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Author Topic: Trophy video shows 'contractors' shooting up Iraqis
Transplant
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posted 27 November 2005 08:46 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'Trophy' video exposes private security contractors shooting up Iraqi drivers

The Telegraph - A "trophy" video appearing to show security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians has sparked two investigations after it was posted on the internet, the Sunday Telegraph can reveal.

The video has sparked concern that private security companies, which are not subject to any form of regulation either in Britain or in Iraq, could be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent Iraqis.

The video, which first appeared on a website that has been linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars. All of the shooting incidents apparently took place on "route Irish", a road that links the airport to Baghdad.

The road has acquired the dubious distinction of being the most dangerous in the world because of the number of suicide attacks and ambushes carried out by insurgents against coalition troops. In one four-month period earlier this year it was the scene of 150 attacks....


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 27 November 2005 09:06 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Could we, at least on babble, agree to drop the Orwellian Pentagon-speak and call these "contractors" what they ARE? As in mercenaries?
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alexander
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posted 28 November 2005 06:43 AM      Profile for Alexander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Windows Media Player video:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Aegis-PSD.wmv

Realplayer video:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Aegis-PSD.mov

Who the fuck here thinks that Canada should be anything like the u.s. ?

FUCK the u.s.a., they are FUCKING EVIL !


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 28 November 2005 07:19 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This notion of taking a 'trophy video' of one's misdeeds is just bizarre to me, whether it's in Iraq, a London park, or a hazing picnic.

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 28 November 2005 08:59 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geez...
This really turned my stomach around!
What has this world come to, when people assigned to serve and protect go around and kill the same people they vowed to protect?!

From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 28 November 2005 09:11 AM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander:
FUCK the u.s.a., they are FUCKING EVIL !
Well, these are private citizens, and from reading the article, probably British.

Regardless of what one thinks of the war, this reliance on private contractors has been probably the worst screw-up imaginable. Who really knows what kind of people they're getting in there, and with little to no oversight. Stuff like this just suggests, once again, that they had no decent plan for the occupation.


From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 28 November 2005 09:22 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_Jay:
Well, these are private citizens, and from reading the article, probably British.

Maybe they learned their techniques in the other area British contracters are used: running "detention centres" for asylum seekers.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 28 November 2005 09:27 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"Contractors" build houses. These dirtbags are thugs for hire. Mercenaries. I shed no tears when I hear that one has been rubbed out.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 November 2005 09:31 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought of that thread on the Marines' hazing picnic right away too, Tape.

I wonder how many of these mercenaries came out of "elite" Marine units like that one?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 28 November 2005 02:24 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are not a few Canadians amongst the mercenaries in Iraq.
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 28 November 2005 03:13 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder if that stupid elvis song was dubbed in after or it was being played in the vehicle. Nothing like commiting atrocities whilst a rockin tune sets the mood.

Robert Fisk was right, all things considered, muslims around the world are showing remarkable restraint with us.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 November 2005 03:22 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gotta keep those bad vibrations happening. Billions of dollars in taxpayer handouts are at stake. They're scared to death of peace.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 28 November 2005 03:52 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
On March 4 two Somalis were shot by soldiers on patrol at the compound. One was wounded, the other was shot dead with two or three bullets. An Army surgeon, Dr. Barry Armstrong, revealed that the man had lived for a few minutes, then was shot "execution-style in the head."

Then, 12 days later, there was another awful incident. A 16-year-old, Shidane Arone, was tortured and murdered on the base. One of the soldiers involved took "trophy" pictures of the torture.


Apparently this sort of behaviour is a common part of being a soldier, which doesn't surprise me.

In order to get someone to kill someone else - or be prepared to kill someone else - the 'enemy' has to be dehumanized.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 28 November 2005 04:20 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:

There are not a few Canadians amongst the mercenaries in Iraq.


So??? That just means they're Canadian scumbags...

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 28 November 2005 05:47 PM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:
Apparently this sort of behaviour is a common part of being a soldier, which doesn't surprise me.
That's an extremely unfair (and unfounded) statement.

Yeah, several Canadian soldiers in Somalia were fuck-ups, these contractors (not American soldiers by the way) are also fucks, and so are a number of those in U.S. and British uniforms. That does not, however, a generalisation make.


From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 28 November 2005 06:09 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's an extremely unfair (and unfounded) statement.

I am not so sure. During the Second World War, and in Vietnam, too, American soldiers collected the ears of those they had killed in battle.

During the present war in Iraq, all sorts of horrid things are happening, including ritual posing of soldiers with decomposing Iraqi bodies.

I think that it is quite mythical that soldiers, overall, behave with honour on the battlefront. Some do, but many, many, descend below a level that we others are comfortable with.

We prefer not to know.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 28 November 2005 06:12 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

Apparently this sort of behaviour is a common part of being a soldier, which doesn't surprise me.

In order to get someone to kill someone else - or be prepared to kill someone else - the 'enemy' has to be dehumanized.


As you choose an incident involving members of the CF (Airborne to be exact), I can only assume that you beleive this as being true of today's CF... To this, I say the generalisation is absolutely false. This sort of behaviour is abhorent, and not the way we train. FULL STOP.

I am an instructor within the training system of the CF, have been for the past 10 years. I am also an infantry soldier. I do NOT train my soldiers to dehumanise the "enemy", as this is counter productive to the final endstate...

As to the question of the Somalia Affair. Please, go back and do some research on the subject. You will find that a unit that trained exclusively for war, was sent on a peacekeeping operation with exactly ZERO training in peacekeeping... This does not mitigate the crime that the few commited, however, if you choose to research the subject you will find that not everyone in the CF is a savage, not even everyone who was in the Airborne at the time was a savage.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 28 November 2005 06:13 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

I am not so sure. During the Second World War, and in Vietnam, too, American soldiers collected the ears of those they had killed in battle.

During the present war in Iraq, all sorts of horrid things are happening, including ritual posing of soldiers with decomposing Iraqi bodies.

I think that it is quite mythical that soldiers, overall, behave with honour on the battlefront. Some do, but many, many, descend below a level that we others are comfortable with.

We prefer not to know.


It most certainly is an unfair statement, as the person choose to reference the Somalis Affair, to which the inferance could be made that they beleive this is true of the CF... To which I say that it most definatly is NOT.

EDIT TO ADD: The fact is, that the MAJORITY of soldiers are honourable IMH and completely biased opinion. I make this statement on the basis that there are millions of soldiers on the planet, and yet we barely hear of hundreds of incidents (of course, I am talking about professional soldiers as opposed to militias). There is also context of the event to take into account (ie soldiers destroy a religious building, usually seen as a very bad thing, however, if said building was used for military operations, then it is no longer a religious building).

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


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jeff house
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posted 28 November 2005 09:38 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As Canadian soldiers become more involved in actual combat in Afghanistan, their standards of civility will decrease.

We will hear of 1% of the atrocities, if we are lucky.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 28 November 2005 10:16 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
As Canadian soldiers become more involved in actual combat in Afghanistan, their standards of civility will decrease.

We will hear of 1% of the atrocities, if we are lucky.


Your evidence of this is? We have been in limited combat since the beginning of the war on terror.

It seems that more then 1% of the idiocy of the Americans is being reported... Please do try to have a little more faith.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 29 November 2005 05:19 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_Jay:
Stuff like this just suggests, once again, that they had no decent plan for the occupation.

Well, actually they did have one--the State department had detailed plans, which were thrown out the window.
But in a way there was a plan, which paradoxically involved having as little careful planning as possible. The more I hear about Iraq, the more I think it sounds like an extreme version of the model for shock-privatization put into action in New Zealand and popularized among the right in worldwide conferences, speaking tours et cetera, as described in books like "Shooting the Hippo" by Canada's own Linda McQuaig.
The model for right-wing shock tactics in government involves always doing things as quickly as possible without studying them. The idea is that this gives the opposition little time to react; it also stops any problems with the plan from being spotted until it's too late. Since the real motivation is generally to benefit private interests rather than to govern well, any problems that study would spot are generally irrelevant to the real motivation. So in the case of Iraq, things were done with as little study or oversight as possible, because any such would have just forced Halliburton to do things like spend money on actual reconstruction instead of pocket it, or might have exposed some of the glaring reasons why giving business exclusively to American contractors was utterly counterproductive, or might have made it clear that opening Iraq up to foreign ownership and competition while it was flat on its back would be terrible for Iraq. All information that they really didn't care about, but if their real motivations were the publicly claimed ones they would be expected to care. So they busily did their best to avoid finding out, by not planning--by just putting a bare ideological schema in place without fitting it to local circumstances, because the real point was Halliburton et al's circumstances and making sure that nobody got a chance to study the proposed approach too closely.
In many ways, the whole schtick wasn't so different from the Harris government's approach in Ontario, say.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
outlandist
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posted 29 November 2005 09:11 AM      Profile for outlandist        Edit/Delete Post
Cry havoc and unleash the dogs of war.

Mr. Polson's argument is apt. The Bush administration ignored the advice of Centcom commander General Franks and his predecessor,General Zinnie regarding the troop strength required to overthrow Saddam.While the capacity of US forces to do the job was not in doubt,no effort was made to secure the country after hostilities,allowing insurgents free rein to resist.


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Merowe
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posted 29 November 2005 10:02 AM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This footage is utterly chilling.

It can probably be corroborated and cross-referenced; the exact locations could be determined, the video probably has date stamps or similar, such local records as exist could be checked and possible observers on the ground interviewed; redeeming circumstances explored, perhaps some of the vehicles had been earlier targetted deliberately as hostiles...

Then, regardless of the anarchic circumstances of this evil war, the actual protagonists should be done for murder, no?

Because that's what it is, plain and simple. Like so much of the bloody business in Iraq; its a criminal act as opposed to an act of war.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 29 November 2005 10:13 AM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eeeeech. I just watched it again. There's no blood and gore but that just somehow makes it even sicker.

I'm sure nothing will be done; the psychopaths responsible will dine out on their tales for years to come; get hired again and well paid in other mindless conflicts; business as usual.

Its a pity, though.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 November 2005 12:06 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

Your evidence of this is? We have been in limited combat since the beginning of the war on terror.

It seems that more then 1% of the idiocy of the Americans is being reported... Please do try to have a little more faith.


More faith? That's hardly a solution to anything. If anything we need less faith. Then there wouldn't be a "War on Terror" ®.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 29 November 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Crooks & Liars has more on this story.
From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 29 November 2005 12:20 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:
Crooks & Liars has more on this story.

Where?


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 29 November 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by thwap:
Where?

http://www.crooksandliars.com/

It was the lead item. Scroll don to:

Breaking: Tim Spicer stonewalling Civilian Iraq shootings inquiry?


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 29 November 2005 02:30 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which company were they working for when they murdered people?
From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 29 November 2005 05:58 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

As you choose an incident involving members of the CF (Airborne to be exact), I can only assume that you beleive this as being true of today's CF... To this, I say the generalisation is absolutely false. This sort of behaviour is abhorent, and not the way we train. FULL STOP.

I am an instructor within the training system of the CF, have been for the past 10 years. I am also an infantry soldier. I do NOT train my soldiers to dehumanise the "enemy", as this is counter productive to the final endstate...

As to the question of the Somalia Affair. Please, go back and do some research on the subject. You will find that a unit that trained exclusively for war, was sent on a peacekeeping operation with exactly ZERO training in peacekeeping... This does not mitigate the crime that the few commited, however, if you choose to research the subject you will find that not everyone in the CF is a savage, not even everyone who was in the Airborne at the time was a savage.


You train people to be prepared to kill others. FULL STOP.

Don't give me the standard whine about how wonderful soldiers are, their honour, and so on. It's all just a pile of crap handed out by those who are afraid to face what it is they really do.

The G8 nations spend 3/4's of the world's yearly expenditure on military. Why do you suppose that is? What do you think the military is for? The war on terror? Give me a break, it *is* the terror, against which the bulk of the world's population have little or no defence.

I'm am utterly sick of the justifications - heard over and over again - for the conduct of the military, our military, the US military, the UK military, the French military.

They exist to terrorize the world into submission, nothing else. Those who participate in that terror are criminals, nothing less.

If there is any justice in this universe, those militarty sycophants and apologists will spend a an eternity revisiting their past in utter agony.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 29 November 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally
posted by jeff house:
I think that it is quite mythical that soldiers, overall, behave with
honour on the battlefront. Some do, but many, many, descend below a
level that we others are comfortable with. We prefer not to know.

I'm sure that's true. When we train people to violate their normal behavior, and send them off with a mandate to do so, we shouldn't be surprised when they go over the edge.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 29 November 2005 07:09 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:
You train people to be prepared to kill others. FULL STOP...They exist to terrorize the world into submission, nothing else. Those who participate in that terror are criminals, nothing less.
Sorry, M. but my mother was in the military, my uncles, my father and many others in our family. A distant cousin teaches TaiChi and traditional Cree martial arts with traiditional weaponry. An old friend is a Lieutenant in the Canadian Armed forces, and teaches his soldiers in the art of mountain climbing and high ice maneuvers. These were and are wonderful, intelligent, sensitive and caring people.

In Cree society, the warrior is honoured for devotion and sacrifice for the good of the community. To reduce all military personell to such a simplistic stereotype is to deny the necessity to defend ones community at times from force. Your vision is narrow and blinkered. If you were trapped in a war zone during an invasion, you would be grateful for caring well trained and well equiped soldiers to aid you.


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 29 November 2005 08:50 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

You train people to be prepared to kill others. FULL STOP.

Don't give me the standard whine about how wonderful soldiers are, their honour, and so on. It's all just a pile of crap handed out by those who are afraid to face what it is they really do.

The G8 nations spend 3/4's of the world's yearly expenditure on military. Why do you suppose that is? What do you think the military is for? The war on terror? Give me a break, it *is* the terror, against which the bulk of the world's population have little or no defence.

I'm am utterly sick of the justifications - heard over and over again - for the conduct of the military, our military, the US military, the UK military, the French military.

They exist to terrorize the world into submission, nothing else. Those who participate in that terror are criminals, nothing less.

If there is any justice in this universe, those militarty sycophants and apologists will spend a an eternity revisiting their past in utter agony.


I do train people to kill others, yes. I could care less if this offends you. I train people to protect you (I know damned well how offensive that must sound to some here, and given your ill thought out response, I could care less).

The world is not a pretty or safe place, only a naive child would think it is.Greed runs rampant amongst mankind, and until we get rid of greed you will need police and soldiers.

Perhaps you are the type that is an absolute pacifist. If you would not raise a hand ever, to protect yourself, another or even a child, I will refrain from calling you a hyopocrit.

As to your bold faced ignorant, whiney, little statment that I can not face what it is I do and train for, you are sadly mistaken. I know very well what it is I train for. I train hard to fight, and I am damned good at what I do. I train hard to fight within the construct of Canadian and international laws. I train hard to fight and kill, and I do so visibly and loudly, so that other nations know that when we are on a peacekeeping mission, despite the fact that our nation does not deem it necessary to equip us properly, we will win any battle we enter.

Some would rather roll over and die in the name of "peace" (make that slavery). I would not.

EDIT TO ADD: I train hard as a deterance, a very effective deterance. When nations ask for peacekeepers, they ask for us first and fore most. We are respected for our ability to get things done with little resources, and have a proven track record for being professional and capable in combat as recently evidenced in Croatia, the Medak Pocket.

[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 29 November 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cougyr:

I'm sure that's true. When we train people to violate their normal behavior, and send them off with a mandate to do so, we shouldn't be surprised when they go over the edge.



Define normal behaviour... I pick up a newspaper, and it appears that normal behaviour involves violence. I watch tv and normal behaviour includes violence.

Now, as to who you are talking about... Training doctrines are very different from country to country. One thing we (as Canadians) do not do is dehumanise anyone. The reason for this is simple. He who is our enemy today, maybe our friend tomorrow.

My years of expereince in unifor, both on training exercises and peacekeeping operations have been contrary to what is being said here in this thread. Soldiers will risk their lives for people they do not know in countries far far away... I'm sure to you that is nothing more then a fairy tale... To me, it is reality.

Hollywood, and newspapers do not usually cover the Canadian military at all. When they do, it is done very poorly, and with the usual creative flair. Too often the only news we see in the media about the CF is when things go horribly wrong. In the case of crime, there are the usual bandits that claim this is the actions of the entire CF (disregarding common sense that if this was the case, mayhem would rule the day in Canada as we are over 60,000 strong).


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 29 November 2005 09:14 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Sorry, M. but my mother was in the military, my uncles, my father and many others in our family. A distant cousin teaches TaiChi and traditional Cree martial arts with traiditional weaponry. An old friend is a Lieutenant in the Canadian Armed forces, and teaches his soldiers in the art of mountain climbing and high ice maneuvers. These were and are wonderful, intelligent, sensitive and caring people.

In Cree society, the warrior is honoured for devotion and sacrifice for the good of the community. To reduce all military personell to such a simplistic stereotype is to deny the necessity to defend ones community at times from force. Your vision is narrow and blinkered. If you were trapped in a war zone during an invasion, you would be grateful for caring well trained and well equiped soldiers to aid you.



A very eloquent response. Is your Lt friend is teaching some of the things I am hungry to get invovled with. Of course, the mountain operations course is one of the most physically trying courses we have, but damned worth it for the view at the end of the climb.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
FourteenRivers
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posted 29 November 2005 09:27 PM      Profile for FourteenRivers        Edit/Delete Post
THat is some seriously sick sh*t...
From: Quebec | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bam359
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posted 30 November 2005 04:57 AM      Profile for Bam359     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I especially like the part where the hero bravely shoots at the oncoming car that then veers into the parked police car.

Disgusting.


From: Manitoba, Canada | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 30 November 2005 05:35 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Greed runs rampant amongst mankind, and until we get rid of greed you will need police and soldiers.

I don't hate the military, and I see the necessity of their existence. I even see a nobility in it, in my more romantic moods. But still, surely you can see that the police and the soldiers are often facilitating greed, not combatting it. The Iraq war is a clear case of such.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 November 2005 07:29 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

EDIT TO ADD: The fact is, that the MAJORITY of soldiers are honourable IMH and completely biased opinion. I make this statement on the basis that there are millions of soldiers on the planet, and yet we barely hear of hundreds of incidents (of course, I am talking about professional soldiers as opposed to militias). There is also context of the event to take into account (ie soldiers destroy a religious building, usually seen as a very bad thing, however, if said building was used for military operations, then it is no longer a religious building).

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


It seems an american soldier had similar ideas as you about honour, and also some concerns about the profit motive in action in Iraq.

He ded now.

quote:
So it was only natural that Westhusing acted when he learned of possible corruption by U.S. contractors in Iraq. A few weeks before he died, Westhusing received an anonymous complaint that a private security company he oversaw had cheated the U.S. government and committed human rights violations. Westhusing confronted the contractor and reported the concerns to superiors, who launched an investigation.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 30 November 2005 07:47 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As to your bold faced ignorant, whiney, little statment that I can not face what it is I do and train for, you are sadly mistaken. I know very well what it is I train for. I train hard to fight, and I am damned good at what I do. I train hard to fight within the construct of Canadian and international laws.

I train hard to fight and kill, and I do so visibly and loudly, so that other nations know that when we are on a peacekeeping mission, despite the fact that our nation does not deem it necessary to equip us properly, we will win any battle we enter.


This is the statement of someone who has lost touch with reality.

I remember a song so well

'Kill, kill, kill for peace
Kill a commie for Christ today'

Talk about Orwell, there it is, in it's perfect sublimity.

"I train to kill...so that...when we are on a peacekeeping mission...we will win any battle we enter."

You have accepted the lies whole hog, yet there is still a tiny voice which reminds you that it is hogwash, and so you must rationalize you behaviour by inventing excuses for what the military does.

Forget it. You will never be able to reconcile the mutually exclusive requirements of your duty as a human being with your duty as a part of a machine that uses terror to enforce the subjection of those who have no defence against it.

You have offered me the protection of your military machine...I don't want it, and never asked for it. And don't bother wasting your rationalizations on me. I was brought up by one of the great rationalizers of all time.

I've heard every excuse you can imagine, many times over.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 30 November 2005 07:49 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
It seems an american soldier had similar ideas as you about honour, and also some concerns about the profit motive in action in Iraq.

He died now.


Geez, dunno if it's my paranoid mind, filled with conspriracy theories, but I'm not 100% conviced he commited suicide...
The way they portray him in the article, he doesn't sound like someone who'd ever do such a thing.
Couldn't he has stumdbled onto something, which forced some people to seal his lips permanently...?
As I said, could be my paranoid mind, but then again, worse things happen every day....

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 November 2005 07:53 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Either way. It is pretty grim.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 November 2005 07:58 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
TThis sticks out:

quote:
The meeting broke up shortly before lunch. About 1 p.m., a USIS manager went looking for Westhusing because he was scheduled for a ride back to the Green Zone. After getting no answer, the manager returned about 15 minutes later. Another USIS employee peeked through a window. He saw Westhusing lying on the floor in a pool of blood.

The manager rushed into the trailer and tried to revive Westhusing. The manager told investigators that he picked up the pistol at Westhusing's feet and tossed it onto the bed.

"I knew people would show up," that manager said later in attempting to explain why he had handled the weapon. "With 30 years from military and law enforcement training, I did not want the weapon to get bumped and go off."



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 30 November 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

This is the statement of someone who has lost touch with reality.


So, you must be an absolute pacifist. My hat is off to you, as I can not stand idlely by while others are killed and maimed by bullies. It happens, this list of tragedies is endless.

You are right. If we as a nation put down our weapons and stop training for war, eventually there will be peace.

Of course there would only be one religion, or no religion. Most likely only be one colour of skin on the planet. And conversations like these would land all in jail.

Till you come to grips with human nature, you can never accept that there are root causes to war, and the guns and soldiers are just the symptoms. Till greed is eliminated, I am perfectly happy knowing that I can have a part in ensuring a peaceful and free tomorrow for myself and my kids.

...

Another thing, this thread is hijacked enough, know now that I will not back down. I have seen the wiorst that mankind can deliver and what is discribed in this news article that started this thread is actually very benign in comparision. Evil does exsist, denying it will not make your or mine exsistance any safer.

Having seen what I have seen, I am very comfortable wearing my uniform, and the fact that you are allowed to continue in blissfull ignorance reinforces my beleif that this is right.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 30 November 2005 05:57 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:

I don't hate the military, and I see the necessity of their existence. I even see a nobility in it, in my more romantic moods. But still, surely you can see that the police and the soldiers are often facilitating greed, not combatting it. The Iraq war is a clear case of such.


In some cases they are not only facilitating, they are taking part in the crime, yes.

Make no mistake, I am of the opinion that 90% of all human beings have a price of some sort (not always money or fame). As such, the majority of us are subject to greed. This includes soldiers. If it wasn't the case, there would probably be a lot less war on the planet, and we would all be complaining about the weather (which is an especially pleasent thought).

Hell, I bet, given time to study, I could modify a pacifist into commiting violence (I find that such a thought is repugnent... I make the statment to make a point).


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 30 November 2005 06:07 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]



Hmmm, "... and a devout Catholic...". Devout Catholics do not off themselves lightly, as it is one of those sins that you are not likely to be forgiven. Reading the article, I did not see anything there to indicate that he was suicidal (with soldiers, we sometimes get extremely friendly and helpful in the last couple of days, maybe true of others, only looked at it from a soldiers's point of view to date).

I do not trust the Bush administration on the issue of Iraq. I do not trust Haliburton which is reaping billions of dollars in profit while the US goes trillions of dollars into debt. Most of all, I do not trust civilian contractors, especially security contractors, hired by the military. Contractors are generally motivated by money and little else.

I have little faith that the truth will come out on this case. I sincerely hope that the honourable Col is at peace now, and that his loved ones will eventually find peace, if not the answers they need.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 November 2005 07:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suicide or no, it doesn't really make a difference. In the first case, suicide, he seems to have been driven to it through his loss of belief and honour, or he was murdered. Neither speaks well of the situation there in regard to the mercenary units hired by the US and their proxies.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 30 November 2005 07:32 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy thread drift, Batman!

Dudes, watch the video.

In the face of such material, I don't see much point in equivocating. Sure, maybe you can have a nice clean war and do good. Iraq/2005 isn't that war; it's just like all the others, all those other sick little buckets of evil our southern neighbour cooked up out of its own neuroses. (and hey, we're no angels.)

I was too young to register Vietnam; I remember Reagan and El Salvador, the Contras...then it was Grenada; then the Russians went into Afghanistan...it never fucking ends.

And now its Iraq. And a bunch of 'private contractors' relaxing by unloading automatic weapons into whatever vehicles happen to be behind them. It's all just good fun, really. A blast! You should'a bin there!

The thing about 'war', any war, is that, once the social fabric has been sufficiently torn asunder, these sorts of incidents will INEVITABLY proliferate. Young men with weapons in relatively lawless states; a recipe for stupid with unspeakable consequences.

The solution is simple: avoid war at all costs. That includes not putting your resources into preparing for war - nicely protected under terms like 'defence' or self defence, etc.

Be like Costa Rica. Noones invaded them lately.

Just don't go there. Don't do it. Don't play that game. Spare us the sanctimonious tripe about honour and defending our country and all those other paper thin veils for propagating social dysfuntionality; we live in a cruel world, etc. That's all bullshit. As long as we're putting resources into dressing young men up in green and arming them with really sophisticated single purpose machines for hurting other human beings, we're simply projecting the same dysfunctional patterns into the future.

Put our fears aside. Noone is going to invade Canada. It was taken over long ago, anyway. Stop worshipping the flag, and all that tribalism.

And write the British Embassy and express in the strongest possible terms your contempt and dismay at the implications of the video.

Indicate that Tony Blair is a war criminal who should be tried and jailed for the rest of his wretched bloody life; and the cabinet that supported him.

Whenever you're in the company of Brits or Americans or the host of tinpot nations that follow their coattails, let them know your disgust too; let them know how you look down upon the actions of their government as of a piece with those of Nazi Germany, Imperial Britain, or any other nation that dominated others by military force.

Its the 21st century. Get with the program, already.

And no, its not human fucking nature anymore than slavery or capital punishment is. Its a barbaric prehistoric social pattern that has long since outlived its usefulness. I thought we were supposed to have figured that one out with the Great War, the war to end all wars, etc.

nuff said.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 30 November 2005 11:34 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We are all entitled to opinion. Mine is driven by experience. Not what I see on tv.

Frankly, human nature is ugly, either accept it, and be prepared, or don't and be a victim.

Come back, and tell me how rightous it is to stand aside and do nothing after digging up a mass grave filled with small corpses. Then tell me it would be proper to not prepare for war.

Jim Loney, 41, a Toronto community worker, and Harmeet Singh Sooden, 32, formerly of Montreal (two of the four recently kidnapped in Iraq) they put their money where their mouth is. They put their lives on the line in something that they truely beleive in. I do hope and pray that all four on that peace mission make it out ok, and come home... They should be offered a medal for what they are doing (not that they would ever accept such a thing).

Here, nothing but a bunch of moralistic naive nonsense.
...

Honest commentary on the video then... Here it is.

BULLET BALLISTICS 101- Bullet hits windshield, windshield spiderwebs (many visible lines and holes in windsheild, windshields a remade to do this, it is a safety feature). The spider webs caused by multiple hit from a machine gun burst would make a clear windsheild opaque.

Meaning, from what little we can make out, the passenger cabin is not being targetted (which is in keeping with the proper disabling of a vehicle, kill the engine, not the person driving (engine is a MUCH bigger target)).

Next, in the second last scene, we see the driver get out of the vehicle, the shooting has stopped. If they were shooting into the vehicle cabin, this would not be likely.

All scenes indicate a loss of power to the vehicle. Someone dies behind the wheel, especially traumatically (ie by bullet) they will tense up. Slamming a foot down on the gas peddle. (Which goes against the apparent loss of power seen in the scenes.)

All of the vehicles were accelerating hard on the vehicle convoy in question. One of them was even warned off using a smoke grenade thrown to the side of the road.

TERRORIST TACTICS 101- vehicle borne improvised explosives (car bombs) are big, and incredibly effective weapons. These are driven at convoys at extremely high rates of speed (the better to do more damage and maximize chances of car bomb getting to convoy) and IGNORE signs written in arabic on the backs of all coalition vehicles to "slow down, do not pass, or you will be fired upon".

Not enough detail in the videos to detail where exactly they were shooting into the cars. The most likely place would be the engine block in an attempt to get the engine to seize (causing rapid power loss, and preventing vehicle from getting to target). Shooting into the passenger cabin in no ways gaurantees the vehicle will stop or slow down before the target, and in head on like this, shooting tires in impossible.

The company could have very easily said all vehicles in question were car bombs, and easily brought out 100 security and terrorism "experts" to detail the above and say they were right. They did not. The government is investigating, and the company is investigating.

So, here the old adage is true... If you are a civilian criminal caught red handed, innocent until proven guilty. If you are in the military and happen to be in the same hemisphere as a crime, you are guilty until proven guilty.

There is a word I am looking for now... Starts with an "h".


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 November 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure. We can not be sure that anyone was killed. However, several of those shots show cars sliding of the road as if the driver had lost control of the vehicle. The implication is obvious.

I am sorry none of those vehicles where close enough to pose a threat. Your first point proves this through simple inference, if they weren't close enough to identify the condition of the driver then the cars were no where near effective radius of a potential blast.

The fact that the video was edited with "Train Arrives" speaks volumes about the people who compiled the footage.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 01 December 2005 12:07 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Sure. We can not be sure that anyone was killed. However, several of those shots show cars sliding of the road as if the driver had lost control of the vehicle. The implication is obvious.

I am sorry none of those vehicles where close enough to pose a threat. Your first point proves this through simple inference, if they weren't close enough to identify the condition of the driver then the cars were no where near effective radius of a potential blast.

The fact that the video was edited with "Train Arrives" speaks volumes about the people who compiled the footage.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


No one in their right mind would wait until a vehicle is close enough to become a threat considering some of the car bombs used in the past had several hundred pounds of explosives in them.

For instance, a simple hand grenade (M67 being the common American fragmentation grenade) has a LEATHAL radious of 18m. I hand grenade about the size of a baseball and only really holds a couple of ounces of high explosives.

The explosives being used int he car bombs are high explosives. The leathal blas area (ie where the impact of the blast wave would break bones, and stop hearts) would probably relatively small. The leathal fragmentation radious is huge when dealing with several hundred pounds of explosives in a big fragmenting metal container. It is not uncommon for these car bombs to have thousands of ball bearings and or nails, screws and other debris attached to the outside of the main bomb.

A larger bomb = more explosive power = equals greater range. The safe radious for a car bomb by the way is approx 1,800. 1.8 km. Much closer then those vehicles were.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 01 December 2005 12:10 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Reason:

quote:
Here, nothing but a bunch of moralistic naive nonsense.

Ah yes, those morals that always seem to get in the way of the military. Talk about naive, you are the most naive person I've think I've ever read on this site. How could you possibly believe any of the hogwash that you keep trying to sell.

Your innocence of rational thought certainly gives the lie to your user name.

Then there's this little gem:

quote:
The company could have very easily said all vehicles in question were car bombs, and easily brought out 100 security and terrorism "experts" to detail the above and say they were right. They did not. The government is investigating, and the company is investigating.

In fact the companies defence was that there was nothing in the videos that implicated Aegis. At least you should get your story straight.

War 'trophies' are a standard part of military procedure. They are even desired as a reasonable outlet for those who have been trained to kill. Every war has resulted in the same behaviour by soldiers, depsite the denials of those who've bought the lies.

And last but not least:

quote:
Frankly, human nature is ugly, either accept it, and be prepared, or don't and be a victim.

Human nature is definitely not 'ugly'. In the Korean war, the Pentagon found that not enough soldiers were firing their weapons. Apparently some felt if they didn't shoot, they wouldn't be shot at. Thus the military embarked on a program that would train soldiers to overcome their natural reluctance to kill another human.

In WW1 there were cases of fraternization between the troops of opposite sides. This had to be overcome by threats of firing squads.

Only the weak use the excuse of having to 'defend' ourselves by killing others. That is precisely the context in which the war in Iraq is being fought. If human nature was indeed 'ugly', the SU would have no problem signing up recruits. As it is, the only way they can keep the population on their side is to engage in all sorts of lies, deceptions, and massive propaganda.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 December 2005 12:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh please. Watch the video again, in one shot five or six cars drive by on the other side of the road, going the other way, well within blast range.

This is just gratuitous dumbfuckery. Anyone who has been a frat party with more than one dumb fuck can see how this thing gets going.

You are not doing any justice to any soldiers of merit, by trying to justify this or explain it.

They are complete fucking assholes who are asking for a fucking car bomb. Seriously, its shit like this that makes people load up their cars with explosives and start looking for targets of opportunity.

[ 01 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 01 December 2005 08:08 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

Human nature is definitely not 'ugly'. In the Korean war, the Pentagon found that not enough soldiers were firing their weapons. Apparently some felt if they didn't shoot, they wouldn't be shot at. Thus the military embarked on a program that would train soldiers to overcome their natural reluctance to kill another human.

In WW1 there were cases of fraternization between the troops of opposite sides. This had to be overcome by threats of firing squads.

Only the weak use the excuse of having to 'defend' ourselves by killing others. That is precisely the context in which the war in Iraq is being fought. If human nature was indeed 'ugly', the SU would have no problem signing up recruits. As it is, the only way they can keep the population on their side is to engage in all sorts of lies, deceptions, and massive propaganda.[/QB]


Your naiveity is match only by your boundless stupidity and ignorance. You have got to be the most idiotic fucking human being on the fucking planet.

SQuak polly wants a lefty cracker. You are the one posting lies by making the apparent claim that humans are inherintly good. That's something that was wiped from my mind when I was pulling the bodies of kids from a mass grave in Bosnia.

Be a moralistic coward. Talk talk talk. While you are talking, I will be the one standing inbetween the civilians and the bullies, and make no mistake, when you fail in conversing, I will pull the trigger.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 01 December 2005 08:12 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Oh please. Watch the video again, in one shot five or six cars drive by on the other side of the road, going the other way, well within blast range.

This is just gratuitous dumbfuckery. Anyone who has been a frat party with more than one dumb fuck can see how this thing gets going.

You are not doing any justice to any soldiers of merit, by trying to justify this or explain it.

They are complete fucking assholes who are asking for a fucking car bomb. Seriously, its shit like this that makes people load up their cars with explosives and start looking for targets of opportunity.

[ 01 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


If you were following Cueball, you would notice that I was suggesting what could be the case. You do not know the details, nor do I. Without knowing all the details, assuming guilt is the height of hypocrisy, especially when takeing into account the views of some here that people shouldnt go to jail for some of this societies most heinous crimes.

If this is a case of trigger happy wingnuts out of control, they should face a firing squad. Until they are proven guilty tho, I will not assume guilt. Having a little bit of knowledge about warfare and tactics, puts me in a position to see the possibilities of what maybe. SO I do not causually assume disgust and stomp my feet.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 01 December 2005 08:47 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:
Be a moralistic coward. Talk talk talk. While you are talking, I will be the one standing inbetween the civilians and the bullies, and make no mistake, when you fail in conversing, I will pull the trigger.

Dude, your last line doesn't quite separate you from the trigger happy wingnuts you're opposing against in your next post.
I'd rather see a moralistic coward trying to persuade a person, than I'd see an armed hero put a cap in someone because they "failed in conversing".
Don't get me wrong, I totally respect the work you've done (like in Bosnia) and the work done by other honourable soldiers.
But trying to defend this movie in this manner, is ludicrous. It's so obvious this is not standard procedure. I think it would be better to condemn the shooters (who seem to derive great pleasure from what they're doing) and keep these nutcases distanced from honourable soldiers like yourself....

[ 01 December 2005: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 01 December 2005 11:08 AM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

Your naiveity is match only by your boundless stupidity and ignorance. You have got to be the most idiotic fucking human being on the fucking planet.

SQuak polly wants a lefty cracker. You are the one posting lies by making the apparent claim that humans are inherintly good. That's something that was wiped from my mind when I was pulling the bodies of kids from a mass grave in Bosnia.

Be a moralistic coward. Talk talk talk. While you are talking, I will be the one standing inbetween the civilians and the bullies, and make no mistake, when you fail in conversing, I will pull the trigger.


Doesn't take much to get you to lose your cool, wonder what would happen if this was a war zone and you had a gun.

Give it a break and stop trying to justify your job that inevitably involves murder.

I lived in Montreal and remember Oka in the early '90's and all I can say is thank god there were t.v. cameras, mr. "I'm a hard ass military trainer".

The reason there ARE mass graves in the world is because of militaries.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 01 December 2005 12:10 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reason, obviously I disagree with your views but your preliminary analyses are helpful. I don't see much point in winding you up, the others are doing a fine job.

The quality of the video is such that its beyond my expertise to make confident pronouncements. But as Cueball puts it so eloquently, it looks a pretty clear case of dumbfuckery; suggestive enough to initiate serious investigation in England.

We do see at least one windshield hit; and a second where the car careens into a parked car violently, suggesting loss of driver control. Or he just shit himself from fear when the nice boys opened up on them.

Some of the vehicles were accelerating fast but if you've ever driven in that part of the world, a lot of them drive like arseholes.

Isn't it a tad reckless to open up on a speeding vehicle with an automatic weapon? I mean, shooting at a fastmoving vehicle to 'disable' it, a lot of the time, that's just going to end up as straightforward killing isn't it? At those sorts of speeds? So we're already into some serious shit, even if it is in 'selfdefence' against imagined banditos.

(Funnily, after a few months of occupation, the number of banditos is going up. Any connection to the fast and loose attitudes of the liberators?)

On a technical point, I don't see why any suicide bombers would be wasting their lives with these large several hundred k car bombs you speak of just to take out a carload of guntoting yobs. And if the vehicle from which the tape was shot was the rearmost part of a convoy, would a bomber be stupid enough to attempt to take out the convoy by rushing the obviously heavily armed rear? Wouldn't a simple tactic be to intercept at an intersection? Or draw fire with a second vehicle? One thing we know is the resistance include a lot of battle hardened veterans; I can't believe they'd be that dumb. But I can't really say.

Er, these guys didn't appear to be in the military, but private contractors. Much loved in Iraq, apparently, because of their good works there presumably.

Quote: So, here the old adage is true... If you are a civilian criminal caught red handed, innocent until proven guilty. If you are in the military and happen to be in the same hemisphere as a crime, you are guilty until proven guilty. End quote.

You're understandably sensitive. But consider the recent revelations from Fallujah, etc. People are a little jumpy around the military at the moment.

I can't accept that human nature is essentially ugly. Value neutral if anything, but at least, far more complex than simply dark. My own travels taught me quite the opposite, that people by nature are eager to please, to make a good impression, to share, etc; and certainly in many cultures such behaviours are ingrained attributes. Where social fabrics break down, then of course we will see opportunistic/sadistic/thoughtless/pathological behaviours.

You mention hauling bodies out of mass graves, but I suppose that is not a daily occurence even in your work; would you extrapolate from this to the whole of human nature?


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 December 2005 12:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

If you were following Cueball, you would notice that I was suggesting what could be the case. You do not know the details, nor do I. Without knowing all the details, assuming guilt is the height of hypocrisy, especially when takeing into account the views of some here that people shouldnt go to jail for some of this societies most heinous crimes.

If this is a case of trigger happy wingnuts out of control, they should face a firing squad. Until they are proven guilty tho, I will not assume guilt. Having a little bit of knowledge about warfare and tactics, puts me in a position to see the possibilities of what maybe. SO I do not causually assume disgust and stomp my feet.



Look dude, when I see footage of people shooting people. I say, that is more than likely real footage of real people, shooting real people. Simple.

I was not sitting on my thumbs watching the the Daniel Pearl execution video and thinking: Geeze is this for real? There must be some explanation for the odd behaviour of these nice religous fanatics. And I don't really have all the information, so I shouldn't presume they lopped his head off with a knife.

You are really streching this. Do you have to defend evey dumb fuck with gun and a uniform, some of these guys are just that: dumbfucks with guns and uniforms, and that is all.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 02 December 2005 12:26 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:


Look dude, when I see footage of people shooting people. I say, that is more than likely real footage of real people, shooting real people. Simple.

I was not sitting on my thumbs watching the the Daniel Pearl execution video and thinking: Geeze is this for real? There must be some explanation for the odd behaviour of these nice religous fanatics. And I don't really have all the information, so I shouldn't presume they lopped his head off with a knife.

You are really streching this. Do you have to defend evey dumb fuck with gun and a uniform, some of these guys are just that: dumbfucks with guns and uniforms, and that is all.


I am not a lawyer... However, my expereince gives me more information that would not allow me to simply convict without more information.

Do not get me wrong. This thing needs to be under a big fucking microscope, and these guys need to be dragged overd the coals. Until I have more information tho, I can not nor will I convict them. That is the role of the courts.

Once again, if they are guilty, they should be before a firing squad. At the very least spend the rest of their natural lives in jail.

There are dumbfucks in all walks of life, in uniform, behind the counter at Tim Hortons, some of them even lead the CPC. That part is inescapable, and this could very well be a bunch of dumbfucks.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 02 December 2005 12:32 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merowe:
Reason, obviously I disagree with your views but your preliminary analyses are helpful. I don't see much point in winding you up, the others are doing a fine job.

The quality of the video is such that its beyond my expertise to make confident pronouncements. But as Cueball puts it so eloquently, it looks a pretty clear case of dumbfuckery; suggestive enough to initiate serious investigation in England.

We do see at least one windshield hit; and a second where the car careens into a parked car violently, suggesting loss of driver control. Or he just shit himself from fear when the nice boys opened up on them.

Some of the vehicles were accelerating fast but if you've ever driven in that part of the world, a lot of them drive like arseholes.

Isn't it a tad reckless to open up on a speeding vehicle with an automatic weapon? I mean, shooting at a fastmoving vehicle to 'disable' it, a lot of the time, that's just going to end up as straightforward killing isn't it? At those sorts of speeds? So we're already into some serious shit, even if it is in 'selfdefence' against imagined banditos.

(Funnily, after a few months of occupation, the number of banditos is going up. Any connection to the fast and loose attitudes of the liberators?)

On a technical point, I don't see why any suicide bombers would be wasting their lives with these large several hundred k car bombs you speak of just to take out a carload of guntoting yobs. And if the vehicle from which the tape was shot was the rearmost part of a convoy, would a bomber be stupid enough to attempt to take out the convoy by rushing the obviously heavily armed rear? Wouldn't a simple tactic be to intercept at an intersection? Or draw fire with a second vehicle? One thing we know is the resistance include a lot of battle hardened veterans; I can't believe they'd be that dumb. But I can't really say.

Er, these guys didn't appear to be in the military, but private contractors. Much loved in Iraq, apparently, because of their good works there presumably.

Quote: So, here the old adage is true... If you are a civilian criminal caught red handed, innocent until proven guilty. If you are in the military and happen to be in the same hemisphere as a crime, you are guilty until proven guilty. End quote.

You're understandably sensitive. But consider the recent revelations from Fallujah, etc. People are a little jumpy around the military at the moment.

I can't accept that human nature is essentially ugly. Value neutral if anything, but at least, far more complex than simply dark. My own travels taught me quite the opposite, that people by nature are eager to please, to make a good impression, to share, etc; and certainly in many cultures such behaviours are ingrained attributes. Where social fabrics break down, then of course we will see opportunistic/sadistic/thoughtless/pathological behaviours.

You mention hauling bodies out of mass graves, but I suppose that is not a daily occurence even in your work; would you extrapolate from this to the whole of human nature?


It is true, not all people are evil. there are an awful lot of shades of gray out there, and many more people that give hope that some day there will not be a requirement for armies, police, or even crossing guards. That day is not today. I do feel that, though we will not see it in our life time, that we will get there, and we will have a utopia on earth. I am just not willing to sacrifice anyone to get there (anything on the other hand is fair game, if world peace would come at the cost of my left arm, I would saw it off right here right now).

You are right, it is not an every day expereince, and I am thankful for that. Just as thankful as the fact that most of the bodies were identified, and now properly laid to rest. Frankly, armed and willing intervention in Bosnia in '90-91 would have saved a lot more lives then was lost, and the region would not be the suffering mess it is today (alot of the Republic of Serpska, is still a pock marked mess).

EDIT TO ADD: I do not support the war in Iraq. I do not beleive that an immediate complete withdrawl is a good idea, but the coalition must start a drawdown of forces, and conduct a handover immediatly to the current Iraqi government, and trust Arab League nations (leave Syria, and Iran out of that one please). The Americans lied to us going in, and they have completely fucked up the occupation. Frankly, their forces are acting like a bunch of amatures recruited straight out of the worst frat houses in the US (I am talking more about the leadership then the soldiers them selves).

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 02 December 2005 12:38 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Maritimesea:

Doesn't take much to get you to lose your cool, wonder what would happen if this was a war zone and you had a gun.

Give it a break and stop trying to justify your job that inevitably involves murder.

I lived in Montreal and remember Oka in the early '90's and all I can say is thank god there were t.v. cameras, mr. "I'm a hard ass military trainer".

The reason there ARE mass graves in the world is because of militaries.



Am I supposed to qualify this supposition and ignorance with a response?

Ignorance and people like you put idiots like Bush in power. The day you figure that out, we will be alot closer to world peace. People like you protesting Somalia in Washington caused the US to pull a vetoe in the UN Security Council, causing the non-response to the GENOCIDE in Rawanda. 800,000 people dead. That was the price of failed negotiations. The negotiations failed because no consquence was laid out for non-complaince to UN resolutions... "If you kill, you will be a bad man, and people may frown upon you." Worked real fucking good if you ask me.

Come back when you have qa better understanding of human nature and world politics kid. Maybe then you would have something useful to contribute to the peace movement other then sounding like a punk kid who has smoked way too much pot.

EDIT TO ADD: As to the question of Oka, it was the bloody military that calmed that situation down after the SQ fucked it right up. The band were openly carrying illegal weapons for fuck sakes, and you would sit there and suggest that the military were the ones instigating? You may have lived in Montreal, but it is clear you were no where near Oka (frankly, back then, the CF did not care much about the media, if there was gonna be some sort of offense, it would have happened with or without the media, so you supposition is nothing more then BULSHIT)

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 02 December 2005 01:03 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Clog-boy:

Dude, your last line doesn't quite separate you from the trigger happy wingnuts you're opposing against in your next post.
I'd rather see a moralistic coward trying to persuade a person, than I'd see an armed hero put a cap in someone because they "failed in conversing".
Don't get me wrong, I totally respect the work you've done (like in Bosnia) and the work done by other honourable soldiers.
But trying to defend this movie in this manner, is ludicrous. It's so obvious this is not standard procedure. I think it would be better to condemn the shooters (who seem to derive great pleasure from what they're doing) and keep these nutcases distanced from honourable soldiers like yourself....

[ 01 December 2005: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]



Sorry man, I am in a debate with Cueball, and a pissing match with maestro... Too different arguements, to different tracks of thought.

The gist. Cueball got me back on track with the subject, and I am debating from the view point of the military with operational expereince (thankfully never fired a round). Iraq and Afghanistan have a history of car bombs used as weapons against convoys. My arguement is that these cars could very well be car bombs, or viewed as possible car bombs, and hence I would suggest waiting until more information becomes available (if ever) before yelling guilty.

maestro and others decided it was appropriate to drag the Canadian Forces (CF) into the fray casting us in a very unfavourable light. I am trying to be polite in this thread, but frankly, I am deeply offended. I have no problem with people saying war is bad and killing is bad. I can accept that what I do is a level of evil (one I hope to never fulfil). What I can not accept is the degree of persistant ignorance with regards to what it is I do that has been prevelant in some posts here and in other previous threads.

I do not go gleefully through the world hoping to kill people. I do not stomp on people out of joy.

I do put myself in between armed goups to try and negotiate the peace, and I do offer final consequences for those that choose to ignore my offers. I will put myself between a soldier/thug/terrorist and a civilian (regardless of that civilians nationality, religous back ground)...

Most countries in conflict are happy to have peacekeepers (either UN or NATO or now EU and AU) come into their countries. Why? It actually gives them an excuse to broker a peace (albeit sometimes to just regroup and then push another offensive al la Ertria vs Ethiopia). Peacekeepers are called on to keep the other armies in line... This is not a task unarmed persons can do, for many reasons, not the least of which being the ability to enforce the rules agreed apon.

Someone wants to say armies are bad? I actually support that, military and security forces exsist today because there is an element of human nature (not all posses it) that is evil, greedy. By definition, I train to kill in defence of my country. Killing is evil, and I accept that someday I may have to fulfil my job description. You can call me evil for saying and thinking that.

For me though, it is the choice of the lesser of evils. It is evil to kill, it is more evil to allow someone else to kill some one knowing you can do something about it. The CF is reactionary by nature... Meaning, we wait until we are attacked or one of our friends are attacked.

As long as the CF is guided by the politicians in Ottawa, it is highly doubtful this policy will change regardless of which party takes the PMO (not even the CPC would change this policy, it would be political suicide). By extension, everyone here has a say in CF policy, and can influence CF policy by way of the vote. 1 small voice in the wilderness might not be heard. Several million voices on ballet day will be heard, and guide CF policy for the years to come. (Heck, the Green Party even has a webpage discussion forum similar to Babble here where everyone gets a chance to put their two cents in on policy... An absolutly brilliant idea, I wonder if it will continue to work if they ever make mainstream?)


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 December 2005 08:32 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

I am not a lawyer... However, my expereince gives me more information that would not allow me to simply convict without more information.

Do not get me wrong. This thing needs to be under a big fucking microscope, and these guys need to be dragged overd the coals. Until I have more information tho, I can not nor will I convict them. That is the role of the courts.

Once again, if they are guilty, they should be before a firing squad. At the very least spend the rest of their natural lives in jail.

There are dumbfucks in all walks of life, in uniform, behind the counter at Tim Hortons, some of them even lead the CPC. That part is inescapable, and this could very well be a bunch of dumbfucks.


Yes it is inescapable. And that is why I don't doubt this is dumfuckery.

As for guilty until proved innocent no one convicted OBL or Mullah Omar, but you seem to AOK with blowing them up on the basis of prima facie evidence.

But I spose that's different...

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 02 December 2005 10:05 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is sort of a parable for the whole Iraq war. Reason finds it defensible to shoot up cars because they might be suicide bombers. Bush can shoot up Iraq for looking at him funny, even though he already had his foot on Iraq's neck. Reason, just listen to the men in the car, and tell me they're scared.

Reason, I disagree with you about the shootout; but not about the need for defense. My uncle Dick Cowling commanded the Airborne that Chretien disbanded. My family tree is loaded with military types. The VanDoo's have a name for the mercs in question: plugs.


From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 02 December 2005 05:03 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Yes it is inescapable. And that is why I don't doubt this is dumfuckery.

As for guilty until proved innocent no one convicted OBL or Mullah Omar, but you seem to AOK with blowing them up on the basis of prima facie evidence.

But I spose that's different...

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


Wrong paralel Cueball... They both convicted themselves by their own tv appearances admitting attrocities in the name of "god". I have been aware of OBL from a time long before 9/11, the man is a certifiable monster (albeit created by the idiot americans) without redemtion who is bent on destroying the "western" way of life. Make no mistake, OBL is not thinking defensively, he is think offensively, has been for decades.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 02 December 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nister:
This is sort of a parable for the whole Iraq war. Reason finds it defensible to shoot up cars because they might be suicide bombers. Bush can shoot up Iraq for looking at him funny, even though he already had his foot on Iraq's neck. Reason, just listen to the men in the car, and tell me they're scared.

Reason, I disagree with you about the shootout; but not about the need for defense. My uncle Dick Cowling commanded the Airborne that Chretien disbanded. My family tree is loaded with military types. The VanDoo's have a name for the mercs in question: plugs.


It is a misconception to think that soldiers behave scared in combat. We train hard to get around the fear by making everything we do a drill. We only sound scared if there is a lull, or the crisis event finishes, otherwise there is no time to think about emotions.

There are just too many unknowns to me to convict... But then I have years of military expereince to back that up. I see things differently. There is undeniable requirement for a deep investigation of these collective of events, but until said investigation is complete, I will not convict.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 02 December 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Reason:

quote:
Be a moralistic coward. Talk talk talk. While you are talking, I will be the one standing in between the civilians and the bullies, and make no mistake, when you fail in conversing, I will pull the trigger.

If that is indeed the case, why aren't you standing between the Iraqi people and the US military?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 02 December 2005 11:04 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My uncle Jack told me about the Italian frogmen who attached limpets to his ship before they were captured. He was plenty scared. So were the frogmen; they were aboard. So were all the seamen who jumped over the side, against orders. Jack said the smell of shit and vomit was overwhelming. Reason, these were seasoned sailors. You talk of drills and preparation as though these mercs were soldiers; these guys don't fit that bill.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 03 December 2005 12:07 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Be a moralistic coward. Talk talk talk. While you are talking, I will be the one standing inbetween the civilians and the bullies, and make no mistake, when you fail in conversing, I will pull the trigger.

quote:
"You want me on that wall! You need me on that wall!"

Bwahhhaaahhhaaaa! Man, do you stand in front of a mirror and recite that speech in your best Jack Nicholson? Christ, and you wonder why people think the military is filled with the guys who as kids got their kicks sticking firecrackers into frogs. A real tough guy.

Like that infanteer who used to live upstairs from me, who'd watch Full Metal Jacket while wearing his helmet and cradling a locked and loaded AR-15 on his lap, reciting the lines along with the movie. Needless to say, I wasn't about to ask him to turn his stereo down.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nister:
My uncle Jack told me about the Italian frogmen who attached limpets to his ship before they were captured. He was plenty scared. So were the frogmen; they were aboard. So were all the seamen who jumped over the side, against orders. Jack said the smell of shit and vomit was overwhelming. Reason, these were seasoned sailors. You talk of drills and preparation as though these mercs were soldiers; these guys don't fit that bill.

Most of the contractors in Iraq are SoF guys... They do fit the bill. Blackwaters for instance recruits exclusively from SOF (Special Operations Forces).


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 01:39 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:
From Reason:

If that is indeed the case, why aren't you standing between the Iraqi people and the US military?


A word that you just can not understand. Duty. I do not hop to for you. I hop to for the government of Canada.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 01:41 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:

Bwahhhaaahhhaaaa! Man, do you stand in front of a mirror and recite that speech in your best Jack Nicholson? Christ, and you wonder why people think the military is filled with the guys who as kids got their kicks sticking firecrackers into frogs. A real tough guy.

Like that infanteer who used to live upstairs from me, who'd watch Full Metal Jacket while wearing his helmet and cradling a locked and loaded AR-15 on his lap, reciting the lines along with the movie. Needless to say, I wasn't about to ask him to turn his stereo down.


Eh, well, it is the reality now isn't it? I'm the one who actually goes to far away places and follows through with my beleifs whilst idiots like you and maestro masterbate to the body count.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 03 December 2005 02:09 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:
Wrong paralel Cueball... They both convicted themselves by their own tv appearances admitting attrocities in the name of "god". I have been aware of OBL from a time long before 9/11, the man is a certifiable monster (albeit created by the idiot americans) without redemtion who is bent on destroying the "western" way of life. Make no mistake, OBL is not thinking defensively, he is think offensively, has been for decades.

The National Post commissioned Alan Dershowitz to present the case against Osama Bin Laden in 9/11.

That was at a time when questions were beginning to be asked.

In the end, Dershowitz said there was not enough evidence to convict Bin Laden of involvement.

I also remember Henry Kissinger being interviewed the day following 9/11 and he was quite clear that he didn't believe Bin Laden had an organization capable of carrying 9/11 out.

Interestingly, later when Kissinger was proposed as the head of the 'Truth Commission' , he backed out, ostensibly becasue he would have to provide a list of his clients, and he didn't want to.

However, it's equally likely he refused the assignment because he himself didn't believe Bin Laden was responsible!

Now, if you have some information that these two characters (neither of which could in any way be considered friends of Bin Laden) don't have, perhaps you could tell the authorities about it.

As it is, you're just spouting the official line without giving it a moment's thought. Which doesn't surprise me, because that's what you've been doing throughout this thread. Calling dead babies down on us...give me a break. Millions of babies die every year as a direct result of the economic and military policies of the the G8 nations. You're so worried about dead babies, you should be organizing the war against the G8.

By the way, the Shidane Arone story isn't the only black mark on the Canadian military. There was also the incident when a 'trophy' picture appeared on the front pages of the nations newspapers showing Canadian troops hustling Afghani men in hoods and boiler suits on their way to US incarceration. What a despicable bunch of scum, kneeling to kiss the ass of the US military. Tell me they didn't know what they did was wrong.

And speaking of Arone, what was the outcome of that case? Were any superior officers ever sent to prison? So far as I know, the only person to get jail time was Kyle Brown, the guy who came forward with the information about Shidane Arone's torture and death. A death that apparently was heard throughout the Canadian military camp on the night that it happened. Not one Canadian soldier had the guts to intervene.

Must have all been trained by Reason.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 03 December 2005 08:05 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reason, to summarize: the guys in the car shooting up traffic in both directions were cool, well trained professionals, who just happened upon the largest convention of suicide bombers ever, and took them out. At this rate, the troops can be home by Xmas..just leave these guys on the job.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 December 2005 08:30 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Read Reason's posts. He so full of contradictions it isn't funny. Actually, this whole derailment is seriously making my stomach upset. First he fights for Canadians, then for the Canadian government. First he's outraged by the actions of the mercenary thugs in the video, then he's making excuses for them. First he says he doesn't train to kill, then he posts about how he's trained to kill and is proud of that fact.

Then we're supposed to kiss his ass after that extremely violent and threatening part of his post he made to maestro (or Cueball), simply because he's in the military? That part had me scared and feeling something was terribly wrong when I read it, and it wasn't directed at me.

quote:
Be a moralistic coward. Talk talk talk. While you are talking, I will be the one standing inbetween the civilians and the bullies, and make no mistake, when you fail in conversing, I will pull the trigger.

My dad was in the military (Korean War) and he refuses to talk about it. His face is horrible to look at when I have ever asked him about it. He isn't proud of what happened there. Wise man, my dad.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 03:29 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
Read Reason's posts. He so full of contradictions it isn't funny. Actually, this whole derailment is seriously making my stomach upset. First he fights for Canadians, then for the Canadian government. First he's outraged by the actions of the mercenary thugs in the video, then he's making excuses for them. First he says he doesn't train to kill, then he posts about how he's trained to kill and is proud of that fact.

Then we're supposed to kiss his ass after that extremely violent and threatening part of his post he made to maestro (or Cueball), simply because he's in the military? That part had me scared and feeling something was terribly wrong when I read it, and it wasn't directed at me.

My dad was in the military (Korean War) and he refuses to talk about it. His face is horrible to look at when I have ever asked him about it. He isn't proud of what happened there. Wise man, my dad.


Navelgazer, if you were following, you would know these are two seperate arguements. I know such things are difficult for you, but hey... Perhaps you could at least try to keep up eh?


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 03:35 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nister:
Reason, to summarize: the guys in the car shooting up traffic in both directions were cool, well trained professionals, who just happened upon the largest convention of suicide bombers ever, and took them out. At this rate, the troops can be home by Xmas..just leave these guys on the job.


At what point did I suggest any of the above? I am not reacting emotionally (with exception of the blinding idiots who are flocking to this thread like maestro, Jingo, and now navelgazer), to the event portrayed. My background allows for me to see and understand things which someone who does not have a military back ground would not. I am only suggesting that this thing needs to be investigated further, and deeply. If I was argueing the way everyone else here thinks I am argueing (too fucking bad no one bothered to ask, must be more fun to assume), I would have said not guilty, these are good boys blah blah blah.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 December 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

A word that you just can not understand. Duty. I do not hop to for you. I hop to for the government of Canada.


Oh, dear. We have a serious problem here.

The citizens of Canada ARE the government of Canada. There IS no government separate from the citizens. Is it true that the civilian authority is not being explained clearly enough and in enough nuance to our military?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok maestro, it is fucking clear your purpose is not to discuss the thread. You have derailed this thread and me with your half baked and bullshit opinion. It has been a long fucking time, since I have seen anyone that approaches the level of bigotry, arrogance, and ignorance...

Your open hatred is well and good. Don't worry, you can continue to feel this way as there are people who defend your right to be an asshat. Even here, you can be a bigot, just as long as you are bigotted against authority or christians.

You bring up points. Points which you clearly have not bothered to research. Points on which there are lots of information out there. If you wish to honestly debate these points, start a new thread. However, on this subject, you are not willing to debate. Your absolute contempt, and bigotry towards me has raised my anger far enough.

I would suggest you look in a mirror maestro... A slightly different upbringing, and you would easily be a klans man, or a neo nazi... Ignorance is the most contemptable trait a human being could display... You have displyed enough of that.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 03:45 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Oh, dear. We have a serious problem here.

The citizens of Canada ARE the government of Canada. There IS no government separate from the citizens. Is it true that the civilian authority is not being explained clearly enough and in enough nuance to our military?


When you take that quote away from the garabage that it was a response to, I suppose you can assume anything you bloody well want.

There is nothing we understand more then our responsibility and duty to the citizens of Canada, and to have some half wit like maestro suggest I shirk my duty and responsibiluity is about as insulting as the rest of the way he has persisted in baiting me in this thread.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 03 December 2005 03:51 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Oh, dear. We have a serious problem here.

The citizens of Canada ARE the government of Canada.


You can say that again, Skdadl. Or at least up to the point when we have a rogue, break-away government which is represented by two old line parties no matter which way it gets sliced. Who's running the show ?. Is Paul legion ?. They're all the same party accepting graft and kick-back for jobs well-done... except for that third party which has never been propped-up by the power elite. What's their names ?. Oh ya, NDP


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 04:04 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

You can say that again, Skdadl. Or at least up to the point when we have a rogue, break-away government which is represented by two old line parties no matter which way it gets sliced. Who's running the show ?. Is Paul legion ?. They're all the same party accepting graft and kick-back for jobs well-done... except for that third party which has never been propped-up by the power elite. What's their names ?. Oh ya, NDP


The NDP, I feel strongly would do well on question of foreign affairs. The only sticking point I have with them on defence policy is linking peacekeeping missions to the UN. The UN has failed miserably, and needs to be seriously reformed, failing that, our forces should be kept here at home similar to the Swiss.

My arguement against maestro is that he seems to think he has enough authority to give orders to the CF. He alone does not. It takes a colelctive voice, by way of the vote and politicians, not a lone citizen on the street.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 December 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

Wrong paralel Cueball... They both convicted themselves by their own tv appearances admitting attrocities in the name of "god". I have been aware of OBL from a time long before 9/11, the man is a certifiable monster (albeit created by the idiot americans) without redemtion who is bent on destroying the "western" way of life. Make no mistake, OBL is not thinking defensively, he is think offensively, has been for decades.


There is some evidence, which suggests that OBL was involved in 9/11. The best is a grainy home video of OBL talking about the events as they happened. In it he is quoted as saying, "I didn't think the towers would fall" or something like that. (There are alternate translations.) However, this was an event that was happening over a period of time, and in fact I thought exactly the same thing, as the events were going forward.

I thought, this and I might have said: "Wow! I didn't expect the towers to fall." I thought this because I was under the impression that the towers were plane proof. So the statement might be a present tense reference to the past, but only in the time frame considered from the moment that the first plane hit, and the towers collapsed.

Perhaps something else came out, since then, I dunnno, I don't read evey single bulletin.

My explanation above is exactly the kind of "technical legalizing," which you are engaging in here in defence of these mercenaries.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

There is some evidence, which suggests that OBL was involved in 9/11. The best is a grainy home video of OBL talking about the events as they happened. In it he is quoted as saying, "I didn't think the towers would fall" or something like that. (There are alternate translations.) However, this was an event that was happening over a period of time, and in fact I thought exactly the same thing, as the events were going forward.

I thought, this and I might have said: "Wow! I didn't expect the towers to fall." I thought this because I was under the impression that the towers were plane proof. So the statement might be a present tense reference to the past, but only in the time frame considered from the moment that the first plane hit, and the towers collapsed.

Perhaps something else came out, since then, I dunnno, I don't read evey single bulletin.

My explanation above is exactly the kind of "technical legalizing," which you are engaging in here in defence of these mercenaries.



I do not have enough information to eith convict nor defend the individuals in the video. Paterns of sucide car bombers are known to those in theatre, and intel, we we do not have access to (nor will we ever get access to) would also drive any investigation.

Did they shoot? Yes. They shot at what at first glance appears to be civilian vehicles.

Knowns. Terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have used civilian vehicles numerous times as car bombs against coalition forces and civilian agencies. These cars were reported to be driving in patterns which stand out from the local population (faster and more reckless then the average driver in a countries were driver's licenses are found in cracker jack boxes).

Unknowns. The intel the pers involved had. Did someone warn the coalition forces that a red four door car will attack a convoy?

On the balance of probablities, I argue that this must be investigated further, and in great detail. If it turns out these individuals are guilty of what we perceive to be crimes against humanity here, then they must stand trial as such.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 December 2005 05:37 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not quite sure how someone as clearly deraged as "Reason" is allowed to be so abusive to everyone who dare not take his apparent 'expert' opinion of the war.

This guy is a frothing at the mouth bully. You dude, are the one who is seriously deranged, wromg-headed, naive and an ignorant asshat (to use your own words). You continue to prove, with your own posts, just how much we have to fear from people who are 'protecting' us. You seriously scare me.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
I'm not quite sure how someone as clearly deraged as "Reason" is allowed to be so abusive to everyone who dare not take his apparent 'expert' opinion of the war.

This guy is a frothing at the mouth bully. You dude, are the one who is seriously deranged, wromg-headed, naive and an ignorant asshat (to use your own words). You continue to prove, with your own posts, just how much we have to fear from people who are 'protecting' us. You seriously scare me.


I know, that you being as contextually challenged as you are, you are having difficulty fololowing the two completely different arguements I am invovleved, and you have choosen to not bother to actually read either one.

In one, Cueball and I are bouncing back and forth on topic beleive it or not. I introduced the fact that not all facts are known in the case, and that there must be a demand for an investigation. In any case asumming guilt is wrong headed... (I could bring up another thread to demonstrate the point, but with you it would be an exercise in futility).

In the other case with maestro he attacked the CF off topic completely using falsehood, supposition and opinion to base his arguements on something I very strongly beleive in. Go back in the thread, and read maestro's posts. You tell me who started with the belligerance.

Stargazer, you have demonstrated an unwillingess to follow through, nor even attempt to understand were I am coming from. I do try to follow your line of thought, and on occasion have even found you to be thoughtful and succinct. On the subject of crime and punishment, and now it appears the military in general, I get the picture that you beleive that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. Is this the case?

Oh, and it is I acting the bully? Wake up Stargazer, re-read the thread, it is maestro who has been on the offensive, not I.

[ 03 December 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 December 2005 05:56 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Sorry "Reason", not going to work.

Ta ta da da da do! You just can't see it but that's okay.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 03 December 2005 06:07 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:

Sorry "Reason", not going to work.

Ta ta da da da do! You just can't see it but that's okay.


Yes, because, heaven forbid you actually discover that you are wrong (not saying I am right).

I have seen in other threads were people defended someone who feels strongly about a subject, lets say SSM. How is this different? I am in the military, and I have been living, and fully invovled in it to the point were it defines who I am. I didn't really choose this as much as I am it. Now, to put it into context, someone comes along, and starts spewing lies, half truths, and supposition and opinion... How is my defence against this any different then someone else coming into a different thread and saying gays shouldn't marry? (I know I lost some on that one, so those that dared to go I, I strongly support SSM, and I do not support questioning on the subject)

The subject that maestro is driving (off topic at that) directly reflects who I am and what I am. You have in the past choosen to take me out of context, as you are doing so deliberatly here. By doing so you misrepresent what I am trying to say, and in this case, maestro and now you are leaving me on the defensive.

If you wish to remain ignorant, why do you participate? Do you enjoy inflicting pain on others as you are doing here?


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 December 2005 07:21 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Inflicting pain on you? No actually, I don't enjoy inflicting pain on anyone. Not even you.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 03 December 2005 10:19 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In the other case with maestro he attacked the CF off topic completely using falsehood, supposition and opinion to base his arguements on something I very strongly beleive in.

Well, that's interesting. I'd appreciate you pointing out the falsehood.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 03 December 2005 10:40 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:
I know, that you being as contextually challenged as you are, you are having difficulty fololowing the two completely different arguements I am invovleved, and you have choosen to not bother to actually read either one.

In one, Cueball and I are bouncing back and forth on topic beleive it or not. I introduced the fact that not all facts are known in the case, and that there must be a demand for an investigation. In any case asumming guilt is wrong headed... (I could bring up another thread to demonstrate the point, but with you it would be an exercise in futility).

In the other case with maestro he attacked the CF off topic completely using falsehood, supposition and opinion to base his arguements on something I very strongly beleive in. Go back in the thread, and read maestro's posts. You tell me who started with the belligerance.

Stargazer, you have demonstrated an unwillingess to follow through, nor even attempt to understand were I am coming from. I do try to follow your line of thought, and on occasion have even found you to be thoughtful and succinct. On the subject of crime and punishment, and now it appears the military in general, I get the picture that you beleive that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. Is this the case?

Oh, and it is I acting the bully? Wake up Stargazer, re-read the thread, it is maestro who has been on the offensive, not I.

[ 03 December 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]


Speaking of falsehoods, there's one now - "In the other case with maestro he attacked the CF off topic completely using falsehood,"

Number one, it was certainly not off topic. The topic is trophy pictures, of which the pictures taken by Kyle Brown of Clayton Matchee holding Shidane Arone are a shining example.

In any case, that post was prior to any posting by Reason, and was anything but belligerent. I merely pointed out that 'trophy pictues' seems to be a normal part of the military process.

How there is even a debate over this after Abu Ghraib is beyond me. There is not a single war ever been fought where the soldiers didn't 'count coup'.

There is no supposition in the original post either, as the quote was from a standard source, the facts of which easily cross-referenced.

And that was only a taste, there's more. This is from the Canadian Encyclopaedia:

quote:
Other areas of concern regarding the Somalia mission were identified by a military board of inquiry in September, 1993. It noted that a rogue element within 2 Commando had posed a direct challenge to authority, yet was not properly disciplined.

Some soldiers had even formed what the report described as a "wall of silence" to protect each other from punishment after some had torched a sergeant’s car and set off explosives in a soldier’s club at Petawawa and in nearby Algonquin Park in 1992. The group called themselves the "Rebels," and their use of the Confederate flag was described in the report as "an open symbol of defiance of authority."

The report was critical of the fact that the man who had identified the problems - Lt.-Col. Paul Morneault - was removed as the regiment’s commander before the Somalia mission for what has since been described by superiors as training inadequacies.

Questions about his removal, as well as activities within the Airborne, reach into the highest levels of the military. The key men in the decisions to fire Morneault and send the Airborne to Somalia, Maj.-Gen. Lewis Mackenzie, now retired, and Maj.-Gen. Ernest Beno, will likely face some tough questions at the impending inquiry.

And some critics even point to Gen. de Chastelain - a former commander of the Patricias and, until now, a strong supporter of the Airborne - who they say was likely informed of the disciplinary problems. Asked if the inquiry should look at problems extending beyond the Airborne, one senior officer replied: "Absolutely."


Uh huh, and when they did, the inquiry was shut down.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9504

posted 03 December 2005 11:56 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Originally posted by maestro:
Apparently this sort of behaviour is a common part of being a soldier, which doesn't surprise me.

In order to get someone to kill someone else - or be prepared to kill someone else - the 'enemy' has to be dehumanized.


To which I replied.

quote:

Originally posted by Reason:
As you choose an incident involving members of the CF (Airborne to be exact), I can only assume that you beleive this as being true of today's CF... To this, I say the generalisation is absolutely false. This sort of behaviour is abhorent, and not the way we train. FULL STOP.

And your response is.

quote:

Originally posted by maestro:

You train people to be prepared to kill others. FULL STOP.

Don't give me the standard whine about how wonderful soldiers are, their honour, and so on. It's all just a pile of crap handed out by those who are afraid to face what it is they really do.


Yes, your understanding of what it is and train to do is so complete. If you missed it, I am being sarcastic. But then there is more in that one post isn't there.

quote:

Originall posted by maestro:
I'm am utterly sick of the justifications - heard over and over again - for the conduct of the military, our military, the US military, the UK military, the French military.

They exist to terrorize the world into submission, nothing else. Those who participate in that terror are criminals, nothing less.

If there is any justice in this universe, those militarty sycophants and apologists will spend a an eternity revisiting their past in utter agony.


How benign of you. In case you haven't figured out this is where I am pegging you for falsehood here. It is well and good to wish peace for the planet. Hell wish all weapons and greed away, and some day it will be true. That day is not today, and your naivetity and feigned superiority on the subject will only get people killed out of turn. The genocide in Rawanda happened because people like you had more of a voice after Somalia (I am speaking as to the American failure at Moghedishu, which cause the Americans to vetoe armed intervention in Rawanda which would have saved more lives then was lost).

Let's see were else you flonder.

quote:

Originally posted by maestro:
You have accepted the lies whole hog, yet there is still a tiny voice which reminds you that it is hogwash, and so you must rationalize you behaviour by inventing excuses for what the military does.

Forget it. You will never be able to reconcile the mutually exclusive requirements of your duty as a human being with your duty as a part of a machine that uses terror to enforce the subjection of those who have no defence against it.

You have offered me the protection of your military machine...I don't want it, and never asked for it. And don't bother wasting your rationalizations on me. I was brought up by one of the great rationalizers of all time.

I've heard every excuse you can imagine, many times over.


I accept the reality of man, and it has been reinforced in me by what I have seen. When diplomacy fails, people die. People died in Bosnia who did not need to die. Rawanda. Ethiopia. Sudan. The list is fucking endless, and all you can do is sit at your computer and flog your moral contempt at people who are willing to actually do something. What do you think peacekeeping is?

Oh, and I do find it interesting that you never addressed my question to you... Are you a pacificst? Would you never raise a hand in defence of yourself or others?

What else is there?

quote:

Originally posted by maestro:
Ah yes, those morals that always seem to get in the way of the military. Talk about naive, you are the most naive person I've think I've ever read on this site. How could you possibly believe any of the hogwash that you keep trying to sell.

Your innocence of rational thought certainly gives the lie to your user name.


What lies are those? That weapons do exsist in the world, and there are those who would use them to hurt, kill and subjugate others. This has been demonstrated throughout history. Is it a bunch of lies that this happens? I can take you to Bosnia and let you speak to a bunch of widows, parents who lost their kids, and wounded people... But of course, they would not take kindly to your take on things.

What else is there?

quote:

Originally posted by maestro:
War 'trophies' are a standard part of military procedure. They are even desired as a reasonable outlet for those who have been trained to kill. Every war has resulted in the same behaviour by soldiers, depsite the denials of those who've bought the lies.


But I covered this above. They are not. In fact it is a crime to take such "trophies at least in the CF. You, who clearly has never spent 1 day in uniform are claiming to make an informed statement such as the above. I as someone who has for the entirety of my adult life worn a uniform tell you this is not the case. You response is scorn, insult, and more bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by maestro:
Only the weak use the excuse of having to 'defend' ourselves by killing others. That is precisely the context in which the war in Iraq is being fought. If human nature was indeed 'ugly', the SU would have no problem signing up recruits. As it is, the only way they can keep the population on their side is to engage in all sorts of lies, deceptions, and massive propaganda.


So, knowing what we know now about WW2. I guess you beleive that it was wrong for the Allies to declare war on Nazi germany? I guess your reasoning is sound. If there was no jews on the planet, how could there be "anti-semitism"? On the plus side, I am straight, catholic *(non-practicing) blond haired and blued eyed, so I would be safe under Nazi rule. Would you?

You are attacking something that is very much a part of me. You are doing so by opushing what your beliefs of me on me, and saying "you are a bad boy"... Well, based on your conduct here, if I am a bad boy, I intend to stay that way.

Someday, it would be nice to see all weapons have been destroyed, and that greed is no longer a factor on that planet. Until that day comes, people like you maestro, put far more people in danger then I could ever hope to... I seem to remember from history class, that there was a British Prime Minister who thought much as you do. A guy by the name of Neville.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9504

posted 03 December 2005 11:58 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

Uh huh, and when they did, the inquiry was shut down.


And who was it that shut down the inquiry? I can tell you the military was begging for it to stay open to the conclusion. Too damned bad... Go on with your delusions tho... It's ok.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 04 December 2005 06:24 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A second contractor, called Triple Canopy, is now being implicated in the incidents, as well as a few more.

Here, in memos from the company, they are described as blowing off Iraqis' heads, firing hundreds of rounds at 'erratic' vehicles and inflicting 'contact wounds' upon victims' faces, i.e., shooting them with the gun barrel against the skin.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 December 2005 07:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone did that last to a friend of mine.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9504

posted 04 December 2005 12:22 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:
A second contractor, called Triple Canopy, is now being implicated in the incidents, as well as a few more.

Here, in memos from the company, they are described as blowing off Iraqis' heads, firing hundreds of rounds at 'erratic' vehicles and inflicting 'contact wounds' upon victims' faces, i.e., shooting them with the gun barrel against the skin.



Beleive it or not, I loathe "contractors" as much, if not more then you guys. They have no sense of duty, which makes them dangerous to everyone around them, not just the perceived enemy.

The actions described above by Tape are horrorific, and the do break several laws... Including the laws of most western countries, and the Geneva Conventions.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 04 December 2005 12:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread. Please feel free to continue this important story in a new thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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