babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » national news   » Pickton trial. Who does the publication ban serve?

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Pickton trial. Who does the publication ban serve?
skeptikool
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11389

posted 30 January 2006 01:52 PM      Profile for skeptikool        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While it is agreed that the media should not conduct the trials of those before the court, it is fair to ask just who publication bans serve.

I will not mention the case but I believe that an obscenity, almost as great as the crime in question, is occurring with the legal exploitation of the whole proceedings around the affair.


From: Delta BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
JKR
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7904

posted 31 January 2006 01:40 AM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ten years ago many people here in Vancouver were saying that a serial killer was killing prostitutes in the Downtown Eastside - mostly Native women. The VPD said that these women were probably just runaways and were most likely in other cities such as Toronto, Calgary, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc.... Many people didn't believe the VPD. A poster of dozens of women was then made and distributed all around Vancouver.

As it turns out the VPD was completely wrong. While the VPD downplayed the possibility of there being a serial killer, women were being killed. City Hall wouldn't even support people who were trying to get to the bottom of all these murders.

So now a decade later the VPD and the City of Vancouver have a lot of explaining to do. The snail paced of the Pickton trial is stting back the day of reckoning for the City of Vancouver.

Why was the murder of dozens of women, mostly Native women, downplayed?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
skeptikool
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11389

posted 31 January 2006 12:37 PM      Profile for skeptikool        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I will not say it was so in this case, but a bureaucracy, merely by sitting on its hands, may achieve greater funding, even as it contrives work for itself.

Justice as entertainment? A disgusting thought as this "trial of the century" - so-termed in today's press, proceeds, and as the B.C. government (for a fee)sets up an office building for news outlets from around N. America.

What a let-down for the "business" it would have been if Pickton had pleaded guilty.


From: Delta BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8045

posted 31 January 2006 12:51 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some months ago the VPD requested that anybody who might have bought "pork" from Picton, and still had some of it, contact the police so they could test the meat DNA.

With the spectre of cannibalism released, you can just about imagine the horror and the sudden clumsy cover-up on the part of the police.

Perhaps the publication ban is because of the very real possibility the murdered women were packaged into roasts, chops, and sausage and sold with more traditional "farm gate" produce, such as pork.

The relatives of the missing women have been asked not to attend the trial. I find this even more disturbing than the way the media is being muzzled.

I guess someone will make a movie, as has been done with the Bernardo-Homulka horror.

Will we ever get an explanation about the dropped charges? A woman got away from whatever was going on, she was badly injured, made it to a neighbours' place, police were called, and Picton was charged... but even though the woman was willing to testify, those charges were dropped and the madness continued for another couple of years... will we learn how many women were slaughtered in the period between the time the charges were dropped and Willy Picton was finally arrested?

Somehow, I doubt we will ever get even a fraction of the story.


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 31 January 2006 12:55 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not guilty? Did the pigs do it of their own volition? Is he going to use the Animal Farm defence?

*sigh*

I suppose if Kenny-boy can plead not guilty, then Pickton can too. Even the guilty-as-sin are entitled to a defence.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Heavy Sharper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11809

posted 31 January 2006 01:13 PM      Profile for Heavy Sharper        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The policing system is bullshit:

The police force where I live (It's not really Calgary. ;-)) are bitching for more money for community outreach and youth programs and stuff, and yet they just busted somebody for cannabis possession and ran an operation against small pubs with VLT machines...

I mean, they have the resources to go after victimless crimes like that and yet they claim to need more money?

Complete bullshit.


From: Calgary | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
UrsaMinor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5047

posted 31 January 2006 01:19 PM      Profile for UrsaMinor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hasn't there been some questions about a link between Pckton and the Hells Angels? It is well known that pigs are one of the best ways to get rid of a body. If there is a connection, I wonder how many pigs farms across Canada are owned by Hell Angels associates?
From: Canada | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8953

posted 31 January 2006 03:04 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by UrsaMinor:
Hasn't there been some questions about a link between Pckton and the Hells Angels? It is well known that pigs are one of the best ways to get rid of a body. If there is a connection, I wonder how many pigs farms across Canada are owned by Hell Angels associates?

Hmmm, I wonder what the new council of pork producers slogan for the public might be if that scenario turned out to be even minutely true. "Canadian pork now contains 35% stoolie."

Seriously that would effectively kill the entire pork producing industry in Canada, while simutaneously probably creating enough public outrage to get the government(especially a conservative one) to outlaw biker gangs.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 31 January 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is no publication ban on the trial itself. Trials are public, and anyone can go and sit in on them, and can report what they have heard.

Evidence was taken months ago during a preliminary inquiry, and that, of course, cannot be reported on, because jurors have to base their decision on what they hear in court, not mis-reporting of evidence taken months ago.

Further, there may be a publication ban on evidence which is ruled inadmissible. For example, let us say that Defendant X made a confession, but that the judge decides it was beaten out of him, or obtained in some other illegal manner. It would make no sense to allow the jury to know of the inadmissible confession, because there would be no point in refusing to admit into evidence what jurors find out that same night on CNN.

After the jury goes into its deliberations, even inadmissible evidence can be reported, because hte jury is sequestered and (supposedly) cannot find out what is said in the media.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 31 January 2006 03:12 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
After the jury goes into its deliberations, even inadmissible evidence can be reported, because hte jury is sequestered and (supposedly) cannot find out what is said in the media.

Juries are sequestered in Canadian trials -- or at least Canadian murder trials? I thought that practice had been dropped altogether.

According to this, it's hardly ever done anymore even in the US.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
AWd
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11919

posted 31 January 2006 03:23 PM      Profile for AWd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by anne cameron:
Some months ago the VPD requested that anybody who might have bought "pork" from Picton, and still had some of it, contact the police so they could test the meat DNA.

With the spectre of cannibalism released, you can just about imagine the horror and the sudden clumsy cover-up on the part of the police.

Perhaps the publication ban is because of the very real possibility the murdered women were packaged into roasts, chops, and sausage and sold with more traditional "farm gate" produce, such as pork.

The relatives of the missing women have been asked not to attend the trial. I find this even more disturbing than the way the media is being muzzled.

I guess someone will make a movie, as has been done with the Bernardo-Homulka horror.

Will we ever get an explanation about the dropped charges? A woman got away from whatever was going on, she was badly injured, made it to a neighbours' place, police were called, and Picton was charged... but even though the woman was willing to testify, those charges were dropped and the madness continued for another couple of years... will we learn how many women were slaughtered in the period between the time the charges were dropped and Willy Picton was finally arrested?

Somehow, I doubt we will ever get even a fraction of the story.


We'll get the story...as long as people keep asking the questions. Canadian journalists are slowly becoming weak and fearful when it comes to breaking news. Their editors are giving them carbon copies of every other editor's itinerary. The publication ban should not have an effect on that particular story you are talking about, one I did not know until you mentioned it. Even if it does, once the ban is over a story like that one could lead to an inquiry, and possibly a lawsuit against the VPD.


From: Regina | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 31 January 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 'lance:

Juries are sequestered in Canadian trials -- or at least Canadian murder trials? I thought that practice had been dropped altogether.
[/URL]


I sat an a jury for a 1st degree murder trial and we were sequested during the deliberation phase only. The judge instructed us not to listen/watch/read any media during the entire, nor were we to discuss the case with anyone.


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 31 January 2006 03:44 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks. Obviously I was misinformed.

Could jeff (or any legal beagle) comment on how common this is? And would it be likely in the Pickton case?

[ 31 January 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 03:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by anne cameron:

I guess someone will make a movie, as has been done with the Bernardo-Homulka horror.

Will we ever get an explanation about the dropped charges? A woman got away from whatever was going on, she was badly injured, made it to a neighbours' place, police were called, and Picton was charged... but even though the woman was willing to testify, those charges were dropped and the madness continued for another couple of years... will we learn how many women were slaughtered in the period between the time the charges were dropped and Willy Picton was finally arrested?

Somehow, I doubt we will ever get even a fraction of the story.


I agree. I lived in Vancouver in the early 90's and word on the street was that their was a serial killer picking up prostitutes, but it seemed as if the police were not that interested. Not damning in itself, but later revelations that part of the farm (Piggies Palace) was an occastional use party pad for the Hells Angels, makes the whole thing come off with a bad odour, given the huge influence the HA have in Vancouver, especially in prostitution.

It seems completely likely to me, even if the HA had nothing to do with the actual crimes, that Pickton may have been able to leverage his connections to have some not so honest cops tacitly chill out the investigation.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 31 January 2006 04:26 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Could jeff (or any legal beagle) comment on how common this is?

In Toronto, the jury is never sequestered until all the evidence has been admitted, the lawyers have made their arguments, and the judge has charged the jury on the law.

Then they retire, sequestered, to consider their verdict.

They do this even when the case is far from newsworthy, and the chance that the papers will pick it up are quite small.

In newsworthy cases, the papers here wait until the jury is sequestered, and then publish all the dirt that was excluded by the trial judge, because the jury supposedly won't find out.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skeptikool
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11389

posted 31 January 2006 04:31 PM      Profile for skeptikool        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There have undoubtedly been those that, from the start, have brushed off these killings and/or disappearances as a to-be-expected occupational hazard of sex workers. One hopes that such desultory acceptance was not infectious to the extent of worsening this horrendous crime.

It is noted that the pig farm involved is not in Vancouver. Whether this may have raised "turf" problems between different departments, or strengthened the investigation, is not known.

[ 31 January 2006: Message edited by: skeptikool ]


From: Delta BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 31 January 2006 04:31 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
Not guilty? Did the pigs do it of their own volition? Is he going to use the Animal Farm defence?

*sigh*

I suppose if Kenny-boy can plead not guilty, then Pickton can too. Even the guilty-as-sin are entitled to a defence.


The judge might not accept a guilty plea. I remember years ago a case where someone pled guilty to a murder, and the judge refused to allow it. The reasoning is that in very serious crimes, it is most important for the prosecution to make their case.

I don't think anyone believes Robert Pickton is innocent, and I doubt he'll ever see the light of day again.

At the same time, it is in the interest of the people to see exactly how this crime came about, and a simple plea of guilty would not allow for that.

So, as awful as it is, we'll just have to go through the exercise, and hope the trial will provide us information that can be used in the future to help prevent other such crimes.

Of course the media will use the trial to shore up their bottom lines - profit has no morals - but in the meantime, we may actually hear evidence that exposes the VPD non-action, and pushes them towards being a more responsible organization.

Or at least let us hope that happens, cause we're in it now, one way or the other.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 04:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And then of course there is the possibility, not fot discussed, that Picton did not do it alone. Something which seems quite likely given the magnitude of the crimes entailed.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2999

posted 31 January 2006 05:14 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
And then of course there is the possibility, not fot discussed, that Picton did not do it alone. Something which seems quite likely given the magnitude of the crimes entailed.

This was discussed last night on the news. 80 officers are involved in an ongoing investigation.

From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 01 February 2006 12:09 AM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
IIRC he had a brother that lived with him on the farm that seem to be very low key since the shit hit the fan....maybe he is a witness for the prosecution.

I also heard last night that there was 750,000 pages of disclosure for the lawyers to pour over.....this is gonna take for ever and cost millions


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
$1000 Wedding
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11486

posted 01 February 2006 01:31 AM      Profile for $1000 Wedding        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are numerous elements to this case that reek of a conspiracy that no one wants to open. Who is paying for Picton's defense team? It'll cost millions- more than a pig farmer could afford. Someone doesn't want him to get upset and roll over. And Picton doesn't seem to fit the typical profile of a serial killer. Isn't he described as somewhat slow minded, unattractive? Most serial killers are smooth, reasonably charming guys who can regularly attract prostitutes into their car and home. After all, it's unlikely he killed them on the street and hauled them to his farm. If Picton is only the body disposal manager, then why are these women being brought to the farm and killed? It doesn't make sense as a one man crime.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
BlawBlaw
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11570

posted 01 February 2006 02:36 AM      Profile for BlawBlaw     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The publication ban is in place because the jury trial has not begun yet and the lawyers and judge are in a process of determining what evidence is legally admissible to the jury when one is finally selected. Any publication of evidence that is found to be inadmissible would taint the jury.

The trial itself - which will not be for a few months - will only have a limited blackout in place.

After the trial, you can be sure there will the the tabloid news stories of "What the Jury Didn't Hear!!!"

And his farm was assessed at, I heard, $8.4 million. I don't know how much equity he has (ie, how big his mortgage has) but the defense lawyers took another mortgage out.

Assuming he is found guilty, rumour has it that the judge will not order compensation to the families, and in the subsequent civil trial(s) the families of the victims might get $100k each, subject to 33% lawyer fees assuming that there is anything left at all.


From: British Columbia | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 01 February 2006 06:48 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
And then of course there is the possibility, not fot discussed, that Picton did not do it alone. Something which seems quite likely given the magnitude of the crimes entailed.

Yeah...I don't know. His brother was around for all the time it was going on, and yet has not been charged. Apparently he's convinced the prosecution he had no part in it.

Yet he was there through it all, so figure that one out.

And of course, no one else has been charged, so who knows what the hell happened there.

Pickton had parties, and I suspect he just payed hookers to stay over after the party, and then did away with them. This did go on for a number of years, so it wouldn't be that difficult to kill 5 or 6 women a year for any number of years. Expecially with no one looking for the victims.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 01 February 2006 08:34 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

The judge might not accept a guilty plea. I remember years ago a case where someone pled guilty to a murder, and the judge refused to allow it. The reasoning is that in very serious crimes, it is most important for the prosecution to make their case.

I don't think anyone believes Robert Pickton is innocent, and I doubt he'll ever see the light of day again.

At the same time, it is in the interest of the people to see exactly how this crime came about, and a simple plea of guilty would not allow for that.

So, as awful as it is, we'll just have to go through the exercise, and hope the trial will provide us information that can be used in the future to help prevent other such crimes.

Of course the media will use the trial to shore up their bottom lines - profit has no morals - but in the meantime, we may actually hear evidence that exposes the VPD non-action, and pushes them towards being a more responsible organization.

Or at least let us hope that happens, cause we're in it now, one way or the other.


Would a detailed confession not serve the same purpose?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 01 February 2006 08:49 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:
Yeah...I don't know. His brother was around for all the time it was going on, and yet has not been charged. Apparently he's convinced the prosecution he had no part in it.

Yet he was there through it all, so figure that one out.


I don't know enough about the circumstances of the case to know if this is a reasonable idea or not, but if the women at least came their voluntarily, it seems possible his brother would want to make himself scarce while he had a prostitute over.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8045

posted 01 February 2006 10:54 AM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Willy wasn't sole owner of the place. It was a family owned farm so his siblings will get their share of the sale price (if, indeed, anyone wants to buy the place). As for who is paying for his defence..why, the same generous folk who paid for the Air India investigation and trial... we , the ever generous tax payers...

I differ with the writer who said Willy didn't fit the profile , that most serial killers are slick, charming, etc. Not true, but H'wood would have us believe it because it makes for better film optics...nothing smooth or sophisticated in the Green River killer...I suspect Bundy was one of the very few who might have been described as a smooth operator... and why would someone who is availing himself of hookers have to have craphouse slicks, it isn't the personality or charm the sex worker is interested in, it's just the money...

The questions abound and we probably will never get any lucid answers, the police have too much to answer for, they didn't seem to care that so many women were disappearing, and the question which most disturbs me is WHY those charges were dropped and no in-depth investigation initiated. The woman was willing to cooperate, you'd think they'd have been all over that pig farm...


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 01 February 2006 11:27 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by anne cameron:
Willy wasn't sole owner of the place. It was a family owned farm so his siblings will get their share of the sale price (if, indeed, anyone wants to buy the place).

CBC Radio news here the other day reported that the value of the land has been assessed at $9 million, up from $6 million last year or the year before. I expect, whenever it's parcelled off and sold, it'll go for much more than that.

quote:
I differ with the writer who said Willy didn't fit the profile , that most serial killers are slick, charming, etc. Not true, but H'wood would have us believe it because it makes for better film optics...nothing smooth or sophisticated in the Green River killer...I suspect Bundy was one of the very few who might have been described as a smooth operator...

Yes; for me the last word on serial killers came out a few years ago, when I heard a criminologist who'd interviewed several talk about them. (This was shortly after the release of Silence of the Lambs). He said that the idea of the "evil genius" was almost entirely mythical, and described serial killers as mostly just "sordid little people."


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2999

posted 01 February 2006 12:22 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am still not convinced that the police are guilty of anything more than incompetence and systemic biases. Not trying to diminish their culpability whatsoever as they carry a heavy responsibility any way you look at it.

However, one has still to wonder about others being involved. Just thinking that the Hell's Angels may have been involved brings up theories that are too grotesque to even write down.

[ 01 February 2006: Message edited by: Pogo ]


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
$1000 Wedding
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11486

posted 01 February 2006 10:56 PM      Profile for $1000 Wedding        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry if I sounded too glib in characterizing, stereotyping, profiling serial killers. I meant to say even if prostititutes are working for money they won't get in a car with someone if he looks like Quasimodo or the "Gimp". Not that many women over a period of time. Plus, how does a guy like that run a pig farm worth $8 mio or so with corpses in the feed without anyone knowing?

The police. Don't forget that police in Milwaukee had a chance to catch Dalmer when a drugged out, naked victim was running about yelling incoherently. But, they wrote it off to a "gay fight" and left. Numerous victims later they figured out they made a big stereotyping mistake. Same thing with Picton. No cop bothered to care enough.

And the biker rumour? It may just be a rumour, but rumours start for a kernel of a reason. Perhaps the lead is too weak for the authorities to pursue so they'll prosecute who is prosecutable. Maybe Picton will speak out later when his defence weakens and he sees he can't win a not guilty plea. One thing is for sure, this trial will go on for years and years.

And in the meantime, what's being down about the Downtown Eastside? A permanent underclass, subculture of people are unprotected and disenfranchised from society. It's become a human junk heap where we dump and forget about those who have fallen through our mainstream cracks. Whatever their reasons for their plight or condition they deserve law enforcement protection and decency.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca