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Author Topic: Canadian senator condemns U.S. policy
unionist
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posted 17 March 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure if I agree with Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette about the virtues of the seal hunt, but finally, someone speaks out against the greatest evil of our time:

quote:
A Liberal senator has replied to a family in Minnesota upset about Canada's seal hunt with a letter denouncing the United States for executing prisoners at home and killing people in Iraq. [...]

In her response, Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette said that what she finds horrible is "the daily massacre of innocent people in Iraq, the execution of prisoners – mainly blacks – in American prisons, the massive sale of handguns to Americans, the destabilization of the entire world by the American government's aggressive foreign policy, etc."[...]

In defending the seal hunt, she called it a centuries-old practice and part of the livelihood of coastal residents both native and white.

She invited the McLellans to come to Canada to see a humane society that lives in safety and respects the traditions of its native people.


In another thread, I said there was no opposition in Parliament. Obviously I was mistaken -- but who knew to look in the Red Chamber??

Full article on cbc.ca

[NOTE: When I wrote these posts, I was not aware of the Senator's opposition to same-sex marriage, as further detailed below. Rather than delete all these posts, I leave them as a caution (to myself) about the need to investigate thoroughly before issuing praise or blame.]

[ 18 March 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2006 02:20 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And here's a Radio Canada interview with the Senator - en français.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 March 2006 02:30 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm just curious though... when did the occupation of Iraq and the multitude of rights violations that entails beat out the seal hunt for "the greatest evil of our time"? Does Sir Paul know this??
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2006 02:37 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I'm just curious though... when did the occupation of Iraq and the multitude of rights violations that entails beat out the seal hunt for "the greatest evil of our time"? Does Sir Paul know this??

Paul McCartney speak out against war in Iraq


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
JPG
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posted 17 March 2006 02:44 PM      Profile for JPG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Paul's trying to beat out Bono as rock star humanitarian of the year.
From: Toronto/Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 17 March 2006 03:07 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As rhetoric go, this is effective at preaching to the converted (if not to the actual recipient), but logically, the letter is the fallacy of "tu quoque"--responding to an accusation with a cry of "You too!"

That's not a refutation.

[ 17 March 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2006 03:26 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
As rhetoric go, this is effective at preaching to the converted (if not to the actual recipient), but logically, the letter is the fallacy of "tu quoque"--responding to an accusation with a cry of "You too!"

That's not a refutation.


Very astute -- I agree with you!

Although I must say I have read neither the original letter nor the Senator's full reply, so there may be nuances we're not aware of.

My aim in starting this topic was simply to identify a member of Parliament that was being vocal on issues involving the U.S. and foreign policy and lamenting that there seemed to be none in the House of Commons.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Grape
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posted 17 March 2006 07:38 PM      Profile for Grape     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While Simon's absolutely bang-on about it not being a refutation, it certainly makes a poignant argument - clean up your own backyard before you go knocking on your neighbour's door.

I applaud the senator.


From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 17 March 2006 07:55 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Liberals were quick to distance themselves from the comments:
quote:
Opposition Leader Bill Graham issued a statement Friday saying those words "reflect her personal opinions and not those of the Liberal Party of Canada."
The party apparently does not share the senator's concern over the widespread availability of handguns south of the border, or the deaths of thousands of innocents in Iraq, or the USian use of the death penalty on a predominantly black prison population.

What's that you say? That's not what he meant? Well, what part of her words exactly is the Liberal Party distancing itself from?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 17 March 2006 08:06 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
The party apparently does not share the senator's concern over the widespread availability of handguns south of the border, or the deaths of thousands of innocents in Iraq, or the USian use of the death penalty on a predominantly black prison population.

If we want the american to STFU about pot laws in Canada--and we do--we have to afford their gun laws the same respect.

However, the execution of anyone, especially disproportionate numbers of blacks is a human rights issue we should be commenting on, and US war crimes in Iraq are likewise an issue of global concern.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:

If we want the american to STFU about pot laws in Canada--and we do--we have to afford their gun laws the same respect.

However, the execution of anyone, especially disproportionate numbers of blacks is a human rights issue we should be commenting on, and US war crimes in Iraq are likewise an issue of global concern.


Not just African Americans. The poor, the mentally handicapped. And human beings. Capital punishment is an abomination, and our country will not extradite a fugitive if they will be subject to it.

Oh, and possibly innocents Canadians, held in violation of international law, and executed over Canadian protest:

David Pratt protests plan to execute Stanley Faulder

quote:
Mr. David Pratt, Nepean - Carleton: Mr. Speaker, 17 days remain before Jasper, Alberta native Stanley Faulder is to be executed by lethal injection in Huntsville State Prison in Texas.

Stanley Faulder's case presents some very troubling issues. Although in custody since 1977, Canadian officials were only notified of Mr. Faulder's situation in 1991, an apparent breach of the Vienna convention on consular representation which meant that Faulder did not have access to proper legal representation.

No juror has ever heard testimony about the brain damage Mr. Faulder suffered in childhood that left his behaviour occasionally unpredictable. And no court has dealt with the fact that James Grigson, the forensic psychiatrist whose testimony was critical in convicting Stanley Faulder, was later expelled from the American Psychiatric Association for unethical and unscientific testimony in death penalty trials.

I urge my colleagues in the House and every Canadian interested in justice to write to Texas Governor George W. Bush and the Texas Board of Parole and Pardons seeking clemency for Stanley Faulder.


On June 19, 1999, after George W. Bush refused to intervene, Stanley Faulder was executed.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
BCseawalker
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posted 17 March 2006 09:52 PM      Profile for BCseawalker        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm glad that somebody in our government is speaking out. So glad, in fact, that I wrote the Senator an email in support.
From: Unspecified | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2006 10:10 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BCseawalker:
I'm glad that somebody in our government is speaking out. So glad, in fact, that I wrote the Senator an email in support.

Well done -- I've just sent a congratulatory email of my own. Her address is:

hervic@sen.parl.gc.ca

I used "Dear Mme Senator" -- gosh I hope that's proper protocol.

[Note to self: Unionist -- you've just written a supportive message to a Senator -- what next??]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 17 March 2006 10:25 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This event is a classic example of why a UNELECTED senate is so important. The freedom to speak out without fear of party sanctions which elected officials are always conscous of.

It is unfortunate that more senators are not willing to speak out in this manner about the misdeeds of our own political system. But i guess that is why political leaders get to make the appointment.

But if senate appointments were made by a popular referendum and only people that have shown this sort of political courage dominated the senate we might find the "house of sober second thought" we were promised by having a senate in the first plane.

[ 17 March 2006: Message edited by: otter ]


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 18 March 2006 12:36 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
This event is a classic example of why a UNELECTED senate is so important. The freedom to speak out without fear of party sanctions which elected officials are always conscous of.

Mme Hervieux-Payette is single-handedly changing my mind about the Senate.

All right... wait for it... here it is (you heard it here first):

Keep the Senate!
Abolish the Commons!


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 18 March 2006 01:18 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Before we all get too carried away with this Liberal senator...

She voted against the same-sex marriage bill.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 18 March 2006 01:45 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Before we all get too carried away with this Liberal senator...

She voted against the same-sex marriage bill.


Oh my God (figuratively speaking). I should have known it was too good to be true. I'm checking Google, and she is quite militant on this issue. For example:

quote:
Senator Celine Hervieux-Payette and Member of Parliament Dan McTeague suggested that the hot potato of SSM be transferred from Parliament to the general public by having a national referendum on the issue. Prime Minister Chrétien squashed that suggestion by stating that minority rights guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms are not subject to the tyranny of the majority. He said: "I'm not keen on referendums. To have a referendum to decide the fate of a minority -- its a problem. It's why we have constitutions to protect the minority. That's why we have charters of rights. If it is always the majority vote, who will defend the minorities?"

And it gets worse:

quote:
Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette opposes C-38. She concluded from an examination of various dictionaries: "...that marriage is the union of a man and a woman and almost always for the purpose of procreation....I maintain that this bill is more a political action than a legal exercise confirming the equality rights of same sex couples" She quoted Dr. Margaret Somerville, a McGill University specialist in ethics. She said: "When restricted to one man and one woman, marriage establishes as the norm the rights of children to a biological father and mother who will raise them ...Because same-sex marriage is not based on procreation, it deprives all children of such rights, not just the children of same-sex couples. Bill C-38 expressly recognizes and applies this change by redefining the parental condition in general, changing it from the natural, or biological, parental condition to the legal parental condition. This is the effect of Bill C-38....The rights of children must include:

1. The right to be conceived with a natural biological heritage — that is to say unmodified biological origins — and to be conceived with natural sperm from an identified man and a natural ovum from an identified woman; and
2. The right to know the identity of their biological parents."

Senator Hervieux-Payette concluded: "I cannot agree to vote in favor of Bill C-38 as it stands. It would run counter to my profound convictions on my role as a senator, which is to protect Canadian institutions and the most vulnerable of Canadians, our children."


Source: religiousintolerance.org

It's bad. I apologize for not doing this background check before singing her praises.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 18 March 2006 04:07 AM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, it's not unheard of for people to have humane views on some issues and inhumane views on others. I guess the upside of this example is that it reminds us that not all social conservatives (insert your own pithier terms if you prefer) are uniformly supportive of all right-wing policies, and are capable of recognizing the human suffering caused by at least some of those policies, even if they maintain massive blind spots on other equally important matters.

On the other hand, Sen. Hervieux-Payette is marshalling this critique of American policies and society as a defence of the seal hunt. I happen to support the seal hunt for reasons similar to the ones she states, but as Simon puts it above, this is a "tu quoque" argument -- "you can't say what we do is bad when your government is doing stuff that's so much worse." And she's not responding to a letter from Donald Rumsfeld or Charlton Heston, but to a letter from a family in Minnesota. It's quite possible that the letter-writers might agree with the senator's criticism of their country, and be activists on the home front as well as internationally.


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 March 2006 07:01 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, she's in good compamy with The Doll-Stomper, who voted against C-38 as well.

[ 18 March 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 March 2006 07:26 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In case anyone is wondering, it is illegal to club Senators on the head, and skin them.

.....I looked it up.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 18 March 2006 07:36 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
In case anyone is wondering, it is illegal to club Senators on the head, and skin them.

How about if you skin them first, then club them?


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 March 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, in a system where they function as the last line of deffence against democracy, you'd think there would be such lattitude, but apparently not.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 18 March 2006 08:17 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder is this Liberal senator was so scathing when her own party decided to involve Canada in the Afghan and Haitian debacles?

Liberal anti-Americanism is a little like the guy who drives the getaway car and lectures the rest of the gang about what a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs they are for gunning down the bank teller back there.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 18 March 2006 08:32 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This event is a classic example of why a UNELECTED senate is so important. The freedom to speak out without fear of party sanctions which elected officials are always conscous of.

Yeah, I know I'm looking forward to the time 20 years from now when we'll have Harper-appointed senators spouting off antediluvian nonsense that not even their own party will be supporting anymore.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 March 2006 08:39 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course she wasn't.

The things one has to do to become a Senator means that their personal ship has long ago sailed on things like integrity, character etc.

Next time you see a street walker, as her if she'd like to become a Senator.

She'll slap you in the face.

And deservedly so.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brett Mann
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posted 18 March 2006 12:23 PM      Profile for Brett Mann        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ever since the Senate published its report on the use of illegal drugs, and called for the full legalization of cannabis, I have thought that it may be a very good thing for a democracy to have an unelected senior body of government with limited powers which can speak out on controversial issues freely. Especially when so many elected politicians are so chicken-shit scared of offending any voter anywhere.
From: Prince Edward County ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 18 March 2006 01:29 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While I happen to agree with the Senator on the seal hunt and strongly disagree with her on equal marriage, neither is relevant to her letter to the Minnesota family.

Instead of taking advantage of the opportunity to address their legitimate concerns about the seal hunt, the letter was rude and insulting. For all she knows, the McLellan family opposes both the Iraq war and the death penalty. Does this family bear some sort of collective guilt about these unrelated matters just by virtue of being US citizens?

The Senator should apologize.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 18 March 2006 08:47 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As a matter of fact, the kind of liberal Americans who are most likely to be susceptible to Paul McCartney-type propaganda against the seal hunt are also the kind of Americans most likely to be against the Iraq war, capital punishment, in favour of gun control, etc.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 18 March 2006 08:53 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How sad, her reponse has nothing to do with the inhumane seal hunt.
From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 18 March 2006 11:55 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
As a matter of fact, the kind of liberal Americans who are most likely to be susceptible to Paul McCartney-type propaganda against the seal hunt are also the kind of Americans most likely to be against the Iraq war, capital punishment, in favour of gun control, etc.

You expect nuanced thought processing from the average American liberal? That would entail actually researching the history of the seal hunt and looking at it objectively from the perspective of the participants. That's hard work! Please confine these discussion to emotional sound bites that my average American counterpart can understand.

Thank you.

PS: Even though she was on the wrong side of C-38, I applaud the Senator on her response.

Next month I plan on spending money in Toronto. It has nothing to do with the seal hunt issue, however.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 19 March 2006 01:07 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seeking political asylum?
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 19 March 2006 01:59 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How sad, her reponse has nothing to do with the inhumane seal hunt.

Actually, that's the one thing I agree with the senator on. People who lecture other countries about the mistreatment of animals deserve to have their own nations HUMAN rights violations tossed back in their faces.

It's just that in this case, I don't think a Liberal Party Of Canada politician is in the best position to be throiwng stones on the subject of American destabilization of the world. Had she confined her critique to capital punishment, which Canada does not practice, I might be less inclined to regard her as a hypocrite.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 19 March 2006 02:51 AM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by babblerwannabe:
How sad, her reponse has nothing to do with the inhumane seal hunt.

Well, according to the article, she certainly did address the hunt.

quote:
In defending the seal hunt, she called it a centuries-old practice and part of the livelihood of coastal residents both native and white.

She invited the McLellans to come to Canada to see a humane society that lives in safety and respects the traditions of its native people.


She just went above and beyond. It is a sad day for Canada when a senator speaking out for her/our country is immediately maligned for being anti-american. That's crap. She is defending us.

BTW -- how did this letter exchange become public?


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 19 March 2006 03:17 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WTF is wrong with being anti-american? The American people are having a bout of insanity, and the US administration is evil. Being anti these things is entirely appropriate.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 19 March 2006 05:37 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
WTF is wrong with being anti-american? The American people are having a bout of insanity, and the US administration is evil. Being anti these things is entirely appropriate.

Again, where was this tough-talking Liberal senator when Chretien and Martin were plunging Canada head first into the insanity?

If you're gonna be against something, it seems to me that the most important duty you have is to fight against your own involvement in it. If you aren't prepared to speak out when your own political party supports an imperialistic war, then I don't see what right you have to lecture people in other countires about their leaders doing the same thing, especially when you don't even know if those people support their leaders or not.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 19 March 2006 09:50 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Seeking political asylum?

I haven't been threatened here. . . yet.

Nah, its a podcast convention sponsored by our own Wayne McPhail of rabble radio.

I'm going the other route - federal skilled worker.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 19 March 2006 08:21 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is unfortunate this senate is already full of political appointees. It would be well worth keeping the senate if the citizenry had the final say in who gets to be a senator. Certainly there would be a lot more entertainment coming from the place.

This senator does bring one very important point to the fore though. Outspoken people can have opinions we like, as well as ones we don't like.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged

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