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» babble   » current events   » national news   » Afghanistan: Death Sentence for Converting to Christianity

   
Author Topic: Afghanistan: Death Sentence for Converting to Christianity
jeff house
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posted 23 March 2006 01:08 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The case of the man being prosecuted for refusing to convert to Islam is of more importance than might first appear.

First, he received a death sentence for this "crime", which would get anyone's attention.

Second, the judiciary of Afghanistan has apparently held that the CONSTITUTION of Afghanistan REQUIRES this result.

Of course, there has been an outcry, and as a result, the Afghans are saying the man is "insane", and may therefore be spared.

The man himself stated:

quote:
"I'm not an apostate. I'm obedient to God but I'm a Christian, that's my choice,"

Clearly the ravings of a lunatic. But I wonder about all those Canadian soldiers who will be giving their lives for this "democracy"; doesn't it stick in their craw that, if they themselves were citizens of Afghanistan, they would be executed?

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-03-23T090039Z_01_ISL286290_RTRUKOC_0_UK-RELIGION-AFGHAN.xml

[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: jeff house ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 02:38 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think they would face execution as the crime isn't being a christian but having left Islam and not returned prior to the mandated deadline. But still your point is well taken. Becuase the argument for being there, according to Harper, is to support Canadian values and if that is not true, and I don't believe it is, why are we there?
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 March 2006 02:38 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
I think the case raises a number of questions:

1) the nature of Islamic law (sharia) and how wide its range of tolerance truly is - can a tolerant version of Islamic law be implemented? It's a complicated debate but it is one that many Moslem modernist/reformist/progressive theological thinkers, especially in the French-speaking world, are trying to tackle, as indicated by the dozens of new books on reforming Islam that are published every year in the French-speaking world, unfortunately with very little sympathy from either their Moslem brethren or Western progressives as the scornful reaction here on Babble to the anti-fundamentalist manifesto by Rushdie and others in a major French leftwing weekly a few weeks ago indicated

2) there are too many Babble threads on Afghanistan to follow but there is the question of whether Canadians can have any influence on the evolution of Afghan society by just withdrawing as many are proposing. If Canadians stay, are they just supporting a bad government, or just being on one side of an internal conflict? On the other hand, if they withdraw, are they or are we just abandoning people to the Taliban or other fundamentalists (whether close to government or in opposition)? Or can Canadians return to their original UN-mandated mission? I mean, was there a problem with the original mission of providing security in the capital and helping with reconstruction projects? I hadN't read of any major problems. And is there no other way of defeating the Taliban than a combat mission that appears to depart from the UN mandate and the 2001 Bonn Conference objectives?

[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 March 2006 02:40 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think they would face execution as the crime isn't being a christian but having left Islam and not returned prior to the mandated deadline.

Frustrated Mess, that law is a clear and direct violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights and a form of religious repression.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 02:43 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, and ...
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 March 2006 02:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To me, the more basic problem facing a number of cultures around the world - not just Muslim ones, either - is how severely deformed and derailed they have become in response to Western imperialism of the last three (at least) centuries.

I think it is absurd for Westerners to think that they can do much more than support thoughtful people in those cultures who are trying to rescue rich traditions from the deformations that have followed defensive reactions to the West.

I also think it is curious to see which cultures Westerners focus on and which they avoid.


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Critical Mass2
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posted 23 March 2006 02:48 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
The basic right Frustrated Mess is to have a religion or not have a religion or to change one's religion. No government is allowed to intefere with the right to change one's religion.

It's very basic. The point is the Afghan authorities have no right to make any deadlines about changing anything. Or not changing anything.

But the incident raises the point about what exactly foreign governments and forces are supporting. Certainly not this repressive religious policy.

[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 23 March 2006 02:52 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, thank God we went in to oust those Islamic fundamentalists. This new democratic Afghanistan is so much better.



From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 03:17 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
The basic right Frustrated Mess is to have a religion or not have a religion or to change one's religion. No government is allowed to intefere with the right to change one's religion.

It's very basic. The point is the Afghan authorities have no right to make any deadlines about changing anything. Or not changing anything.
[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


Did I suggest anything differently?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 March 2006 03:21 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
No. The point is worth repeating nonetheless.
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 03:38 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is true. Worth repeating many times over.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 23 March 2006 04:23 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apologies for thread drift, but I thought I would mention another Afghan case involving a man already in prison for arguing that Islamic law could be interpreted in a way that favours women's rights:
quote:
On October 11, Ali Mohaqiq Nasab, editor of the monthly Haqooq-i-Zan (Woman's Rights), was sentenced to two years in prison on blasphemy charges for allegedly offending Islam by suggesting the need for reinterpreting Islamic law to protect women’s rights. His sentence was the first such conviction in post-Taliban Afghanistan. Despite significant public outcry from inside and outside Afghanistan, he remains behind bars as of the time of writing.
I don't believe this case, which also raises questions about the human rights standards of the government we're supporting, gained much attention at the time.

A draft letter from Pen Canada has a bit more information.


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 23 March 2006 04:33 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From December: High Court allows release of journalist Ali Mohaqiq Nasab
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 23 March 2006 04:42 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kill Christian convert, Afghan clerics demand

quote:
Mar. 23, 2006. 03:23 PM
ASSOCIATED PRESS


KABUL — Senior Muslim clerics demanded today that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to international pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

In an unusual move, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai today seeking a "favourable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's laws for becoming a Christian.

His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim country and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hardline regime was ousted in 2001.

The trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry.



From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 March 2006 04:52 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate

Maybe our military might want to shoot him, moderately. Just a moderate shot to the head or something. Could pre-emptively save plenty of lives.

I think we also might want to avoid using the term "moderate Muslim" here at babble, if this is what it really means.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 23 March 2006 04:53 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
High Court allows release of journalist Ali Mohaqiq Nasab

Well, that's good news. The HRW page suggested he was still incarcerated.

I note that the story linked to speaks of a reduced sentence, but it appears the crime of blasphemy remains on the books, and still punishable by imprisonment.


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 March 2006 05:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am really looking forwad to the intercession of Ms. Rice and our own Mr. Harper in the cases of gay people being held in prison in Kandahar, as well as women being held there in "protective" custody because of their deviance. Will the Canadian government be sending a cosular delegation to the prison with an eye towards offereing refugees status to said detainees?

When do people think we can expect and anouncement from the State Department or the PMO's on these critical human rights cases?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
solarpower
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posted 23 March 2006 07:24 PM      Profile for solarpower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd like to see a lawyer well-versed in Shariah Law fighting this one.
I'm assuming that he never embraced Islam as a conscious decision in the first place.
Born into a Muslim family, he had to follow suit, like religion is genetic or something. so as a child he was coerced which is against Islamic law.
If he never made the actual decision to be Muslim then he can't be faulted for leaving Islam.

From: that which the creator created from | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 March 2006 07:36 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by solarpower:
If he never made the actual decision to be Muslim then he can't be faulted for leaving Islam.

That's an interesting defence.

I would argue that his accusers, and those who are militarily backing them, are committing a crime against humanity.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 March 2006 07:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, well being Apostate is an important factor. It played heavily in the decision to make a Fatwa against Salman Rushdie.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pablum
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posted 23 March 2006 07:38 PM      Profile for pablum     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mr. Magoo: Maybe our military might want to shoot him, moderately. Just a moderate shot to the head or something. Could pre-emptively save plenty of lives.
I think we also might want to avoid using the term "moderate Muslim" here at babble, if this is what it really means.

Huh?

Careful when you say stupid things. Otherwise, people might think you are.


From: you can't get there from here | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 23 March 2006 07:45 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by solarpower:
If he never made the actual decision to be Muslim then he can't be faulted for leaving Islam.
-
Even if at one time he committed to Islam, why shouldn't he be able to leave of his own free will?

I haven't heard reaction from Canadian Muslims to this particular case - has anyone?


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brett Mann
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posted 23 March 2006 08:18 PM      Profile for Brett Mann        Edit/Delete Post
This is far from an original thought - we now have a legitimate security interest in modifying extreme Islamic beliefs. Al Qaeda poses a real threat to Canadians and while it must be confronted on the battlefield, it cannot be defeated there. In the modern world, a wrong-headed (and anti-true Islam), retrograde, intolerant and aggressive culture and belief system cannot be allowed to thrive. Al Qaeda draws its recruits from the huge number of young Muslims who have been convinced that the West is out to destroy Islam. There's a whole lot of Muslims living in Canada and elsewhere who know this is not true, and they have friends and family in their countries of origin, and they all have cellphones.

I am finding this developing story of western Muslims interceeding for hostages in Iraq very interesting. Apparently an imprisoned Arab-British citizen in jail in Britain on terrorist charges made an appeal to his former comrades in Iraq to spare their British hostage. A representative of a major Canadian Islamic organization, sorry, I don't recall which one, was on the CBC a few days ago saying his colleagues were in touch with people in Afghanistan to explain that abandoning Islam was not necessarily a capital crime in true Islam.

Do you see? Bit by bit, court-case and appeal and crisis at a time, those elements in Afghanistan most inimicable to our interests and the interests of the Afghani people and the interests of people period are being peacefully challenged in their beliefs and asked to look at the world in a new way. And the effort is being co-ordinated and led by Canadians at this point in time.


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Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 08:27 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I made the point with regard to the fact the crime was converting to Islam only as clarification. I think we can all agree regardless of the specific crime, it still ought not be a crime nevermind such a serious one.

With that said, I would also suggest that we ought to be careful how we criticize and throw about terms like moderate. The issue is not so much with Islam but with the literal interpretation of ancient text and the application of those literal interpretations into law.

As extreme as the Afghan case is, let's remember we have biblical literalists over here, too, who just sought to have the biblical story of creation taught along side evolution in science classes.

Not as extreme, I agree. But it is but a few backward evolutionary steps along the social ladder from squeezing Darwin out of the classroom to stoning adulterers.

I would also remind those supporters of the war in Afghanistan, and now Canada's involvement, that these are exactly the sorts of excesses so many were trying to bring to the world's attention prior to Osama became a household world.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
pablum
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posted 23 March 2006 08:28 PM      Profile for pablum     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a thought:

What if there were riots in the streets of Canada, the US and across Europe, where thousands were chanting, "Death to the Mahommadian! Death to the Arab!", burning the flags of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, and sacking the embassies of Islamic nations? What if there were Christian leaders calling for a Crusade?

Would we shocked and appalled?


From: you can't get there from here | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 March 2006 08:32 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pablum:
Here's a thought:

What if there were riots in the streets of Canada, the US and across Europe, where thousands were chanting, "Death to the Mahommadian! Death to the Arab!", burning the flags of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, and sacking the embassies of Islamic nations? What if there were Christian leaders calling for a Crusade?

Would we shocked and appalled?


We would indeed. But I think you've just accurately described the United States of America.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 March 2006 08:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Originally posted by solarpower:
If he never made the actual decision to be Muslim then he can't be faulted for leaving Islam.
-
Even if at one time he committed to Islam, why shouldn't he be able to leave of his own free will?

I haven't heard reaction from Canadian Muslims to this particular case - has anyone?



Well look, that is the way we look at it. But this is not the particular brand of Sharia being applied here. And, it should be noted, Sharia, is not a unified body of law as CM2 is implying. It has been independently developed throughout the Islamic traditions, much as the way the by-laws in Toronto are not the same as those in Vancouver.

Perhaps it would even be better to compare the difference between American jurisprudence and Canadian. Differences in application are varied, even though they share the same root. In this manner the death penalty is proscribed as punishment in Canada but widely practiced in the states.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 March 2006 08:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pablum:
Here's a thought:

What if there were riots in the streets of Canada, the US and across Europe, where thousands were chanting, "Death to the Mahommadian! Death to the Arab!", burning the flags of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, and sacking the embassies of Islamic nations? What if there were Christian leaders calling for a Crusade?

Would we shocked and appalled?



Why the need. The US army is in Baghdad? What would be the point of protesting and calling for something that is more or less happening anyway?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 23 March 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
We would indeed. But I think you've just accurately described the United States of America.

Don't be coy! You mean the American guy who lives at Prairie Chapel Ranch , met with other western leaders in the Azores and insisted on characterizing the invasion of Iraq as a crusade.

That guy and the religious scholars (Falwell, LeHaye, Graham, etc) who devoted sermons to fervently praying for the Pres's crusade and possible conversion of the infidels. Right?


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
marzo
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posted 23 March 2006 08:43 PM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Abdul Rahman should be given refugee status here since he could likely be killed by a lynch-mob even if he is spared legal execution.
From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 08:43 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 March 2006 08:46 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by siren:

Don't be coy! You mean the American guy who lives at Prairie Chapel Ranch , met with other western leaders in the Azores and insisted on characterizing the invasion of Iraq as a crusade.

That guy and the religious scholars (Falwell, LeHaye, Graham, etc) who devoted sermons to fervently praying for the Pres's crusade and possible conversion of the infidels. Right?



Right!


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 23 March 2006 08:57 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
unionist -- I just had a hunch that's who you meant.


quote:
Originally posted by marzo:
Abdul Rahman should be given refugee status here since he could likely be killed by a lynch-mob even if he is spared legal execution.

Well, there doesn't seem to be much support for that among some in Afghanistan:

quote:
Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, agreed. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


This has the potential to be a defining moment for all concerned. If it is not handled properly -- but who can handle it properly? Certainly no the US.

quote:
The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

~~~~~~~~
Hamidullah warned that if the government frees Rahman, "there will be an uprising" like one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

"The government will lose the support of the people," he said. "What sort of democracy would it be if the government ignored the will of all the people."

Afghan Clerics Demand Convert Be Killed, AP



From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brett Mann
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posted 23 March 2006 09:14 PM      Profile for Brett Mann        Edit/Delete Post
Just a clarification to all. The reason I speak with such confidence about the necessity to diminish and eliminate fundamentalist Islamic thinking is precisely because I have such respect for Islam. I've made myself known as a self-described Christian around here, but not often enough told how I was led to Christ through the Sufis, an esoteric branch of Islam (and much more). It is clear to me, for example, that the God of Abraham is the same God worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims. Nothing is more offensive and disgusting to me than the anti-Islamic calumny currently circulated in the lower regions of the right wing bleaugh-osphere that Muslims worship a pagan "moon god".

Islamic learning and wisdom I have come to learn was the font of most that we hold intellectually near and dear in western culture, from the romance poetry of Shakespeare to astronomy, mathmetics any many other unacknowledged foundational contributions to our western culture.

So my views on the necessity of killing al Qaeda are grounded in a respect for Islam. I'm being provocative. I apologize. Let me clarify - killing al Qaeda for me is a police/diplomacy-development-education/military project, in that order of priority. And assuming that the threat al Qaeda presents to Canadians ("al Qaeda" as short hand for Jemma Islamya, Moros Liberation Front, the Egyptian Brotherhood, etc.) is trivial or nonexistent is not an option in a reasonable and informed debate on this topic.


From: Prince Edward County ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 23 March 2006 10:10 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
eliminate fundamentalist Islamic thinking

See, I have a problem with that right away. Why is any other fundamentalist religious thinking acceptable?

Both Blair and Bush have incited God in defence of their invading Iraq and killing far more civilians than Al Qaeda has. Are muslim lives worth less?

The Christian and Jewish fundamentalists are joining forces to expand Israel at a cost to Palestinian rights and, in too many cases, lives. Why is that more acceptable than the evil aims of Al Qaeda?

Why is the potential of nuclear weapons in the hands of fundamentalist Hindus not of dire concern to Canadians?

I have a problem with condemning only one flavor of fundamentalism when all are grounded in the philosophy of the "one and true chosen people".

[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 23 March 2006 10:54 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Both Blair and Bush have incited God..



err... I think you mean invoked....

btw, Jeff House, could you *please* learn what means...

[ 23 March 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
siren
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 March 2006 11:33 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
[QB]

err... I think you mean invoked....


Oh, .... I'm not so sure that "incited" isn't correct.

On the other hand, if it is correct, odd that gawd hasn't sent down a thunderbolt or two to smite the blasphemers.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 March 2006 11:55 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Mann:
The reason I speak with such confidence about the necessity to diminish and eliminate fundamentalist Islamic thinking is precisely because I have such respect for Islam.

Right. I see. Your words worry me.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 March 2006 11:57 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by siren:

... odd that gawd hasn't sent down a thunderbolt or two to smite the blasphemers.


Don't worry, she will, in her own good time...


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 24 March 2006 12:01 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd correct it, but it seems to be working as is.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 24 March 2006 12:12 AM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"He is considered to be a moderate." Damn sneaky passive voice constructions. Considered by who? (OK, whom, if you insist.)

quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I haven't heard reaction from Canadian Muslims to this particular case - has anyone?

Muslim Canadian Congress: Free Afghan Christian

CAIR-Canada and Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Assn: Release Afghan convert

Canadian Islamic Congress: persecution of convert contrary to Islam

Of related interest, an entire web page of Muslim organizations speaking out against terror

Nice to see Condoleeza Rice is trying to save a life for a change, but where's her apology for putting this regime, a virtual carbon copy of the Taliban, into power?


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6874

posted 24 March 2006 12:36 AM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by swallow:

Muslim Canadian Congress: Free Afghan Christian

CAIR-Canada and Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Assn: Release Afghan convert

Canadian Islamic Congress: persecution of convert contrary to Islam

Of related interest, an entire web page of Muslim organizations speaking out against terror


Good to see them support his struggle, never doubted they would.

quote:
Originally posted by swallow:
Nice to see Condoleeza Rice is trying to save a life for a change, but where's her apology for putting this regime, a virtual carbon copy of the Taliban, into power?

In some alternate universe...

.

So, do you think any country is going to step up and take this guy in as a refugee? The US will probably at least try to convince Karsai to overturn the death sentence, but I don't think the government will want to admit that they installed a government in Afghanistan that violates the UN declaration of human rights, again. (I know the US skates around the human rights issue themselves, but that's beside the point)....

I don't think Canada and Harper will step up and take him as a refugee either, considering that this would be an admission that the country that thier (we're) occuping violates human rights. So, since neither government would want to face the potential political ramifications of taking him in, I think seeking refugee status in a mainland European country, or a developing country is his best shot.

[ 24 March 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]


From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 24 March 2006 12:51 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
That's an interesting defence.

Yeah, I would agree. BUT that would only be of value if the people to whom the argument was directed were behaving rationally.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7470

posted 24 March 2006 12:53 AM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:

...So, since neither government would want to face the potential political ramifications of taking him in, I think seeking refugee status in a mainland European country, or a developing country is his best shot.


Well, you may be right that refugee status in Europe is Rahman's best, er, "shot".

However, many clerics have already considered and rejected this. So, it would not solve the controversy at all.

quote:
But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


From my post, about 10 up.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
pablum
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12264

posted 24 March 2006 12:57 AM      Profile for pablum     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why do you insist on considering this mission in Afghanistan to be Harper's baby?

He inherited this quagmire from that silver-spooned little shit Martin.

It was Martin's government that first agreed to take this role on. The army started preparing for it last summer - long before the election was even called. In fact, the first soldiers started to fly over before election night. I remember it well, because it was on the news.

All this sanctimonious decrying of Harper is utter nonsense. You want to blame someone for this pile of feces? Blame Layton. After all, he held the trump card during Paulie's minority government. If this mission - which Bill Graham aptly and accurately predicted would be difficult and dangerous - was so damned important to the NDPers, then Layton should've done something back in November of 2004.

No, he didn't. He shut his cakehole for the sake of strongarming Martin into a social spending budget. The price for that was silence on this mission.

But now that the Cons are in power, all of a sudden this is spun out like it was Harper's little baby all along. What hypocrisy! What nonsense!

Exactly how different would your rants be if Martin's Libs had won, and Layton was once again selling his silence to be part of the power group?


From: you can't get there from here | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 24 March 2006 01:10 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, thank goodness this convert didn't do something really crazy, like draw an offensive cartoon. Then he'd be in real trouble...
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 24 March 2006 01:16 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
To me, the more basic problem facing a number of cultures around the world - not just Muslim ones, either - is how severely deformed and derailed they have become in response to Western imperialism of the last three (at least) centuries.

Oh, com'on, Skdadl...


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 24 March 2006 01:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pablum:
Why do you insist on considering this mission in Afghanistan to be Harper's baby?

He inherited this quagmire from that silver-spooned little shit Martin.


Yes. Canadian government policy seems to have continuity beyond the mere changing of the guard. One simply has to consider Liberal flip-flops on everything from Free Trade to the GST to begin wondering if it is the case that policy is directed from parliment.

Sometimes it is almost as if elections don't matter, anymore.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
siren
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7470

posted 24 March 2006 01:50 AM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pablum:
Why do you insist on considering this mission in Afghanistan to be Harper's baby?

Some interesting observations there, pablum. Generally true, but not really germane to this thread.

Martin started the escalation or change in direction to offence, funded the troops and hired Hillier too --?

But it hardly makes any difference now -- now it's Harper's project. If he didn't like or agree with the mission, he has the power to withdraw the troops. He didn't do that, he went to Afghanistan and helpfully explained that canada's troops are there (in part) to promote Canadian values.

23 March 2003, Jeff House begins a thread on: Afghanistan: Death Sentence for Converting to Christianity.

It's important to not lose track of the history, to note that Chretien initiated the mission, for instance.

But it is Harper's project now.

Personally, I am not pleased with Layton's role in the defeat of the government, his campaigning or his weak stance on foreign affairs. But this isn't the thread for that.

Oh, and welcome to Rabble!


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 March 2006 08:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This can go in the Middle East forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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