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Author Topic: Should Hostages Pay for Rescue?
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:34 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
According to the CTV,most Canadians think so.

Should organizations be required to pay the cost of the rescue if their personnel are kidnapped in a country where they have been advised not to go?


Yes 10641 votes (76 %)

No 3366 votes (24 %)


Total Votes: 14007


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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Babbler # 9960

posted 24 March 2006 03:37 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
According to the CTV,most Canadians think so.

Oh yeah, 14007 votes on a web poll = most canadians.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 03:40 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
According to the CTV,most Canadians think so.


How did you vote, Staznie? Oh, and don't come to Québec, or else be prepared to pay for your own rescue.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, most Canadians who read CTV online between 0800 and 1200.
From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

How did you vote, Staznie? Oh, and don't come to Québec, or else be prepared to pay for your own rescue.



How do you mean? Oh and I didn't vote, my husband already did and now I can't.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: Staznie ]


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 24 March 2006 03:43 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like the idea posted in the other thread on this topic. If the hostages were to get slapped with a bill for the cost of their retrieval, I think they can pass it on to the governments of the occupying forces in Iraq, who are in a country where they were "advised not to go" by the rest of the international community.
From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 24 March 2006 03:45 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What an idiotic question. Should we check their bank accounts before launching any rescue efforts? Are only the rich worthy of rescue?

CTV has sunk to a new low, if that's possible.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
Ya this is a tough one, but the occupying forces were ordered to go and the CPT were not, so...whatever.
From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
writer
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Babbler # 2513

posted 24 March 2006 03:48 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you don't believe in God?
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 24 March 2006 03:48 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
Ya this is a tough one, but the occupying forces were ordered to go and the CPT were not, so...whatever.

I said "governments of the occupying forces." No one ordered those governments to do anything.


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:50 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
So you don't believe in God?

I do, if your talking to me. why?


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sgm
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posted 24 March 2006 03:50 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's no wonder some news organization would post such a poll in order to help discredit the CPTers as reckless adventurists.

It's practically the function of CTV and other news organizations to serve the interests of the powerful, and it is the misdeeds of those powerful forces that the CPT and other organizations serve to expose and document, at great personal risk.

I'm sure Washington, Ottawa and other capitals would be more than happy to discourage independent observers like the CPT teams from going to places like Colombia, Iraq, the West Bank and elsewhere--there would be that much less attention given to the crimes being committed in those places by 'us' and 'our' allies.


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:53 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yossarian:

I said "governments of the occupying forces." No one ordered those governments to do anything.


I don't understand your logic, why should the occupying forces be responsible for their safety?


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 03:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's imagine that CTV had foreign correspondents actually covering the news out there in the world.

(Yes, I know that CTV is too flaccid actually to be doing that any more, but once they did, so let's just imagine.)

Let's say a CTV journalist had been kidnapped in Baghdad, as American journalist Jill Carroll was in January (and she's still missing). Would Canadians be expecting CTV to do all the work to find him/her? Would Canadians be saying No, no: no way we want our government sending Canadian intelligence experts or police over there, spending one red cent on saving the life of a private-sector journalist who could have stayed home instead?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 24 March 2006 03:55 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
x
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Doug
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posted 24 March 2006 03:55 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd be surprised if they could afford more than a small fraction of the cost of their rescue anyway - though it might be a good idea to charge them something.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 03:55 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Staznie, I feel that homeless people who freeze to death in Canadian cities should have the cost of cleaning up the mess charged to their families, because they didn't apply themselves and use the opportunities that Canada offers.

Same goes for poor neighbourhoods where homes burn down without the benefit of sprinkler systems -- make the family pay for the firefighting costs.

As for the Christian Peacemakers, I think the cost should be charged to the Catholic Church because... well, because they can afford it.

I have a lot of good ideas. Remember, I'm Infallible XXIV.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sgm:
It's no wonder some news organization would post such a poll in order to help discredit the CPTers as reckless adventurists.

It's practically the function of CTV and other news organizations to serve the interests of the powerful, and it is the misdeeds of those powerful forces that the CPT and other organizations serve to expose and document, at great personal risk.

I'm sure Washington, Ottawa and other capitals would be more than happy to discourage independent observers like the CPT teams from going to places like Colombia, Iraq, the West Bank and elsewhere--there would be that much less attention given to the crimes being committed in those places by 'us' and 'our' allies.


The Canadian Government are committing crimes in Colombia and Iraq?


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 03:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

I don't understand your logic, why should the occupying forces be responsible for their safety?


Under international law, the so-called coalition are
supposed to be responsible for the safety of everyone in Iraq - including, oddly enough, the Iraqis.

Not that the Americans have ever been competent enough or moral enough to live up to international law, but that is the law.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 03:59 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Staznie, I feel that homeless people who freeze to death in Canadian cities should have the cost of cleaning up the mess charged to their families, because they didn't apply themselves and use the opportunities that Canada offers.

Same goes for poor neighbourhoods where homes burn down without the benefit of sprinkler systems -- make the family pay for the firefighting costs.

As for the Christian Peacemakers, I think the cost should be charged to the Catholic Church because... well, because they can afford it.

I have a lot of good ideas. Remember, I'm Infallible XXIV.


Well I have to say that is piss poor argument, homelessness and home fires are not caused by intention and in fact are quit passive, flying half way around the world to put your naive ass in the line of fire is a wanton disregard for your life and your rescuers.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 04:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't watch CTV, actually.

Could anyone who does tell me whether they have a single foreign correspondent anywhere?

Maybe covering Buckingham Palace and the White House, but beyond that?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 24 March 2006 04:01 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do, if your talking to me. why?

So do you believe everyone who believes in an entity greater than government should pay for following what they are called to do by that greater order?


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 24 March 2006 04:03 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe covering Buckingham Palace and the White House, but beyond that?

Hollywood? It's kind of like it's own country. Own world, really.


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Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Under international law, the so-called coalition are
supposed to be responsible for the safety of everyone in Iraq - including, oddly enough, the Iraqis.

Not that the Americans have ever been competent enough or moral enough to live up to international law, but that is the law.


Actually Iraq has its own government now so they are responsible again for what happens in their country, so the US is off the hook in that regard. So send the bill to the Iraqi's?
where does personal responsibility come into play here.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:07 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, as Colin Powell said, if you break it....
From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:

So do you believe everyone who believes in an entity greater than government should pay for following what they are called to do by that greater order?


Don't get me wrong, I think their intentions were commendable, even heroic in naive sort of way, but when doing Gods bidding, you must understand that you are doing it on your own. Like the Jesuit Priest who climbed Mt Everest with O2, he didn't expect anybody to rescue him if God betrayed him.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 24 March 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by skdadl:
I don't watch CTV, actually.
Could anyone who does tell me whether they have a single foreign correspondent anywhere?

From the CTV website:

Steve Chao - China

Tom Clark - Washington bureau chief

Tom Kennedy - London bureau chief

Janis Mackey Frayer - Middle East Bureau Chief

Joy Malbon - Washington

Matt McClure - South Asia correspondent

Murray Oliver - African Correspondent

Graham Richardson - LA Bureau Chief, for midwest USA, Mexico, and Central America


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 24 March 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Canadian Government are committing crimes in Colombia and Iraq?

I was speaking generally, since the dubious principle behind the generally worded poll question you cited at the beginning of the thread could be extended to other cases.

Perhaps you missed both the general phrasing of the poll question you quoted, as well as the generalizing phrases in my own post (e.g. 'other capitals' and 'places like'). 'Our' and 'us' were similarly intended broadly--and ironically as well.

As for the specific question of Canadian 'crimes' in Iraq, we're certainly practically complicit in them, in a number of ways.

And the same can, in fact, be said of the situtation in Colombia, though the involvement is still less direct.

But my principal referent for those 'crime scenes' was the United States or 'Washington.'


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 24 March 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, as Colin Powell said, if you break it....

... you might as well break it some more.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 04:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

Actually Iraq has its own government now so they are responsible again for what happens in their country, so the US is off the hook in that regard. So send the bill to the Iraqi's?
where does personal responsibility come into play here.


Staznie, if that were true, the "occupation" troops would leave.

There is an ongoing occupation, Staznie, or hadn't you noticed?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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Babbler # 11952

posted 24 March 2006 04:13 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yossarian:
Well, as Colin Powell said, if you break it....

So if I'm watching the candy store while the owners out, am I responsible for the lady who choked on a jawbreaker?


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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Babbler # 11323

posted 24 March 2006 04:13 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

Well I have to say that is piss poor argument, homelessness and home fires are not caused by intention and in fact are quit passive, flying half way around the world to put your naive ass in the line of fire is a wanton disregard for your life and your rescuers.


Wrong. Wrong, and impious. I don't believe in free will. It was God who sent those Christian Peacemakers to Iraq. God should have considered the consequences beforehand. And God, having soaked humankind's hearts and wallets for millennia, should pay the full cost.

Mind you, given that the hostage-takers had left and no shots were fired, I would say the true costs of the "rescue" portion were probably close to zero.

So, God may be off the hook.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 24 March 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

Actually Iraq has its own government now so they are responsible again for what happens in their country, so the US is off the hook in that regard. So send the bill to the Iraqi's?
where does personal responsibility come into play here.


You actually believe that government is real? Holy smokes, I thought the last few true believers had been forced to stop reading anything by now, for fear of the deluge of evidence threatending their viewpoints.

A government, a state, is only a state when it is capable of defending its borders and maintaining order. Nobody thinks the Iraqi forces or 'government' have any such capacity - hence the continuing presence of an occupying army.

But I'm glad to see that you agree with most people here. Since Iraq has a government (so you say), the US can pack up and leave (and stop building those massive, permanent military bases).


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
So if I'm watching the candy store while the owners out, am I responsible for the lady who choked on a jawbreaker?

Point of clarification: Did you shove it down her throat?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 24 March 2006 04:15 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who says they were rescued? No shots fired. No badguys captured. Sounds like they might have been released.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 04:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I don't watch CTV, actually.
Could anyone who does tell me whether they have a single foreign correspondent anywhere?

From the CTV website:


Janis Mackey Frayer - Middle East Bureau Chief


She would be stationed either in London or in Rome. And she would be hiring stringers, possibly locals.

Anyone notice CTV running independent coverage of Iraq or Afghanistan on the news?

I said flaccid. I meant flaccid.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:16 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Staznie, if that were true, the "occupation" troops would leave.

There is an ongoing occupation, Staznie, or hadn't you noticed?


Yes I am aware of the Iraq war, and I am aware of the US involvement, and I am also aware that the US are assisting and training the Iraqi forces and police for the eventual hand over.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:16 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yay FM, great minds think alike.

At least on this thread...


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:16 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Point of clarification: Did you shove it down her throat?


too bad you missed the anology.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 24 March 2006 04:17 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Who says they were rescued? No shots fired. No badguys captured. Sounds like they might have been released.

Or even ransomed.

If this is anything like the Jessica Lynch case, a complete or accurate story might take weeks to emerge. Or even longer, because there were more reporters in Iraq at that time. It was far safer for them -- in the middle of an invasion.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
too bad you missed the anology.

Okay, then explain it again. What does minding a candy store have to do with the idea that if "you break it, you pay for it"?


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

too bad you missed the anology.


Yeah, I missed all my classes in medical school.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
rabble-rouser
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posted 24 March 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 'lance:

Or even ransomed.

If this is anything like the Jessica Lynch case, a complete or accurate story might take weeks to emerge. Or even longer, because there were more reporters in Iraq at that time. It was far safer for them -- in the middle of an invasion.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


yes i suppose we are putting the cart before the horse here, i'll take that blame with this thread.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:20 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yossarian:

Okay, then explain it again. What does minding a candy store have to do with the idea that if "you break it, you pay for it"?


omg i can't believe i have to do this

Candy store = Iraq
owner = iraq government
person watching = US forces
lady = christians
jawbreaker = kidnapping


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
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posted 24 March 2006 04:21 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps we are beating a dead horse that has already left the barn, broken something, and then been left to mind a candy store.
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God sent them to Iraq. God rescued them. I can't believe the friggin' atheists on this thread who are trying to give credit (and cash) to some mere armed mortals for this patently Divine act of grace.

Conclusion: Nothing owing for this rescue.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 24 March 2006 04:22 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or perhaps this is really about whether god exists. Or maybe its about whether governments exist.
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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Babbler # 11952

posted 24 March 2006 04:23 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
Perhaps we are beating a dead horse that has already left the barn, broken something, and then been left to mind a candy store.

LOL, if your trying to make of my anology, it worked, LOL


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:23 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

omg i can't believe i have to do this

Candy store = Iraq
owner = iraq government
person watching = US forces
lady = christians
jawbreaker = kidnapping


Ok, ok, now I get it. Thanks for spelling it out that way! Please accept my sincerest anologies.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
rabble-rouser
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posted 24 March 2006 04:23 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
God sent them to Iraq. God rescued them. I can't believe the friggin' atheists on this thread who are trying to give credit (and cash) to some mere armed mortals for this patently Divine act of grace.

Conclusion: Nothing owing for this rescue.



I certainly hope you weren't trying to insult me by calling me an atheist.

From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
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posted 24 March 2006 04:23 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nothing owing for this rescue.

Unless the pay-off went to the devil. Then we are all in big trouble.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 March 2006 04:25 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Know what's the best part about God "calling" people to do things? They're always things those people want to do anyway! If that isn't proof of His Almighty Awesomeness, I don't know what is!

What's that, God? You want me to what? Take a coffee break?? I'm on it, Big Guy!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 24 March 2006 04:26 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by skdadl:
Anyone notice CTV running independent coverage of Iraq or Afghanistan on the news?

CTV had someone covering Harpoon in Afghanistan, but beyond that, I have no idea.

Generally the only CTV I watch is when Don Newman's 'Politics' goes to commercial, and I switch over to the Duffster for a few minutes before going back to CBC.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 24 March 2006 04:31 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I think the rule should be: if Canada sends its military to a far-off land to save the people there from Islamic dictatorship, then it's free.

If anyone there is Canadian, then they have to pay
GST (General saving tax).


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 24 March 2006 04:32 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
Question. As no one was home when they were rescued does anyone know if anyone stayed behind from the rescue force to see who did come home? If they have been watching for months as Harper implied did they actually catch anyone who was involved? The house presumably belonged to someone who either got rent or lived in it? Just curious.

I always smile everytime television news reports another grow op busted while no one was home, it happens frequently. Why do the Mounties not wait until the grow oppee returns? Thats why I ask about the hostages, because everytime they mention the grow op things its always when no one was home.


From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:33 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
Because JTF 2 were involved we'll never know the full story.
From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 24 March 2006 04:34 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
Don't get me wrong, I think their intentions were commendable, even heroic in naive sort of way, but when doing Gods bidding, you must understand that you are doing it on your own.

They did understand that. They didn't ask to be "rescued." In fact CPT repeatedly asked that there be no military intervention on their behalf.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
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posted 24 March 2006 04:35 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't you just love democracy? No wonder we are itching to export it!
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 04:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

Yes I am aware of the Iraq war, and I am aware of the US involvement, and I am also aware that the US are assisting and training the Iraqi forces and police for the eventual hand over.


Good. You are aware that the U.S. and its "coalition partners" - ha! - are the occupying power.

Proceed to step 2. International law makes the occupying power responsible for the safety of everyone present.

So, in a way, you're right: Canadians shouldn't be paying. The Americans and the Brits owe us.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:37 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So staznie, if I understand the analogy correctly, Saddam ran a candy store.

He ran it very badly, no one would dispute that. I mean, he kept order in the store, but he did it by kidnapping and killing staff who didn't follow his every whim, and by making customers feel like he was watching their every move like a hawk.

So George, Tony, Silvio, and a few of their friends decided they would take over the store -- temporarily, of course, until they could find a reliable staff member to run it.

Some of their other friends said they thought maybe it wasn't such a great idea to take over the store, at least not without a coherent plan of what the hell they were going to do once they'd taken it over.

George and friends thought about that for a second, and said, "Nah. We know what we're doing." They walked into the store and set off several thousand tonnes of explosives and ammunition, killing a bunch of the staff and a few customers. Saddam naturally ran into the back room, and holed himself up there until he was forced to open the door.

George runs the store for a bit, and it turns out a coherent takeover plan might maybe have been a good idea, assuming that the takeover itself was in fact a good idea. It's a little chaotic, perhaps more chaotic than it needed to be.

Eventually George hands the store over to some of the staff members, but he and his friends have stuck around. Supposedly they're still there to help make sure the store runs smoothly, as the explosives and ammo kind of messed the place up a bit. But they spend too much time defending themselves from the staff members (who just want them to get the hell out) to be of much use to anyone.

I want to get to the bit with the customer and the jawbreaker, but my brain's starting to hurt. Anyone want to pick up where I've left off?


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CWW
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posted 24 March 2006 04:38 PM      Profile for CWW     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

Actually Iraq has its own government now so they are responsible again for what happens in their country, so the US is off the hook in that regard.


That's hilarious and sad all at the same time


From: Edmonton/ Calgary/Nelson | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:38 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:

I certainly hope you weren't trying to insult me by calling me an atheist.

Not at all, Staznie. In my home, it's considered a compliment.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 24 March 2006 04:44 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
Yes I am aware of the Iraq war, and I am aware of the US involvement, and I am also aware that the US are assisting and training the Iraqi forces and police for the eventual hand over.

Are you also aware of the legal principle that all ill effects flowing from an illegal act are the responsibility of the perpetrator of the illegal act?

So, if you illegally and forcefully entered the candy store intending to take it from the owner, which would be a more accurate analogy, and you surprised a customer such that they swallowed and choked on a jawbreaker, then, yes, you would be responsible.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 24 March 2006 04:50 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yossarian:
So staznie, if I understand the analogy correctly, Saddam ran a candy store....

Oh, that was so much better than I could muster, Yossarian.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:52 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:

Are you also aware of the legal principle that all ill effects flowing from an illegal act are the responsibility of the perpetrator of the illegal act?

So, if you illegally and forcefully entered the candy store intending to take it from the owner, which would be a more accurate analogy, and you surprised a customer such that they swallowed and choked on a jawbreaker, then, yes, you would be responsible.


the candy store was already occupied by the time the lady(CPT) ate the candy.

Why does that word illegal keep coming up? If your refering to some foo-foo international law, then no humanitarian intervention would occur in any country. Besides sometimes law have to be broken because they protect the tyrannical. But i'm not going to change your mind about the iraq war as you will probably not change mine.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 24 March 2006 04:53 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I don't know, Transplant -- you made the same point and managed to work in the jawbreaker as well in under four lines.
From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 04:56 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
Actually the candy store was not run by one person before(saddam) it was owned by the shareholders(iraqi people), the US took over the store from the bad shop keeper(saddam) to give it back to the shareholders. the only problem is the other stores(syria) in the neighbourhood wants to see the candy store go under so they do nothing but continue to send bad people into the store to cause havok.

i like this anology thing, it sfun.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 24 March 2006 05:05 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
your refering to some foo-foo international law,

Yes, we are referring to international law. People who think that international law is "foo-foo" are simply apologists for international criminals.

Humanitarian interventions may occur under international law, contrary to your false assertion. Title VII of the UN Charter allows for the UN Security Council to make such decisions.

What may NOT occur, legally, is one or another country declaring a humanitarian invention, and invading another country on that basis.

The UN Charter (approved by the United States Congress under the Constitutional Treaty-making power as the law of the land) REQUIRES that any country contemplating a "humanitarian invasion" obtain the approval of the Security Council before proceding.

As with any law, it can be changed. But it has to be obeyed until it IS changed. There's nothing "foo-foo" about that, it is one of the most important advances in human affairs over the past century.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 05:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
some foo-foo international law

Is this an opening for Makwa?

Makwa, Stasie is poo-pooing the foo-foo.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 24 March 2006 05:13 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
Why does that word illegal keep coming up? If your refering to some foo-foo international law, then no humanitarian intervention would occur in any country. Besides sometimes law have to be broken because they protect the tyrannical. But i'm not going to change your mind about the iraq war as you will probably not change mine.

At least you got that last part right.

Jeff, who just happens to be a real-life lawyer, already addresssed the foo-foo bit.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 24 March 2006 05:13 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is this an opening for Makwa?

Makwa, Stasie is poo-pooing the foo-foo.


(if Makwa doesn't show up in an hour, I'm t**-h**ing through).

quote:
Besides sometimes law have to be broken because they protect the tyrannical.

Nice use of the passive voice. Laws have to be broken by someone.

To whom do you want to grant the power to decide what laws can be broken, when and why? To the biggest and strongest -- on the grounds that they are the biggest and strongest, and so we can't stop them anyway? On the grounds that only the biggest and strongest can be the "policemen"?

If so, don't pussyfoot around with phrases like "sometimes laws have to be broken." Such an attitude recognizes no law whatsoever, except the law of force.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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posted 24 March 2006 05:35 PM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
I sleep at night with sincerity knowing that what the Coalition is doing in Iraq, and what Canadians are doing in Afghan is morally right, according to my ethic and upbringing. Not one of you could change my mind without some serious evidence of mass wrong doing by the Us/canadian forces. Each individual soldier over there has it hard enough without knowing that some are condemning their work. The US will finish the job regardless of what the left says, after all if your not part of the solution....

and after Bush is gone, i believe the democratic left will still remain in Iraq until the job is done.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 24 March 2006 05:37 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I sleep at night with sincerity knowing that what the Coalition is doing in Iraq, and what Canadians are doing in Afghan is morally right, according to my ethic and upbringing.

So I take it that your answer to either my second or third questions, or both, would be "yes"?

quote:
Not one of you could change my mind without some serious evidence of mass wrong doing by the Us/canadian forces.

Abu Ghraib wasn't/isn't enough for you?

quote:
The US will finish the job regardless of what the left says, after all if your not part of the solution....

Actually I expect the US will stay in Iraq not more than another couple of years, declare victory, and slink away to leave the place in absolute chaos and anarchy, with the possible exception of the Kurdish portion.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 March 2006 05:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's funny, Stasie.

I don't sleep very well at night. I wake up to thoughts of innocents on fire, and I find it hard to get back to sleep.

But I'm sure we're all glad that you personally are so comfy.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 24 March 2006 05:57 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Besides sometimes law have to be broken because they protect the tyrannical.

And yet, as Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch pointed out in a recent essay (print only, I'm afraid), breaking the laws also destroys the standards by which 'tyrants' are so judged.

I'm afraid I have to paraphrase from memory here, but Roth was arguing that such illegal actions are also assaults on the very principles by which we can judge someone like Saddam Hussein as a criminal.

More about Roth's view on the Iraq invasion is here.


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 24 March 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
I sleep at night with sincerity knowing that what the Coalition is doing in Iraq, and what Canadians are doing in Afghan is morally right...

To conflate the two is to sleep in profound and deep ignorance, and I say that knowing that many here also conflate the two.

quote:
Not one of you could change my mind without some serious evidence of mass wrong doing by the Us/canadian forces.[/QB]

If Canada hitches its wagon to US criminal policy in Iraq then it will deservedly earn a share of the world's enmity.

As for evidence of mass wrong doing by the US, your ignorance must be willful.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: Transplant ]


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 24 March 2006 06:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about polling Canadian's every time they want to give taxpayer handouts to corporations ?. Ask Canadian's how they feel about paying several times more for corporate welfare than social spending. he he
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 March 2006 09:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
According to the CTV,most Canadians think so.

Should organizations be required to pay the cost of the rescue if their personnel are kidnapped in a country where they have been advised not to go?


Yes 10641 votes (76 %)

No 3366 votes (24 %)


Total Votes: 14007


Canada was under no obligation to undertake the "rescue" of the hostages, or to take extraordinary measures beyond negotiations and pleas. The responsibility for operations was taken up by the Canadian government, the Iraqi puppet regieme, and the US. The Christian Peacemaker teams went their fully apprised of the danger, and knowingly put themselves on the line -- they are all grown up people, and make their own decisions.

I personally would go myself, except that I don't want my head chopped off by some very angry 19 year old from Karbala. However, there are persons out their considerably braver than I.

The goverments obviously wanted to avoid any bad press that might have resulted from the possible execution.

Ask George Bush for the money, 5 years ago travel for foreigners in Iraq was significantly safer than it is in Mexico.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 March 2006 09:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come to think of it Iraq was probably safer for foreigners than Detroit.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wee Mousie
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posted 25 March 2006 03:47 AM      Profile for Wee Mousie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Staznie:
. . . Should organizations be required to pay the cost of the rescue if their personnel are kidnapped in a country where they have been advised not to go?
Yes 10641 votes (76 %)
No 3366 votes (24 %)
Total Votes: 14007


And if they had asked should you be required to pay the cost of the rescue if you get into trouble where you have been advised not to go?

I am willing to bet the response would have been the reverse, only greater.


There are times when I imagine that Robert Heinlein may have been correct, "Democracy is the act adding zeros."

With CTV Network viewers, I am certain.

[ 25 March 2006: Message edited by: Wee Mousie ]


From: Mouse Hole | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11952

posted 25 March 2006 09:48 AM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 'lance:

Actually I expect the US will stay in Iraq not more than another couple of years, declare victory, and slink away to leave the place in absolute chaos and anarchy, with the possible exception of the Kurdish portion.


Abu Ghraib wasn't/isn't enough for you?

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


I could have sworn i said "mass" wrong doing, how many people were charged for that shindig, a few?

Do you really expect that every single soldier is going to act like a saint when pushed into extremely stressful situations?


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
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Babbler # 11952

posted 25 March 2006 09:48 AM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wee Mousie:

And if they had asked should you be required to pay the cost of the rescue if you get into trouble where you have been advised not to go?

I am willing to bet the response would have been the reverse, only greater.


There are times when I imagine that Robert Heinlein may have been correct, "Democracy is the act adding zeros."

With CTV Network viewers, I am certain.

[ 25 March 2006: Message edited by: Wee Mousie ]


we already touched on that, thanks.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Staznie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11952

posted 25 March 2006 09:50 AM      Profile for Staznie        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:


As for evidence of mass wrong doing by the US, your ignorance must be willful.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: Transplant ]


examples of mass wrong doing please.


From: No longer in Hamilton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 March 2006 10:00 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This isn't really news. Since it's almost at the maximum length, I'll just close it. Feel free to start a new thread about it in another forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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