that rifle would be considered "restricted" (the same as a handgun); it takes 10 or 15 shot magazines (there's no such thing as a 92-shot magazine for it, but it does take the same magazine as the Beretta Model 92 handgun).
From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 September 2006 07:43 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shooting at Dawson College?
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 September 2006 07:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Village Idiot:
I don't want them to track down EVERY deranged poster (there'd be no one left HERE!)...

Hey, guess what? If you come to a forum and insult the participants, they're not going to like you very much. And the moderator isn't going to like you very much. And if you keep it up, you're going to be looking for a new forum to troll. First and last warning.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SDC
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Babbler # 13197

posted 14 September 2006 08:29 AM      Profile for SDC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, just my initials.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3808

posted 14 September 2006 10:25 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
my niece was going down the stairs at Dawson when she saw someone beside her start bleeding prfusely

she ran back to a classroom, turned off her cellphone and hid under a desk until the cops came

fine, but shaken, obvisouly


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 14 September 2006 11:15 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SDC:
...(there's no such thing as a 92-shot magazine for it, but it does take the same magazine as the Beretta Model 92 handgun).

Thanks for the correct.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 September 2006 11:55 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SDC:
No, just my initials.

Ok, fine. Kind of a spooky coincidence though.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 September 2006 11:56 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Hey, guess what? If you come to a forum and insult the participants, they're not going to like you very much. And the moderator isn't going to like you very much. And if you keep it up, you're going to be looking for a new forum to troll. First and last warning.


Michelle, don't hit me please, but I took VI's comment as a bad joke - I coulda been wrong of course...


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Village Idiot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6274

posted 14 September 2006 12:01 PM      Profile for Village Idiot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Hey, guess what? If you come to a forum and insult the participants, they're not going to like you very much. And the moderator isn't going to like you very much. And if you keep it up, you're going to be looking for a new forum to troll. First and last warning.


Hey, guess what? This forum isn't THAT important to me. I had heard elsewhere that Babble was restrictive to the point of ridiculousness (is that a word?), but I guess I just refused to believe it. If this forum (or the forum administrator, anyway, since no one ELSE seemed to have a problem with my post) has so little understanding or appreciation of sarcasm, then I shall certainly do as you suggest, and go elsewhere.

And hey, guess what else? Kiss my shiny metal ass, Michelle. Buh-bye.


From: Undisclosed Location | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 12:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:
Cueball and others, there's a time and place for everything.

Talking about equally valid horrors on this thread is just disrespectful and insensitive (like getting into a political debate at a funeral). Take it to another thread.


Sorry. Nothing I said had anything to do with quantifying the events in question, to belittle one in the face of the other, as Stockholm obtusely alledged, quite the contrary.

I was actually talking about the relationship between the daily mass slaughter conducted by our society, and the validation and creation of the culture of violence through the desenisitizing/santitizing langauge used by those in position of power to describe the activities in which they engage.

What concerns me as well, is the apparent restriction on dialogue being insisted on by some here in the name of propriety, such as that expected by one attending a funeral. What bothers me about this is that no one seems to assert the same "propriety" be observed when we disucuss other events entailing grotesque carnage, as if they have nothing to do with us.

There was no Babble "funeral" for those recently slaughtered in Lebanon, such as the Canadian family killed in the early going of the war. No one ever said anything remotely like: "It is disrespectful and insensitive (like getting into a political debate at a funeral,)" to argue, or discuss the political aspects of the carnage.

In fact, the sensitivity that we allow our selves to assert in the face of brutality being perpetrated against young people in Montreal is in stark contrast to the free for all of political debate that ensued without apparent restraint when the el-Akhras family was more or less wiped out in Lebanon last month.

No one said, hold on a minute, "there is a time and a place for everything..." now is not the time.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 14 September 2006 12:13 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't want them to track down EVERY deranged poster (there'd be no one left HERE!)...

Hey, you're right! That means the whole internet would be dominated by obviously sane rational people like yourself.

quote:
And hey, guess what else? Kiss my shiny metal ass, Michelle. Buh-bye.

Guess yer another one of them Vampirefreaks site folks, eh.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 14 September 2006 12:16 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey, guess what? If you come to a forum and insult the participants, they're not going to like you very much. And the moderator isn't going to like you very much. And if you keep it up, you're going to be looking for a new forum to troll. First and last warning.

Don't sweat it too much, Ms. Moderator. It's just the usual sarcasm from somebody who is disrespectful enough to post dumb jokes on a thread about a public shooting at a school.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 September 2006 01:09 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a photo of Kimveer Gill from his website. I'll post the link rather than the actual photo:

Kimveer Gill


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 01:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is it with the Gothic-fascists anyway? Rampaging around the world slaughtering innocents in random acts of terror?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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Babbler # 13076

posted 14 September 2006 01:38 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I checked out the link posted by the unionist to the site and Gill's page.

I don't know how even a remotely rational person could take this stuff seriously, as some of it, like the "quizzies," have their humourous sides. I imagine a majority of the people there don't take it too seriously and just get off on the sarcasm and "horror fun."

But the accolades to blood-and-gore, satanic rituals and death and suffering are certainly concerning (as well as annoying), since I can see where they could fuel the destructive desires of someone who's already mentally twisted and has uncontrollable violent urges.

What is also a bit weird is that the site is host to a large number of attractive young women, who post photos of themselves in scant overly complimentary clothing and try to look sexy/horny/whatever.

Maybe they are depressed and alienated and feel a need for some sort of recognition, or creating a feeling of being powerful. I don't know. But it's obviously mostly young folks on this "black metal" site. That should tell us something.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
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posted 14 September 2006 01:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But really shouldn't the people who encourage this kind of rampant tribalistic terrorist violence be curtailed by the government and added to the terrorist list, for helping support these type of nihilist campaigns of brutal carnage, against the very roots of western democracy and freedom?

quote:
Maybe they are depressed and alienated and feel a need for some sort of recognition, or creating a feeling of being powerful. I don't know. But it's obviously mostly young folks on this "black metal" site. That should tell us something.

I don't understand how you can even make excuses for these killers. They need to be stamped out.

Sure you might say there are moderate Goth-Nazis, and to be sure there are, but what happens in the back rooms of these interner chat sites where they collude in an international terrorist conspiracy and discuss their destructive nihilistic fantasies?

Look, they even mime SS-like clothings styles and mannerism, isn't that enough to indicate where their true racist world view lies?

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4372

posted 14 September 2006 02:09 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The white suburban community really needs to get a grip on the violence within if they are going to fit into Canadian society.
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
chester the prairie shark
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Babbler # 6993

posted 14 September 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for chester the prairie shark     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
q, if you are using irony to point to the mainstream view of palestine,iran, etc., i don't think people are getting it.
From: Saskatoon | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 02:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:
The white suburban community really needs to get a grip on the violence within if they are going to fit into Canadian society.

Entirely. Where are their leaders now? Repeatedly I see white psychologist making up execuses for these activities by talking about alienation, social repression and bullying rather than confronting the Gothic-nazis head on and condemning them.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 02:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by chester the prairie shark:
q, if you are using irony to point to the mainstream view of palestine,iran, etc., i don't think people are getting it.

Oh you mean its different when we are talking about the activities of our children. Our views of them are a little more subtle an nuanced, and not so easily packaged into sterotypical media pastiche?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 September 2006 03:15 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, I say this as someone who shares the vast majority of your views on many important issues of the day:

Leave this one alone.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 03:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking as someone who actually knows someone who was shot to death in an act of senseless violence, also as someone who has had small caliber pistol put against their head (by a complete stranger,) coupled with a direct threat to kill me, I think you are being extremely insensitive to my pain and heartache.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 14 September 2006 04:03 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't understand how you can even make excuses for these killers. They need to be stamped out.

Try reading my post again. Where did I make excuses for anybody, let alone killers?

quote:
Sure you might say there are moderate Goth-Nazis,

No, actually, I might not say that at all.

quote:
and to be sure there are,

Are there? I said that probably most people who go to these sites don't take the fashions, etc. seriously. "Moderate" has nothing to do with it, especially involving Nazis.

quote:
but what happens in the back rooms of these interner chat sites where they collude in an international terrorist conspiracy and discuss their destructive nihilistic fantasies?

Is that what they do on these sites? You tell me.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 14 September 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Steppenwolf, Cueball us being an insensitive prick, and not actually debating with you. He is attempting to be funny and pithy but ends up just being an asshole.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 04:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The point I am making SA, is that the kind of paranoid logic, and sweeping generalization, coupled with a complete unwillingness to empathize or "understand" the motives of those who commit themselves to these kinds of acts of violence, is precisely the specious logic which is used by many who wish to identify Islam, as essential to the phenomena of Islamic fundamentalist "terrorism," and use it to condemn whole groups of largely innocent people, largely because their philosophical views, and dress code make them uncomfortable or refelct views which to not entirely accord with mainstream european values.

Replace the term Gothic-Nazis with Islamo-Fascist, in my post above and perhaps you will see the similiarities.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 September 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
Steppenwolf, Cueball us being an insensitive prick, and not actually debating with you. He is attempting to be funny and pithy but ends up just being an asshole.

Speaking as someone who actually knows someone who was shot to death in an act of senseless violence, also as someone who has had small caliber pistol put against their head (by a complete stranger,) coupled with a direct threat to kill me, I think you are attempts to deride me are extremley offensive, you stupid asshole.

IN MEMORIAM: Frank Ogiri-Little

That's right. I am the one who is being insensitive. You stuck up moralistic piece of shit:

quote:
Frank Ogiri-Little either rode his bike or walked everywhere. Walking home late one night in Squirrel Hill, his life came to an end.

Frank, a 27-year-old Pitt student, was shot on Aug. 4, at 1:08 a.m. on South Negley Avenue in Squirrel Hill. He was the victim of a robbery attempt that ended tragically.

Friends knew Frank for his overwhelming kindness and willingness to always help out. He spent much of his spare time at Free Ride!, a nonprofit community bike shop located in Point Breeze.

"He was interested for a long time, and then started finding more time for it over the last couple of months," said Jessica McPherson, a Free Ride! coordinator. "He worked on a really nice bike. He put a lot in on it and was riding it around. Then he kept coming back, just to help out with the shop."

After he became a regular at the bike shop, he started working on bike stands made out of recycled bike parts.

"I think he was working on the stands the night he died," McPherson recalls. "We're going to make Frank a little memorial bike stand since he built it."


But no you want to beseach me with your arrogant and stupid moralistic tropes. Oh but now it is different, because some people like you who attended and institution that is similar to the one you might go to have died.

Fuck the sanctimonious wankery is pathetic.

One question: do you see any difference at all between the general weeping whining and outrage being expressed here, about this and the rampant gunning down of black youths in the city of Toronto?

I do.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 14 September 2006 04:23 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But on the same day, more people died in Chechnya, so how dare you be moved!!
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 14 September 2006 04:53 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a question about respect, not morals, cueball. Specifically, it's about you disrespecting those of us who asked for it. I never said you were wrong about black boys on mopeds or the weekly tragedies in the Middle East. I'm not telling you that your thoughts are out of line, I, and many others, are telling you that they are out of line here. You know this, and yet persist, gleefully, I might suggest, and throwing your personal politics in the face of those who are grieving. I am sorry for your friend, but his fate has nothing to do with yesterday, and you using him as a banner to parade your pet cause is disgraceful to us, to your cause, and most of all to your friend. None of these things, including the alleged gunpoint threat you experienced, excuses your insulting mockery on this thread.

These things make you an asshole. It's an airtight case.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5953

posted 14 September 2006 05:04 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think Cueball acted out of line. Many people talked about gun control due to this incident, isn’t that also political?
The general concern for humanity is still there, and people shouldn’t be blamed for expressing other opinions other than the general sadness about what has happened. This is a thread where people come to discuss things, not a condolence book. Cueball is not an asshole, but there are some who are acting like assholes to him.

[ 14 September 2006: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 September 2006 05:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've just read where the problems began on this thread. First of all, I don't think Cueball was out of line either. If it was clear that this thread (or this discussion forum as a whole) was a place for expressions of condolence only when bad things happen, that would be one thing. But it's not. It's a discussion forum where people talk about what is happening. In fact, Cueball tried to be helpful to someone at the beginning of the thread who was directly involved.

The first person in this thread who started this argument, as far as I can tell, is Sans Tache, when he scolded people on this thread for discussing the way the media and the police are using the word "neutralized". And he was successful at starting a wave of recrimination against Cueball. Especially since Cueball explained himself in response to Sans Tache's post. Now, lots of right-wing posters came along and accused us of hating America and being "inappropriate" when we discussed media and military reactions to 9-11 as well. But I'm not sure when exactly babble turned into a place where we're not allowed to criticize the police and the media when an event like this happens.

Catchfire responded to the points about the language employed by the police and media in a reasonable way, by saying that there's really no "right" way to respond when you're in shock or in the midst of dealing with an emergency. Cueball responded quite reasonably as well, saying that the media doesn't try to elicit the same reactions from us when our troops kill more people overseas.

Then, oh surprise of surprises, Stockholm jumped in and started flaming Cueball for his post. From what I can see, that was the beginning of real hostility on this thread, and it snowballed from there. I do appreciate Catchfire's early attempts to try to ask people to put down their personal vendettas. I agree with that. I also agree with Cueball's response, saying that people don't attempt to stop people from airing "impersonal political views" in threads about other tragedies, such as the ones about the middle east, which many other babblers feel as strongly about as this tragedy.

So, my suggestion is this: for those of you who think babble threads should be a place for condolence card thoughts only - maybe start a thread for expressions of condolence only. But really, going after someone for analyzing media reaction to an event like this is not really fair. babble is a place where we do that all the time. I don't think events like this should be exempt from this type of discussion.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 14 September 2006 06:32 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough, Michelle. I retract my asshole comment.

It wasn't Cueball's discussion about media that I objected to, but the spamming later on in the thread with substituting "Gothic-Fascist" or whatever for Islamic. The point was made, and then re-made in what appeared to be purely antagonistic behaviour.

In fact, I really despised the Toronto Star headline this morning that declared Killer loved guns, hated people. In less than 24 hours, the media was able to turn what is obviously a complicated, disturbed and socially significant expression into a simplistic black and white issue. "Oh, he it's because he hated people, see? And he loved guns! Well there's nothing you can do about that, I guess." I'd be more than willling to discuss that sort of thing, and I found Cueball's earlier posts quite valuable.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 September 2006 07:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks very much for that, Catchfire. I'm going to close this thread for length since it's almost 100 posts, but anyone who would like to continue discussing this shooting should feel free to start a continuation thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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